Ok this is my last comment about this post, no more arguing about it. And sorry that I replied late, i was kinda busy.
In my opinion DATING is not wrong, I need to get to know the person before i get married and at one point i dont want to put my future family in the risk of divorce, Yes some ppl can get married from ARRANGE marriages and succeed, but i know that thing is not for me. Peronally I think I can date without getting into sexual contact with my other partner, and thats how it is from where i came from.. they dated but didnt even hold hands! it is all about self control and how ur parents raised you and also traditions.
The bible doesnt mention about dating saying its wrong but it mentions getting involved sexual is wrong.
Thats it. I enjoyed replying to this posts, interesting opinions to hear, let me move on and reply to new posts lol. God Bless.
i got just one last ? that someone had already asked before if u have the resistance to sustain from sexual contact while dating... y cant u have that same self control to resist from dating? it doesnt make sense to me plus... in case u havent noticed... most ppl on this discussion agree with dating if u r going to get engaged... but not if ur in ur teen years and u have not yet made urself clear about wut stage ur talking about...
and no, the bible does not mention anything about dating... but then again, i have a hard time believing dating existed when they were still making betrothals... dating may not lead to sexual contact, but what about the lustful thoughts that occur and the temptations that may be from within urself or from outer society... u can never guarantee urself.
and if your not egyptian, just for future reference, hardly ANY of us have arranged marriages... when we reach the proper age and fall in true love with someone, we are then able to date that person so the process of engagment may take place. if u have not yet read the past posts, i ask u that u please do, and then state ur opinion.
8) i just read some of the openions in this forum and i would like to add mine .. i spent most of my life in egypt and lived outside egypt for less than 3 years ... i understand that most of you people out here were born or lived the significant part of your lives in the west and got affected by the life style ... some participants talked about egypt as if it is dark age country (if people see two people of opposite sex hugging they might be put in jail ) this might be true but again it doesn't happen for many reasons but that would be out of the context ... the main issue was dating the meaning/purpose and difference from engagement which one (dating or engagement) is more suitable for a coptic orthodox .. i would say that whatever you call it, it doesn't matter but what you mean by it is what matters... my point is if a man or guy wants to know a woman or a girl or vice versa for the purpose of the holy matrimony both of them would act according to that purpose so i would think that temptation would not be an issue because they would pick the place the time and the enviroment that would be suitable for their purpose whether it is among family members friends or even by themselves ... but if a guy sees a girl to just get to know her so there is no purpose here and things might get out of hand on both sides .... if a guy knows that he would not be able to contain himself in the presence of the opposite sex i think that there might be a hormonal imbalance or this guy is just looking for fun...
I see you not quitting on me, u have to get me saying ur right lol. but anyways I will answer your questions after i get something str8 from you.... so it will be more easier to understand what you aiming for.
What range do you think im talking about when it comes to date? What is the proper age in your OPINION is able to date? And last but not least, what is the purpose of dating? if its not for engagement?
When you answer me, I will tell you what I think, if you get some rights things about my thoughts.
Mark let her answer my questions again, like i told you yesterday i have no time for them till friday, BUT I think she is somewhat confused about what im aiming for and what am i really saying.
What range do you think im talking about when it comes to date? i have no idea, i, as well as everyone else that has listed their opinoins has read ur posts and u havent agreed yet... all u say is that dating is right... not much more
What is the proper age in your OPINION is able to date? i have already stated at least 10x that the proper age to date is when it's ready to become engaged... i have not seen u agree to this yet
And last but not least, what is the purpose of dating? if its not for engagement? there is no purpose for dating, ohter than for engagement but if thats wut u think... u shouldve simply stated it from ur first post so we couldve avoided this whole thing... bye bye n God Bless :)
Thank you, you have just answered your own questions. ;)
i have no idea, i, as well as everyone else that has listed their opinoins has read ur posts and u havent agreed yet... all u say is that dating is right... not much more
I give what I think of things, i don't to give details for others since I don't ask them why and when and how.. Anyways I was talking about the 18 and over people. so you wont get confused on it.
i have already stated at least 10x that the proper age to date is when it's ready to become engaged... i have not seen u agree to this yet
What if someone felt like he/she is getting married at 16? or 15. If you read my posts carefully you will find my answer about being ready to get married or things about engagements. I said I WOULD NOT put my family in the risk of getting divorce, what do you really think i mean about it? it can get more clear then this.
there is no purpose for dating, ohter than for engagement but if thats wut u think... u shouldve simply stated it from ur first post so we couldve avoided this whole thing...
Once again go read my posts where i talked or even mentioned one word about family.
I give me opinions in such an undirected way, so read carefully between the lines and you will find your answer. Other then that, i really got bored of this subject.
why wud sum1 wanna get married at 15 or 16? then tha person would really put their familiy in a great risk of divorce. as you grow, you mature and find out wut tru love is...
"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, endures all things. Love never fails." (1 Cor. 13: 4-8)
one does not kno love unless through Jesus Christ, our Savoir. Dating takes the focus away from God. you spend much of ur time thinkin bout him/her, spendin time wit them, etc. .... and in this point of our lives, as well as any other, we must focus on our spirtual life rather than goin astray...well good luck & may God enlighten our hearts and reveal to us His will..
i didnt say im the one who is 15 or 16 that wanna get married.. but im saying i have seen some ppl that are,and they actually got married and now they are with their children.
i recall u saying that u dont have time to read the posts that have been previously posted till friday...wut makes u think we have the time to read between the lines for the nearly 100 posts when all we wanna do is finsih one and continue on?
i hope ur not talking about 15 or 16 yr olds getting married here in america... cause thats sorta illegal lol anywayz... i know what u mean, i have a few friends that seriously think they're engaged to some guy! its pathetic May God show us hte proper way
I do not believe the dating is sinful. Some people have sinned as a result of dating though, but I don't think anyone can accurately say that dating in and of itself is a sinful activity. As we'll see, God wants us to seek the best in everything, including our relationship. As Christians, we’re too often guilty of acting upon the world's model for a relationship and missing God's best. If dating were merely a guy and girl going out for coffee, then there wouldn't be any need for this. But we all know that dating is more than that. Dating is a lifestyle that involves our attitudes and values. And since we have already acknowledged that dating is not a sin, we also need to know that at the wrong time, dating is a temptation...a very strong one, and as our teacher Saint James tells us, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14-15). I can't say that its never appropriate to spend time alone with someone; at the right time in a relationship, if the motive is clear and the setting avoids temptation, going on a date can be healthy, WITH THE AKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE CHURCH, and the only person that can tell you that you're ready is your father of confession. Yes, I know what you're thinking, I'm only telling you this so the priest can tell you no, but I’m not. When you are ready, he will give you an absolution to spend time alone with someone, but that is when you are on the verge of marriage.
What is the point of going out? What do you get out of it? If you do get anything out of it, is it what Christ wants? Why would you go out with a person if you’re not going to marry them? What is your motivation in relationships, pleasing yourself, or serving others? Do you give yourself away physically of emotionally and will you will regret it when married? Does your current relationship, if you have one, hinder you from serving God as a single person? Answer these questions honestly to yourself, and you figure out if the way your life is heading pleases the Lord.
Can you imagine on your wedding day, when you and your bride are holding each other’s hands in front of the altar, and the priest is praying on you, one of the people that you went out with in the past goes and holds your other hand, and says you promised that this would be us one day. It’s a frightful to imagine. “For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed in the housetops” (Luke 12:2-3).
[quote author=SMS link=board=1;threadid=22;start=105#msg1534 date=1084034003] i recall u saying that u dont have time to read the posts that have been previously posted till friday...wut makes u think we have the time to read between the lines for the nearly 100 posts when all we wanna do is finsih one and continue on?
i hope ur not talking about 15 or 16 yr olds getting married here in america... cause thats sorta illegal lol anywayz... i know what u mean, i have a few friends that seriously think they're engaged to some guy! its pathetic May God show us hte proper way
Yes im talking the people in the u.s. and they actually got married and not only engaged, oh well thats life.
And yes I dont have time to read about 100 posts, because i wasnt here when u guys started it, yet i always read posts when it was directed to me, so read the last one of mine, and dont jump up to a conculsion. ;)
Anyways ur still my sister and my friend. :) God bless.
What is the point of going out? What do you get out of it? If you do get anything out of it, is it what Christ wants? Why would you go out with a person if you’re not going to marry them? What is your motivation in relationships, pleasing yourself, or serving others? Do you give yourself away physically of emotionally and will you will regret it when married? Does your current relationship, if you have one, hinder you from serving God as a single person? Answer these questions honestly to yourself, and you figure out if the way your life is heading pleases the Lord.
Can you imagine on your wedding day, when you and your bride are holding each other’s hands in front of the altar, and the priest is praying on you, one of the people that you went out with in the past goes and holds your other hand, and says you promised that this would be us one day. It’s a frightful to imagine. “For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed in the housetops” (Luke 12:2-3).
I do not believe the dating is sinful. Some people have sinned as a result of dating though, but I don't think anyone can accurately say that dating in and of itself is a sinful activity. As we'll see, God wants us to seek the best in everything, including our relationship. As Christians, we’re too often guilty of acting upon the world's model for a relationship and missing God's best. If dating were merely a guy and girl going out for coffee, then there wouldn't be any need for this. But we all know that dating is more than that. Dating is a lifestyle that involves our attitudes and values. And since we have already acknowledged that dating is not a sin, we also need to know that at the wrong time, dating is a temptation...a very strong one, and as our teacher Saint James tells us, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14-15). I can't say that its never appropriate to spend time alone with someone; at the right time in a relationship, if the motive is clear and the setting avoids temptation, going on a date can be healthy, WITH THE AKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE CHURCH, and the only person that can tell you that you're ready is your father of confession. Yes, I know what you're thinking, I'm only telling you this so the priest can tell you no, but I’m not. When you are ready, he will give you an absolution to spend time alone with someone, but that is when you are on the verge of marriage.
What is the point of going out? What do you get out of it? If you do get anything out of it, is it what Christ wants? Why would you go out with a person if you’re not going to marry them? What is your motivation in relationships, pleasing yourself, or serving others? Do you give yourself away physically of emotionally and will you will regret it when married? Does your current relationship, if you have one, hinder you from serving God as a single person? Answer these questions honestly to yourself, and you figure out if the way your life is heading pleases the Lord.
Can you imagine on your wedding day, when you and your bride are holding each other’s hands in front of the altar, and the priest is praying on you, one of the people that you went out with in the past goes and holds your other hand, and says you promised that this would be us one day. It’s a frightful to imagine. “For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed in the housetops” (Luke 12:2-3).
Paul, you are absolutely correct, if two people go out for some coffee and nothing else, there doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with that. However, we are all humans, we are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Perhaps an individual might not feel any attraction towards this other person. If that is the case then why label yourself dating? Dating specifically means being with somebody as a romantic partner. If you don’t see this person as somebody you would potentially marry, then there is no purpose of “dating” them. In the event it is a person you would hope to marry, then you should get engaged to them. In our culture when two people are engaged they have the opportunity to be alone together and go places with each other. Engagement is a much more refined dating. A person that places themselves under the label of “dating” belittles themselves and defames their character. The course of action is quite simple; if you are interested in somebody and feel they could be a potential bride/groom, get engaged to them. And for all those who say that you must get to know the person before you marry them; clearly if you consider them potential spouse, you already know enough about them to have decided that they are suitable. A transition period of dating serves no purpose. There is no information that is acquired during “dating” that can’t be acquired otherwise. Two people do not have to be alone to decide that they would like to marry. Any information that needs to be obtained while they are alone can be done during the engagement process. All these technicalities are to avoid temptation and sin. Although there is no bible verse that clearly states “dating is a sin” over several thousand years and generations people have seen that dating leads to immoral acts. To avoid this, we simply follow different traditions that have a high success rate. Don’t say that you can control yourselves; you wouldn’t be the first. Many have thought they could control themselves and have fallen. The devil comes in inconspicuous manners and you never see the sin coming. To avoid any chance of this happening, it is the wisest choice to refrain from dating. Allowing dating to become a norm in our Coptic society will only cause us to follow the path of the American society; which as previously stated is “chock full o’ sin”.
looks like sum1 else read the book too lol ---battata
yeah, i actually did read the book..lol.
Mark,
Dating specifically means being with somebody as a romantic partner. If you don’t see this person as somebody you would potentially marry, then there is no purpose of “dating” them. In the event it is a person you would hope to marry, then you should get engaged to them.
I'm not going to say that i can control myself because i've heard that soo many times, and I remember Anba Moussa was talking about it once and he said that when you first think about getting in a relationship with a person, you think of them in the purest way, and look at every good thing they do, and try to change the bad things they do. But thats what the devil uses to just get that person into your mind. Then then you begin to forget about that purity part, and so on and so forth. I understand that, and I understand that dating leads to temptation, but i don't think you can just jump into engagement right away like that. But my real question is, when do you know your ready to get THAT serious. what do you have to achieve to be ready?
[quote author=Mark423 link=board=1;threadid=22;start=15#msg905 date=1082932885] In our culture the whole purpose of an engagement is so that it’s seen “okay” for two people to get to better know each other in hopes that they will get married. If you have known a person for quite some time from a large group and they have drawn your attention then engagement is absolutely called for. The transition period of “dating” serves no function and is irrational. Due to the fact that we are living in America, it’s hard to grasp how our traditional engagements come to pass. Generally, you don’t go from “Knowing a person in a big group then go straight to engagement”. If you and the person you have met are fond of one another and you think that you might consider marrying this person then you usually go with your parents to meet with their parents. This clearly isn’t “hanging out” and is a more serious atmosphere. After several visits (where you can interrogate) you can see whether or not you feel you would be comfortable committing to this person. Shortly after you can take it to the next stage of engagement. However you go about it, the American norm of dating surely shouldn’t be practiced by Coptics and undoubtedly leads to demise. Perhaps not to our generations, but certainly will in generations to come. Then again, we can always conform, and add to the statistics of the high divorce rate of the good old U.S.A.
People don’t “jump into engagements”. I think it’s hard to grasp how we Coptics go about getting married. Engagement is merely a gestation period. As previously mentioned, we are amazing creatures of God; he gave us the ability to assess situations and be able to infer ideas. When you’ve known somebody from a group for a long period of time, it is quite obvious whether or not you would consider them as a spouse. At this point you don’t need any “alone time”. In a traditional marriage, before the actual engagement takes place, you meet with the person several times so that you are given “alone time” to be able to interrogate them and get the information you need. However, this shouldn’t take place out in some restaurant. Like people have mentioned, you need to make sure this is the right person; you won’t be doing that if you’re going out somewhere; laughing and joking; not actually discussing anything serious. Marriage isn’t some fun game; it’s like the most serious business deal of your life; it is essential that one chooses the right person. So to sum it all up; you can surely tell if this person could potentially be “the one”; the first stages of engagement are a time where you can interrogate each other to obtain the information that you see vital to a marriage; and finally, if two people are serious about a relationship, the time that they spend alone together going places comes much later; the beginning should be a time to sit somewhere quiet where you can actually have a long drawn out conversation for hours on end without being distracted with foolish things. (Such as a living room ect...).
i'm sorry to say this.. but to me.. this seems like 8 pages (minus the people making dogmatic/theological points) of people trying to justify something in your own minds, or looking for the thumbs up to go ahead and do something we've already been told the answer to.. millions of times before. if it wasn't ok'ed by a servant or an abouna or a bishop or the pope himself.. then i don't think amongst ourselves, that we're just gonna decide that it's all good and dandy... if you're looking to date.. then that's something between you, the other person, AND ur father of confession.. who with proper guidance, will help you get over all the obstacles of the carnal mind and put you on the correct spiritual path, enabling you to see if this is the person with whom God intended for you to start a church within you own home (1Timothy 3:5). end of story...
according to the church, dating w/out n e marriage afterwards is wrong. that justifies u CAN date, but if ur engaged and willing to marry the person ur dating.
hey everybody... again okay, i agree with marys, even though i may have contributed to doing wut she said... n to be qutie honest... im gettin tired of stating my opinions on this topic, because we all know it's wrong, but we just want to hear one person okay it for us so that we may do it because everyone else around u seems to be doing it but we all know dating is wrong
and wut i think mark has been trying to say all this time is that if ur fond enough of a person to consider dating them, then wut would be the difference if u engaged them? so u should engage them so that ur not labeled as 'dating' by people because it not only degrades ur reputation in a sense, but ur self respect to an extent and just as a little side note, i dont think it's a good idea to bring our culture into this... with the whole, as u call it, 'interrogating' part mainly because we are not the only people that do this and often other cultures do it too we all know dating is wrong...its a lusty desire/passion that arises the oppurtiny to take quick action and as i said before... ur gambling wiht ur pureness of mind and heart that God gave u as kids we looked up to kids who dated in a somewhat disgusted way... and we should still have that mentality in a sense becasue as children it wasnt an innocent thing to do, and it still isnt but because we're surrounded iwht it on a day to day basis, we've become accustomed to it.
But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 1 Cor 10: 1-13 God has given us several examples... learn from them!
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. Romans 7:7-12 God gave us his law... and we must obey or else we will be led to death! It's like you come up to two paths in life, and instead of looking at the huge sign in front of u that clearly points out the righteous way to go... u take the other path and avoid the sign that says [glow=red,2,300]DANGER!!![/glow] in big letters! so ppl... for the loveof the word of God, choose the proper path and abide by his laws
i know this is turning into a torture essay for u guys to read... but i promise, i wont say much more about this topic... i just got one more thing to say from teh bible, n thats all ( promise! )
Remember now your Creator in the days of your youth, Before the difficult days come, And the years draw near when you say, "I have no pleasure in them": While the sun and the light, The moon and the stars, Are not darkened, And the clouds do not return after the rain; In the day when the keepers of the house tremble, And the strong men bow down; When the grinders cease because they are few, And those that look through the windows grow dim; When the doors are shut in the streets, And the sound of grinding is low; When one rises up at the sound of a bird, And all the daughters of music are brought low; Also they are afraid of height, And of terrors in the way; When the almond tree blossoms, The grasshopper is a burden, And desire fails. For man goes to his eternal home, And the mourners go about the streets. Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. "Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "All is vanity." Ecclesiastes 12: 1-8
Now the way i interpret this passage is that the Lord tells us that our days of youth are difficult in teh begginning he tells us that we should enjoy the beauty of nature and of life while it lasts, so as we grow old and diseases, we not look back and say we had no fun... because for one thing, dating is not fun! u end up hurt and harmed. so live life as it is beautiful so that u may grow into a man taht will go to His eternal home... and if u beome a mourner, u will wander about the streets (not a very fun experience) God also reminds us that he can take us at any time...but which path will u be led to...? to Him or will u return back to the dust of which u were created. it's like the parable of the talents... God gave us all a life and talents and gifts, instead of hiding them as the foolish ones do, or using them for evildoings, we should develop them into talents that glorify God...same wiht our life, we should live a life that will glorify Him and make him joyful to say, This Is My Child... as he said to Jesus, "this is My Son, in whom I am well pleased" so dont make God refuse u in the last days... and when he asks u, wut have i done wiht my life... wut will u tell him? k, as i said, i will try my best to make that my last long post :-\ sry if i have bored u n anyway... :-[
dating is NOT wrong, its the things that are done while dating. Don't say that "its different with this person, and nothing will happen" cus thats how everybody thinks at first. just to clear something up, by my last post, when i was asking
when do you know that your THAT ready to get serious
i wasn't implying that we should be dating to try to find out. I was just wondering about like...at what age?...financial status?...things like that. but in no way was i trying to jusify dating cus i can tell you from experience that..no matter how much u say that "its different" and "i can control myself," you'll have that moment when ur put in the temptation, and it'll be very VERYYY hard for you to get away. so why put yourself in that position. anyway, i agree that most of these 8 pages was just people looking a way to okay dating when they already know the answers and have asked priests and bishops about it. but yeah, i think the question here is pretty much answered. dating is a no-no. Your gonna regret it. [you have just been given an official warning ;D]
Hey Everyone, According to His Holiness Pope Shenouda, dating is for the sole purpose of a prepartation for marriage. He says that dating is OK. However, dating outside of engagement, should only be done in groups; This is to eliminate the lusts and temptations, that otherwise would not be pursued in a group. Dating is really just a way to get to know the person. It is not something vital to one's social life. I believe that the Pope is right. Dating is for the sole purpose of getting to know someone on a more person and even intimate level. It is quite senseless to almost commit to someone, when not serious. Take Care ya'all
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails!
to back wat everybodies been saying, i think we are spending too much time on this topic. dating is wrong. period. end of discussion. those who want a different answer or still think otherwise need to go see their father of confess [glow=red,2,300]IMMEDIATELY![/glow]. lets move on with other discussion shall we?
I disagree with egyprincess and I think peet has made a very good point. It is also clear from the poll that quite a few would think dating is acceptable if planning for engagement. I think dating is ok with the aim of engagement
I don't believe that one can just say dating is wrong period...... its missuse of the purpose of dating that is wrong. It does not make sense to get engaged to someone who you know very little about from group interaction etc
Comments
In my opinion DATING is not wrong, I need to get to know the person before i get married and at one point i dont want to put my future family in the risk of divorce, Yes some ppl can get married from ARRANGE marriages and succeed, but i know that thing is not for me.
Peronally I think I can date without getting into sexual contact with my other partner, and thats how it is from where i came from.. they dated but didnt even hold hands! it is all about self control and how ur parents raised you and also traditions.
The bible doesnt mention about dating saying its wrong but it mentions getting involved sexual is wrong.
Thats it.
I enjoyed replying to this posts, interesting opinions to hear, let me move on and reply to new posts lol.
God Bless.
if u have the resistance to sustain from sexual contact while dating... y cant u have that same self control to resist from dating?
it doesnt make sense to me
plus... in case u havent noticed... most ppl on this discussion agree with dating if u r going to get engaged... but not if ur in ur teen years
and u have not yet made urself clear about wut stage ur talking about...
and no, the bible does not mention anything about dating... but then again, i have a hard time believing dating existed when they were still making betrothals...
dating may not lead to sexual contact, but what about the lustful thoughts that occur and the temptations that may be from within urself or from outer society... u can never guarantee urself.
and if your not egyptian, just for future reference, hardly ANY of us have arranged marriages... when we reach the proper age and fall in true love with someone, we are then able to date that person so the process of engagment may take place.
if u have not yet read the past posts, i ask u that u please do, and then state ur opinion.
i just read some of the openions in this forum and i would like to add mine .. i spent most of my life in egypt and lived outside egypt for less than 3 years ... i understand that most of you people out here were born or lived the significant part of your lives in the west and got affected by the life style ... some participants talked about egypt as if it is dark age country (if people see two people of opposite sex hugging they might be put in jail ) this might be true but again it doesn't happen for many reasons but that would be out of the context ... the main issue was dating the meaning/purpose and difference from engagement which one (dating or engagement) is more suitable for a coptic orthodox .. i would say that whatever you call it, it doesn't matter but what you mean by it is what matters...
my point is if a man or guy wants to know a woman or a girl or vice versa for the purpose of the holy matrimony both of them would act according to that purpose so i would think that temptation would not be an issue because they would pick the place the time and the enviroment that would be suitable for their purpose whether it is among family members friends or even by themselves ... but if a guy sees a girl to just get to know her so there is no purpose here and things might get out of hand on both sides .... if a guy knows that he would not be able to contain himself in the presence of the opposite sex i think that there might be a hormonal imbalance or this guy is just looking for fun...
What range do you think im talking about when it comes to date?
What is the proper age in your OPINION is able to date?
And last but not least, what is the purpose of dating? if its not for engagement?
When you answer me, I will tell you what I think, if you get some rights things about my thoughts.
Take care my friend :)
i have no idea, i, as well as everyone else that has listed their opinoins has read ur posts and u havent agreed yet... all u say is that dating is right... not much more
What is the proper age in your OPINION is able to date?
i have already stated at least 10x that the proper age to date is when it's ready to become engaged... i have not seen u agree to this yet
And last but not least, what is the purpose of dating? if its not for engagement?
there is no purpose for dating, ohter than for engagement
but if thats wut u think... u shouldve simply stated it from ur first post so we couldve avoided this whole thing...
bye bye n God Bless :)
I give what I think of things, i don't to give details for others since I don't ask them why and when and how.. Anyways I was talking about the 18 and over people. so you wont get confused on it. What if someone felt like he/she is getting married at 16? or 15.
If you read my posts carefully you will find my answer about being ready to get married or things about engagements. I said I WOULD NOT put my family in the risk of getting divorce, what do you really think i mean about it? it can get more clear then this.
Once again go read my posts where i talked or even mentioned one word about family.
I give me opinions in such an undirected way, so read carefully between the lines and you will find your answer.
Other then that, i really got bored of this subject.
Take care and godbless. :)
"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, endures all things. Love never fails." (1 Cor. 13: 4-8)
one does not kno love unless through Jesus Christ, our Savoir. Dating takes the focus away from God. you spend much of ur time thinkin bout him/her, spendin time wit them, etc. .... and in this point of our lives, as well as any other, we must focus on our spirtual life rather than goin astray...well good luck & may God enlighten our hearts and reveal to us His will..
i hope ur not talking about 15 or 16 yr olds getting married here in america... cause thats sorta illegal lol
anywayz... i know what u mean, i have a few friends that seriously think they're engaged to some guy! its pathetic
May God show us hte proper way
I do not believe the dating is sinful. Some people have sinned as a result of dating though, but I don't think anyone can accurately say that dating in and of itself is a sinful activity. As we'll see, God wants us to seek the best in everything, including our relationship. As Christians, we’re too often guilty of acting upon the world's model for a relationship and missing God's best. If dating were merely a guy and girl going out for coffee, then there wouldn't be any need for this. But we all know that dating is more than that. Dating is a lifestyle that involves our attitudes and values. And since we have already acknowledged that dating is not a sin, we also need to know that at the wrong time, dating is a temptation...a very strong one, and as our teacher Saint James tells us, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14-15). I can't say that its never appropriate to spend time alone with someone; at the right time in a relationship, if the motive is clear and the setting avoids temptation, going on a date can be healthy, WITH THE AKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE CHURCH, and the only person that can tell you that you're ready is your father of confession. Yes, I know what you're thinking, I'm only telling you this so the priest can tell you no, but I’m not. When you are ready, he will give you an absolution to spend time alone with someone, but that is when you are on the verge of marriage.
What is the point of going out? What do you get out of it? If you do get anything out of it, is it what Christ wants? Why would you go out with a person if you’re not going to marry them? What is your motivation in relationships, pleasing yourself, or serving others? Do you give yourself away physically of emotionally and will you will regret it when married? Does your current relationship, if you have one, hinder you from serving God as a single person? Answer these questions honestly to yourself, and you figure out if the way your life is heading pleases the Lord.
Can you imagine on your wedding day, when you and your bride are holding each other’s hands in front of the altar, and the priest is praying on you, one of the people that you went out with in the past goes and holds your other hand, and says you promised that this would be us one day. It’s a frightful to imagine. “For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed in the housetops” (Luke 12:2-3).
i recall u saying that u dont have time to read the posts that have been previously posted till friday...wut makes u think we have the time to read between the lines for the nearly 100 posts when all we wanna do is finsih one and continue on?
i hope ur not talking about 15 or 16 yr olds getting married here in america... cause thats sorta illegal lol
anywayz... i know what u mean, i have a few friends that seriously think they're engaged to some guy! its pathetic
May God show us hte proper way
Yes im talking the people in the u.s. and they actually got married and not only engaged, oh well thats life.
And yes I dont have time to read about 100 posts, because i wasnt here when u guys started it, yet i always read posts when it was directed to me, so read the last one of mine, and dont jump up to a conculsion. ;)
Anyways ur still my sister and my friend. :)
God bless.
What is the point of going out? What do you get out of it? If you do get anything out of it, is it what Christ wants? Why would you go out with a person if you’re not going to marry them? What is your motivation in relationships, pleasing yourself, or serving others? Do you give yourself away physically of emotionally and will you will regret it when married? Does your current relationship, if you have one, hinder you from serving God as a single person? Answer these questions honestly to yourself, and you figure out if the way your life is heading pleases the Lord.
Can you imagine on your wedding day, when you and your bride are holding each other’s hands in front of the altar, and the priest is praying on you, one of the people that you went out with in the past goes and holds your other hand, and says you promised that this would be us one day. It’s a frightful to imagine. “For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed in the housetops” (Luke 12:2-3).
looks like sum1 else read the book too lol
hey
I do not believe the dating is sinful. Some people have sinned as a result of dating though, but I don't think anyone can accurately say that dating in and of itself is a sinful activity. As we'll see, God wants us to seek the best in everything, including our relationship. As Christians, we’re too often guilty of acting upon the world's model for a relationship and missing God's best. If dating were merely a guy and girl going out for coffee, then there wouldn't be any need for this. But we all know that dating is more than that. Dating is a lifestyle that involves our attitudes and values. And since we have already acknowledged that dating is not a sin, we also need to know that at the wrong time, dating is a temptation...a very strong one, and as our teacher Saint James tells us, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14-15). I can't say that its never appropriate to spend time alone with someone; at the right time in a relationship, if the motive is clear and the setting avoids temptation, going on a date can be healthy, WITH THE AKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE CHURCH, and the only person that can tell you that you're ready is your father of confession. Yes, I know what you're thinking, I'm only telling you this so the priest can tell you no, but I’m not. When you are ready, he will give you an absolution to spend time alone with someone, but that is when you are on the verge of marriage.
What is the point of going out? What do you get out of it? If you do get anything out of it, is it what Christ wants? Why would you go out with a person if you’re not going to marry them? What is your motivation in relationships, pleasing yourself, or serving others? Do you give yourself away physically of emotionally and will you will regret it when married? Does your current relationship, if you have one, hinder you from serving God as a single person? Answer these questions honestly to yourself, and you figure out if the way your life is heading pleases the Lord.
Can you imagine on your wedding day, when you and your bride are holding each other’s hands in front of the altar, and the priest is praying on you, one of the people that you went out with in the past goes and holds your other hand, and says you promised that this would be us one day. It’s a frightful to imagine. “For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed in the housetops” (Luke 12:2-3).
Paul, you are absolutely correct, if two people go out for some coffee and nothing else, there doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with that. However, we are all humans, we are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Perhaps an individual might not feel any attraction towards this other person. If that is the case then why label yourself dating? Dating specifically means being with somebody as a romantic partner. If you don’t see this person as somebody you would potentially marry, then there is no purpose of “dating” them. In the event it is a person you would hope to marry, then you should get engaged to them. In our culture when two people are engaged they have the opportunity to be alone together and go places with each other. Engagement is a much more refined dating. A person that places themselves under the label of “dating” belittles themselves and defames their character. The course of action is quite simple; if you are interested in somebody and feel they could be a potential bride/groom, get engaged to them. And for all those who say that you must get to know the person before you marry them; clearly if you consider them potential spouse, you already know enough about them to have decided that they are suitable. A transition period of dating serves no purpose. There is no information that is acquired during “dating” that can’t be acquired otherwise. Two people do not have to be alone to decide that they would like to marry. Any information that needs to be obtained while they are alone can be done during the engagement process. All these technicalities are to avoid temptation and sin. Although there is no bible verse that clearly states “dating is a sin” over several thousand years and generations people have seen that dating leads to immoral acts. To avoid this, we simply follow different traditions that have a high success rate. Don’t say that you can control yourselves; you wouldn’t be the first. Many have thought they could control themselves and have fallen. The devil comes in inconspicuous manners and you never see the sin coming. To avoid any chance of this happening, it is the wisest choice to refrain from dating. Allowing dating to become a norm in our Coptic society will only cause us to follow the path of the American society; which as previously stated is “chock full o’ sin”.
God Bless You All
-Mark
u two summed it up quite well
Great job! :D
Mark, I'm not going to say that i can control myself because i've heard that soo many times, and I remember Anba Moussa was talking about it once and he said that when you first think about getting in a relationship with a person, you think of them in the purest way, and look at every good thing they do, and try to change the bad things they do. But thats what the devil uses to just get that person into your mind. Then then you begin to forget about that purity part, and so on and so forth. I understand that, and I understand that dating leads to temptation, but i don't think you can just jump into engagement right away like that. But my real question is, when do you know your ready to get THAT serious. what do you have to achieve to be ready?
In our culture the whole purpose of an engagement is so that it’s seen “okay” for two people to get to better know each other in hopes that they will get married. If you have known a person for quite some time from a large group and they have drawn your attention then engagement is absolutely called for. The transition period of “dating” serves no function and is irrational. Due to the fact that we are living in America, it’s hard to grasp how our traditional engagements come to pass. Generally, you don’t go from “Knowing a person in a big group then go straight to engagement”. If you and the person you have met are fond of one another and you think that you might consider marrying this person then you usually go with your parents to meet with their parents. This clearly isn’t “hanging out” and is a more serious atmosphere. After several visits (where you can interrogate) you can see whether or not you feel you would be comfortable committing to this person. Shortly after you can take it to the next stage of engagement. However you go about it, the American norm of dating surely shouldn’t be practiced by Coptics and undoubtedly leads to demise. Perhaps not to our generations, but certainly will in generations to come. Then again, we can always conform, and add to the statistics of the high divorce rate of the good old U.S.A.
People don’t “jump into engagements”. I think it’s hard to grasp how we Coptics go about getting married. Engagement is merely a gestation period. As previously mentioned, we are amazing creatures of God; he gave us the ability to assess situations and be able to infer ideas. When you’ve known somebody from a group for a long period of time, it is quite obvious whether or not you would consider them as a spouse. At this point you don’t need any “alone time”. In a traditional marriage, before the actual engagement takes place, you meet with the person several times so that you are given “alone time” to be able to interrogate them and get the information you need. However, this shouldn’t take place out in some restaurant. Like people have mentioned, you need to make sure this is the right person; you won’t be doing that if you’re going out somewhere; laughing and joking; not actually discussing anything serious. Marriage isn’t some fun game; it’s like the most serious business deal of your life; it is essential that one chooses the right person. So to sum it all up; you can surely tell if this person could potentially be “the one”; the first stages of engagement are a time where you can interrogate each other to obtain the information that you see vital to a marriage; and finally, if two people are serious about a relationship, the time that they spend alone together going places comes much later; the beginning should be a time to sit somewhere quiet where you can actually have a long drawn out conversation for hours on end without being distracted with foolish things. (Such as a living room ect...).
Please read the previous posts carefully everybody. This is becoming so redundant...
okay, i agree with marys, even though i may have contributed to doing wut she said...
n to be qutie honest... im gettin tired of stating my opinions on this topic, because we all know it's wrong, but we just want to hear one person okay it for us so that we may do it because everyone else around u seems to be doing it
but we all know dating is wrong
and wut i think mark has been trying to say all this time is that if ur fond enough of a person to consider dating them, then wut would be the difference if u engaged them? so u should engage them so that ur not labeled as 'dating' by people because it not only degrades ur reputation in a sense, but ur self respect to an extent
and just as a little side note, i dont think it's a good idea to bring our culture into this... with the whole, as u call it, 'interrogating' part mainly because we are not the only people that do this and often other cultures do it too
we all know dating is wrong...its a lusty desire/passion that arises the oppurtiny to take quick action
and as i said before... ur gambling wiht ur pureness of mind and heart that God gave u
as kids we looked up to kids who dated in a somewhat disgusted way... and we should still have that mentality in a sense becasue as children it wasnt an innocent thing to do, and it still isnt
but because we're surrounded iwht it on a day to day basis, we've become accustomed to it.
But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
1 Cor 10: 1-13
God has given us several examples... learn from them!
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Romans 7:7-12
God gave us his law... and we must obey or else we will be led to death!
It's like you come up to two paths in life, and instead of looking at the huge sign in front of u that clearly points out the righteous way to go... u take the other path and avoid the sign that says [glow=red,2,300]DANGER!!![/glow] in big letters! so ppl... for the loveof the word of God, choose the proper path and abide by his laws
i know this is turning into a torture essay for u guys to read... but i promise, i wont say much more about this topic... i just got one more thing to say from teh bible, n thats all ( promise! )
Remember now your Creator in the days of your youth, Before the difficult days come, And the years draw near when you say, "I have no pleasure in them": While the sun and the light, The moon and the stars, Are not darkened, And the clouds do not return after the rain; In the day when the keepers of the house tremble, And the strong men bow down; When the grinders cease because they are few, And those that look through the windows grow dim; When the doors are shut in the streets, And the sound of grinding is low; When one rises up at the sound of a bird, And all the daughters of music are brought low; Also they are afraid of height, And of terrors in the way; When the almond tree blossoms, The grasshopper is a burden, And desire fails. For man goes to his eternal home, And the mourners go about the streets. Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "All is vanity."
Ecclesiastes 12: 1-8
Now the way i interpret this passage is that the Lord tells us that our days of youth are difficult in teh begginning
he tells us that we should enjoy the beauty of nature and of life while it lasts, so as we grow old and diseases, we not look back and say we had no fun... because for one thing, dating is not fun! u end up hurt and harmed. so live life as it is beautiful so that u may grow into a man taht will go to His eternal home... and if u beome a mourner, u will wander about the streets (not a very fun experience) God also reminds us that he can take us at any time...but which path will u be led to...? to Him or will u return back to the dust of which u were created. it's like the parable of the talents... God gave us all a life and talents and gifts, instead of hiding them as the foolish ones do, or using them for evildoings, we should develop them into talents that glorify God...same wiht our life, we should live a life that will glorify Him and make him joyful to say, This Is My Child... as he said to Jesus, "this is My Son, in whom I am well pleased" so dont make God refuse u in the last days... and when he asks u, wut have i done wiht my life... wut will u tell him?
k, as i said, i will try my best to make that my last long post :-\ sry if i have bored u n anyway... :-[
dating is NOT wrong, its the things that are done while dating. Don't say that "its different with this person, and nothing will happen" cus thats how everybody thinks at first. just to clear something up, by my last post, when i was asking i wasn't implying that we should be dating to try to find out. I was just wondering about like...at what age?...financial status?...things like that. but in no way was i trying to jusify dating cus i can tell you from experience that..no matter how much u say that "its different" and "i can control myself," you'll have that moment when ur put in the temptation, and it'll be very VERYYY hard for you to get away. so why put yourself in that position. anyway, i agree that most of these 8 pages was just people looking a way to okay dating when they already know the answers and have asked priests and bishops about it. but yeah, i think the question here is pretty much answered. dating is a no-no. Your gonna regret it. [you have just been given an official warning ;D]
According to His Holiness Pope Shenouda, dating is for the sole purpose of a prepartation for marriage. He says that dating is OK. However, dating outside of engagement, should only be done in groups; This is to eliminate the lusts and temptations, that otherwise would not be pursued in a group. Dating is really just a way to get to know the person. It is not something vital to one's social life. I believe that the Pope is right. Dating is for the sole purpose of getting to know someone on a more person and even intimate level. It is quite senseless to almost commit to someone, when not serious. Take Care ya'all
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails!
Sorry egyprincess cant help asking,
if dating is wrong, why is it something that is alright b4 marriage ???