In the Thursday Theotokia we say:
For He who was born is God,
born without pain from the Father,
and He was also born according to the flesh,
without pain for the Virgin.
Then, later in the same Theotokia, we say:
Upon her head was a crown of twelve stars,
she being with a child cried out in labor,
and in pain to give birth.
This is Mary,
the New heaven on earth..."
One part says it was painless and another says she cried out in pain. Why the apparent contradiction, and which was it really?
Comments
I would wonder why St. Mary would be exempt from the pains of childbirth. That is the curse God gave the woman for disobeying Him.
the word used in the original coptic is: pathos.....a greek word that means passion/pain/suffering. the Church Fathers used this word to describe the consequence of the original sin--pain, suffering and corruption. In kiahk, in one of the parts of the moaqap it is mentioned:
`Aremacf cwmatikoc@ hijen pikahi a[ne pa;oc@ afhwtp `eron nem nefaggeloc@ kata tefmet`aga;oc.
i translated it to be:
You gave birth to Him in the flesh, on earth without the pain [of sin], and He reconciled us with His angels, according to His goodness.
It seems that the Latin fathers and the Eastern ones differ on this issue. The Eastern Tradition is that she bore Christ without pain for pain is the result of sin and the born of the Theotokos is without sin.
"the born of the Theotokos is without sin"?! is that a reference to Immaculate Conception?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12054.msg143049#msg143049 date=1313117803]
It seems that the Latin fathers and the Eastern ones differ on this issue. The Eastern Tradition is that she bore Christ without pain for pain is the result of sin and the born of the Theotokos is without sin.
"the born of the Theotokos is without sin"?! is that a reference to Immaculate Conception?
No it is not. Immaculate conception is that St Mary herself was born without sin. We, Orthodox, do not believe in this heresy.
What I said was that the born of the Theotokos, the Child Jesus, was without sin.
No it is not. Immaculate conception is that St Mary herself was born without sin. We, Orthodox, do not believe in this heresy.
What I said was that the born of the Theotokos, the Child Jesus, was without sin.
don't you think that doesn't make since Saint Mary was fully human. The effects of the original sin, which includes the punishment unto women, must be in Saint Mary for the Birth to be a fully human birth?
The thing is though, one was prophesied about (the Virgin birth and the perpetual Virginity). A painless birth wasn't. Additionally, we do have the curse God gave the woman. But like you said, anything is possible.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
The thing is though, one was prophesied about (the Virgin birth and the perpetual Virginity). A painless birth wasn't. Additionally, we do have the curse God gave the woman. But like you said, anything is possible.
I am not sure if there are no prophesies saying the Virgin will give birth without pain. Have you looked into it?
As a funny aside (well sort of funny), a friend told me of a sunday school teacher who was explaining St. Mary's giving birth to Christ in which she was asked how the theotokos' virginity was sealed. This servant went ahead and told the kid's that Jesus came out of her side!!
An example of what happens when we don't understand things yet hastily try to reconcile them without proper research.
Not sure if this adds any insight or not but maybe someone could explain.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12054.msg143051#msg143051 date=1313118264]
No it is not. Immaculate conception is that St Mary herself was born without sin. We, Orthodox, do not believe in this heresy.
What I said was that the born of the Theotokos, the Child Jesus, was without sin.
don't you think that doesn't make since Saint Mary was fully human. The effects of the original sin, which includes the punishment unto women, must be in Saint Mary for the Birth to be a fully human birth?
There is nothing called the original sin in the Orthodox theology.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12054.msg143052#msg143052 date=1313119059]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12054.msg143051#msg143051 date=1313118264]
No it is not. Immaculate conception is that St Mary herself was born without sin. We, Orthodox, do not believe in this heresy.
What I said was that the born of the Theotokos, the Child Jesus, was without sin.
don't you think that doesn't make since Saint Mary was fully human. The effects of the original sin, which includes the punishment unto women, must be in Saint Mary for the Birth to be a fully human birth?
There is nothing called the original sin in the Orthodox theology.
the old sin, the sin of Adam and Eve that brought us to this corruptible nature....you know what i mean.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12054.msg143069#msg143069 date=1313147049]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12054.msg143052#msg143052 date=1313119059]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12054.msg143051#msg143051 date=1313118264]
No it is not. Immaculate conception is that St Mary herself was born without sin. We, Orthodox, do not believe in this heresy.
What I said was that the born of the Theotokos, the Child Jesus, was without sin.
don't you think that doesn't make since Saint Mary was fully human. The effects of the original sin, which includes the punishment unto women, must be in Saint Mary for the Birth to be a fully human birth?
We do not inherit the sin of Adam a d Eve. Rather we inherit the I corruption that the sin brough
There is nothing called the original sin in the Orthodox theology.
the old sin, the sin of Adam and Eve that brought us to this corruptible nature....you know what i mean.
We do not inherit the sin of Adam and Eve. Rather we inherit the corruption that the sin brought - the fallen nature that Christ came and renewed through His death, resurrection, and ascension.
We do not inherit the sin of Adam and Eve. Rather we inherit the corruption that the sin brought - the fallen nature that Christ came and renewed through His death, resurrection, and ascension.
i didn't say anything against that.
I like to say always that we inherit the "consequences of Adam's sin"....which included the fallen nature and also the punishment for the sin. the punishment was a consequence that is now part of our nature. When Christ saved us on the Cross, did that stop the punishment to women (to give birth without pain) or to men (to stop working to work and eat from his own hands' doing)?! No.........
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12054.msg143071#msg143071 date=1313148496]
We do not inherit the sin of Adam and Eve. Rather we inherit the corruption that the sin brought - the fallen nature that Christ came and renewed through His death, resurrection, and ascension.
i didn't say anything against that.
I like to say always that we inherit the "consequences of Adam's sin"....which included the fallen nature and also the punishment for the sin. the punishment was a consequence that is now part of our nature. When Christ saved us on the Cross, did that stop the punishment to women (to give birth without pain) or to men (to stop working to work and eat from his own hands' doing)?! No.........
I am not sure I follow your argument ... St. Mary's conception was a miracle, the born of her womb is God, thus it is very likely she did not experience pain because of His Holiness.
St. Mary's conception was a miracle, the born of her womb is God, thus it is very likely she did not experience pain because of His Holiness.
What i am saying is that pain of birth, the contractions, are part of being human:
Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children."
you take that away, you do not have a human birth, and if not a human birth, than He is not a full human.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12054.msg143060#msg143060 date=1313132556]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12054.msg143055#msg143055 date=1313128956]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
The thing is though, one was prophesied about (the Virgin birth and the perpetual Virginity). A painless birth wasn't. Additionally, we do have the curse God gave the woman. But like you said, anything is possible.
I am not sure if there are no prophesies saying the Virgin will give birth without pain. Have you looked into it?
In all honesty, I haven't. When I get a chance though, I'll certainly try to. It would be interesting.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12054.msg143060#msg143060 date=1313132556]
As a funny aside (well sort of funny), a friend told me of a sunday school teacher who was explaining St. Mary's giving birth to Christ in which she was asked how the theotokos' virginity was sealed. This servant went ahead and told the kid's that Jesus came out of her side!!
An example of what happens when we don't understand things yet hastily try to reconcile them without proper research.
:o Wow! I don't understand why some people would do this. Sometimes a mystery is just a mystery and we should be happy enough with that. Though I believe the prophet's analogy of a door being opened to allow the King of Glory to enter and then being shut and sealed would have sufficed.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12054.msg143060#msg143060 date=1313132556]
As a funny aside (well sort of funny), a friend told me of a sunday school teacher who was explaining St. Mary's giving birth to Christ in which she was asked how the theotokos' virginity was sealed. This servant went ahead and told the kid's that Jesus came out of her side!!
An example of what happens when we don't understand things yet hastily try to reconcile them without proper research.
:o Wow! I don't understand why some people would do this. Sometimes a mystery is just a mystery and we should be happy enough with that. Though I believe the prophet's analogy of a door being opened to allow the King of Glory to enter and then being shut and sealed would have sufficed.
actually...this really bothered me because i don't think it would be that hard for the servant to tell the child she simply she was always, even after the Birth, Virgin......ya3ny i think it's a matter of explaining some simple words rather than the entire mystery.........
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12054.msg143086#msg143086 date=1313161331]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12054.msg143060#msg143060 date=1313132556]
As a funny aside (well sort of funny), a friend told me of a sunday school teacher who was explaining St. Mary's giving birth to Christ in which she was asked how the theotokos' virginity was sealed. This servant went ahead and told the kid's that Jesus came out of her side!!
An example of what happens when we don't understand things yet hastily try to reconcile them without proper research.
:o Wow! I don't understand why some people would do this. Sometimes a mystery is just a mystery and we should be happy enough with that. Though I believe the prophet's analogy of a door being opened to allow the King of Glory to enter and then being shut and sealed would have sufficed.
actually...this really bothered me because i don't think it would be that hard for the servant to tell the child she simply she was always, even after the Birth, Virgin......ya3ny i think it's a matter of explaining some simple words rather than the entire mystery.........
Believe me, Mina, it bothered me as well.
"For He who was born is God, born without pain from the Father, and He was also born according to the flesh, without pain for the Virgin."
Here are some quotes from the Church Fathers:
St. Irenaeus Commentary on Isaiah 66:7,
"where the prophet foretells a remarkable repopulation of Jerusalem through Mother Zion and interprets it as spoken of the Virgin Mary who gave birth to a man child in unique fashion, without birth bangs. “Also concerning His birth, the same prophet (Isaiah) says in another place: “Before she who was in labour brought forth, and before pains of labour came, there came forth delivered a man child. He proclaimed this unlooked - for an extraordinary childbirth of the Virgin, thus affirming her virginity."
St. Gregory of Nyssa, On the Song of Songs 13
“As the Son has been given to us without a father, so the Child has been born without a birth. As the Virgin herself did not know how the body that received divinity was formed in her own body, so neither did she notice the birth. Even the prophet Isaiah affirms that her giving birth was without pain, when he says: ‘Before the pangs of birth arrived, a male child came forth and was born’ (Is 66:7)… Just as she who introduced death into nature by her sin was condemned to bear children in suffering and travail, it was necessary that the Mother of life, after having conceived in joy, should give birth in joy as well. No wonder that the angel said to her, ‘Rejoice, O full of grace!’ (Lk 1:28). With these words he took from her the burden of that sorrow which, from the beginning of creation, has been imposed on birth because of sin.”
St. Ephraim the Syrian: Explanations 2:6,8
"Just as (the Lord) made His entrance when the doors were closed, in the same way did He come forth from the Virgin’s womb, because this virgin really and truly gave birth without pain.... Her virginity remained safe and sound."
St. Augustine Sermon on Nativity
“In conceiving you were all pure, in giving birth you were without pain.”
Apocryphal Writings Odes of Solomon:
"According to the “Odes of Solomon”, she travailed and brought forth a son without incurring pain."
The second verse seems to indicate that there was pain before the birth and the first verse tells us that the actual birth was painless.
GB
Tony
St Severus of Antioch says that the Theotokos gave birth to Christ without the pains of child birth:
XXIX. ---- OF THE HOLY SEVERUS FROM THE 63rd LETTER OF THE 2nd BOOK OF THOSE WRITTEN DURING EPISCOPACY, TO ANTONINUS BISHOP OF BERRHOEA 213. [513-8.]
But we hear of the said Mara that he said this also as well, that the holy Virgin did not feel the birth, in manifest opposition to the Holy Spirit and to the Scriptures which were spoken by him. The loud-voiced among prophets, Isaiah, shows that he came forth from the bond of virginity like anything else, and he was ineffably born without rending her from Mary the God-bearer, saying thus, «Before she that travailed bare, and before the |89 pain of the travail came, she escaped and bare a male child» 214. The fact that she escaped shows that the birth took place with perception on the part of her who gave birth, and not in phantasy 215. So Gregory the Theologian also in the sermon about Easter says of the birth of the babe when it is born: «But she also cried 216 from the compulsion of the virgin and maternal bonds, with great power, when a male child was born from the prophetess, as Isaiah announces» 217. How could the fact that she cried from the compulsion and did not rend the bond of virginity happen without perception, and not with such great perception as this oh the part of her who bare? And these things took place ineffably and beyond everything. He who wished to come truly in all our attributes, and to be made like to us his brethren without sin, was . certainly born in fleshly fashion by a manifest and true birth, causing perception in her who bare, free from all pain and suffering; for the prophet proclaims that she gave birth before the pain of the travail came. For how was she to be subjected to the trial of pains and anguish, who put an end to the bearing of children in anguish through the fact that joy was born for the whole race of men? For, «Lo!», he says, «I announce unto you great |90 joy, that is to all the people, that there hath been born to you to-day a Saviour, who is the Lord Christ» 218.
hope u like our cool site.
8)
thanks everyone for your quotes, and welcome, severian!
hope u like our cool site.
8)
Thanks! :)
And again, it is known that after the resurrection the bodies of ordinary people will undergo four changes. First: transparency (that is, permeability to material objects). And Christ revealed this by being born of a Virgin.
Anba Raphael explains this here. The short answer is yes the Virgin felt pain when she gave birth to Christ. If she had not then that would make Christs birth “not fully human” which is not true as he was fully human.