From the first prayer to the last words of blessing I do not believe that laughter has a place in the Church. Nor do I think that anything should be done to encourage laughter at this time.
At a meeting outside the liturgy perhaps there is a place for some mild humour, but never comedy.
The words of the sermon are deadly serious and should never be a matter of levity. Indeed at the beginning of the Liturgy of St James which I celebrate I pray...
Therefore I bring you this supplication, that your Spirit, the Advocate, may be sent down to me, strengthening and preparing me for this ministry. And grant that without condemnation the word that has been declared by you may be proclaimed by me to the people in Christ Jesus our Lord, with whom you are blessed, together with your all-holy, good, life-giving and consubstantial Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Before the reading of the Holy Gospel I pray...
Master, Lover of humankind, make the pure light of your divine knowledge shine in our hearts and open the eyes of our mind to understand the message of your Gospel. Implant in us the fear of your blessed commandments, so that, having trampled down all carnal desires, we may change to a spiritual way of life, thinking and doing all things that are pleasing to you.
and when I have preached I pray..
You have made your divine and saving words resound for us, O God, enlighten the souls of us sinners to understand the things that have been read, so that we may be seen to be not only hearers of the spiritual songs, but also doers of good deeds, maintaining a faith without pretence, a life without blame, conduct without reproach..
It seems to me that these words of prayer do not allow me to make the proclamation of God's word a matter of levity or comedy, but of the utmost seriousness. Young people must also learn that these are serious matters. It seems to me that relying on humour teaches entirely the wrong response to the words of the Scriptures and their explanation in the sermon. Even young people can and should and must pay attention to these things. If they do not then it is not necessarily the fault of the preacher. If we say that we are Christians then we must act as Christians. If we say that we are servants of Christ then we must act as servants. Playing with our i-Phones, chatting to others etc etc cannot be excused in anyone who has any grasp at all of what it means to be a Christian.
I'm glad Father Peter is writing about this, because this new trend of teaching has irked me for a long time.
The role of a priest in giving a sermon, is not to make people feel good, it's not to light them on fire to go "save" people around them, this is not orthodoxy. The priest is supposed to call the people to repentance, and this is a Biblical teaching:
They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. - Jeremiah 23:17-23, emphasis mine
I really think that we're doing this today: making people feel really good, but not really teaching them holiness and how to hate evil. A sermon is meant to teach us to leave the error of our ways - to repent. If someone needs to smile, needs some consolation, needs encouragement, that is what that person will receive from Youth Group, Sunday School, and from the priest in and outside of confession, but the Liturgy is Liturgy, it is sacred, and the Body of the Lord is at the altar when we are laughing hysterically and clapping.
Our greatest example is our Lord Jesus Christ, He was meek, yet He still pricked the hearts of all to repentance. He showed love, but He was also very firm. God help and have mercy on the priests, because their responsibility before God is tremendous, it is not for us to judge them or their burden, but it is the "feel-good" sermons that most of us are referring to as being "Protestant".
I listened to a sermon by a very charismatic preacher, who was teaching that "the will of God has to be taken by force", this is not Orthodox, and is contrary to the teachings of the fathers - both patristic and monastic! I heard another sermon in which Jessica Simpson was used as the inspiration, in a song that is purely about lust, a song that, if we really took our Lord's call to holiness seriously, would have been insulting to our ears. I won't go on with examples because it will detract from the purpose of discussion, but wanted to say that yes, there are teachings that are coming out that are simply wrong, and not o/Orthodox.
Thank you for clarifying, Fr. Peter. I understand now, and agree. In the same way that I have a visceral reaction against the use of phones and projectors in the church, I ought to have a reaction against laughing and making light of things in the church. It is substantially the same offense (treating the house of God as though it were something else), and it is something that everyone must be educated about and on guard against. I will be wary of any priest or other person who encourages such things. Thank you again.
I'm glad Father Peter is writing about this, because this new trend of teaching has irked me for a long time.
The role of a priest in giving a sermon, is not to make people feel good, it's not to light them on fire to go "save" people around them, this is not orthodoxy. The priest is supposed to call the people to repentance, and this is a Biblical teaching:
They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. - Jeremiah 23:17-23, emphasis mine
I really think that we're doing this today: making people feel really good, but not really teaching them holiness and how to hate evil. A sermon is meant to teach us to leave the error of our ways - to repent. If someone needs to smile, needs some consolation, needs encouragement, that is what that person will receive from Youth Group, Sunday School, and from the priest in and outside of confession, but the Liturgy is Liturgy, it is sacred, and the Body of the Lord is at the altar when we are laughing hysterically and clapping.
Our greatest example is our Lord Jesus Christ, He was meek, yet He still pricked the hearts of all to repentance. He showed love, but He was also very firm. God help and have mercy on the priests, because their responsibility before God is tremendous, it is not for us to judge them or their burden, but it is the "feel-good" sermons that most of us are referring to as being "Protestant".
I listened to a sermon by a very charismatic preacher, who was teaching that "the will of God has to be taken by force", this is not Orthodox, and is contrary to the teachings of the fathers - both patristic and monastic! I heard another sermon in which Jessica Simpson was used as the inspiration, in a song that is purely about lust, a song that, if we really took our Lord's call to holiness seriously, would have been insulting to our ears. I won't go on with examples because it will detract from the purpose of discussion, but wanted to say that yes, there are teachings that are coming out that are simply wrong, and not o/Orthodox.
Pray for me. fortunatus
I miss you bro. It was always a pleasure talking with you. Always benefited from your wisdom.
ok you got me to agree with you concerning Liturgy sermons but not 'Talks' at Youth Group and other meetings. I think those need to be interactive (very interactive) and I don't see the need to avoid jokes in them. He does an excellent job with those.
Also, I don't see the 'feel good' thing that you speak of in his sermons. He's always talking about repentance and the need to grow in your relationship with God.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=11133.msg135000#msg135000 date=1301714175] ok you got me to agree with you concerning Liturgy sermons but not 'Talks' at Youth Group and other meetings. I think those need to be interactive (very interactive) and I don't see the need to avoid jokes in them. He does an excellent job with those.
Also, I don't see the 'feel good' thing that you speak of in his sermons. He's always talking about repentance and the need to grow in your relationship with God.
+
Peace and grace,
"Talks" at youth group, and other meetings I can understand a different style, more diverse sermons etc... but the dignity of the clergy and the Church should never be diminished. By no means am I saying that to be an "orthodox" sermon, one must be stern-faced, never laughing, never smiling, and speaking in Old English - but the "old" truths are still that, truth, and we have to learn it whether we feel we like it or not. The congregation needs to be raised to a certain level, not the Truth watered down.
I didn't say anything directly about any priest. :) I spoke about a general style/trend without mentioning anyone, and that was very intetional. :) The "feel-good" sermons, in general, though, are the ones that get you all worked up emotionally. You feel extreme emotions but are left with little meat, little content, little guidance, and little moral relevance. It's like when you go on a school trip with all your friends, and you internally love it so much, and then crash a week later because you can't reattain what was there. It's like when you get a buzz from a sermon or convention, and then you go nowhere with it, and just crave the next "buzz". At that point, you're looking for things that make you feel differently, that get you excited, and when you don't feel that charge, you assume that your spiritual life must be down or that talk has become cheap. Sermons are not about feeling worked up, if they're really the words of God, they should humble and transform you.
Comments
At a meeting outside the liturgy perhaps there is a place for some mild humour, but never comedy.
The words of the sermon are deadly serious and should never be a matter of levity. Indeed at the beginning of the Liturgy of St James which I celebrate I pray...
Therefore I bring you this supplication, that your Spirit, the Advocate, may be sent down to me, strengthening and preparing me for this ministry. And grant that without condemnation the word that has been declared by you may be proclaimed by me to the people in Christ Jesus our Lord, with whom you are blessed, together with your all-holy, good, life-giving and consubstantial Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.
Before the reading of the Holy Gospel I pray...
Master, Lover of humankind, make the pure light of your divine knowledge shine in our hearts and open the eyes of our mind to understand the message of your Gospel. Implant in us the fear of your blessed commandments, so that, having trampled down all carnal desires, we may change to a spiritual way of life, thinking and doing all things that are pleasing to you.
and when I have preached I pray..
You have made your divine and saving words resound for us, O God, enlighten the souls of us sinners to understand the things that have been read, so that we may be seen to be not only hearers of the spiritual songs, but also doers of good deeds, maintaining a faith without pretence, a life without blame, conduct without reproach..
It seems to me that these words of prayer do not allow me to make the proclamation of God's word a matter of levity or comedy, but of the utmost seriousness. Young people must also learn that these are serious matters. It seems to me that relying on humour teaches entirely the wrong response to the words of the Scriptures and their explanation in the sermon. Even young people can and should and must pay attention to these things. If they do not then it is not necessarily the fault of the preacher. If we say that we are Christians then we must act as Christians. If we say that we are servants of Christ then we must act as servants. Playing with our i-Phones, chatting to others etc etc cannot be excused in anyone who has any grasp at all of what it means to be a Christian.
Peace and grace,
I'm glad Father Peter is writing about this, because this new trend of teaching has irked me for a long time.
The role of a priest in giving a sermon, is not to make people feel good, it's not to light them on fire to go "save" people around them, this is not orthodoxy. The priest is supposed to call the people to repentance, and this is a Biblical teaching:
They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. - Jeremiah 23:17-23, emphasis mine
I really think that we're doing this today: making people feel really good, but not really teaching them holiness and how to hate evil. A sermon is meant to teach us to leave the error of our ways - to repent. If someone needs to smile, needs some consolation, needs encouragement, that is what that person will receive from Youth Group, Sunday School, and from the priest in and outside of confession, but the Liturgy is Liturgy, it is sacred, and the Body of the Lord is at the altar when we are laughing hysterically and clapping.
Our greatest example is our Lord Jesus Christ, He was meek, yet He still pricked the hearts of all to repentance. He showed love, but He was also very firm. God help and have mercy on the priests, because their responsibility before God is tremendous, it is not for us to judge them or their burden, but it is the "feel-good" sermons that most of us are referring to as being "Protestant".
I listened to a sermon by a very charismatic preacher, who was teaching that "the will of God has to be taken by force", this is not Orthodox, and is contrary to the teachings of the fathers - both patristic and monastic! I heard another sermon in which Jessica Simpson was used as the inspiration, in a song that is purely about lust, a song that, if we really took our Lord's call to holiness seriously, would have been insulting to our ears. I won't go on with examples because it will detract from the purpose of discussion, but wanted to say that yes, there are teachings that are coming out that are simply wrong, and not o/Orthodox.
Pray for me.
fortunatus
[quote author=fortunatus link=topic=11133.msg134969#msg134969 date=1301689891]
+
Peace and grace,
I'm glad Father Peter is writing about this, because this new trend of teaching has irked me for a long time.
The role of a priest in giving a sermon, is not to make people feel good, it's not to light them on fire to go "save" people around them, this is not orthodoxy. The priest is supposed to call the people to repentance, and this is a Biblical teaching:
They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. - Jeremiah 23:17-23, emphasis mine
I really think that we're doing this today: making people feel really good, but not really teaching them holiness and how to hate evil. A sermon is meant to teach us to leave the error of our ways - to repent. If someone needs to smile, needs some consolation, needs encouragement, that is what that person will receive from Youth Group, Sunday School, and from the priest in and outside of confession, but the Liturgy is Liturgy, it is sacred, and the Body of the Lord is at the altar when we are laughing hysterically and clapping.
Our greatest example is our Lord Jesus Christ, He was meek, yet He still pricked the hearts of all to repentance. He showed love, but He was also very firm. God help and have mercy on the priests, because their responsibility before God is tremendous, it is not for us to judge them or their burden, but it is the "feel-good" sermons that most of us are referring to as being "Protestant".
I listened to a sermon by a very charismatic preacher, who was teaching that "the will of God has to be taken by force", this is not Orthodox, and is contrary to the teachings of the fathers - both patristic and monastic! I heard another sermon in which Jessica Simpson was used as the inspiration, in a song that is purely about lust, a song that, if we really took our Lord's call to holiness seriously, would have been insulting to our ears. I won't go on with examples because it will detract from the purpose of discussion, but wanted to say that yes, there are teachings that are coming out that are simply wrong, and not o/Orthodox.
Pray for me.
fortunatus
I miss you bro. It was always a pleasure talking with you. Always benefited from your wisdom.
Also, I don't see the 'feel good' thing that you speak of in his sermons. He's always talking about repentance and the need to grow in your relationship with God.
ok you got me to agree with you concerning Liturgy sermons but not 'Talks' at Youth Group and other meetings. I think those need to be interactive (very interactive) and I don't see the need to avoid jokes in them. He does an excellent job with those.
Also, I don't see the 'feel good' thing that you speak of in his sermons. He's always talking about repentance and the need to grow in your relationship with God.
+
Peace and grace,
"Talks" at youth group, and other meetings I can understand a different style, more diverse sermons etc... but the dignity of the clergy and the Church should never be diminished. By no means am I saying that to be an "orthodox" sermon, one must be stern-faced, never laughing, never smiling, and speaking in Old English - but the "old" truths are still that, truth, and we have to learn it whether we feel we like it or not. The congregation needs to be raised to a certain level, not the Truth watered down.
I didn't say anything directly about any priest. :) I spoke about a general style/trend without mentioning anyone, and that was very intetional. :) The "feel-good" sermons, in general, though, are the ones that get you all worked up emotionally. You feel extreme emotions but are left with little meat, little content, little guidance, and little moral relevance. It's like when you go on a school trip with all your friends, and you internally love it so much, and then crash a week later because you can't reattain what was there. It's like when you get a buzz from a sermon or convention, and then you go nowhere with it, and just crave the next "buzz". At that point, you're looking for things that make you feel differently, that get you excited, and when you don't feel that charge, you assume that your spiritual life must be down or that talk has become cheap. Sermons are not about feeling worked up, if they're really the words of God, they should humble and transform you.
That was longer than intended! My apologies.
pray for me,
fortunatus