i downloaded it onto a mp3 player (can you even buy them anymore? it is so good to listen to music without being connected to the internet and frying your brain) and listened to it while cooking and while tidying the house
:-)
thanks for the nice discussion, not long till kiahk!
When Ibrahim Ayad went to the US in 2015, he said Tenen during an annual Tasbeha (Coptic Society Tasbeha on youtube). That's why I always thought it was part of the annual rite.
or maybe he was just the lead deacon and he had the microphone!
:p
;)
i say this (being a bit cheeky) as i am used to very small numbers at the night praises and i often go to one of the early liturgies so i have seen what happens with small numbers - they look around and whoever can remember the tune for the next part starts to sing (or if the subdeacons are lost, sometimes the congregation helps them out!)
I thought @minatasgeel once said (if I am not mistaken) that it is usually sung during long tasbeha services, hence why it was incorporated into Kiahk and Bright Saturday.. Is that correct? Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
Ok so some of you say it's part of the annual rite, some not, I'm confused :(
A more general question, what are the sources of our Coptic rites? What I mean by that is how can I get more information on our original rites (all of them) and the different schools that developped throughout the centuries. What kind of research can I do (internet, books, manuscript, priests from Egypt)?
dear yoan, i think you have to keep researching till you are about 95 years old for that one! i have been following the debate on this website for 14 years and it never ends!
ophadece, great to 'see' you, i expect this is the practice in many churches (you would know).
jojo-hanna - hey have you been busy 'in real life'?! long time no post!
This has been a very controversial topic for a while. The current tasleem (handing down) according to Cantors Gad Lewis and Cantor Ibrahim Ayad is that they had originally received from their teachers that Tenen should only be said during the month of Kiahk, The Great Fast, and Bright Saturday. This rite is still observed by some cantors in Egypt and bishops such has HG Bishop Raphael. Mlm Gad commented that because these hymns were so rarely said over time they began to slowly incorporate them into the annual rite and now people chant them regularly.
I am not sure where did you get "The Great Fast" comment.
What is written in psalmody books, it is said in "Kiahk"...But then we can see it in rites books for Bright saturday, so some psalmodies started adding that. Then, some psalmodies say "..or any time," which in my opinion is redundant because "any time" would include Kiahk and Bright saturday praises.
rites ARE to be controlled and developed as needed based on the Church's need.
What Coptic Reader did here, despite my many disagreements with it, is not bad. It has already been agreed on that Tenen is mainly said in Kiahk and Bright Saturdays. And that what they followed. that's it.
HE Anba Youssef tends to make his views on the rites known through Coptic Reader, and the removal of Tenen from annual signals a move in a direction I like… no complaints from me
@Yoan I think minatasgeel and ophadece are the best to recommend books and sources. The ones that come to mind as being mentioned a lot are books from al-Maharraq Monastery (Deir al-Maharraq) or Moallem Albeir.
Dear @Daniel_Kyrillos, Thank you very much for naming me but I can only vouch for @minatasgeel - I am not very well versed when it comes to rites books.. I wish I was.. Thanks a lot once again.. Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
Albair is most definitely a Muallem. Whether you agree or disagree with him is another story, but you can’t deny that he is a servant and yuteacher who’s dedicated his life to serving the church through the means of handing down and preserving Her hymnology. God bless.
No he is not. A Muallim is one who graduated from the Institute of Cantors of St. Didymus in Egypt. They actually have a certification and is the only recognized institute by the Patriarchate. These aren’t just some guys who learn a bunch of things. They learn ALL of the hymns in the church. It’s like saying someone who has read all the texts books for medical school is a doctor. No, only those who graduate medical school are doctors. Same with Muallimeen.
We need to stop talking about specific individuals.
That being said, @David_the_King. No, that is not what defines a 'muallem' despite what some may advertise to be now (and I know that minamakar is one). For the last 50 years, the idea of a muallem has been disliked and discouraged so that we can go back to having a "chorus" lead the "people" as it should be and how the Church was intended to pray. Now, that we have successful choruses and chanters (yes, plural) in many churches in USA and Canada and Europe (basically everywhere outside Egypt), why would we try to get back to something that may be detrimental to the chanting dynamic in the Church?!
What you recognize as moalem is not the same as what the Pope/Church recognizes as moalem. We can’t choose to follow the Church in some things and not others when we don’t agree.
Hi King David lol, According to your argument prior to the Hymns Institute, the Coptic Orthodox Church has never had a single Cantor as the institute had not yet been made. Let’s take it even further, with your ‘interesting’ logic Cantor Mikhail the Great was never even a Muallem :)) Does that also mean that priests being ordained these days are not “true” presbyters in the Holy Orthodox Church since they do not attend the Seminary like back then? Very weak argument.
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Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
i have been following the debate on this website for 14 years and it never ends!
@Yoan I think minatasgeel and ophadece are the best to recommend books and sources. The ones that come to mind as being mentioned a lot are books from al-Maharraq Monastery (Deir al-Maharraq) or Moallem Albeir.
Thank you very much for naming me but I can only vouch for @minatasgeel - I am not very well versed when it comes to rites books.. I wish I was.. Thanks a lot once again..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
According to your argument prior to the Hymns Institute, the Coptic Orthodox Church has never had a single Cantor as the institute had not yet been made. Let’s take it even further, with your ‘interesting’ logic Cantor Mikhail the Great was never even a Muallem :))
Does that also mean that priests being ordained these days are not “true” presbyters in the Holy Orthodox Church since they do not attend the Seminary like back then?
Very weak argument.