hey girls thats a very very interesting question.. and its confusing.. ??? but i'll tell u wut i think..ok? well i think that sense the baby wasn't born yet it doesn't make him an accual soul.. i mean he/she were going to have one but God didn't want them to (thats EXTREAMLY SAD :'().. also he was the one that was going to bring him to this Earth.. but maybe its 4 sumone else's own good.. u kno? sumone that accually has a real soul.. u get me? i kno i dunno any good.. i mean wut do i kno.. :-\ GREAT QUESTION.. GREAT PPL ;D
I think the minute a women is pregnant the baby has a spirit because whenever there is life there is a spirit. Now whether the baby goes to heaven or not is in the hands of God, and one thing we should remember is God is a merciful God and something like this would probably be dealt with alot of care by God, I think all we can do is pray for those babies that never make it. I hope that helps.
one time in sunday school they told us that the unborn child does have a soul, but they don't get to see God in heaven if they die because it says in the Bible, the only way to see God is to be baptized and take communion, therefore, there a certain place in heaven for them because they didn't have the chance to be baptized yet. if i'm confusing anyone, just let me know.
...A saint was shown Heaven by an Angel, when the saint looked he saw a few blind children... he was confused, so he asked the Angel, "what is goin on here" the Angel responded "these are the innocent Children who were not baptized, because they are young to understand the message of God, God accepted them here.” it doesn’t matter if its still in the stomach, or out... what matters is God is Just, but fair... and merciful.
i dont mean to be mean or anything, these are all good questions. but everysingle time a question like this is asked, a bishop or my sunday school teacher will say, "let us worry about our selves and leave the judging to God. He is the fairest and most merciful of us all"
Because if you don’t focus on yourself, and your spiritual path, and focus on others' salvation, you will get lost, and confused, and more than likely will fall.... that is actually one of the successful tricks of the devil.
And another point, because I always do that with my Sunday school kids is, DO YOU KNOW GOD? All we know is God is fair, and just... thus we leave it to him to judge... once I was told that Gandhi is probably in Hell, because he was not baptize... well, I don’t know if he is in hell or Heaven... he is somewhere, I don’t know... so that is when I respond with, I'll tell you for sure, when I don’t see him in Heaven." Here is a Question for you, Where is your Great, great Grandfather? is he in hell... or heaven... you don’t know, thus you left the judging to God.... hope I helped .
wut i know is dat ... fromt the moment the woman is pregnent,... the baby has a soul! ... (Remember God is JUST) so if the baby died... he won't go to hell... ... i'm sure that god will take care of him just like he is takin care of all of US =)
That is very intresting, there's a lady i know who is over 35 years old and is going to have a baby, God Willing. She was talking to a Bishop and he said that the spirit unites with the body from the day of the creation(my way of defining sexual reproduction). But remember tha even born babies can die ofn the first day, and they NEEd to be baptized, even if it was by water and the baptizer was a Spiritual deacon or a doctor or something, but that's DEFIENTLY worst case scenario, in fact, you must be the rank of a priest or higher to baptize, however if there's no priest and problems like that then i think exceptions are made. In fact there was a lady talking to anba Moussa, she told him she had a friend who's son was dying, her friend was not Christian, so she decided to baptize him by blood and by that I mean she wanted to cut herself and with the blood anoint him (baptize him). Yet she was hesitated and didn't do it, so she asked Sayedna of that was right thing to do or no and his reply was that even with water she could have baptized th child..so nobody go and try to baptize anyone :) unless you are a priest ofcourse and I highly doubt there are any Priests on this website...It's a very complicated matter and maybe there's a soloution for it that God did not reveal to us yet, and maybe the Pope and the Holy Synod decided already by guidance of the Holy Spirit, I honestly don't know and I wouldn't wanna tell you something that is inaccurate but I will try to get an answer...by the way i'm going to Egypt tommorow morning God Willing and i want you all to pray for me, please...pray that i go and come back safely. through the intercessions of the Virgin Mary and the Archangel Michael, I pray God's protection and guidance will guard me and my family and I pray that he may bless you all as well.
have fun Micheal!! may God be w/ u all the tym.. :-* ok now i wanna add sumthing.. ok i kno this might not go w/ wut i said be4 but sense sum of u stated that a baby has a soul once the woman is pregnent.. and the baby-that has a soul- dies and be4 he/she gets baptized.. which also means they don't kno wuts right and wuts wrong then they atomaticly go to Heaven.. bcz 4 example they're lyk Adam and Eve.. they didn't kno wuts right and wuts wrong be4 they ate from the tree.. so if they hadn't then they wuda atomaticly went to Heaven right?... but wait i'm not making any sense here i mean sense the baby has a soul then he/she is stuck w/ the sin of Adam and Eve right? o boy am i confused.. i'm lost!!! :-\ ??? WOW NOW I'M REALLLLLY LOST!!!! plz help!! wait i'll ask my abouna abt this.. yay!! ;D
i asked my abouna a long time ago this its a good question , i remeber my priest tell , correct me if im wrong plzz , that a Baby that dies in his mothers womb go to heaven , but , blind because he wasnt baptized which i think that means he isnt worthy of seeing Gods glory
YOU ARE RIGHT... they didnt do wrong to go to hell, but they are not worthy to see God.
Thats wrong! What your saying is not in the Bible but is rather only man's fanciful speculations.Who are we to say that innocent babies are unworthy to see God.This is sheer arrogance and is doing nothing more than proclamating ideas that are highly offensive and unworthy of the true God.God is not some monster or tyrant up in Heaven who takes delight in tormenting little babies.Jesus actually said the kingdom of God is for the little children and we should not despise them in any way.Do you not remember the thief on the cross,the one who was not baptised,how Jesus told him that "today you will be with me in paradise".Do you not remember King Davids little baby child who died{even before the institution of baptism}and what Davids response was to those who questioned him?He said that the baby could not come back to him here on earth but that one day he would join the baby and see him again.I can say to you with full assurance that David is in Heaven as well as his child.Do you think it's too hard for the all powerful God to save a person who is not baptised,who never had the chance?Or is He just too mean and cruel to care about an insignificant unbaptized infant.The true God knows even the numbers of hairs on our heads,cares for the well being of all His creation,and desires that none should perish but that all should be saved and have everlasting life.He's not some mean God looking and waiting for any excuse to send little infants to Hell or to make them blind in Heaven.You said they were not worthy to see God,who made you worthy o man or woman,was it not the Grace of God as manifested in the life and death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.Is baptism more powerful than God?Does it have some magical power in and of itself?Or is it not God who gives it power and effigacy.God is Lord of all and is able to save all,even innocent infants who were not baptized.And He is not so cruel that He would blind them not allowing them to witness His glory,a glory that will last for eternity.
I got this information from my father of confession i didnt make this up , and i dont think he did because it is very realistc we never said GOd is a monster but the baby wasnt batized didnt recieve the body and blood or any of the stuff required for us to enter the kingdom of heaven and see GODs Glory
You make God dependant on human actions and make baptism and Holy communion more imortant than God Himself!These ordinaces were instituted by the Lord Jesus Himself not the church.They have not power or authority in and of themselves.The power belongs to God alone.It is dangerous to put God in a box and say He has to abide by the rules of the Church.He is Head of the Church.He can save with baptism and He can save without it.He can save with Holy communion and He can save without it.He is the one who saves.He is the power of baptism and Holy eucharist.THEY ARE NOTHING WITHOUT HIM.He saved people in the Old Testament without them and He can save people today without them if He so pleases.Did the thief on the cross get baptised or partake in the body and blood of Christ?No,yet God allowed him into Heaven based soely on grace.God can still do the same today and for us to say He cant to it {or wont} limits the power and majesty of God
ok i understand but still my father of confession wont lie to me and say it he would say im not to sure he didnt tell me this in person he told it to about 40 ppl he isnt going to say somthin without nowin wat he is gonna say in front of 40 ppl
He is undoubtably a good man and saying only what He believes to be right.I am only saying what I believe to be right.If you have another Coptic priest he might even disagree with both of us.The early church fathers were not even in agreement on every subject but what held them together was the bond of love;that indescribable,wonderful love of Christ. :) God bless you,I enjoyed disagreeing with you...lol... ;)
Sorry I missed all the "action" but very interesting questions... lol
I will start, by the baptism, in baptism you die with Christ, and you are resurrected after going under the water three times. Thus you die with Christ, and you rise with Christ... for the thief he died with Christ... and was baptized by his own blood, just like many of the church saint, who were martyred just because they believed while watching a saint being tortured... they were all baptized in their own blood...
For the Old Testament... God told Abraham to circumcise all his house hold, and him also... thus a way of baptism... and through the whole OT there are many ways of baptism, that God himself told them about... we cant forget the Israelites, going through the Red Sea, so another way of a symbolic baptism.
Now is God a Monster... hmm-good question, but NO, he is Just... he gave us commandments, and we need to follow them... he gave us things in life that we need to use. So many times people will think that God is a monster just because he is just. If you ever teach a class, or talk to your kids... if you are strict, and just they will think you are a monster, and that is how we some times view are father in heaven when he is strict and follow the rules...
Do babies go to hell? NO, NO, NO not even one baby will be found in hell. “There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:1-5) Now that is what God said himself…
One last thing, sorry, Priests don’t just say what they believe but what they were taught by the priest who were before them, and on, and on, until the time of the Apostles... so they are telling us what Christ would’ve told his Apostles and disciples
for the thief he died with Christ... and was baptized by his own blood, just like many of the church saint
He wasnt baptized in his own blood{thats a church tradition not taught in the Holy Bible but rather originated by men such as tertullian who said,"the blood of the martyers is the seed of the church"}.He was saved because of his faith in Christ.It's as simple as that.
Now is God a Monster
The true God is not a monster.The God of the Bible is true,just and full of mercy.The problem arises when men put tradition or human reasoning over the teachings of the Holy Bible and thus paint a picture of God that is neither fair nor accurate.
so another way of a symbolic baptism.
There are many types,shadows and symbols of baptism in the old testament but as is the case with christian baptism, these in and of themselves did not save anyone.It was God who saves His people.There were people who did not partake of these types and signs in the old testament who were nevertheless saved,and are in Heaven today.Rahab the harlot,Enoch,the people of Ninevah,etc are several examples.The one thing they had in common was faith.They were saved because they believed,trusted,feared the LORD.They were saved by the power of God without aid of any form of baptism.
God commands all men to be baptized,and He uses the outward form of baptism to convey inner spiritial grace;that is very true, but God is not bound to any form or ordinace and can accomplish His divine purpose using any means He chooses.We should never place God in a theological straightjacket and say He cant do this or that,FOR THE PLAIN TRUTH IS THAT HE CAN DO ANYTHING HE PLEASES.That includes being able to save infants{or even adults}even if they were unable to be baptized.Even our own "faith" does not save us but rather it also is only an intrument God has chosen to be the conduit that bridges the seperating gap between man and God.WE are all saved simply by the sheer mercy and grace and power of the good and great LORD God.He uses many"intruments" to impart grace to be sure{repentence,faith,baptism,Holy eucharist,etc.}but let us never forget that it is not these outward forms that save us but it is in fact ,the LORD Himself who saves us and makes these ordinances valid.What I am saying has been taught by many Orthodox theologians including Symeon the new theologian,the writer of the Macarius homily's{whoever he truly was,no one knows for sure}and several others.Just as Jesus said that the commandment of the Sabbath day and all of its requirements did not surpass the authority of God,but rather Jesus was "Lord of the Sabbath" so also the very commands of God,baptism,etc.,are not greater or have more authority than God Himself.God is beyond time and space and is not bound by any rule or physical restraint but is the all in all,perfect,powerful,complete,soveriegn, the eternal God.May all praise belong to Him ,unto all ages,time without end.
One last thing, sorry, Priests don’t just say what they believe but what they were taught by the priest who were before them, and on, and on, until the time of the Apostles... so they are telling us what Christ would’ve told his Apostles and disciples
Without being offensive,this statement is open to debate and questioned by much of the christian world.While it is true that the coptic church has contained many great men of God,and I hold these men and the Coptic Church in highest regard and with the deepest of respect,much of the christian world does not accept the Coptic claim that the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ and His holy Apostles has been infallibly transmitted and handed down over the centuries.I respect your point of view but I also humbly disagree with it.There is no need to say more,or to cause strife or hurt feelings,I only want to make clear where I am coming from when I made my earlier statement.As for Orthodox priests disagreeing on subjects pertaining to spiritual matters,they most certainly do;I can give you one example.I have read articles by one priest who claims non-orthodox christians are not saved while another respected priest has written just the opposite,teaching that these christians are truly the children of God.I can give you examples where the early church fathers did not even agree on certain spiritual topics.That is just a fact.
. So many times people will think that God is a monster just because he is just. If you ever teach a class, or talk to your kids... if you are strict, and just they will think you are a monster, and that is how we some times view are father in heaven when he is strict and follow the rules...
It is a stretch of the imagination to compare Gods discipline and loving correction with a vindictive act of retribution on a helpless baby.When God uses discipline to correct us He does so with the view of helping us to develop and grow in His Son Jesus Christ.He wants to prepare us and build us up so that we will be able to participate in His love and the wonderful plan He has for each of us.All discipline is painful for a season but it does not last forever but is only temporary; producing much fruit unto eternal life.To say that God will punish an innocent baby with eternal spiritual blindness is neither corrective discipline nor upbuilding of spiritual character but rather is a vindictive,hateful act that is not worthy or representative of the God of Heaven.It is not a matter of God being just,or our lack of understanding the mysterious workings of God but this act it is indeed contrary to the very nature of God Himself and is an insult to His Holy Name.
let me put it simple; these discussion have no end and nobody will agree, but there's one interesting quote from HH that i'd like to throw in the middle:
Orthodoxy is the shortest way to salvation, but it's NOT the only way
We don't know what happens to unborn babies who die, and it doesn't matter to us. All we know is God is just and mercifull.
Many words of wisdom!{Or should I say much wisdom in few words...lol}Thank you!May God continue to use you in His service and to be a blessing to His people.
WE are all saved simply by the sheer mercy and grace and power of the good and great LORD God
so here comes the next question; how do u view the salvation through the blood of Christ, if we are saved through the mercy and grace of God; in other words, what is the role of the blood of Christ (not meant in an offensive way; just curious about your concept of salvation ;))
When I talk about being saved by grace I'm actualy refering and including the precious Blood of Christ{also the life, burial and resurrection,etc}.I would dare say that we are very close in our understanding of salvation.Even our understanding of the role that "works" play in the divine process of salvation is not all that dissimiler, as it first may appear.My point earlier was not an attempt to disparrage "repentance,faith,and baptism",but rather to show that our salvation originates and flows out of the very heart of God.Without His kindness in sending His precious Son to die for us,without His first loving us{"this is love ,not that we loved God but that He first loved us,sending His only begotten son..."}then our faith and all human strivings are meaningless.They only have meaning and value because of Gods great kindness and love.
I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from...lol ;D :D:);)
I just want to add one thing: After looking over some of my earlier posts I realize I may appear rather harsh or argumentative.Please forgive me if I offended any of you ,that was not my intention.I leave alot to be desired when it comes to tactfully responding to certain theological issues...lol...I realize I am rather blunt and forceful at times.I ask your pardon.
Comments
GREAT QUESTION.. GREAT PPL ;D
Rina ;)
I think the minute a women is pregnant the baby has a spirit because whenever there is life there is a spirit. Now whether the baby goes to heaven or not is in the hands of God, and one thing we should remember is God is a merciful God and something like this would probably be dealt with alot of care by God, I think all we can do is pray for those babies that never make it. I hope that helps.
Pray for me...
C
-"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you" Jeremiah 1:5
I agree with Conqueror, I think the minute a baby/fetus is conceived it is a human being and therefore has a soul...
I dont know what where the baby would go but im sure that God is fair in His judgment
So ya I agree with angelofGOD
but everysingle time a question like this is asked, a bishop or my sunday school teacher will say, "let us worry about our selves and leave the judging to God. He is the fairest and most merciful of us all"
And another point, because I always do that with my Sunday school kids is, DO YOU KNOW GOD? All we know is God is fair, and just... thus we leave it to him to judge... once I was told that Gandhi is probably in Hell, because he was not baptize... well, I don’t know if he is in hell or Heaven... he is somewhere, I don’t know... so that is when I respond with, I'll tell you for sure, when I don’t see him in Heaven." Here is a Question for you, Where is your Great, great Grandfather? is he in hell... or heaven... you don’t know, thus you left the judging to God.... hope I helped
.
don't worry about it too much :)
yala salam
Your brother in Christ,
Michael
ok now i wanna add sumthing.. ok i kno this might not go w/ wut i said be4 but sense sum of u stated that a baby has a soul once the woman is pregnent.. and the baby-that has a soul- dies and be4 he/she gets baptized.. which also means they don't kno wuts right and wuts wrong then they atomaticly go to Heaven.. bcz 4 example they're lyk Adam and Eve.. they didn't kno wuts right and wuts wrong be4 they ate from the tree.. so if they hadn't then they wuda atomaticly went to Heaven right?... but wait i'm not making any sense here i mean sense the baby has a soul then he/she is stuck w/ the sin of Adam and Eve right? o boy am i confused.. i'm lost!!! :-\ ???
WOW NOW I'M REALLLLLY LOST!!!! plz help!! wait i'll ask my abouna abt this.. yay!! ;D
Rina ;)
plzz correct me if im wrong
GBU
Thats wrong! What your saying is not in the Bible but is rather only man's fanciful speculations.Who are we to say that innocent babies are unworthy to see God.This is sheer arrogance and is doing nothing more than proclamating ideas that are highly offensive and unworthy of the true God.God is not some monster or tyrant up in Heaven who takes delight in tormenting little babies.Jesus actually said the kingdom of God is for the little children and we should not despise them in any way.Do you not remember the thief on the cross,the one who was not baptised,how Jesus told him that "today you will be with me in paradise".Do you not remember King Davids little baby child who died{even before the institution of baptism}and what Davids response was to those who questioned him?He said that the baby could not come back to him here on earth but that one day he would join the baby and see him again.I can say to you with full assurance that David is in Heaven as well as his child.Do you think it's too hard for the all powerful God to save a person who is not baptised,who never had the chance?Or is He just too mean and cruel to care about an insignificant unbaptized infant.The true God knows even the numbers of hairs on our heads,cares for the well being of all His creation,and desires that none should perish but that all should be saved and have everlasting life.He's not some mean God looking and waiting for any excuse to send little infants to Hell or to make them blind in Heaven.You said they were not worthy to see God,who made you worthy o man or woman,was it not the Grace of God as manifested in the life and death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.Is baptism more powerful than God?Does it have some magical power in and of itself?Or is it not God who gives it power and effigacy.God is Lord of all and is able to save all,even innocent infants who were not baptized.And He is not so cruel that He would blind them not allowing them to witness His glory,a glory that will last for eternity.
father of confession
i didnt make this up , and i dont think
he did because it is very realistc
we never said GOd is a monster
but the baby wasnt batized
didnt recieve the body and
blood or any of the stuff required for
us to enter the kingdom of
heaven and see
GODs Glory
GBU
i understand
but still my father of confession wont
lie to me and say it
he would say im not to sure
he didnt tell me this in person
he told it to about 40 ppl
he isnt going to say somthin
without nowin
wat he is gonna say in front of 40 ppl
I will start, by the baptism, in baptism you die with Christ, and you are resurrected after going under the water three times. Thus you die with Christ, and you rise with Christ... for the thief he died with Christ... and was baptized by his own blood, just like many of the church saint, who were martyred just because they believed while watching a saint being tortured... they were all baptized in their own blood...
For the Old Testament... God told Abraham to circumcise all his house hold, and him also... thus a way of baptism... and through the whole OT there are many ways of baptism, that God himself told them about... we cant forget the Israelites, going through the Red Sea, so another way of a symbolic baptism.
Now is God a Monster... hmm-good question, but NO, he is Just... he gave us commandments, and we need to follow them... he gave us things in life that we need to use. So many times people will think that God is a monster just because he is just. If you ever teach a class, or talk to your kids... if you are strict, and just they will think you are a monster, and that is how we some times view are father in heaven when he is strict and follow the rules...
Do babies go to hell? NO, NO, NO not even one baby will be found in hell. “There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:1-5) Now that is what God said himself…
One last thing, sorry, Priests don’t just say what they believe but what they were taught by the priest who were before them, and on, and on, until the time of the Apostles... so they are telling us what Christ would’ve told his Apostles and disciples
But very good points, hope I helped
The true God is not a monster.The God of the Bible is true,just and full of mercy.The problem arises when men put tradition or human reasoning over the teachings of the Holy Bible and thus paint a picture of God that is neither fair nor accurate.
There are many types,shadows and symbols of baptism in the old testament but as is the case with christian baptism, these in and of themselves did not save anyone.It was God who saves His people.There were people who did not partake of these types and signs in the old testament who were nevertheless saved,and are in Heaven today.Rahab the harlot,Enoch,the people of Ninevah,etc are several examples.The one thing they had in common was faith.They were saved because they believed,trusted,feared the LORD.They were saved by the power of God without aid of any form of baptism.
God commands all men to be baptized,and He uses the outward form of baptism to convey inner spiritial grace;that is very true, but God is not bound to any form or ordinace and can accomplish His divine purpose using any means He chooses.We should never place God in a theological straightjacket and say He cant do this or that,FOR THE PLAIN TRUTH IS THAT HE CAN DO ANYTHING HE PLEASES.That includes being able to save infants{or even adults}even if they were unable to be baptized.Even our own "faith" does not save us but rather it also is only an intrument God has chosen to be the conduit that bridges the seperating gap between man and God.WE are all saved simply by the sheer mercy and grace and power of the good and great LORD God.He uses many"intruments" to impart grace to be sure{repentence,faith,baptism,Holy eucharist,etc.}but let us never forget that it is not these outward forms that save us but it is in fact ,the LORD Himself who saves us and makes these ordinances valid.What I am saying has been taught by many Orthodox theologians including Symeon the new theologian,the writer of the Macarius homily's{whoever he truly was,no one knows for sure}and several others.Just as Jesus said that the commandment of the Sabbath day and all of its requirements did not surpass the authority of God,but rather Jesus was "Lord of the Sabbath" so also the very commands of God,baptism,etc.,are not greater or have more authority than God Himself.God is beyond time and space and is not bound by any rule or physical restraint but is the all in all,perfect,powerful,complete,soveriegn, the eternal God.May all praise belong to Him ,unto all ages,time without end.
We don't know what happens to unborn babies who die, and it doesn't matter to us. All we know is God is just and mercifull.
Hos Erof,
Many words of wisdom!{Or should I say much wisdom in few words...lol}Thank you!May God continue to use you in His service and to be a blessing to His people.
i was just wondered about a thing u said: so here comes the next question; how do u view the salvation through the blood of Christ, if we are saved through the mercy and grace of God; in other words, what is the role of the blood of Christ (not meant in an offensive way; just curious about your concept of salvation ;))
When I talk about being saved by grace I'm actualy refering and including the precious Blood of Christ{also the life, burial and resurrection,etc}.I would dare say that we are very close in our understanding of salvation.Even our understanding of the role that "works" play in the divine process of salvation is not all that dissimiler, as it first may appear.My point earlier was not an attempt to disparrage "repentance,faith,and baptism",but rather to show that our salvation originates and flows out of the very heart of God.Without His kindness in sending His precious Son to die for us,without His first loving us{"this is love ,not that we loved God but that He first loved us,sending His only begotten son..."}then our faith and all human strivings are meaningless.They only have meaning and value because of Gods great kindness and love.
I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from...lol ;D :D :) ;)
I just want to add one thing: After looking over some of my earlier posts I realize I may appear rather harsh or argumentative.Please forgive me if I offended any of you ,that was not my intention.I leave alot to be desired when it comes to tactfully responding to certain theological issues...lol...I realize I am rather blunt and forceful at times.I ask your pardon.