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Trinity
Hi everyone, I believe in the Trinity, but I know of people with different opinions whom use verses from the Bible to argue that Jesus is the only God, but that He uses all 3 different names (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)
Does someone want to share?
Does someone want to share?
Comments
The Holy Trinity is the central Mystery of the Christian Faith. God has however given us some clues in regards to this mystery by what is seen in creation. The best example I feel, would be the Sun.
The Sun could be seen as the Father, the light that is begotten from the Sun can be seen as Christ, as he says I am the light of the world, and the heat from the sun and light which proceeds from them both, can be seen as the Holy Spirit who proceeds from both the Father and the Son as the creed says. So you have them sharing in the exact same essence or substance, yet different in relation to one another and in function.
Yet the Sun, Light, and Heat have one common purpose to nurture the earth as do the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the one common purpose of sharing its glory with mankind and bringing us into relationship with the Godhead.
The Father begets the Son as the Sun begets the light, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as heat proceeds from the Sun and the light.
The Sun we see high in the sky, and we see the Sun through its light. In the same way, as we behold the Father through the Son, and heat is something we feel, and the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, he is the presence we feel that supports us and gives us consolations and gifts.
Therefore the one Sun shows itself as triune, sunlight and heat yet one substance or essence, as its splendid in its unity and oneness. How much more the Creator of the sun is splendid and One in his unity and oneness in his triune being.
We therefore believe in One God in three divine persons, great is the mystery of this unity. Its beyond unity, its more higher than what we can conceive as unity.
But as Saint Augustine says, if we could fully understand God he would cease to be GOD.
Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh. " (I Tim. 3:16).
His holiness pope shenouda wrote
"As this union is permanent, never divided nor separated, we say in the liturgy that His
Godhead never departed from His manhood for a single moment nor even for a twinkle
of an eye."
You can read more about the nature of Christ in Pope Shenouda's Book.
You can find the book at
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/nature_of_christ.pdf
THE HOLY TRINITY AND HUMAN MIND
Our Trinitarian faith does not oppose the human mind as someone may think, for if it is called a "Mystery" this is because of our need for a divine revelation to accept it. Even "monotheism" has many mysteries that the mind cannot understand by itself. For example, all religious men say that God fills heaven and earth and He in infinite, at the same time there is a divine throne. Is this divine throne limited? How does it look like in heaven? How can God occupy the whole world and at the same time He is present in every room and in every house of God, not partially for He is undivided, but He is entirely present?
The human soul may be used as an example to explain the Trinitarian faith. Every soul is "Existent," rational and alive. Although man has one soul and its being is distinguished from its mind and its life, the three are inseparable.
Fire has three self-properties that look like the hypostasis, for ithas flame, the light that is begotten of the flame, and the heat that proceeds from it.
It was very important to reveal the mystery of the Holy Trinity so that our salvation can be realized. The Father, Lover of men, sent His Word incarnate to bear our sins and pay our debts, and sent His Holy Spirit which raises us to His Glory.
Our Trinitarian faith uncovers the real divine love, for God does not seek our destruction, or have authority over us as some existentialists say, He is "Love," that longs for our adoption so that we might be united with Him and share in His eternal Glories.
The Father begets the Son as the Sun begets the light, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as heat proceeds from the Sun and the light.
There's a bit of an error in the statement. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and not from the Father and the Son. Those words were not included by the Council of Nicaea, but were added later by Roman Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox churches consider their inclusion to be a heresy. This is called the FILIOQUE CLAUSE.
All Eastern Orthodox Churches churches do not have the words "and the Son" (the filioque clause), in keeping with the first seven Ecumenical Councils.
You all have contributed with great opinions..
But Ray, and HW said that Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit at the same time. They are inseparable.
But, what about the time when Jesus is being baptized by John the Baptist and there is a voice from Heaven saying This is my Son in whom Im.. well pleased". And also Jesus prays all the time, even when he's been crucified and he says to the father (sorry I don't know my Bible in english, I only know it in spanish) he tells him to watch over His spirit...
I believe in the Trinity, once again, but I have a hard time seing the 3 persons as inseparable...
But I think during the baptism episode, I mentioned above, the 3 persons manifest themselves to the human eye.
And also if Jesus prays to the Father, means the Father is in heaven?
If the example of the Sun were relatively good (of course no perfect example exists to model the Trinity) , the light is begotten from the sun and the heat is radiated from the sun and not from the sun and the light...
Also, the statement "Jesus is in fact the father, the son and the holy spirit. They are not merely names we call him" put by hw0809 is completely wrong..
The three hypostasis (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are of one essence (omo-ousios) however they are distinguished, they have different roles.. the Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit..
I think u get the confusion between the Trinity and the nature of Christ, from the book of Pope Shenooda.
The second hypostasis (the incarnated Son i.e Christ) has complete divine nature and complete human nature in one nature (the Christ) we can only virtually separate the 2 natures in our thoughts as Saint Cyril mentioned..
But Ray, and HW said that Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit at the same time. They are inseparable.
yaneth,
You are correct, the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit are one God. You can think of them as manifestations of how God reveals himself to human beings.
The following is an excerpt of an excellent book by the Rev. Father Abraam Sleman using a tree as an anology of God:
[hr]
The Father
The first thing that comes to mind when you think about the existence of the vine tree, or any tree in general, is the root of the tree. It is for the tree its origin and invisible being.
The father of the tree, including the branch, which bears the leaves and the fruits. This branch with all what it has can be called “the image” of the tree or the invisible being. The source of its life and the processor of this life into all the visible being of the tree.
The Son
The problem of knowing God is like an ant’s problem of knowing man. For the ant, the man is omnipresent in its eyes. All its abilities and lifetime are not sufficient to know the man. In the mean time, man has no way to manifest himself to the ant. What a tragedy! The only way is that the ant may become man or the man may become an ant that they may know each other and be in good terms. Sadly, both sides are not capable to solve this tragedy. Then the problem of the ant and the man will continue forever.
Would the case of knowing God be the same? Man cannot cross beyond his limitations to know or see God. Does God have any clue as to how to solve this problem?
Let us go back to the true vine, to search for an answer. The tree may exist by its root, which is invisible under the ground, while you may not know it is there. Or you may not know anything about its qualities. In this case you have a problem of lacking knowledge about the tree.
Then, to say that the vine tree is there and know its qualities, you need another thing in addition to its root. The tree should have what reveals itself. You need to see “the branch” that carries the leaves and the fruit. Or in other words, you need to see “the image” of the tree. When you see this, you can say I see the tree; it is there and I know its qualities.
The Holy Spirit
If the vine tree has a root and branch (image), are these things sufficient to say that it is a real tree? Absolutely, they are not. This tree could be an artificial tree having the exact shape of the tree unless it has a kind of life to be a real tree.
Every tree the Lord has planted has its own kind of life. This life proceeds from the root to its branch (image) and gives the tree its unique shape with a unique taste of its fruits.
In the same way, to say that this God is a real living God we should search for the kind of life He has. God is Spirit (John 4:22, 2 Cor 3:17) NKJ, He does not derive His life from another source. God is living by His Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:18). And the Spirit of God is He “who gives life” (John 6: 63).
As the life proceeds from the root of the tree into its branch (image), so the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father into the Son. More than that, the Son gives us the promise of the Holy Spirit saying, “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water” (John 7:38).“But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive” (John 7:39).
The Son is seen on the Jordan and The Holy Spirit as a dove. They are distinguished.
The obvious question how they are distinguishable and inseparable at the same time? the simple answer is since the three are equal and infinite in every respect (the divine one-essence), they fill everywhere and everytime so they can never be separable.
When we say Jesus was in the Jordan, this is according to his humanity, his divinity of course is everywhere. The same applies for the form on which the holy Spirit "appeared" the dove was only a declaration, the Holy Spirit (=Spirit of God = God) is everywhere...
The Meaning of the Holy Trinity by Rev. Fr. Abraam Sleman
Download from:
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/
Mike, unfortunately i was not able to view the site you posted, could you post the actual article?
In fact I like all 4 articles listed in there. I think Im getting kind of greedy, but they all seem pretty interesting.
Going back to the topic in question, I still have a couple of things Ide like to mention, but Ill wait for tomorrow.
Thanks guys.
After reading you guys, over and over ;D, I was finally able to grasp the concept. I am very excited, our God is truly amazing and huge, and marvelous. Not that I didnt know this before, but now it just gives me a clearer picture of it. Thank you all.
VIVA - your explanation was great!.
I need to ask one last thing though in regards to this topic.
I want to be able to explain this to a couple of friends of mine, with verses from the Bible.
Can someone help?
first I apologize if my previous posting was a little bit tough for hw0809... My comment was about the statement (based on our faith) and not the person him/herself :)
yaneth - That's good that you enjoy to know more about our wonderful God. Remember that this will be the perpetual job of the Saints in Heaven : "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" Jn 17:3.. what a wonderful job that takes for ever to know more and more about the infinite God..
just remember to keep praying so that God reveals Himself to you
Concerning the verses of the Trinity and Unity of God, u will find a lot of them in the book of Fr. Abraam Sleman.. you will be even surprised to find a lot of verses for the Trinity in the old Testament !
A very clear verse is in the book of Isaiah:
"from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me" Isa. 48:16
The book of Proverbs is full of verses for the relation between the Son and the Father .. Especially in Proverbs 8 (In this wonderful Chapter, the word "Wisdom" can be clearly substituted by "The Son" ).. Most clearly in Prov. 8:22-36
Also in Proverbs 30:4 "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
However God did not reveal the Trinity so clearly in the old testament so that the people don't fall in polytheism (it was very easy to resemble idolaters in the time of old testament.. God treated the people in a manner of childhood spirituality)
The new testament is full of verses.. there is not enough space to mention them all... few examples:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matt 28:19
The end of St Paul episles greetings "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen" 2 Cor 13:14
The opening greeting of St Peter episle "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" 1 Pet. 1:2
You've been wonderful. Thank you.
What you said before is very wise.
The best thing to do is read the scriptures and pray to God for guidance and wisdom to understand His Word.
This is a very deep, broad and yet such important topic. It is very sacred as well, because we are discussing the divinity of our God and He's infinite.
But, I think we as youth should prepare ourselves and be well informed of our faith, so that when anyone comes around trying to make us doubt our faith, we're standing strong and know how to defend it.
This was a great discussion guys, thank you all for sharing.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/index.html
Basically it comes down to one verse "God is love" Jn1 4:8.
You'd have to agree that this is an eternal statement about God. If God was purly monotheistic (in the Jewish/Moslem mind set) or modal in sabelinist doctrine(i.e. taking roles of Father and Son at different times) then there is a problem. If there is only one God then who did He love??
If there is only Himself then that makes Him egocentric because He must have loved Himself. In our belief we believe there is a relationship of love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three persons in One God that love one another.
Since this is the case the Fathers existence is empty without the Son and the Son has no existence without the Father (Ps 2:7).
You will also find that there is a very specific way of referring to the Father, Son and H S in the Bible. You'll have to get your bible tool out to search these quotes; sorry I'm getting a bit lazy.
For instance we call the Father the lover of mankind and the Holy Spirit the Spirit of love.
Father = Lover
Son = Love
H S = Spirit of Love
We also call the Son Wisdom (proverbs) and the H S the Spirit of Wisdom.
Father = Wise
Son = Wisdom
H S = Spirit of Wisdom
This continues for all of Gods attributes and these titles dictate that the whole of the trinity is an active/dynamic possessor of each virtue.
Another is example is the Son is called truth and the H S is called the Spirit of Truth.
Father = Truthful
Son = Truth
H S = Spirit of Truth
I am unclear as to what this all means though so perhaps someone can fill me in....
My feeling is that these attribute titles are related to the personal properties of the Trinity but I am unsure.
However, may I just kindly warn some of my brethren here not to fall into an ancient heresy called modalism by saying that Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Is the Father and the Holy Spirit! Nor are they "manisfestations" nor modes of the One God. Jesus is NOT the Father NOR the Holy Spirit! For example if we see the great theophany after St. John the Baptist baptized Our Lord Jesus , The Father and the Holy Spirit appeared at the SAME time in the SAME place (Matthew3:16-17). Also in John 10:30 Our Lord Jesus says He and the Father are One which means in Essence they are One because they both share the same Divine Nature since the Greek word "Hen" meaning "one" is gender-neutral . Thus Our Lord was NOT saying He and the Father are the SAME person but of the same Divine Nature or Essence. There are many other verses in the Bible as well as readings from the Holy Fathers that testify to this but many brethren of this wonderful site are more knowledgeable than this big dumb gamuza....Mooo! P.S. This site will help you learn about modalism:http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm