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The dangers of non apostolic churches
Has anyone here read the book : Comparative Theology?
It discusses the differences between us and evangelical/protestant christians. After reading it, I was quite impressed with its content. Its a great book. His Holiness really understands the underlying issues that these people have problems with concerning our faith. However, after a long period meditating upon its content, I cannot help but come to the conclusion that if what is in this book is true, then protestants are not saved.
They cannot be saved as they do not have sacraments. They do not believe in the requirements of baptism as a pre-requisite for salvation.
This is no laughing or light matter.
I do believe, although we are divided from the RC, the EO and the WO Churches, I do believe that they are saved, simply because they are apostolic and are churches that uphold the sacraments.
What worries me is that they are evangelising their nonsense that baptism is NOT necessary for salvation so much that many RC's are ending up as protestants. I think we really need to evangelise strongly the requirements for baptism for salvation.
This is very serious. If the Coptic CHurch has suffered persecution, then the worst thing is protestantism. This is by far the greatest threat to our Church.
It discusses the differences between us and evangelical/protestant christians. After reading it, I was quite impressed with its content. Its a great book. His Holiness really understands the underlying issues that these people have problems with concerning our faith. However, after a long period meditating upon its content, I cannot help but come to the conclusion that if what is in this book is true, then protestants are not saved.
They cannot be saved as they do not have sacraments. They do not believe in the requirements of baptism as a pre-requisite for salvation.
This is no laughing or light matter.
I do believe, although we are divided from the RC, the EO and the WO Churches, I do believe that they are saved, simply because they are apostolic and are churches that uphold the sacraments.
What worries me is that they are evangelising their nonsense that baptism is NOT necessary for salvation so much that many RC's are ending up as protestants. I think we really need to evangelise strongly the requirements for baptism for salvation.
This is very serious. If the Coptic CHurch has suffered persecution, then the worst thing is protestantism. This is by far the greatest threat to our Church.
Comments
It is not the one that can kill the body you have to worry about. It is the one that corrupts the soul.
It took you that long to figure out. The proselytizing that happens is tremendous in Egypt.
It is not the one that can kill the body you have to worry about. It is the one that corrupts the soul.
Have you actually read the importance of baptism? This is critical.
Yes, it took me that long. These people are really a disaster. Boy!! Was I naive!!!!
And their ENTIRE theology is NOTHING MORE than "Feel Good" Popular Psychology
our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ said 'it is by this that all men will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another'.
saint paul says in his first letter to the corinthians 'even if i possess all knowledge ... give my body to be burnt ... but have not love, i am as a sounding gong or a crashing cymbal'.
i am one of the 1st to acknowledge the vital importance of the sacraments, and i made a deliberate decision after careful consideration to become orthodox because of the correct theology, the sacraments and the beauty of orthodox worship. however we should be careful not to be drawn into sweeping generalisations concerning things which are rightly considered to contain some element of mystery.
where there is damage from non-orthodox teaching entering the church, it is better to stress the correctness of our teaching. if our defense is merely to criticise, we are missing the point of rightly guarding the word of truth.
THey believe that baptism is a work, and we are not saved by works. How foolish is that? How is it they understand things like this!???
Look:
(5) Baptism is dying with the Lord Jesus Christ and
rising with Him
The Holy Bible says: "For the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23). The way of salvation began by death: the Lord Jesus Christ died for us. It is necessary to die with the Lord Jesus Christ or at least to resemble Him in His death as the Apostle says: "...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death"
(Phil.3: 10). This is achieved in baptism. How?
The Apostle says: "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death" (Rom.6: 3,4). And he continues to confirm this expression by saying: "...we died with Him... we were buried with Him... we have been united together in the likeness of His death... our old man was crucified with Him." Confirming the same meaning, the Apostle also says in his Epistle to the Colossians: "...buried with Him in baptism" (Col.2: 12).
=====================
This is ALL from scripture, yet they ignore all this, and the entire gospels that state clearly unless one is baptised of WATER and SPIRIT he cannot enter the kingdom.
So, what scares me the most is that they are adament in their ignorance and leading everyone else into perdition!!!!!
So, what other spiritual teachings do they tell us that sounds good, yet its application will lead us into perdition!! THey are NOTHING more than feel good psychology. It MUST be made clear.
And my point is this:
The book: COMPARATIVE THEOLOGY needs to go out to every single COPTIC christian on the face of the earth to warn them!!!!
I also agree with mabsoota's point to a certain extent - but although not all Protestant churches are without sacrament, a great deal of them ARE without sacrament.
pray for me
joe
There are a great many deficiencies in the teaching of the protestant churches, but a great many protestants DO have sacraments and do believe that baptism is important. There are protestants who believe and teach that baptism is necessary to salvation.
I think that it is also necessary to distinguish our critical views of protestantism in regard to those who seek to proselytise our Orthodox faithful, and our open-hearted and generous view of protestants themselves when we view them as the object of God's love and of our own mission activity.
It is also necessary to consider that a catechumen has not been baptised. Indeed tomorrow night I will be praying the prayers of making a catechumen over two enquirers in my own church. I would not at all consider that they are devoid of all grace and outside of all possibility of salvation when in fact their marking this significant step in their pilgrimage clearly shows that God is at work in their lives and is saving them. I would not want to say that a catechumen is not saved because he/she has not been baptised. Indeed, as mabsoota says, I do not believe we should be asking that question at all, but asking rather what we should be doing to help others understand the riches of our Orthodox Faith.
Protestantism is defective, but protestants are not generally the enemy, except in particular circumstances where they are seeking to persuade people to abandon Orthodoxy. But even then we must ask why do they not understand our Orthodox faith - is it because we have failed to explain it? Is it because we have failed to live it?
I would suggest that in regard to those who are seeking to confuse our own faithful we need to be clear in our teaching about their errors (and lumping all protestants together as if they believed the same thing is not really fair or helpful) and resist their efforts in love and truth. It is necessary to have a clear understanding of our own Orthodox Faith to be able to properly resist the errors of Protestantism, and build on the truths which remain in some/many areas of Protestantism.
When we consider protestants as those who are loved by God and are lacking in the fulness of the knowledge of and experience of God then we need to be generous, open-hearted, bearing patiently in love with many questions and misapprehensions. We should not make all protestants our enemy. They are generally the subjects of the teaching they have themselves received, and almost always have no knowledge of our Orthodox faith because we have not sought to share it.
All of the new people coming in to my church are protestants. All of them have a great faith in Christ. This faith is not yet complete, but it is not for me to say that it is not a true and living faith. They all need to become fully Orthodox - as we all do - but I am not sure (and I mean I am not sure) that they must be immediately baptised to have any relationship with God because the Church has never taught that we must baptise people immediately they show any interest. On the contrary we know that people would attend the first part of the liturgy, then become catechumens and then be baptised. We would surely have insisted on baptising people and then teaching them if there was an absolute need for baptism in all cases. Indeed the church has tried to understand this mystery of baptism being necessary and not alwatys necessary by considering that there is a baptism of blood, and a baptism of desire.
I would not agree with you that their ENTIRE theology is NOTHING MORE than "Feel Good" Popular Psychology. I would suggest that you do not have anywhere near a comprehensive enough understanding of protestantism to be able to say that. There are certainly elements of that. But there are elements of great seriousness in faith as well. Indeed a great many protestants are seeking a serious and comprehensive faith that touches all of life - but where are the Orthodox to witness to them? Generally nowhere.
So I guess I am saying that we should:
i. Have a proper and full understanding and experience of our own Orthodox Faith and Life.
ii. We should know enough about the various protestant teachings to honestly and intelligently resist the encroachment of their opinions among our own faithful.
iii. We should not consider that all protestants are the enemy even if all protestant groups are defective in their faith in some ways. We should generally consider protestants as the object of God's love and our mission as Christians.
iv. We should not use stereotypes of protestants, but should take the time to understand and appreciate the variety of groups and their origins.
v. Having a clear knowledge of the various groupings within protestantism we should be able to bring our own understanding of Orthodoxy to bear on each defective teaching.
vi. If we do think that protestants are not saved then we had better be doing all we can to bring them to the truth or we are nothing but hypocrites. If we do think they have a faith in Christ - and I know they do because I was an evangelical with a true faith in Christ - then we had better be doing all we can to help them bring that faith to fulness in Orthodoxy or we are nothing but hypocrites.
Father Peter
pray for me
joe
It would be a bit like someone saying that Max Michel was a dangerous church leader and that he showed that Orthodoxy was a cult. Well of course Orthodoxy should not be judged according to the behaviour of Max Michel, but equally all evangelicals should not be judged according to the behaviour of some (mostly) American groups.
There are very few groups working in Egypt to confuse Orthodox believers, and nearly all of them I would imagine are American, or part of American groups. It would also be the case that most are new groups. These groups should be resisted, but resisted with the truth and with love. Why do they want to share their defective faith? Often it is because they are convinced that it is the truth, otherwise why give up a life in the US and live in the Middle East? We need to be able to show folk in the West who are funding these groups that Orthodoxy is not a superstituous cult, but is life in Christ. Why do they not know this? Because we have not made any efforts to show them.
Most protestant groups in the UK and Europe are not sending missionaries to Egypt, or seeking to win converts among Orthodox in the West. Most protestant groups are suffering from decades of liberalism which has emptied their churches. They are not interested in the Orthodox, and Orthodoxy does not even feature on their ecclesiastical radar. Even among the evangelical protestants, where there is more life, most groups in the UK are not doing a lot of foreign mission, and again do not have Orthodox as a target. Baptists in the UK are generally not part of the raving loony fringe but are serious and even boring. Methodists have tended to become too attached to social action and would not encourage mission. Anglicans are in the middle of a self-destruct sequence. My own Plymouth Brethren were not known for being very modern. I could go through all the groups. They are not generally any threat to Orthodox, but should be the object of our urgent and constant concern as folk who need to find the fulness of life in Christ.
Those groups which would pose a threat are the modern, pentecostal types, often rooted in the US, and those groups of African pentecostalists in the UK. These groups do often present a syncretistic christian viewpoint and often do have an eye on Africa as a mission field, others will target Catholic countries in Europe. These groups are a danger. It is hard to find much connection with historic Christianity in their teachings - but they are a minority, even a very small minority in Europe and the UK. This is why I object to categorising all protestants or even all evangelicals as being the same as these people. They are not at all. Most evangelicals in the UK are fairly boring people who read the Bible and are trying to live their lives according to Christian principles. They have much to learn from Orthodoxy - if we will make the effort to try and reach them - but they are already on a spiritual journey towards God.
These other groups should not be called evangelical. Indeed they are more likely to be categorised as 'New Churches' in the sociology of Christian groups. In parts of London it is normal to pass old buildings which are now run by African/American groups and have titles such as 'The Holy Resurrection Angelic Host Church'. These are not evangelical in any classical sense. They are new groups, often a syncretistic blend of pentecostalism and african beliefs. Even the American pentecostal groups are not evangelical in the classic sense.
It is by understanding properly and comprehensively those who are causing our churches harm that we will be properly able to resist them, while being open and engaged with the other older groups in the West who should be the subject of our mission. Protestants are not all the same, and knowing the difference matters tremendously.
And when those of our own brethren are tempted away from Orthodoxy - what is it that draws them away? We really should reflect on what they think they are missing. Sometimes it is that they have not been taught Orthodoxy properly. Sometimes it is because they have not found friendship and fellowship in the Church. Sometimes it is because they have been hurt by people in the Church, or have found others to be leading a double life. Sometimes they are just not Orthodox at heart and it is not anyone's fault. But we should not always blame others - even those who are determined to cause us confusion - I cannot imagine ever possibly ceasing to be Orthodox. How is it possible that some others do leave Orthodoxy - what could we have done better for them?
Personally I find it (I am not sure what word to use) problematic to even suggest that a protestant is worse than a muslim. That seems to me to be based on a lack of experience of protestants. Some Orthodox are worse off than muslims. But generally speaking most evangelical groups in the UK are seriously trying to live out the christian life - even while they have tremendous disabilities that they are not even aware of. Those groups which are not really christian are not evangelical. People in the UK are born into protestant families according to the will of God - there are no Coptic Orthodox people here ensuring everyone in the UK knows about Orthodoxy. They then try to live the Christian life according to what they are taught. They are not ignoring Orthodoxy - they know nothing about it. And when Orthodox do make some effort to share their faith then they find that many people are interested. But surely we must not judge people for not being Orthodox when Orthodox are not making enough effort to share the treasure they are stewards of.
Father Peter
First and foremost: EKHRISTOS ANESTI!!
To you and to everyone.
I know you were evangelical before, and I hope that others like you make the same transition. It is a serious situation as many evangelicals believe that baptism is not essential for salvation, it is simply a "proclamation" of faith.
Concerning the "feel good" psychology - it is!! Let me prove it to you:
Here's an experiment you can try with any non orthodox Christian. Ask them ONE question:
* Should you forget or remember your sin(s) after you have repented and confessed them?
Now, any orthodox priest will advise you to remember them. ALL OF THEM! There is not one Coptic priest that will tell you to "forget your sins".
Any non Orthodox Christian will tell you: "No! you should not remember them because if you do, you'd be depressed, and why should you remember them if God has forgotten them?!"
There is a LOT to learn from the spirituality level of both responses.
In the Orthodox faith, we believe that it is wrong to forget your sins because they should remind you, if not help you to NOT make the same sin again. Our Lord's prayer reminds us to remember our sins, for by them, we remember that we ought to forgive "those who have trespassed against us".
King David tells us "my sin is every before me".
Remembering your sins gives you humility. Forgetting them makes you self-righteous.
Christ conquered death by his death. When we repent, we also conquer death through God's grace. Death had no victory over Christ, our Patriarchs tell us "Death, where is your sting?"- Death has NO power nor reign over us. When we repent, we are no longer slaves to sin, and the sin has NO POWER over us also. Remembering the sin should only make you slightly embarrassed (at the most), and it should make you love God more for you remember what/how much was forgiven to you. By forgetting your sins, you are saying that it is NOT God's grace that has triumphed over your sin through repentance, it is your effort in not remembering any negative aspects of your life. Its as if the sin STILL has power over you, and it is only by forgetting or not remembering it that you have conquered it. That isn't the work of God's Grace of Energies, that is the work of POPULAR PSYCHOLOGY. There's no spirituality in that!
There IS NO depression in the heart of any orthodox christian who has repented!!! That's just it!! For them to tell you that the rememberance of their sin makes them depressed means that they either do not know what repentance is, or there is something wrong with their spirituality. Its crystal clear.
Every priest/Coptic Priest that is that has ever spoken in Church has said to me one way or another, if not directly, that you should NEVER forget your sins.
The protestants/evangelicals tell their followers "Forget your sins, don't remember them... Christ has thrown them in the sea of oblivion".
Yes, Christ HAS thrown them in the sea of oblivion, and therefore, you should not forget what was thrown in that sea!! A Child forgetting what his parents has done for him , or sacrificed for him, would not result in a well mannered , descent child.
I could go on and on... but that's just the tip of the iceberg.
They do NOT have sacraments, and we receive our salvation THROUGH them. Through baptism, we become members in the body of Christ. If they are not baptised, then are they members in that body!?? How can they be??
ANd being a member is VITAL:
here's why:
Imagine a Vine tree:
Let's say: Christ IS the Vine.
The roots are the Father.
We are the branches coming out of it.
A new bud appears everytime someone is baptised.
What keeps us attached to that vine is that we keep His commandments.
When we are attached, what happens? The Holy Spirit works in us. It is the flow of life that we receive from the roots into us.
They claim that a gift of the Holy Spirit (FOR THEM!) is that they speak in tongues (IN JIBBERISH , NONSENSICAL) languages.
Now, considering the above architecture, I would say that they are NOT EVEN attached to the vine to be receiving ANYTHING from the Holy Spirit. If they were receiving anything, their conscience at the VERY LEAST would have worked/communicated with God to tell them that when they are preaching to the world that we are heretics believing that Baptism is essential for salvation, that they should at least read the scriptures to understand more. But they are so adament in their ignorance, it beggars belief as to what exactly IS flowing in their spiritual veins!!!!
Do you get my point??
Please pray for me.
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. -Luke 6:37
God is a just judge -Psalm 7:11
So God, who knows the heart... -Acts 15:8
It is not our job to judge, and it is not our job to say someone will or will not go to heaven. I understand the Bible says that the Bible says noone can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. However, instead of spending your time condemning them pray to God to help them see the full truth or try to bring them to the Orthodox Church. Also we should be working towards our eternity and winning our race, as St. Paul says: "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." Work towards your own eternity and help bring Protestants towards the Orthodox church so that they may see the full truth. I can speak for myself, in that I am a sinner, but often look to those around thinking that they won' be able to attain the kingdom of heaven or that their faith is flawed. However, in those situations I should have instead tried to bring them to the Orthodox faith, or prayed for them.
We should all leave the judging to God as there are cases of those attaining the kingdom of heaven who haven't been baptized such as the right hand thief. Instead of condemning them bring them to the full truth and leave all judging to God.
Pray for me, for I am a sinner.
That's a VERY dangerous statement you are making, not for yourself, but for everyone.
His Holiness published a book called "Comparative Theology" to explain the differences between us and protestants. Is he judging? Do you think the pope has NO right to judge??
That is so odd. When I see Coptic Christians LEAVING the Coptic Church to go to Protestant Churches, because it makes them "feel good" , it worries me!
What do you make out of the Gospel where it says "I am the vine, and we are the branches in the vine"?
If He is the vine, and baptism produces a new bud in that branch, then WHERE ON EARTH ARE THEY IF THEY DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN BAPTISM!! This is not judging.
I'm making a logical conclusion based on the Gospel!!
Your statement about judgement scares me as it is submerged in self-righteousness: IT IS OK to JUDGE, but to Condemn is WRONG. I'm not condemning ANYONE.
I would NOT be happy that a Coptic Christian converts to protestantism. Nor would be happy if a Protestant Christian BRINGS their spirituality into a Coptic Church. This BOOK is for YOU to read!! NOT GOD!!!
You are embarassing yourself with your own ignorance: THE THIEF ON THE CROSS WAS BAPTISED!!!!!!!! READ THE BOOK!!!!!
Its people like you who scare me more than the protestants.
Stop this nonsense about judging. Its not fair anyone here who speaks about Theological differences gets someone telling him "Do not judge". Who am I condemning? I do NOT know if they are going to heaven or not, but all I know is that UNLESS you partake of the sacraments, you are not part of that vine. That's from the Bible. If you have a problem with ANY of that, take it up with God, or the Pope, as they both say the same thing.
I could agree that generalising is bad as some non orthodox christians DO believe that you must be baptised to be saved; but this is the minority.
Please pray for me.
(Correct me if I am wrong) My brother, your points are well thought-out and made. But please concider this, that there is a difference between discerning and judging. HH Pope Sheunoda dicerns the differences of other churchs to the true apostalic coptic orthodox church -and shows how the church was split apart thanks to the heresies of man, but in no way does he take the role of God and says "they will go to hell". Yes there is a right and wrong that are clearly clarified and apparent, but the whole point of keeping the church traditions that is based upon the dessert fathers sayings, is to help us come closer to God in a relationship with him. (atleast I think there is) God is loving and just, if you are a protestant and can't handle all the restrictions of the coptic orthodox church than he will make you find your salvation in a protestant church. (REMEMBER that they still believe Jesus Christ is God)
Please pray for me.
Yes, exactly. Well said. Please please all understand: I am no one to suggest that ANYONE is going to hell or not. Far be it from me to even know. All I am saying is that unless they are baptised, they are not part of the Vine. They do NOT believe in baptism for salvation. They only believe that "believing" saves you.
That's all.
In no way am I suggesting even that non Christians - Hindus, muslims, budhists etc are going to hell either; for this is NO ONE's job to judge.
All I can tell you is that according to the Gospel, to scripture, to the sayings of the fathers, and according to H.H. Pope Shenouda, baptism is required for salvation.
I am only stating WHAT is required for salvation. The Pope is stating the same also. We are not saying they are NOT saved. But from where I'm standing, it doesn't look too promising for them! Yes, and so does satan, and all the demons.
You make a very good point .I find it very strange when some coptic christians make excuses for "evangelicals" (which ever splinter group they may be ).There is no middle ground in orthodoxy .Either you believe or you don't .You either have sacraments or you don't .Identifying the short comings of so called evangelicals is not judging them. Identifying thier shortcomings is being cautious and arming yourself with knowledge .In the ethiopian church we call them "menafik ".Menafik means half believer .We do not identify them with their religious name .Arm yourself with knowledge .THAT IS NOT JUDGING .
zoxsasi
You make a very good point .I find it very strange when some coptic christians make excuses for "evangelicals" (which ever splinter group they may be ).There is no middle ground in orthodoxy .Either you believe or you don't .You either have sacraments or you don't .Identifying the short comings of so called evangelicals is not judging them. Identifying thier shortcomings is being cautious and arming yourself with knowledge .In the ethiopian church we call them "menafik ".Menafik means half believer .We do not identify them with their religious name .Arm yourself with knowledge .THAT IS NOT JUDGING .
Axum,
Thanks for your message, but the user iLoveStMark realised the problem long ago, I just found out. Like an idiot, I just thought, "well... if they believe in Christ, so what.. its OK, it is better than nothing ".
Its not. Its not at all.
Call me naive, or slow, but I just realised this very recently.
Then, to top it off, their entire spirituality really worries me.
Why am I creating this thread? If I was naive enough to think that they are "ok" and I, being someone who appreciates my Orthodox Church's spiritual heritage, then what about someone Coptic who really has no idea about the differences?!!
It is no joke when I tell you that many copts are going to protestant churches - especially in Egypt. We are talking about huge numbers.
I think those going really ought to read Comparative Theology by H,H Pope Shenouda before even thinking about attending any of their prayer meetings.
pray for me
joe
zoxsasi
I did not know that the so called evangelicals are "saving" copts in egypt too.People who shy away from knowing the difference and stressing that they are christians too are gravely mistaken for they are anything but christian .A true christian would not be tempted to destroy another christian church and that is exactly what they are trying to do .Some one here pointed out that if orthodox believers are swayed away to protestanism then it is the weakness of that orthodox church .This is absolutely wrong .We are struggling with satan himself .Our church will prevail because that is what God tells us .
knowing your faith and saying it is the one true faith that our forefathers handed down to us is not critisizing nor is it judging others .I will boldly say my church is the one true church and all other groups are not christians even if they claim to be .Be aware of the difference ...beware of the devil ....exercise your faith with knowhow .
wo sibhat le egziabher .
You are right Axum: they are not interested in saving people who do not know God, but rather us, who think that we need to be baptised to be saved.
I'm being very serious with you.
To them, they see no difference between us and idol worshippers. They have it stuck in the little heads that we worship icons, we worship St. Mary, and they cannot fathom the concept of Christ being the passover lamb.
This is a far greater threat than Islam.
Please pray for me, God bless everyone.
calling gods name does not make one a christian .we are told in the bible that many will come armed with his name .Do you think the devil will come to you and say "hello there ... I am the devil and i will take you to hell " ....absolutely not .He will come bearing gods name surrounded by light so he can fool you to believe that he is the one .Wakeup and hold on to our church because you will be holding on to your dear life eternally .our forefathers have died for it .It was built by the holy blood of christ .
Wo sibhat leegziabher .
about arius ....
He said "Oh. But are you saved!?".
I said "Sure. If I repent my sins, and believe, I'm saved".
He said "What Church am I from?".
I said "Im Coptic Orthodox"
Moron Evangelical: "Oh but the institute doesn't save you. You worship icons, bread and wine"
me: "No.. that's not true. "
Moron Evangelical: "Yes! Its true"
Me: "Look, why don't you go off and preach some other poor soul rather than me, as you can see I'm already a christian. Perhaps someone is living in sin, and they need help?".
Moron Evangelical : "No, YOU are living in sin because you are heretical. I need to get you out of your Church. It is not an institute that saves you, but the blood of Christ".
Me: "Listen, you don't believe in priesthood, so you won't acknowledge sacraments that are administered by priests".
Moron Evangical: "We do believe: we believe that we are all priests, and water doesn't save you, its only good for making tea and swimming".
Look, this isn't just ONE moron in the middle of nowhere. This is one of 100000000's of morons who are hellbent on destroying our faith. I have no idea what/how Fr. Peter became Orthodox, but frankly, we need to know how and perhaps lead these bozos down the same route.
And you know? I DONT CARE ABOUT THEIR SALVATION!! Yep!! I'll say it right out. I don't even care. I care they leave my Orthodox Church alone.
tell me this: how can they be saved if they are intent on destroying the Bride of Christ??? Its not as if they just think of us heretics.. they want to save us from being Orthodox (or Catholic!).
WOW!!
SO TELL ME THIS: IS THIS THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING IN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can the works of the Holy Spirit work in them??!!
I DON'T CARE WHAT GOOD you see in them, or HOW good they sound. I am 1000% convinced these people have nothing to do with God.
I agree that Catholics are just missing orthodoxy; but evangelicals are missing God, and the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the SPIRIT OF TRUTH!! They do not have this.
Perhaps ignorance of our Orthodox faith is an issue. Take the example you provided Zoxsasi: "You worship icons, bread and wine" NO NO NO NO - we don't worship icons, and we don't worship bread and wine - we worship the Body and Blood of Christ! We all know that, but due to nonsense like this being widespread (a type of propaganda, if you will) these people don't know any better. We have a duty somehow to thus educate them - but how and through what means? Thats the question.
pray for me
joe
Well, I think by now we all know that these people are preying upon the simple in Egypt, and trying to steal away our members (the example you provided Zoxsasi is not an isolated incident - was it in Egypt by any chance?)
Perhaps ignorance of our Orthodox faith is an issue. Take the example you provided Zoxsasi: "You worship icons, bread and wine" NO NO NO NO - we don't worship icons, and we don't worship bread and wine - we worship the Body and Blood of Christ! We all know that, but due to nonsense like this being widespread (a type of propaganda, if you will) these people don't know any better. We have a duty somehow to thus educate them - but how and through what means? Thats the question.
pray for me
joe
Its not that they are trying to "steal" our members, they are destroying and accusing our Church, and treating it as if it is a heresy. The point is that Christ's blood was shed to build the Church. We achieve salvation THROUGH baptism. Christ didn't just come to "save us", he came to give us newness of life, to be with us, to abide in us, to cleanse us: All this is achieved through the Sacraments of the Church. But just "believing" does absolutely NOTHING.
Why?
It is even said in the Bible that those who crucified Him "believed" that He was the Son of God; but that they preferred the "praise of men, rather than the praise of God". So what good then is belief??
Unless they accept salvation through the Holy Sacraments, then they are not saved, and are therefore making a mockery of the very salvation that they profess to be proponents of.
What gets my goat (lol.. I love that expression, I just heard it a few days ago) is that they are destroying the Bride of Christ.
You know JoeGabriel what the problem with the CoC is??? There is so much food to eat, that perhaps there is not enough time given to eating it. That's the only problem. I think that's why we enjoy Passion Week, because the Psalms chanted gives us that time to read and contemplate on the readings.
On a normal sunday, we could enjoy the same, but I realised that unless the person who is reading the Gospel/Pauline/Acts/Synaxarium is a good reader, you'll miss 50% of it.
Secondly, what bothers me is that they quote saints like St. Athanasious, and the Fathers and yet do not accept the sacraments in which they lived by. We need to give them proof that our Saintly Patriarchs of the Church DID have Holy Communion, and they WERE baptised (Water immersion) ; and the early Church DID administer that.
It beggars belief that they have the Bible in front of them, yet when it clearly states that the Apostles Baptised them, they find it hard to believe that this means "by water" and "Spirit".
Remarkable.
No, this incident happened to me whilst in the UK my friend.
pray for me
joe
if you need more resources, i think there are many people here who can help you.
the last time i met a group of protestants from various churches, i discussed something from the orthodox study Bible and they were very interested.
if you are concerned, let this motivate you to pray and share (sensitively).
so maybe u could find out what group these people are from and re-educate them? 'the coptic orthodox church' by HG anba angaelos is a great introduction which is very good for non-orthodox people to read.
if you need more resources, i think there are many people here who can help you.
the last time i met a group of protestants from various churches, i discussed something from the orthodox study Bible and they were very interested.
if you are concerned, let this motivate you to pray and share (sensitively).
Hi Mabsoota,
Thanks for the info. May I just ask you: you mentioned that you had a choice of churches: Orthodox + Protestant, yet you chose the Orthodox. Is that the case? or were you originally protestant / evangelical and then you changed to orthodoxy?
Thanks
i was Christian in various protestant churches (moved house a lot) after my parents converted from atheism when i was small, and was always seeking God. for more than 2 years i studied church history (eccumenical councils etc) in much of my spare time.
God answered my prayers and brought me to the orthodox church, i have been orthodox for 1 1/2 years. in that time i have changed actually very little of my previous doctrinal beliefs coz i and many others didn't subscribe to these really extreme protestant views that have been described here.
so please, guys, focus on education, look at things from the point of view of someone who knows nothing about orthodoxy and try to help them. sure, not everyone will be nice and welcoming, but it's just our job to explain our faith not to change people. that is God's job. and if we get trouble and ridicule along the way, this is a blessing to suffer for our Lord.
I had posted the attached link before,but it was deleted by the protestant machinery without any explanation. In the liturgy we pray " strip the vanity of the heretics". To understand the depth of this prayer ,take your time and listen to the audio lecture by Abouna Athanaisius. It is for a reason that the audio is still archived in the website of the church.Abouna's arguments are concise,point-blank and Athanasian. Also,try to find the recording of His Grace Anba Bishoy valuable teaching on the non-apostolic heretics,without being troubled about how the "comme ci, comme ca" Orthodox think about HG's views.
Glad to see ya around and say hi to your dear sister for me :)
Strip the Vanity of the Heretics