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What's wrong with us??
I have a small story to share.
I live in a part of the world where there are no Coptic Orthodox Churches.
The next thing closest to us are the Eastern Orthodox Churches. I attended a Catholic liturgy a few weeks ago, and the priest there told me that the Russian Orthodox Church will be praying at his parish next Saturday (Yesterday).
I woke up early, drove to the Church with my family and we were the first in the Church.
I asked the priest nicely, during the vespers, if it was possible for us to have Holy Communion? We were Coptic, and there were no Orthodox Churches around.
He wasn't happy. Here is a quick list of problems he had:
* We are heretical
* We are not the same as them.
* I asked him what the differences between us and them were, and he said it was too complex to explain.
* He agreed to give me Holy Communion ONCE, but said that I need to study a bit more theology in order to be saved in the Russian Orthodox Church.
How are we heretical? What's wrong with us??
Apparently, no matter how miaphysitic we are, we are still monophysitic to them.
Secondly, I was astonished by the amount of Russian being used. This particular Church is in the North Eastern part of France. The liturgy lasted for 4 hours.
My questions are as follows:
* The Coptic Church is so isolated - is it worth us remaining Coptic? I mean, if I were to say that I am Coptic and behave as a Coptic Christian, I would forever remain alone and have no Coptic Community. If I want to leave the Coptic Church, what would be the best Church to go to??
* Its awful that other Orthodox Churches see us as heretical. No matter what I say, or do, or sign up to with them, we are not "good enough" in their eyes.
* What did the Coptic Orthodox have in mind for the Coptic faithful living outside of Egypt?
I live in a part of the world where there are no Coptic Orthodox Churches.
The next thing closest to us are the Eastern Orthodox Churches. I attended a Catholic liturgy a few weeks ago, and the priest there told me that the Russian Orthodox Church will be praying at his parish next Saturday (Yesterday).
I woke up early, drove to the Church with my family and we were the first in the Church.
I asked the priest nicely, during the vespers, if it was possible for us to have Holy Communion? We were Coptic, and there were no Orthodox Churches around.
He wasn't happy. Here is a quick list of problems he had:
* We are heretical
* We are not the same as them.
* I asked him what the differences between us and them were, and he said it was too complex to explain.
* He agreed to give me Holy Communion ONCE, but said that I need to study a bit more theology in order to be saved in the Russian Orthodox Church.
How are we heretical? What's wrong with us??
Apparently, no matter how miaphysitic we are, we are still monophysitic to them.
Secondly, I was astonished by the amount of Russian being used. This particular Church is in the North Eastern part of France. The liturgy lasted for 4 hours.
My questions are as follows:
* The Coptic Church is so isolated - is it worth us remaining Coptic? I mean, if I were to say that I am Coptic and behave as a Coptic Christian, I would forever remain alone and have no Coptic Community. If I want to leave the Coptic Church, what would be the best Church to go to??
* Its awful that other Orthodox Churches see us as heretical. No matter what I say, or do, or sign up to with them, we are not "good enough" in their eyes.
* What did the Coptic Orthodox have in mind for the Coptic faithful living outside of Egypt?
Comments
An Eastern Orthodox Church that may see us as Orthodox is the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Church. I'm not sure if there are any in France to help you out though. I'm an American, so I can fairly help you on that regard.
Perhaps if you contact Fr. Peter Theodore Farrington of Great Britain, he might be of more help to find something for you in France. Would you like to contact him? He might probably know not just Coptic Churches, but any Oriental Orthodox church in the area for you.
The Russian priest is being told by his bishop what to do. At times, they're just ignorant and they have no other reason to offer you communion except at the orders of the bishop of that diocese. Best to avoid the Church, or if you like, just pray there, but do not trouble him with communion questions.
God bless.
i tried this website:
http://eocf.free.fr/sites.htm
but it has some out of date links, and i only found eastern orthodox churches.
try this instead:
http://www.chretiensorientaux.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=41&Itemid=65
that is, if u are in france.
as for persuading others to accept u, it often takes a lot of patience and love.
but don't give up.
may God bless yr search
Schism is what prevent us (Eastern and Oriental) to have mutual communion.
I didn't know that being Coptic Orthodox would even make me an outcast amongst other Orthodox Christians..
To answer your question, I live in the middle of nowhere - so there's no Armenian/Eritrean/Sudanese/Syrian orthodox Churches around. Please be realistic guys.
What's worse is that even if we were not seen as heretical and were accepted by the Greeks and Russian Orthodox Churches, their liturgies are very odd. The chanting there isn't exactly moving or encouraging. Its a bit like an opera. A few people sing, and the rest just stand there in the cold.
Concerning the Catholics, lol - they look at us as if we are some weird cult with a "wannabe" Pope. The majority of them do not even know we have a Pope, and when they find out that there are 2 Popes, well, they have the same reaction we have when that wacko Max Michel decided to become a Pope.
They have no idea on our history, our theology or anything.
Why am I saying this is that EVEN if we end up in the Catholic Church (on a part-time basis) - the congregation will ALWAYS look at us in a strange way, as if we're trying to destroy their Church by "creating" our own Pope.
None of the behaviour of all these CHurches really encourages integration and Unity, and its so unchristian, its hard to believe that the head of the Church really is God.
How can God have anything to do with a bunch of Churches that are continually attacking each other, and not even recognising the validity of each other's sacraments???
Did our Church leaders ever bother thinking on the effect of this stupid division on the lives of the congregation. The only ones benefiting from this self-righteous attitude of "we are right and holding onto the truth" are the Church theological text books.
As for the living members of the Church, those who need some kind of community, fellowship, or engagement in the sacraments (communion/confession etc) - they are the ones who will suffer the most.
Whilst all of this is going on... do you think that our population(s) are increasing or decreasing?
We are decreasing. We are unwittingly killing ourselves.
I wish a bishop to read my post and explain to me what on earth he had in mind for Orthodox Coptic Christians living outside of Egypt to do when they have no Coptic Church around them?
I spent 4 hours listening to Russian liturgy without any text books, nothing. I did not gain anything. We cannot keep on going on like this: Orthodoxy should not even be restricted to your nationality; but unfortunately, it is. I think, personally, that Catholicism is probably the right attitude, but they need some Orthodoxy in terms of their rites, their dogmas and theology.
I think we look stupid, as Churches, hanging on to our differences and living in division, no matter who is right, we've all lost.
And why are you disrespecting their liturgical traditions? Have you heard the liturgical traditions of our sister churches.
Have you contacted the sister churches to know they're not near you?
You should relax, do some research, and stop deriding other traditions like its your problem. You have to learn that sometimes their problem is their problem, not your's. At the same time, just because they're ignorant of the Coptic church doesn't mean we have to change. I have no shame of my church, of her liturgical traditions, of my name even who many derided as a female name. It's their problem, not mine, that I have a blessed name "Mina". So why should you bother to say who or what to change? Who are you to say this? Get off your high horse, learn a bit of humility, do some research, make a few phone calls, and live your life out with God as best as possible without worrying about what others think about you or your church.
I'm having difficulty understanding what your problem is exactly. Why are you do fed up? This isn't something new. You didn't know that we are not in communion with Greeks and Russians? Some people in our church see them as heretical as well. The feeling is mutual.
And why are you disrespecting their liturgical traditions? Have you heard the liturgical traditions of our sister churches.
Have you contacted the sister churches to know they're not near you?
You should relax, do some research, and stop deriding other traditions like its your problem. You have to learn that sometimes their problem is their problem, not your's. At the same time, just because they're ignorant of the Coptic church doesn't mean we have to change. I have no shame of my church, of her liturgical traditions, of my name even who many derided as a female name. It's their problem, not mine, that I have a blessed name "Mina". So why should you bother to say who or what to change? Who are you to say this? Get off your high horse, learn a bit of humility, do some research, make a few phone calls, and live your life out with God as best as possible without worrying about what others think about you or your church.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you kindly give me a 1 line summary?
All I said was I'm fed up of other Orthodox Churches treating me as a heretic or my Church as a heretic. Our church has encouraged us to go to other Orthodox Churches IN THE EVENT that our Church or sister churches are not present. They are NOT present where I am.
This schism between the churches is literally killing.
What does this have to do with me getting off or on my high horse? What does that have to do with the problem?
I'm not deriding other traditions. Saying that the chanting in the Russian Church is not appealing to me nor can I understand Russian is not an attack on the Russian Church.
Are u female?
Oriental orthodoxy is the most pure and undefiled, Uncorrupted Christian faith. However, the Eastern Orthodox are also orthodox because through their corruption of faith that occurred at Chalcedon, God had mercy on them and they were subsequently redeemed in later councils upon realizing we were correct in not accepting compromise.
Don't feel distressed or despair. Oriental orthodoxy is the living icon of Christ himself, who himself was misunderstood, called a blasphemer and madman, however later recognized as king and God. This is the mission of the church. To live his suffering; even if this suffering is from fellow christians-To commune with Him in such a mystical way. A struggling church supported by the church triumphant in paradise.
Perhaps this can give you some rest. However, our faith shouldn't need prophecies and miracles to establish its truth.
Here are a few prophecies against Chalcedon by some holy men years leading up to the corruption that was to take place.
http://www.lsocs.co.uk/plerophories.php
I want to reiterate that we the oriental orthodox accept the Byzantines as orthodox. Chalcedon, however, was a corruption of the faith that God in his mercy redeemed them from.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you kindly give me a 1 line summary?
If it's God's will, we will unite. Don't waste your time worrying about it. You can't force union on churches that don't desire it. That's not all you said, but assuming that's all what you said, don't be fed up with it. Stay away from them if they don't welcome you. Shake the dust off your feet and move on. The gates of Hades will never prevail against the Church. Thus, those who do not desire to heal the schism, they will be the ones with the problem, not us. You said earlier:
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=14334.msg163827#msg163827 date=1363605523]
What's worse is that even if we were not seen as heretical and were accepted by the Greeks and Russian Orthodox Churches, their liturgies are very odd. The chanting there isn't exactly moving or encouraging. Its a bit like an opera. A few people sing, and the rest just stand there in the cold.
If you cannot see how arrogant this sounds, then you need to learn a bit of etiquette. You make it sound like even if we unite, the liturgical traditions will be a problem. But if you know anything about the diversity of the Oriental Orthodox Church, this was never a problem.
But if all your problem is is that you're not comfortable with the liturgical tradition, then this is your personal problem, and you didn't make it sound like that before. This isn't a problem for the Orthodox Church as a whole, but your problem now.
Furthermore, you write:
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=14334.msg163827#msg163827 date=1363605523]
To answer your question, I live in the middle of nowhere - so there's no Armenian/Eritrean/Sudanese/Syrian orthodox Churches around. Please be realistic guys.
Excuse me for not knowing where you live. I'm sorry for being unrealistic. I should have known you gave me your address in your last message. Kindly show me where that is. I seem to have trouble reading.
I assume by saying this, you also contacted other sister churches to find out truly that they're no where near you. No.
If it's God's will, we will unite. Don't waste your time worrying about it. You can't force union on churches that don't desire it.
Thank you so much Mina Siliman for caring about me. I appreciate it. However, I was not really "worrying" about it. I was explaining its disasterous affects on Copts who are isolated away from Egypt. Who are you to tell me to stop worrying about anything? Thanks, but that would be another month wasted without Holy Communion. That doesn't solve my problem. Like I said, its attitudes like this that I find annoying: You tell us that the gates of hades will not prevail over our Church, but a fat lot of good that does!!?? WHO CARES! We are isolated out of all this bicking so theologians, like yourself, can feel that we are the "unaltered", "untouched", "So pure" version of Orthodoxy. The only ones who gain in this quest to remain SO pure are the Coptic Theologians.
If you are living outside of Egypt, wishing to have ANY sort of Orthodoxy / Christian Community, you are dreaming.
All I was saying Mina, was that EVEN if we had unity with the Russians, I'd end up going to their liturgy and not understanding a word of it anyway. Therefore, Unity with other Orthodox Churches may have some merits, but if its outside Greece, Russia, Bulgaria or even Romania, we are not going to be participating in the liturgy.
And yes, I found it like Opera. Did I say Opera was bad? No! I said its a bit like an Opera.. only a few people sing and the rest watch. What's so bad about that? Yes, its a personal issue then I have with opera singing in the Church.
Actually, saying it is like an opera is a complement! They were singing beautifully, but there's NO way you'd be able to sing with them unless you had an amazing voice. Oh thank you Mina. I am already suffering being Coptic Orthodox and knowing you are also Coptic Orthodox makes me feel a whole lot better.
Wow. How many people like you are there in the Church?? Do you have anything else to add? I know where I live, and I can tell u that there are NO orthodox churches there.
Its a small village!
Thank you so much for responding Mina. Please give others a chance now.
Zoxasi, don't be distressed. There are many believers over the ages, who in many regions felt despair, who felt they were on the wrong side of things, without churches, communities and even a strong faith to call their own.
Oriental orthodoxy is the most pure and undefiled, Uncorrupted Christian faith. However, the Eastern Orthodox are also orthodox because through their corruption of faith that occurred at Chalcedon, God had mercy on them and they were subsequently redeemed in later councils upon realizing we were correct in not accepting compromise.
Don't feel distressed or despair. Oriental orthodoxy is the living icon of Christ himself, who himself was misunderstood, called a blasphemer and madman, however later recognized as king and God. This is the mission of the church. To live his suffering; even if this suffering is from fellow christians-To commune with Him in such a mystical way. A struggling church supported by the church triumphant in paradise.
Perhaps this can give you some rest. However, our faith shouldn't need prophecies and miracles to establish its truth.
Here are a few prophecies against Chalcedon by some holy men years leading up to the corruption that was to take place.
http://www.lsocs.co.uk/plerophories.php
I want to reiterate that we the oriental orthodox accept the Byzantines as orthodox. Chalcedon, however, was a corruption of the faith that God in his mercy redeemed them from.
This is all well and good, sir, but as I said to Mina, the only ones who gain are yourselves (the theological folk) who are far and few between. The countless number of Copts do not really care for such differences. Im not saying that these differences are NOT important. But what is MORE important is the suffering caused by the nuances between what we believe and what the Chalcedonians believe.
I'm not at all trivializing our theological differences. Let me say that there are many things in the Roman Catholic Church that i disagree with that I cannot accept such as purgatory,or immaculate conception, or the guilt they have over the original sin - but between Orthodox Christians, I find the differences not so drastic, yet the punishment incurred because of these differences far exceed any gain we could have.
What is the point of saying we have the right faith if "we" are dying because we have the "right" faith? I have not had Holy Communion in the Coptic Church in AGES (3 months at least) - and I do not know when I can have it.
What good does that do??
What did the Coptic Church fathers have in mind for us who are living outside of Egypt and far from any sister Church?
If you cannot see how arrogant this sounds, then you need to learn a bit of etiquette. You make it sound like even if we unite, the liturgical traditions will be a problem. But if you know anything about the diversity of the Oriental Orthodox Church, this was never a problem.
Oh? Is that arrogant for you? Have u seen this?
http://www.tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=;action=display;threadid=14338;boardseen=1
Its of a Coptic Clergy pushing and embarassing a young guy in Church. Is he also lacking etiquette?
Do you think this is arrogant? But you probably want to make the priests look good and as usual, the ordinary folk like me you are happy to attack.
[quote author=minasoliman link=topic=14334.msg163841#msg163841]
If you cannot see how arrogant this sounds, then you need to learn a bit of etiquette. You make it sound like even if we unite, the liturgical traditions will be a problem. But if you know anything about the diversity of the Oriental Orthodox Church, this was never a problem.
Oh? Is that arrogant for you? Have u seen this?
http://www.tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=;action=display;threadid=14338;boardseen=1
Its of a Coptic Clergy pushing and embarassing a young guy in Church. Is he also lacking etiquette?
Do you think this is arrogant? But you probably want to make the priests look good and as usual, the ordinary folk like me you are happy to attack.
I'm not going to waste my time. Obviously, you make this all about you you you, and you do not seek to understand. This has nothing to do with "making priests look good" and that is such a stupid statement to make. I make no differentiation between clergy or "ordinary folk" when they do or say stupid things.
No offense intended, mind I ask you why you live somewhere where there is no Coptic Church (or at least Oriental Orthodox)? It has always been my personal opinion that I would not pursue a career or education or whatever it may be, that could jeopardize my priorities.. The church has widely expanded all over the world, and you would find at least one church in most countries in their main cities (at least in general)...
Zoxsasi,
No offense intended, mind I ask you why you live somewhere where there is no Coptic Church (or at least Oriental Orthodox)? It has always been my personal opinion that I would not pursue a career or education or whatever it may be, that could jeopardize my priorities.. The church has widely expanded all over the world, and you would find at least one church in most countries in their main cities (at least in general)...
Unfortunately, careers, houses, jobs etc are not in the most obvious of locations. Yes, having a nice Coptic Community with people like Mina Siliman around would be great, but unfortunately job-wise does not permit this.
It seems that unity between the OO & EO wouldn't solve your problem anyway -- since the "opera" style worship is too great a turn-off for you.
Unfortunately, I see only two options for you:
1) Petition for a Coptic Orthodox parish in your area.
2) Move to an area with a Coptic Orthodox parish.
If you are "dying", as you say, from this, then you have to doing something to live.
Zoxsasi,
It seems that unity between the OO & EO wouldn't solve your problem anyway -- since the "opera" style worship is too great a turn-off for you.
Unfortunately, I see only two options for you:
1) Petition for a Coptic Orthodox parish in your area.
2) Move to an area with a Coptic Orthodox parish.
If you are "dying", as you say, from this, then you have to doing something to live.
:)
In times like this, our mode of finding God must take on a more ascetic method. Physical community becomes a commodity. Still, since we are Christians, Christian unity extends above time and space. We are united in so far as we pray for each other, and are of like mind. So make this point a priority. Since, as of now, you are a Copt, remember the church in your prayers. Pray for her Patriarch, Metropolitans, Bishops, Priests, Monks, Deacons, Laity and all the faithful. Remember her teachers, her theologians, and her servants. In so doing, you enter into a greater unity.
As for finding a physical community to worship: As an ecumenist, I believe it makes no difference between the EO and the OO. As Dr. Bebawi said, "Go find God." So seek his face. Do not be distracted by names, rites, or opera. Seek God diligently. Seek him first in your heart, and bring him to life in a community. I take it you are married? Live the Christian community in the family which God has given you to be priest over!
As for unity: Even though I am a staunch ecumenist, I know that the heirarchs of the church are often not bold enough to make the move to lift the anathemas. Unity, in my opinion, will become realized in the hands of the vigilante. Those people who refuse to be restricted from worship with their brothers because of politics. Some churches are already moving in this direction. For example, in the Americas, Metropolitan Philip has instructed his priests that they are o give communion to an oriental orthodox who wishes.
Soon, unity will be attained. Not because of a council, but because people are tired of being told "we have the same faith, but there is politics." Politics is heresy!
Ray
and BTW, the Russians aren't even involved in the dialogues, they're a whole dialogue by themselves. So that Russian priest was just doing his duty because we haven't even broken the ice with them yet.
The way I see your situation is that there is only a Russian church in your village and they wouldn't accept you.
Well, even though this is a hard situation to be in, especially since you are longing for communion, maybe you should take it as a sign from God. It maybe that God is testing your faith. Maybe He wants to see if you will hold on to your faith or will you go Buzurk. Maybe he's giving you a retreat from communion for a while if you were abusing it previously. Maybe, he wants to make sure you are taking it in a worthy manner. (please don't take this as if i'm judging who you are or your character. I'm just saying. In the end, I am the first who needs repentance to be worthy for communion).
I feel that you need to pray about this situation as much as possible and do not despair. I know that this has been repeated a lot, but just do it constantly and see what God will do for you. "He who endures to the end will be saved." (Matt 10:22, 24:13, Mk 13:13)
Also, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation..." (James 1:12)
Anyways,
God be with you.
May he accept our fasting through your prayers and the prayers of the saints.
...However, the Eastern Orthodox are also orthodox because through their corruption of faith that occurred at Chalcedon, God had mercy on them and they were subsequently redeemed in later councils upon realizing we were correct in not accepting compromise.
... Here are a few prophecies against Chalcedon by some holy men years leading up to the corruption that was to take place.
http://www.lsocs.co.uk/plerophories.php
I want to reiterate that we the oriental orthodox accept the Byzantines as orthodox. Chalcedon, however, was a corruption of the faith that God in his mercy redeemed them from.
Dear Brother Orthodoxy,
With all respect, but this is nonsense.
Why are you imputing something that don't exist.
We DO think that Chalcedon is right.
How would you feel if I would said: "Oriental Orthodox were subsequently redeemed later upon realizing Eastern Orthodox were correct".
This is simply not truth.
From a historical perspective, take a look at the Council of Constantinople! The council almost LITERALLY UNDID Chalcedon!
As much of an ecumenist I am, it must be noted that Chalcedon is not even in agreement with the fifth council (held as ecumenical by the EO themselves). Chalcedon also was politically driven, and wandered far from the Cyrillian formula. Constantinople 553 was held to right that wrong, and to re-interpret Chalcedon in a Cyrillian way. Even the Reverend Fr. John Behr of St. Vladimir's seminary acknowledges that Chalcedon did not maintain the original patristic formula for the nature of Christ.[li]The Letter of Ibas (which was considered Orthodox in Chalcedon) was later rejected as heretical in Constantinople! This is not opinion. This is fact![/li]
[li]Theodore of Mopsuestia who's formula was used in Chalcedon was later anathemetized in Constantinople. This is not opinion. This is fact![/li]
The EO are Orthodox because of Constantinople 553. This is where the wrongs of Chalcedon were corrected.
Raymond
You are out in the middle of nowhere Zoxsasi. I think of the desert fathers and what did they do about Holy communion? How often did they take it? Your faith may have to be similar to theirs as it was their chose to be where they were.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163838#msg163838 date=1363648663]
...However, the Eastern Orthodox are also orthodox because through their corruption of faith that occurred at Chalcedon, God had mercy on them and they were subsequently redeemed in later councils upon realizing we were correct in not accepting compromise.
... Here are a few prophecies against Chalcedon by some holy men years leading up to the corruption that was to take place.
http://www.lsocs.co.uk/plerophories.php
I want to reiterate that we the oriental orthodox accept the Byzantines as orthodox. Chalcedon, however, was a corruption of the faith that God in his mercy redeemed them from.
Dear Brother Orthodoxy,
With all respect, but this is nonsense.
Why are you imputing something that don't exist.
We DO think that Chalcedon is right.
How would you feel if I would said: "Oriental Orthodox were subsequently redeemed later upon realizing Eastern Orthodox were correct".
This is simply not truth.
Dear, Servos
Are you an Eastern Orthodox Christian? I value your input. I mean this without any sense triumphalism or degradation.
I do no wish to get into a debate about Chalcedon and its errors because it suffices that thousands of forums, articles & books already cover polemics pertaining to this bitter moment in history.
You are on an Oriental Orthodox forum; did you expect to hear pleasant things about Chalcedon and its errors?
Would I expect to hear pleasant things about St Dioscorus, Lamp of orthodoxy, on EO forums?
These are the prophecies of holy men to the corruption which occurred. And every word (there are many more) they prophesied, occurred to the letter. Are we to avoid this?
Are we to avoid that the formula of the heretics was adopted at Chalcedon?
Are we to avoid that St Dioscorus, Lamp of Orthodoxy was deposed
for no good reason? The EO wont find a single heresy in any of his writings.
Are we to avoid that Leo was motivated on many levels in his desire for supremacy, theological eminence & divided the entire church with repercussions lasting to this day?
What exactly is the nonsense I'm speaking of?
If in recent times Chalcedonian authors like Fathers John Romanides, Richard Price, et al, recognize the Orthodoxy of St Dioscorus, what are we to say of the 1500 year old EO tradition that says he's an Arch-Heretic?
Either the Chalcedonian fathers were wrong or today's fathers are. Choose one.
With all the Chalcedonian persecution against the Oriental Orthodox & with all the false polemics propagated for 1500 years, our fathers still had the love and discernment to accept your Orthodoxy, refusing to rebaptize & rechrismate Chalcedonians-read St Severus' condemnation against those who rechristmate Chalcedonians.
The Oriental Orthodox church has always maintained a theology of love, not a militant theology that sought to divide.
We don't expect the EO to drop Chalcedon. This isn't our point of contention. The oriental Orthodox view the councils differently than the EO, unfortunately.
Whereas councils sought to reaffirm the faith and heal schisms in our books, they sought to reaffirm the faith and open gaping wounds to the detriment of the church at Chalcedon.
This is history and these are facts.
The Chalcedonians are Orthodox . But that doesn't mean we engage in revisionist history, rewriting the books in order to unite over new lies, compounding & creating new schisms.
One thing the EO have exceeded us in is their Orthopraxia, I will avow. We have much to learn from them in that regard. Organization, a return to education & a host of other things are slowly making their way back in the Coptic Orthodox Church. Other Oriental Orthodox churches don't suffer from this problem. Islam has set us back centuries, unfortunately.
But a truth & history that is uncompromised, undefiled by anything can only be found in Oriental Orthodoxy.
Unfortunately many youth are too enamored by the organization and beauty of EO churches to remember that. But this doesn't bother me, so long as we don't rewrite history and ascribe intentions to some 'fathers' that they themselves didn't posses in the first place. I, too, visit EO churches & benefit from their spiritual writings.
Lets end this discussion here. The EO have many hurdles to overcome in recognizing our Orthodoxy, something the Oriental Orthodox will gladly impute to their EO brethren.
I'm an ecumenist, but truth is truth and Orthodoxy is one. I wish to see the titles Oriental & Eastern dropped one day.
God bless, brother Servos, and pray for me this Lent.
Servos,
From a historical perspective, take a look at the Council of Constantinople! The council almost LITERALLY UNDID Chalcedon!
As much of an ecumenist I am, it must be noted that Chalcedon is not even in agreement with the fifth council (held as ecumenical by the EO themselves). Chalcedon also was politically driven, and wandered far from the Cyrillian formula. Constantinople 553 was held to right that wrong, and to re-interpret Chalcedon in a Cyrillian way. Even the Reverend Fr. John Behr of St. Vladimir's seminary acknowledges that Chalcedon did not maintain the original patristic formula for the nature of Christ.[li]The Letter of Ibas (which was considered Orthodox in Chalcedon) was later rejected as heretical in Constantinople! This is not opinion. This is fact![/li]
[li]Theodore of Mopsuestia who's formula was used in Chalcedon was later anathemetized in Constantinople. This is not opinion. This is fact![/li]
The EO are Orthodox because of Constantinople 553. This is where the wrongs of Chalcedon were corrected.
Raymond
Dear Brother ReturnOrthodoxy, :)
It is very simplified as you presented. You read it from your own perspective, and I have nothing against it. Just, I think, that we Easterns know better what are we believe. The same for you.
The problem exist and since Chalcedon we are in schism. Until today.
We believe in One church, but there is two Patriarchs of Alexandria.
That is fact.
Certainly that in 5th century we did not understand you, maybe you did not understand us. Maybe there was political reasons, etc.
But I think that now, if we want progress, we need to try to understand one another from another perspective, not from our own. :)
Does Oriental Orthodox Church accept Fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople 553)?
How much I know answer is: no.
If the things are as you said, after 553 we would be again one church. But we are not.
Just for the record. I admire a lot and have big respect for Coptic Orthodox Church and other Oriental Churches. I am great admirer of His Holiness Pope Tawadros II. I love Copts as a nation and I know how much blood you shed for Christian faith until now.
Dear, Servos
Are you an Eastern Orthodox Christian?
Yes :)
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
What exactly is the nonsense I'm speaking of?
That the Easterns reinterpreted Chalcedon.
We should be realistic and try to avoid to input something to Eastern Orth. that does not exist.
If we had reinterpreted Chalcedon we would be one church now, but we are not.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
You are on an Oriental Orthodox forum; did you expect to hear pleasant things about Chalcedon and its errors?
I know this is Oriental Orthodox Forum, and I do not expect to hear anything good about Chalcedon. :)
I never reacted as you know. I just reacted when I read that you said that we change our view at Chalcedon.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
With all the Chalcedonian persecution against the Oriental Orthodox
I am deeply sorry for that. But maybe some Greek on the forum is better address.
Serbs enter the Church thousand years after Copts, and 500 years after Chalcedon. And we always have sympathy for Copts.
But still, I am really sorry for all Coptic victims in Byzantine period.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
The Oriental Orthodox church has always maintained a theology of love, not a militant theology that sought to divide.
I know. Thank you for that.
I LOVE the EO church. In fact, I am a great admirer of all things EO. Please don't take my post offensivley. I LOVE THE EO :D
Servos,
I LOVE the EO church. In fact, I am a great admirer of all things EO. Please don't take my post offensivley. I LOVE THE EO :D
Thank you my Brother,
I also do love Copts and other Orthodox Christians.
:)
Isn't there a French or French-Coptic Orthodox eparchy under the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate?
http://www.france-copte.net/
Not sure if there are any parishes close to Zoxasi but this link is worth a try: http://www.france-copte.net/news/annuaire-des-eglises/france
Cheers,
Andrew
P.S. I don't know any French so apologies if this info is useless (I had my friend Google Translate helping me)!
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
Dear, Servos
Are you an Eastern Orthodox Christian?
Yes :)
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
What exactly is the nonsense I'm speaking of?
That the Easterns reinterpreted Chalcedon.
We should be realistic and try to avoid to input something to Eastern Orth. that does not exist.
If we had reinterpreted Chalcedon we would be one church now, but we are not.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
You are on an Oriental Orthodox forum; did you expect to hear pleasant things about Chalcedon and its errors?
I know this is Oriental Orthodox Forum, and I do not expect to hear anything good about Chalcedon. :)
I never reacted as you know. I just reacted when I read that you said that we change our view at Chalcedon.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
With all the Chalcedonian persecution against the Oriental Orthodox
I am deeply sorry for that. But maybe some Greek on the forum is better address.
Serbs enter the Church thousand years after Copts, and 500 years after Chalcedon. And we always have sympathy for Copts.
But still, I am really sorry for all Coptic victims in Byzantine period.
[quote author=Orthodoxy link=topic=14334.msg163871#msg163871 date=1363730597]
The Oriental Orthodox church has always maintained a theology of love, not a militant theology that sought to divide.
I know. Thank you for that.
You're a good person, Servos, with a good heart. Continue to pray for unity and understanding. Pray for me