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Dr. George Bebawi Lecture

ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
edited December 2013 in General Announcements
Agape, 

Attached is an excellent lecture by Dr. George where he speaks about the concept of scripture and authority in the Church. Highly reccomended!

Please use this thread to share any questions, thoughts, and comments that could lead to an enriching discussion. Please, keep the discussion limited to the lecture, with no off-topic discussion. All other comments will be rigidly moderated. 

Ray

Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    I am sorry but "George Bebawi" !!! I won't even listen Sorry....
  • mrpete33mrpete33
    I am sorry to hear that, the man is a scholar and a great theologian. I do believe that this lecture in particular is quite good :). 

    Pray for me
  • aiernoviaiernovi
    I thought this was pretty interesting, but it was a bit scattered and he never really took the opportunity to completely flesh out any of his arguments. In particular I was interested in his discussion on canon law both the fact that he feels they are heavily influenced both by historical context and by the Islamic invasion. I would love to hear/read more about this because, in studying canon laws, one does it the feeling that they are unequally enforced. Some are treated as Gospel while others are largely ignored or significantly altered. I do believe in the importance of the concept of economia, but agree with Dr. Bebawi that church canon should not be altered based on the idea of a single bishop.
  • Mgabby1234
    Meensasamy and aiernovi you both walked right into that. Let the games begin.
  • aiernoviaiernovi
    hahah I knew that the video and subsequent conversation would be loaded, but, to be fair, my knowledge of Dr. Bebawi is limited, so I figured if I commented on the video, I would initiate a little dialogue that would enlighten me.


  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Let's not be too quick to judge Dr Bebawy. The bishops and metropolitans in our church have proven already that they can be insensitive and judgemental. 

    Dr. Bebawy, in this particular lecture, says nothing really wrong that I think the Church would disagree with.

    If I'm not mistaken, his issue with the Coptic Church stems from the same problems that Fr Matta El Maskeen had with the Church also. What no one realises on this forum is that the entire Greek / Russian Orthodox Church (and EO in general) seem to have more support for Dr. Bebawy than for our own bishops.

    I dont believe that anyone deserved to be excommunicated over these issues. That's cruel. 

    Unless the Coptic Church actually starts to work hard on making bridges with the EO, we are going to find ourselves reduced to a mere museum in a few years time. Its a mathematical certainty that unless full communion with the EO happens - we are just going to become extinct. 


  • StavroStavro
    How is it a mathematical certainty that we will become extinct if no union with the Chalcedonians occurs?

    Why didn't we become extinct since 451 a.d?

    The Chalcedonians became extinct in Constantinople within a generation after the Turkish invasion and have proven that they do not have the spiritual power to survive any kind of persecution. They can only survive under a Chalcedonian Zsar or Emperor. Without political power, they have no chance. They cannot offer what they do not have.

    Unlike Chalcedonians, we, the Orthodox, survive all political adversities as long as we are Orthodox. We will only become extinct when we embrace heresy.

    I also do not understand what more of a union are you asking for? The synod has said that Chalcedonians are Orthodox, we do not require them to be re-baptized, they are admitted to communion without restrictions and intermarriage is allowed.

    The fact that we do not have the same hierarchy is because there is big money involved, specially in North America. This is the situation with all the sister churches, by the way. The love of money aside, aren't we united in every ecclesiastical aspect?

    Maybe our current weakness is due to this union and not due to the lack of. Or maybe it is irrelevant to any union activities and could be attributed to other factors.




  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Excellent post Stavro.


  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    I dont know what religious circles you guys hangout, but i've been told that we are still heretics by Russian and Greek priests.


  • ReturnOrthodoxyReturnOrthodoxy
    @meenasamy You have every right to your ignorance. If you don't want to listen to something because of the name of the person who said it, than may truth be your judge. I won't comment much on your post since it only serves to validate what I expected; that there are still people out there who's mentality of theology does not spread much past pharisaic ignorance. 

    @aiernovi I agree! I feel like this was quite the scattered talk. Maybe it would be less scattered if you were to watch the rest of the videos of the talks at the symposium. Still, it is evident that Dr. George did speak much opinion that was less supported by proper argumentation than one would expect. Dr. George's view of economia is exactly what I was speaking about in posting this video. Since we are a church with no reliable canon law, we are left to the whims and fancies of clergy, and so, we experience an extremely drastic change with every patriarch/bishop who is seated. I was wondering if you had taken a look at the canons of El-Safy Ebn El 3assal? The discussion that I would like to see is about the lack of canon law in the church, and the effect of that lack. 

    @Mgabby1234 Oh Goody! More umping to conclusions and meaningless comments from the peanut gallery! We really need to make a children section to this forum so the adults can have serious conversations, while the boys and girls can sit around in the sandbox with their toy trucks and smug comments. 

    @Zoxasi @Stavro I don't think that we will become extinct at all. If we remain the church of God with our theology, spirituality, and praxis, even hell cannot make us extinct. The only condition is that we remain a true church of God. As long as we do that, even an ecumenist like myself doubts that extinction is even a possibility. Our weakness now is due to many internal problems within our glorious church. If we fix those, we will be stronger. If we continue in ignorance because clergy have unjustly ostracized a man, we will never re-become the church of Athanasius again. 

    Can we have a conversation here about the Canons of the Coptic church. Remnkemi, you see to know much about this topic. RamezM and Stavro as well! 

    Ray

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Ray,
    I have not read the canons of Ibn al asaal but I have read canons by Patriarch Gabriel Ibn Turiyak and Cyrill III Ibn Laqlaq. Coptic Church canons aside, I had a similar conversation on ecumenical canons with the Chalcedonians. Their view is that the Orthodox Church is not Sola canonicum, sola scripture, sola anything. Canons have their place but the Church is not subject to strict canon interpretation and enforcement of the past. I challenged this concept and I have not really received any legitimate response. 

    If you have a specific question, I'll research it.

    PS: Now it's your turn to contribute to the Chalcedon thread "New Book on Chalcedon".
  • Bobos
    edited April 2014
    @stavro I am just going to comment on the validity of the Coptic faith due to "Spiritual Power". That argument I logical fallacy for 5 reasons:

    1- Technically speaking persecution by the Turkish invasion is a physical thing with different set of parameters. I.e. If during Ottoman rule they massacred each and every Copt they would too cease to exist. The idea that God protects his people could be flipped on its head and I could argue that God doesn't protect the Heretics. With 1.5 billion Muslim this argument wouldn't stand.

    2. Our brothers the Syriac whom are non-Chalcedonian were concentrated in Antioch which is in non other than Modern Day Turkey. They too have dwindled in numbers after the invasion.

    4. A lot of people have persecuted and survived. Jews, Druze, Zordashtians, Assyrians and Bahaiians. Is that an indication of spiritual power? If it is then we need to redefine the term. Particularly when the Bahiians are the fastest growing faith in the world. Also the Assyrians were persecuted by the Turks proportionally more than the Cop and have survived and flourished.

    5. Who said the EO of Byzantium haven't survived after a generation? That is completely inaccurate. Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire until their wars of independence which resulted years later in cross-migration as a condition of the treaty of Lausanne. So you can say that Greece is constantinople in exile. In addition to the murder of the vast Majority of Greeks in Contantinople during the uprising including the Patriarch.
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