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Divorce in the Coptic Church

copticuser20copticuser20
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Why are many couples allowed to divorce now? Not like right away but in the end after they talk with their priest and Anba Paula, why are they allowed to divorce at all even if there was no adultery? Isn't that stretching the rules a bit?
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Comments

  • egyboyegyboy
    no one really knows what they talk about with Anba Pola so a confession of adultery may have been revealed in that meeting, so who knows really. But i have heard of some couples being divorced with the reason being adultery either. anyone know?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    everything that happens in that matter is private for those couple and his grace. the rule is the rule....even in bishops will do against it. 
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    but it's getting unorthodox. i am not a marriage expert or anything but i am pretty sure that every divorce can be avoided if both people grow up shwaya. i feel like the Orthodox church is very slowly morphing into the Catholic church....
  • imikhailimikhail
    In the Coptic Church there is no divorces unless there is an adultery. Period.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11331.msg136660#msg136660 date=1303940456]
    In the Coptic Church there is no divorces unless there is an adultery. Period.

    So you are saying every couple divorced had someone that committed adultery?
  • imikhailimikhail
    If it is really a divorce, then yes.

  • hany58hany58
    There was an interview with HG bishop Paula regarding this matter & he said that the church allows divorce in either of the following:

    1. One of the partners committing adultery & ther other partner does not agree to continue the marriage.
    2. One of the partners committing spiritual adultery i.e. leaving Christianity.
    3. If one of the of the partners tricked his partner, e.g. one of the partners had a criminal record but didn't say that before the marriage to the other partner, in this case the church considers this cheating & can allow divorce. Or one of the partners had a very serious disease & didn't talk about it before marriage.

    HG bishop Paula stressed the point that the church DOES NOT allow divorce for ANY other reason.

    hope this helps
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=baladoos link=topic=11331.msg136674#msg136674 date=1303950244]
    3. If one of the of the partners tricked his partner, e.g. one of the partners had a criminal record but didn't say that before the marriage to the other partner, in this case the church considers this cheating & can allow divorce. Or one of the partners had a very serious disease & didn't talk about it before marriage.

    this (when it's done in the first 6 month) is called an annulment.
  • dzheremi
    Are annulments only available within the first 6 months of the marriage? What happens if the person discovers this information at a later date?
  • aiernoviaiernovi
    It doesn't have to be in the first six months to be considered an annulment. If there was deception during the engagement period and it was found out after the marriage, it can lead to an annulment depending on the situation and in discussion with his grace Anba Bola
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=aiernovi link=topic=11331.msg136679#msg136679 date=1303951169]
    It doesn't have to be in the first six months to be considered an annulment. If there was deception during the engagement period and it was found out after the marriage, it can lead to an annulment depending on the situation and in discussion with his grace Anba Bola

    that's weird....i knew it is sometimes can be as long as a year but not anytime.

    an annulment is very differnt than a divorce.
  • imikhailimikhail
    Again no divorce except for adultery.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11331.msg136683#msg136683 date=1303952091]
    Again no divorce except for adultery.

    what of those who are not bound by the LAW that identifies "adultery"?!
  • imikhailimikhail


    minatasgeel,

    I am not sure I understand your question.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11331.msg136692#msg136692 date=1303953345]
    minatasgeel,

    I am not sure I understand your question.

    a person who leaves the Church, not an orthodox person anymore....he is not under the Law--what will his spouse do who is still faithful in the Church?

    btw, 99.99% of the time the divorce in itself is not the problem for a person but divorcing and getting the absolution to get married again.
  • imikhailimikhail
    Leaving the faith is considered an adultery as described in the Bible
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11331.msg136696#msg136696 date=1303954444]
    Leaving the faith is considered an adultery as described in the Bible

    hehe......you answered my question...
  • i.love.st.demyana.i.love.st.demyana.
    what if the person takes drugs? Or is abusive?

    I think our church does have its exceptions in serious matters such as i mentioned above.

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=simplycoptic link=topic=11331.msg136718#msg136718 date=1303963860]
    what if the person takes drugs? Or is abusive?

    I think our church does have its exceptions in serious matters such as i mentioned above.


    nope.......when it gets out of hands where there is NOTHING else to be done.....than separation becomes the best option. many decent people do that. they have made a mistake by getting married; the best option is to separate.
  • i.love.st.demyana.i.love.st.demyana.
    nope.......when it gets out of hands where there is NOTHING else to be done.....than separation becomes the best option. many decent people do that. they have made a mistake by getting married; the best option is to separate.

    ohh but at least they are not living together
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=simplycoptic link=topic=11331.msg136726#msg136726 date=1303964772]
    nope.......when it gets out of hands where there is NOTHING else to be done.....than separation becomes the best option. many decent people do that. they have made a mistake by getting married; the best option is to separate.

    ohh but at least they are not living together

    but it's not divorce.....like i said before if you have read the rest of the thread; it's not about leaving the spouse and getting a divorce but getting a "lawful divorce" that allows you to get married again. for example, since divorce is mainly done in the case of adultery (a lawful divorce), only the wronged spouse have the right to get married again and not the sinner.
  • user00
    [quote author=baladoos link=topic=11331.msg136674#msg136674 date=1303950244]

    3. If one of the of the partners tricked his partner, e.g. one of the partners had a criminal record but didn't say that before the marriage to the other partner, in this case the church considers this cheating & can allow divorce. Or one of the partners had a very serious disease & didn't talk about it before marriage.




    Sorry I didnt have time to read everything, but just a comment about this point-- it is becoming (very sadly) increasingly popular in the lands of immigration (USA, for example) for people from Egypt to trick a Coptic American citizen into marriage only to leave them once their greencard arrives in the mail. Very sad and something to be wary of if you marry someone from Egypt!

    oh and speaking of annulment, I just happened to stumble upon this:
    http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=779&catid=253
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=user00 link=topic=11331.msg136728#msg136728 date=1303965688]
    [quote author=baladoos link=topic=11331.msg136674#msg136674 date=1303950244]

    3. If one of the of the partners tricked his partner, e.g. one of the partners had a criminal record but didn't say that before the marriage to the other partner, in this case the church considers this cheating & can allow divorce. Or one of the partners had a very serious disease & didn't talk about it before marriage.

    Sorry I didnt have time to read everything, but just a comment about this point-- it is becoming (very sadly) increasingly popular in the lands of immigration (USA, for example) for people from Egypt to trick a Coptic American citizen into marriage only to leave them once their greencard arrives in the mail. Very sad and something to be wary of if you marry someone from Egypt!

    not that i am happy about or supporting this.....but almost all the time that is a legal union rather than a true one within a church.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    I think what is even worse than a divorce is when a couple that clearly isn't compatible stays together and fights all the time. They do nothing to fix the relationship and the kids suffer in the process. I have witnessed this in many families. The parents fight and the children grow up in a home of conflict never feeling loved. Just because two people are living in the same house and sleep on the same bed, yet fight all the time, doesn't mean they are in union. Many times they are divorced from each other spiritually, yet remain in the same house. Part of the problem is lack of preparation by the church for couples wishing to get married. Seemingly anyone can walk in and get married - provided they are Coptic Orthodox of course.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11331.msg136733#msg136733 date=1303967073]
    I think what is even worse than a divorce is when a couple that clearly isn't compatible stays together and fights all the time. They do nothing to fix the relationship and the kids suffer in the process. I have witnessed this in many families. The parents fight and the children grow up in a home of conflict never feeling loved. Just because two people are living in the same house and sleep on the same bed, yet fight all the time, doesn't mean they are in union. Many times they are divorced from each other spiritually, yet remain in the same house. Part of the problem is lack of preparation by the church for couples wishing to get married. Seemingly anyone can walk in and get married - provided they are Coptic Orthodox of course.

    actually......no. divorce in the long term is much worst. despite how much a fight can go on in a family, the parents will never abandon their children like when a one parent does in a case of divorce.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    That is debatable, Mina. I am not advocating for divorces whenever there is a fight in the family. I am talking about a kid who grows up seeing his mom beaten by his dad. You think that is better for the kid than living with only his mom?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11331.msg136738#msg136738 date=1303969385]
    That is debatable, Mina. I am not advocating for divorces whenever there is a fight in the family. I am talking about a kid who grows up seeing his mom beaten by his dad. You think that is better for the kid than living with only his mom?

    well i can't say it's better....BUT think about this: the ways to fix the problem of abuse are MANY, including the abuser to stop and always come back.
    in divorce, there is NO COMING BACK. it is the end.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    I just think some scenarios are so severe that we cannot make an immovable rule and hold on to it. Social justice is more important than the law. Assuming this abuser will never repent or change and the abuse continues daily. I would certainly say divorce is a better option. The church should protect her children and not watch as they get abused and tell them to 'stick it out' and in many cases the Church is understanding.
  • imikhailimikhail
    Our Lord Himself said that there is no divorce except for adultery. Who are we to change what He says because of what we perceive as social injustice.

    There are other arrangements that could be made, when there is abuse, like counseling, psycho therapy, separation but no divorce.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    I agree, we should not change God's law. The one who creates knows much better than that which was created.

    But I think the passage is not as simple as you make it.

    1) Jesus says, "Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Mark 10:9

    +The emphasis here is on God. Two people can come together and it was against God's will. What about two teenagers who rush into marriage and some priest allows it. Shall we say that GOD has joined them? I think not. So, maybe not all instances of marriage are joined by God. You will say the joining is not in the bringing together of two people but in the sacrament itself. This also, I am hesitant to accept. For a couple that is not ready for marriage and does not even believe in the uniting of the flesh to become one flesh will not receive the blessing. For it is according to their faith.

    2) The disciples further question Jesus about his radical proposition. He does not return to what He had previously said but gives a different answer. “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." -Mark 10:11-12

    + In this passage close attention should be paid to the conjunction (and). So adultery comes when the divorced person remarries. Thus it seems a divorce might not automatically mean adultery unless the person remarries (which is taken to mean engage in intercourse).


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