first of all...HOLLA AT BANOUB AND SMS 4 BACKIN ME UP...second of all, to answer SMS's question: i believe the ear piercing is just to allow the ladies a lil bit of adornment to the face or somethin...it has nothin to do w/ anything cultural or religious. i think the women were allowed that since the old testament, and it just carried over to all the others. well i gotta go, glad u liked the verse. hope u did too mark, since u dont seem to like anything else i say.
Mark- I think I have the verses your looking for. I used to live in Australia and I attened the Coptic School there. Of course we had Religion as a class and this Topic came about.
*"...you shall not cut yourselves nor shave the front of your head for the dead." Deuteronomy 14:1
*"...nor make any cuttings in their flesh." Leviticus 21:5
*"...and their friends shall not cut themselves." Jerimiah 16:6
*"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:28
*"So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knoves and lances, until the blood gushed out on them." I Kings 18:28 (Cutting the flesh was a feature of worship os Melqart or Baal in the Old Testament.)
*"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" I Corinthians 6:19
Piercing the ears was a sign of permanent enslavement.Deuteronomy 15:16,17 has a bearing on the matter: "then take an awl, and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life."
Hope that helps you. If you need more info let me Know!
i think denying communion is going way way too far... He was not sinning, nor openly professing heresy... The argument that we weren't born with piercings doesn't hold, we weren't born with clothes either, but..so what??
Personally, I don't find anything wrong with tattoos or piercings, as long as its in moderation, swiss cheese is too much, so is becoming a walking canvass...
The tattoo verse in the Bible has to do with the Egyptian pagan practices God did not want the Jews to follow, especially ancestor worship, but people get tattoos because of Christian and non-pagan reasons as well.
I dont have any piercings or tattoos myself, although I would probably get a tattoo of a cross on my wrist or another personal one...nothing flashy or eye-catching
hey egyptsangel16... those were awesome versus u posted if u still have any other notes, or if u know a lot about a certain topic, plz post more info... i'd be glad to read it!
Where does the Church stand on tattoos and body piercings, especially tongue piercing?
Greetings in Christ. Your question regards whether the Church has made pronouncements on tattoos and other forms of what some may consider “bodily enhancements,” which may include body piercing in general and tongue piercing in particular.
Some people might construe body piercing as a form of mutilation. The Church primarily uses the term “mutilation,” however, to describe serious or lethal injuries. For example, the Church uses the term regarding unjustifiable organ transplants: “It is morally inadmissible directly to bring about the disabling mutilation or death of a human being, even in order to delay the death of other persons” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2296). The Catechism adds in no. 2297: “Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law” (emphasis original, footnote omitted).
As we will see, however, Catholic theologians sometimes use the term “mutilation” to describe lesser actions that could include some types of body piercing.
The Church has never prohibited ear piercing, and, in the Bible, there is no prohibition against the wearing of earrings and nose rings (cf. Ezek. 16:12). In addition, we are not aware that the Church has made a pronouncement on tattoos, body piercing in general, or tongue piercing specifically. The Church, however, does provide principles that help in answering your questions.
There is, for example, the issue of totality to consider. According to this principle, the parts of one’s body are ordered to the good of that person. Thus, surgical mutilation or other disfigurement must not seriously impair or destroy bodily functions or the beauty of the individual (cf. Thomas O’Donnell, S.J., Medicine and Christian Morality: Second Revised and Updated Edition [New York: Alba House: New York, 1991], p. 122). In this light, because of a concern for the spread of disease and problems that could result from eating, tongue piercing specifically could be questioned. Tongue piercing could also be questioned on “appearance” grounds: specifically how it impairs one’s beauty and could unnecessarily alienate others that one encounters. Other forms of body piercing could also be questionable, depending on how they are done. In addition, regarding tattoos, some would definitely be morally objectionable because of their bodily placement and associated exhibition, as well as because of the images and associated messages of the tattoos themselves.
Depending on one’s culture, and because we should not serve as a stumbling block for fellow believers and prospective believers who may be scandalized or otherwise alienated (cf. 1 Cor. 8:9), a Catholic may have additional reason to refrain from body piercing and tattoos. In other words, Catholics should not behave in ways that will unnecessarily offend others and therefore impede the Church’s mission to make disciples of all nations (cf. Mt. 28:18-20).
Catholics should be mindful of these considerations regarding their own conduct while also being merciful toward those who may have (or get) tattoos or some type of body piercing. As evangelists called to make disciples of all nations, we must not allow ourselves to write people off because of their tattoos or body piercings. If they have not been won to Christ and His Church, we must strive to win them.
It’s not something that’s beneficial so it’s not something you should do. Tongue piercings are especially disgusting. Why is it people find the need to hang ornaments from their tongue and belly button will perpetually remain a mystery. How much more blatant can the bible be? Don’t put wholes in your body, it’s not natural and even if it was, it’s disgusting. Why people find it necessary to destroy the beautiful body god gave them is mind baffling. Aside from all the reasons of religion; just look at the people who do it. You all probably aren’t familiar with a place called “the village” its breeding ground for the world’s sinners; probably the most disgusting place in New York. A walk down there will yield homosexuals with tattoos and piercings all over the place. It’s even possible to spread diseases through this. The ends don’t justify the means. It’s a simple choice, why is there such a discrepancy?
I think that the taboos against tatoos and piecing are cultural. As long as it's not excessive to the point of self-inflicted abuse, I don't see a moral problem with that stuff. I suppose it's not natural, but then, neither is driving around in a gas-guzzling, environment destroying, road-hogging SUV. And I guess we can look at other people and use them collectively as a criterion for judging tattoos, but I don't think I like approach very much. There are communities in America in which the people who shave their heads are Neo-nazi skinheads. So since I shave my head, should I stop doing that if ever I were to move into such a community?
As far as the argument that we Catholics shouldn't take on appearances that offend people, there's a limit to how far we should go with that. I know some people who dislike that I shave my head. Does that mean that I should stop shaving my head? The "totality" approach sounds like a better way to go about it, though.
Oh yes, and I'd add that we in America do have a form of self-inflicted body alteration that the majority of us not only consider acceptable, but preferred. And it really doesn't serve a purpose for most people other than to make them more appealing to look at. It's called braces.
I just looked up the verses that egyptsangel16 cited. When read in context of the chapters from which they came, they clearly show themselves to be rules of custom. I seriously doubt that they apply anymore, at least not as written. I encourage all to read the entire chapters of those verses, because it's easy to miss the meaning of those citations if not considered in context.
in ancient Egypt, the pharoah worshippers would tattoo themselves when a relative died because in their belief the ghost of the relative wouldn't be able to recognize the person, since the tattoo was added after the relative died... the Jews would follow this pagan practice, which is completely against YHWH's teaching on Sheol and heaven and hell. Christians who tattoo usually dont do it for antiChristian reasons, or heretical teachings...so I don't think that verse applies unless someone wants a tattoo of an 'Om' symbol, or other pagan religious symbols... and even that wouldn't be necessarily heretical since hindu's don't tattoo Om on themselves, only dumb american kids..
Michael, I take it that you went back and read the chapters of those verses. They demonstrate exactly what you seem to be getting at, which is that the ancient Hebrews were trying to distinguish themselves from their former pagan masters by shunning their practices. But since their pagan masters don't exist anymore, and since most of us probably aren't ancient Hebrews (just a guess, of course), that's why I don't think those verses apply to us as written.
But since their pagan masters don't exist anymore, and since most of us probably aren't ancient Hebrews (just a guess, of course), that's why I don't think those verses apply to us as written. ...be careful with that because the Bible is never outdated. The problems of the people in "biblical times" aren't any different now which is why the Bible is such a universal and eternal book. It will somehow forever apply to whatever situation we're in. Although the pagan masters no longer exists, you still have the fact the association of piercings and tattoos with people that do not exactly follow the first commandment. We still live in a world where we are trying to distinguish ourselves from the people of this world because we are not.. "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also." John 15:19-20 I completely understand that times have changed, but our mission has not. We're here as people cast apart by Him, hand-picked by Him, chosen by Him to spread the message of salvation, which i think entails a bit of seperation from the rest of the world and it's practices.
Actually Marys, certain provisions of the Bible are clearly outdated. If you had gone back to the chapters referred to in this thread, then you'd see that much of content refers to the handling of slaves. Since slavery is outdated, how can those verses referring to the treatment of slaves not also be?
Yes, tatoos and piercings are do not "follow" the 1st Commandment per se. But neither do they contradict the Commandments anymore than wearing make-up, watching the news, chatting online, or fixing a car engine do. Should we now declare these things prohibitted as well?
As you have suggested, the issue is our mission on this earth, and I believe that misison is to love God and love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Though we should distuinguish ourselves from non-believers, we must remember that we do this through Faith and Good Works towards our fellow human beings rather than concentrating on superficial fashion conformity issues, such as tatoos and piercings. This is why I believe that much of the discomfort regarding such things misses the point.
that's exactly my point.. we shouldn't be focusing on the corporal sense of life.. your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, however, and in order to portray the true image if Christ we must carry that body without blemish... i'm not advocating conformity of anti- conformity..i'm just saying that either you're against it or for it.. and the Bible is clearly against it for reasons beyond the reasons of conforming.. it is for the fact that the body we hold is not ours and we should treat it with the utmost care.
A human being is Body and Soul you cannot separate the two; without the Body the Soul cannot be; without the Soul, the Body cannot function.
The Bible is telling us to be careful of what we embrace in the culture that we are a part of. It isn't specifically about tattoos, it is about rejecting what is of against the religion and accepting what is Jewish (or in our case Christian). This can be anything from Britney Spears to making Christmas into a secular holiday.
Tattoos in our culture is not a necessarily a pagan custom, some do some don't... just be sure that whatever you do isn't leading you away from God.
[quote author=Marys link=board=1;threadid=202;start=45#msg5879 date=1088910829] that's exactly my point.. we shouldn't be focusing on the corporal sense of life.. your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, however, and in order to portray the true image if Christ we must carry that body without blemish... i'm not advocating conformity of anti- conformity..i'm just saying that either you're against it or for it.. and the Bible is clearly against it for reasons beyond the reasons of conforming.. it is for the fact that the body we hold is not ours and we should treat it with the utmost care.
I disagree that it is "clearly against it" for the reasons you mentioned. Once again, if you re-read those passages you will see that these are rules of custom that the Hebrews adhered to in order to distinguish them from pagans. It is not tatooing and piecing itself so much as it is about enforcing cultural practices to demonstrate opposition to pagan cultures. Without the anti-pagan elements to these prohibitions against piercing and tatooing, the rules lose their meaning. So these rules that were mentioned in the OT verses cited were not about taking care of the body so much as they were about opposing paganism.
Of course, the Corinthians verse clearly refers to the importance of taking care of one's body. But in that chapter, tatooing and piercing are not mentioned as particularly harmful to the body. And in reality, piercings and tatoos are no more harmful to the body than getting braces for bad teeth, as long as those things are not done excessively.
hey guys, this is just my view on tats but i have a tat of the cross on my right wrist and so do the rest of my family but its ur ordinary copt cross. I got it recently when i went 2 egypt n my parents were fine with it. The priests (abouna) at my church also have a tat of the cross on their right wrist. my bro has a big tat on his arm of arch angel micheal. i think that tats r fine only when there for ur OWN self and of course a raligious tat. im totally against the idea of getting a tat for the fun of it, especially one of a scull or something stupid like dat.
Well for myself, I am offered to get a Cross tatoo on my wrist yet this is what I think of it:
the Cross was used in the old times when little babies were kidnapped and forced to be muslims so when they grew up and they look at the Cross they'd know the truth. As for a teen in America, I am strongly against that idea since we do not face the danger anymore and the Cross would just be for show off, my Priest doesn't have one, my father doesn't have one, my grandfather doesn't have one, my great aunt does but she was born in the times when babies were kidnapped so there...
It could also be used to remind oneself of his or her duty as a Christian. It shows the love one has for the Church as well if they are doing it to continue the beautiful Tradition of the Saints. It all depends on intent, if you get it to show off, might as well not bother, but if you do it to glorify God and His Church or to remind yourself of your duty then God Bless you and go for it!!
The bible does NOT become out dated. There were problems such as homosexuality and bestiality since the beginning of time. If God made the bible to become outdated then we would not refer to it now and it would become worthless with time. Gods words will NEVER loose their significance or their bearing.
As for the tattoos, the bible clearly states not to defile the temple of god. REGARDLESS of the context, you don’t destroy your body. People often say “it’s my body, I can do what I want”; incorrect, it’s not your body, its god’s, he is just lending it to you for 80 some odd years, so you ought to take good care of it.
Trying to associate destroying your body with watching the news, chatting online, or fixing a car engine, is heinous. What is the benefit of destroying your body? Expressing yourself? Save the liberal attitude for gay rights activists. There is no benefit to defiling the temple of Christ.
I see this thread slowly becoming superfluous, so I’ll spare us the trauma…
Comments
::)
I think I have the verses your looking for. I used to live in Australia and I attened the Coptic School there. Of course we had Religion as a class and this Topic came about.
*"...you shall not cut yourselves nor shave the front of your head for the dead." Deuteronomy 14:1
*"...nor make any cuttings in their flesh." Leviticus 21:5
*"...and their friends shall not cut themselves." Jerimiah 16:6
*"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:28
*"So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knoves and lances, until the blood gushed out on them." I Kings 18:28 (Cutting the flesh was a feature of worship os Melqart or Baal in the Old Testament.)
*"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" I Corinthians 6:19
Piercing the ears was a sign of permanent enslavement.Deuteronomy 15:16,17 has a bearing on the matter: "then take an awl, and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life."
Hope that helps you. If you need more info let me Know!
God Bless
Becca 8)
Personally, I don't find anything wrong with tattoos or piercings, as long as its in moderation, swiss cheese is too much, so is becoming a walking canvass...
The tattoo verse in the Bible has to do with the Egyptian pagan practices God did not want the Jews to follow, especially ancestor worship, but people get tattoos because of Christian and non-pagan reasons as well.
I dont have any piercings or tattoos myself, although I would probably get a tattoo of a cross on my wrist or another personal one...nothing flashy or eye-catching
if u still have any other notes, or if u know a lot about a certain topic, plz post more info... i'd be glad to read it!
Greetings in Christ. Your question regards whether the Church has made pronouncements on tattoos and other forms of what some may consider “bodily enhancements,” which may include body piercing in general and tongue piercing in particular.
Some people might construe body piercing as a form of mutilation. The Church primarily uses the term “mutilation,” however, to describe serious or lethal injuries. For example, the Church uses the term regarding unjustifiable organ transplants: “It is morally inadmissible directly to bring about the disabling mutilation or death of a human being, even in order to delay the death of other persons” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2296). The Catechism adds in no. 2297: “Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law” (emphasis original, footnote omitted).
As we will see, however, Catholic theologians sometimes use the term “mutilation” to describe lesser actions that could include some types of body piercing.
The Church has never prohibited ear piercing, and, in the Bible, there is no prohibition against the wearing of earrings and nose rings (cf. Ezek. 16:12). In addition, we are not aware that the Church has made a pronouncement on tattoos, body piercing in general, or tongue piercing specifically. The Church, however, does provide principles that help in answering your questions.
There is, for example, the issue of totality to consider. According to this principle, the parts of one’s body are ordered to the good of that person. Thus, surgical mutilation or other disfigurement must not seriously impair or destroy bodily functions or the beauty of the individual (cf. Thomas O’Donnell, S.J., Medicine and Christian Morality: Second Revised and Updated Edition [New York: Alba House: New York, 1991], p. 122). In this light, because of a concern for the spread of disease and problems that could result from eating, tongue piercing specifically could be questioned. Tongue piercing could also be questioned on “appearance” grounds: specifically how it impairs one’s beauty and could unnecessarily alienate others that one encounters. Other forms of body piercing could also be questionable, depending on how they are done. In addition, regarding tattoos, some would definitely be morally objectionable because of their bodily placement and associated exhibition, as well as because of the images and associated messages of the tattoos themselves.
Depending on one’s culture, and because we should not serve as a stumbling block for fellow believers and prospective believers who may be scandalized or otherwise alienated (cf. 1 Cor. 8:9), a Catholic may have additional reason to refrain from body piercing and tattoos. In other words, Catholics should not behave in ways that will unnecessarily offend others and therefore impede the Church’s mission to make disciples of all nations (cf. Mt. 28:18-20).
Catholics should be mindful of these considerations regarding their own conduct while also being merciful toward those who may have (or get) tattoos or some type of body piercing. As evangelists called to make disciples of all nations, we must not allow ourselves to write people off because of their tattoos or body piercings. If they have not been won to Christ and His Church, we must strive to win them.
from:
www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=64&art_id=20775
As far as the argument that we Catholics shouldn't take on appearances that offend people, there's a limit to how far we should go with that. I know some people who dislike that I shave my head. Does that mean that I should stop shaving my head? The "totality" approach sounds like a better way to go about it, though.
Oh yes, and I'd add that we in America do have a form of self-inflicted body alteration that the majority of us not only consider acceptable, but preferred. And it really doesn't serve a purpose for most people other than to make them more appealing to look at. It's called braces.
God bless!
God bless!
the Jews would follow this pagan practice, which is completely against YHWH's teaching on Sheol and heaven and hell.
Christians who tattoo usually dont do it for antiChristian reasons, or heretical teachings...so I don't think that verse applies unless someone wants a tattoo of an 'Om' symbol, or other pagan religious symbols...
and even that wouldn't be necessarily heretical since hindu's don't tattoo Om on themselves, only dumb american kids..
God bless!
...be careful with that because the Bible is never outdated. The problems of the people in "biblical times" aren't any different now which is why the Bible is such a universal and eternal book. It will somehow forever apply to whatever situation we're in. Although the pagan masters no longer exists, you still have the fact the association of piercings and tattoos with people that do not exactly follow the first commandment. We still live in a world where we are trying to distinguish ourselves from the people of this world because we are not..
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also." John 15:19-20
I completely understand that times have changed, but our mission has not. We're here as people cast apart by Him, hand-picked by Him, chosen by Him to spread the message of salvation, which i think entails a bit of seperation from the rest of the world and it's practices.
Yes, tatoos and piercings are do not "follow" the 1st Commandment per se. But neither do they contradict the Commandments anymore than wearing make-up, watching the news, chatting online, or fixing a car engine do. Should we now declare these things prohibitted as well?
As you have suggested, the issue is our mission on this earth, and I believe that misison is to love God and love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Though we should distuinguish ourselves from non-believers, we must remember that we do this through Faith and Good Works towards our fellow human beings rather than concentrating on superficial fashion conformity issues, such as tatoos and piercings. This is why I believe that much of the discomfort regarding such things misses the point.
God bless!
A human being is Body and Soul
you cannot separate the two; without the Body the Soul cannot be; without the Soul, the Body cannot function.
The Bible is telling us to be careful of what we embrace in the culture that we are a part of. It isn't specifically about tattoos, it is about rejecting what is of against the religion and accepting what is Jewish (or in our case Christian). This can be anything from Britney Spears to making Christmas into a secular holiday.
Tattoos in our culture is not a necessarily a pagan custom, some do some don't... just be sure that whatever you do isn't leading you away from God.
that's exactly my point.. we shouldn't be focusing on the corporal sense of life.. your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, however, and in order to portray the true image if Christ we must carry that body without blemish... i'm not advocating conformity of anti- conformity..i'm just saying that either you're against it or for it.. and the Bible is clearly against it for reasons beyond the reasons of conforming.. it is for the fact that the body we hold is not ours and we should treat it with the utmost care.
I disagree that it is "clearly against it" for the reasons you mentioned. Once again, if you re-read those passages you will see that these are rules of custom that the Hebrews adhered to in order to distinguish them from pagans. It is not tatooing and piecing itself so much as it is about enforcing cultural practices to demonstrate opposition to pagan cultures. Without the anti-pagan elements to these prohibitions against piercing and tatooing, the rules lose their meaning. So these rules that were mentioned in the OT verses cited were not about taking care of the body so much as they were about opposing paganism.
Of course, the Corinthians verse clearly refers to the importance of taking care of one's body. But in that chapter, tatooing and piercing are not mentioned as particularly harmful to the body. And in reality, piercings and tatoos are no more harmful to the body than getting braces for bad teeth, as long as those things are not done excessively.
God bless!
I got it recently when i went 2 egypt n my parents were fine with it.
The priests (abouna) at my church also have a tat of the cross on their right wrist.
my bro has a big tat on his arm of arch angel micheal.
i think that tats r fine only when there for ur OWN self and of course a raligious tat.
im totally against the idea of getting a tat for the fun of it, especially one of a scull or something stupid like dat.
God bless, Ibra
jks jks
Well for myself, I am offered to get a Cross tatoo on my wrist yet this is what I think of it:
the Cross was used in the old times when little babies were kidnapped and forced to be muslims so when they grew up and they look at the Cross they'd know the truth. As for a teen in America, I am strongly against that idea since we do not face the danger anymore and the Cross would just be for show off, my Priest doesn't have one, my father doesn't have one, my grandfather doesn't have one, my great aunt does but she was born in the times when babies were kidnapped so there...
Mike
As for the tattoos, the bible clearly states not to defile the temple of god. REGARDLESS of the context, you don’t destroy your body. People often say “it’s my body, I can do what I want”; incorrect, it’s not your body, its god’s, he is just lending it to you for 80 some odd years, so you ought to take good care of it.
Trying to associate destroying your body with watching the news, chatting online, or fixing a car engine, is heinous. What is the benefit of destroying your body? Expressing yourself? Save the liberal attitude for gay rights activists. There is no benefit to defiling the temple of Christ.
I see this thread slowly becoming superfluous, so I’ll spare us the trauma…