I would just like to say that i agree with every word posted by xaira. I believe we are supposed to worship God for His pleasure, not ours. If preaching the gospel to Australians with the potential of adding more to the church has the cost of changing our favourite hymns or tunes (In the new churches only!), shouldn’t we be willing to do so? I am sure God will be more pleased with more people praising him with assorted tongues rather than less people, but all praising in Coptic. Philippians 2:3-4 "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others." Are we thinking of the interests of the Australian people which may find Christ in one of these churches?
As a Christian church isn’t it a commandment of God to bring more people to Christ? Mark 16:15-16 "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature..."" Also Jesus said in Luke 4:43 "I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent."
Since the Coptic language is a part of our tradition and not belief, should we let it get in the way of the commandments of God? Matthew 15:3 "He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?" Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men" Isaiah 29:13 ”Their worship of me is made up only of the rules taught by men”
I don't think the language or tune we praise God in makes a difference but rather our hearts do, and if this new church has a chance of bringing more hearts to God then we should support it.
droit4jesus, thank you for those quotes. It is on the basis of these Bible verses and the Church Tradition that I disgree with jono. I'm sorry, but the Holy Synod is not infallible, if they make a decision that is agianst the Bible and Tradition it is not the decision of the Holy Spirit.
That being said, I would hope that the AOC would not change the texts of the hymns that drastically. I've had my fill of the COC borrowing ad hoc bad Protestant charismatic praise songs of questionable theological merit and passing them off as "hymns". And both my husband and I find the tunes done by the St. Anthony Monastery of California to be easy enough to learn, though I can understand how a western style of chanting (like Gregorian) would be more palatable to a western ear (it has full notes!). But I have little idea what the AOC was actually planning to do and change. For example, the British Orthodox Church follows the liturgy of St. James, not St. Basil, yet follows all the Coptic rubrics. I have never heard them sing a liturgy (either live or recording) so I don't know how they chant it, never got a straight answer from my BOC contacts. Since I can't read French that well, I don't know much about how the French Coptic Orthodox Church do things. Their website says that they follow both the St. Basil liturgy as well as Ordinaire de la divine liturgie selon l’Ancien Rite des Gaules (Ordinary of the Divine Liturgy according to the ancient French rite) http://eocf.free.fr/liturgie_gaule.htm. And their icon page includes both traditional Coptic saints as well as western ones like St. Martin of Tours (who, as pre-chalcedonian, can be considered fully Orthodox by us OO).
If the Holy Synod did not approve the AOC I would not take that to mean that it will never happen. Pope Shenouda has already had the precedent of having churches with the structure of the AOC, that is no longer an issue. It would likely be up to how well prepared the AOC organizers are, how many members they expect, the structure they have in place to actually make it happen, and what kind of ecclesiological formation they have going for it, remember, in the case of the French Coptic Orthodox Church Pope Shenouda immediately ordained a bishop (a native Dutchman) and an assistant bishop for the church. If the AOC can't make that happen at the moment then the Holy Synod may consider it best to shelve the project until all this can be pulled together better.
okay....so my question is: so all the white boys like me are gonna be chased out of the Coptic church on rails, forced to drive to an American Orthodox Church with our Bush stickers and Fish-plates, and sing "Just a closer walk with Thee" in Occidental tonology with a big organ played by Martha "from down the street"?
I have had an e-mail sent to me regarding a draft of the AOC including 16 main points regarding the church, to answer xaira, "bad Protestant charismatic praise songs of questionable theological merit and passing them off as "hymns"":
(2) For time during communion, introduce western, but churchy type music with Orthodox meaning and dogma.
And also to answer u_stole_my_name "all the white boys like me are gonna be chased out of the Coptic church on rails":
(12) Egyptian born Copts must refrain from migrating to such parish, as they are very well served by the existing 14 parishes.
I was the instigator of the discussion on the Australian Orthodox Church in our diocese web site www.coptic.org.au. I would like to make a few things clear.
As an Australian born Copt (34 years and still going strong) I felt that a discussion on the language and culture in our Orthodox Church was far overdue. I love my Church and I appreciate the tone used in the mass because I have grown up with it. It is familiar to my ear and works for me. I do not however speak Coptic nor do I have any desire to learn it.
As my wife and I are thinking of trying to have our first child (God willing) later this year I have started thinking about their future within my Church.
Does is seem right that they might have to learn Coptic in order to fully understand the mass? The traditions that my parents exposed me to as a natural part of our lives will not be present in my life with my potential children as I and my wife are Australian in every way.
I keep hearing over and over again that the Coptic language and tunes are fundamental to our Coptic Christianity and without them we loose much of what we are. This to me seems totally ridiculous. As mentioned in an earlier post... Did St Mark keep the language and culture he was brought up in when he began his mission in Egypt? Why don’t we all speak and pray in Hebrew or Aramaic?
I question the insistence that we must maintain the language and culture in order to maintain our Christian heritage. I will remain Christina regardless of the language, tunes or traditions I employ while worshiping.
I also question the effectiveness of any evangelical work to the local community when the basis of the culture we are introducing people to is predominantly Arab (and lets not kid ourselves... our culture is Arab).
The idea of an Australian Coptic Orthodox Church or American Coptic Orthodox Church is not to split or destroy the existing Church. There is obviously a need and desire to maintain the existing culture and traditions for those who love it. I am all for Coptic only masses and probably would attend once or twice a year.
BUT expecting a convert who is not attuned to the Coptic tunes to appreciate the mass in the same way as a person who has grown up listening to the Coptic tunes is an exercise in futility. It can happen but requires much commitment and effort on the individual’s behalf.
My point is why should they have to? Is the Coptic religion stamped “Made in Egypt” and as such limited to those who are Egyptian? If so then are we really a true church? Wasn’t one of Christ’s last commandments “Go and make disciples of the whole world”?
To be a true evangelical Christian Church we need to be flexible enough to cater to the requirements of the existing Egyptian flock and also cater for the new converts (and those who have married Copts and joined the Church community.)
Bishop Antonious Morcos quoted in a talk given at Abu Sefein Church in Sydney “Culture is the donkey Christ rode upon”. We all know what Christ went on to do. He lives on in all of us. I ask does anyone know what happened to that donkey? It died!
There is much more to be said… in a later post. I look forward to reading your comments.
Mark Sefein
P.S. In an earlier post it was mentioned that both HG Bishop Daniel and HH Pope Shenouda III rejected the idea of the Australian Coptic Orthodox Church. Not true! Please get all your facts straight before making claims.
P.P.S. Any one from the DC area reading this? Do you guys remember me and Mark & John Abdelmalek from our visits some years back? We still talk fondly of the wonderful hospitality you guys gave us! <grin>
The point is very clear! Orthodox Christianity in Australia is for everyone. Coptic is not, doesn't matter what the percentage. Just like Arabic is not and in some cases English is not. We as the Coptic Orthodox Church are not here to service ourselves. If we continue to do this we WILL dissapear into our own self rightousness.
It is our responsibility to spread the Word of God through Orthodoxy to the people of this Country in language they understand. We MUST set up an environment that will allow these converts to have the same Zeal that Copts do for Christ.(Not for a Language). We can only do this by providing the message in the form of a Mass in a language they understand. I know Coptic. I love the Coptic. But I am not going to close my mind and maintain something at the expense of others salvation. If I want to enjoy the Coptic I will enjoy it at my own expense, not at others.
Sacrifice! Change! These are words that some of us seem to think that History embraced, so we do not need to. How can we look at examples of Our own Orthodoxy being spread in non Arabic/English/Coptic speaking countries and not hope that we can do the same here. How can we read our Bibles and see how the early church spread the Word all over the world and not be moved by this. Christ is our REAL History and Heritige. People spreading the Word of God and Dying for Christ's Name is our History and Heritige.
What about our youth who are and will be in mixed marriges. Are we going to tell them that the message we are spreading is not only Christ's Message, but we have some hidden conditions,1) that you must maintain a percentage of Coptic 2) you must like tameia sandwiches 3) you must learn to yoodle like an indian at weddings . And thats just for starters....
I am sure we can find it in our hearts to have a Mass or a Church that can cater for these people.
[quote author=Ross link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=30#msg29664 date=1119962745] I am sure we can find it in our hearts to have a Mass or a Church that can cater for these people.
guys i truly respect each of ur opinion, but if this does happen and a church does cater 4 these people, more people will leave our church and wat would we have left??? wat would our fathers have accomplished?? all those thousands of centuries, struglin 2 keep the coptic faith strong an u wat 2 cater 4 some people who dont like coptic -sorry if i sound rude (i dont intend 2 upset anyone and if i have please 4give me) i am just extremely concerned with wat our society is turning into. :-\
For arguments sake say the AOC was establisehd what happens when our children grow up and want to go to it instead of the coptic orthdox what happens then??? what happens to the coptic to the culture to the heritage??? all that goes down the drain??? i dun understand how the english mass isnt enough?? Y WHATS RONGWITH IT??? is it a different type of english from what the rest of australia uses??? and the thought of sumone saying that not esablishing this church is unorthodox i think thats a load of rubbish. its what makes us who we are. we need to defend our faith. The english mass can be done in 100% english i dun understand what the problem is?? y would they want a different church??? and they will change it in lenth words tunes EVRYTHING. And what is it and egyptain culture which part of our mass has to do with culture????NOTHING. and the use of a PATHETIC excuse such as "they dun wanna accept egyptain culture" is absoulutly stupid. (Our mass has nuthing to do with culture except mabey the tunes but there not hard to get anyways. I was so happy to hear that an australina convert is trying to learn hymns to become a deacon i reakon that amazing and good on you and keep it up thats absoultly great!!!!)
[quote author=mazza link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29668 date=1119963775] guys i truly respect each of ur opinion, but if this does happen and a church does cater 4 these people, more people will leave our church
They would? Says who? The AOC says that they won't accept transfers from Coptic churches.
[quote author=mazza link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29668 date=1119963775]and wat would we have left??? wat would our fathers have accomplished??
They would have accomplished giving the Apostolic Christian Faith to a whole bunch of Australians and save their souls. I think that would make them very happy indeed.
[quote author=mazza link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29668 date=1119963775]all those thousands of centuries, struglin 2 keep the coptic faith strong an u wat 2 cater 4 some people who dont like coptic -sorry if i sound rude (i dont intend 2 upset anyone and if i have please 4give me) i am just extremely concerned with wat our society is turning into. :-\
Nobody said anybody didn't like Coptic, only that some Australians should be able to hold to the faith that was held without having to learn a very dead and very foreign language. I am sorry, but the Coptic faith is something seperate from the Coptic language. Yes, you can have one without the other.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] For arguments sake say the AOC was establisehd what happens when our children grow up and want to go to it instead of the coptic orthdox what happens then??? what happens to the coptic to the culture to the heritage??? all that goes down the drain???
I don't understand...the coptic language, culture and heritage will cease to exist if fewer people living in a place outside Egypt attend the Orthodox church of Egypt? First of all, what goes on in Coptic churches, except for the Christianity, is all middle eastern culture and heritage. The part that is "Coptic" there is Christian, more specifically, Orthodox Christianity. Any person of Egyptian desent who is Orthodox is practicing the thing in "Coptic" most important to their souls, and this is not dependent on whether they sing in Coptic or not. Second, in colleges and universities many people study Coptic language, culture, and heritage. I have met anti-Christian atheists in universities who can translate the Coptic socks off any Copt I know. The Coptic art is being studied, coptic architecture as well, coptic social structure, etc., all by non-Copts. While this is going on Copts have been burning pages of priceless Shenouda manuscripts as fuel (yes, this happened in the White Monastery before the scholars showed up and identified them) and ancient Coptic icons have been getting "fixed" by Copts to match current ideals. Who is safeguarding traditional Coptic culture here? Don't tell me that it has been the Coptic church and her alone, for that is doubly untrue. And honestly, if all Coptic churches immediately stopped using Bohairic in the liturgy tomorrow it certaintly wouldn't mean that no one in the world would know Bohairic anymore, it might even help our understanding of Bohairic. I'm being serious, which Coptic dialects are the best studied in the world? Sahidic and sub-Akhaimmic. How long has it been since the Coptic church used those in the liturgy? ........ Point. And just so you know, I asked for a copy of the draft proposal, and point 8 reads: "(8) Coptic and Greek lessons must be conducted for interested persons, so translation of remaining books take place at the hand of linguists." If you think the AOC plans on ignoring Coptic completely or flushing Coptic down the drain than you are sorely mistaken.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] i dun understand how the english mass isnt enough?? Y WHATS RONGWITH IT??? is it a different type of english from what the rest of australia uses???
Ummm, are you talking about English in the liturgy or English liturgies? I don't know how they do it in a church you go to, but last time I checked at the churches I frequent, most liturgies are done in a mix of Coptic, Arabic, and English. Even "All-English" liturgies being done on the random Saturday morning have a lot of Coptic and some Arabic hanging around anyways. Now, maybe you, growing up in the church and all, knows all these Coptic and Arabic hymns from the day you were born and never had to struggle with a poorly designed and badly translated liturgy book to help yourself get through a Coptic or Arabic hymn (I know Coptic remember? I know how bad the translations are. And that doesn't begin to talk about how bad the use of English grammar, spelling, and syntax is). But to those who didn't grow up hearing Arabic or Coptic, over half of the liturgy becomes intelligable and fustrating and instead of being able to pray with the rest of the church they feel lost and left out. Don't tell me this doesn't happen, I own my own liturgy book (have to) and I know it forwards and backwards and yet sometimes I will stand in church and be close to tears because everyone else is carrying on in Coptic or Arabic and I have no idea what they are doing because it's not in my book and I feel completely left out and disconnected from the rest of the people I am suppose to be praising God with, but can't, because I don't know what on earth they are saying. English liturgies, yeah right, if only. If we actually had that we probably wouldn't be in this "AOC or no" pickle right now.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] and the thought of sumone saying that not esablishing this church is unorthodox i think thats a load of rubbish. its what makes us who we are. we need to defend our faith.
What is your definition of "faith"? It seems to me that you base your faith on three things, Coptic language, Coptic culture, and Coptic heritage. Like I said to mazza, these things are quite seperate from the Orthodox Apostolic Faith which makes the Coptic Orthodox Church so wonderful. Let's keep our focus here, Christ has come, Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ is coming again. Let's defend that, ok? For without it we are nothing.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] The english mass can be done in 100% english i dun understand what the problem is?? y would they want a different church???
At present, the liturgy can not be in 100% English. How many times have you heard the Trisagion in English? How about Shere Maria? And that's just in regular liturgies. Check out Pascha week, how many of those have been sung in English? Seasonal doxologies and Fractions? Add onto this the fact that some things like the defnar are still struggling to see the light of day in a good English translation, and it becomes quite obvious that the Coptic Church simply can not offer people who speak English the same that it offers those who speak Arabic. This unfairness is one of the reasons why the AOC is so important.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] and they will change it in lenth words tunes EVRYTHING.
Oh? Who says the length will be changed? The length from which length to which length? I've attended Coptic liturgies that were little more than a hour (indeed). Will the length be changed from this length, or another length, and why would this matter? And no one ever said anything about the AOC changing the words, unless you mean a change from Coptic words to English words. The only thing said is that during Communion they will sing western hymns that hold to Orthodox teaching and dogma. I suspect they say this because already in Coptic churches after we get done doing Psalm 150 and there's still a crowd to get through Communion the deacons switch to singing little Arabic hymns, which usually are very recently written hymns in Arabic that have little connection to Coptic or Coptic history and, as I understand from others, the Rituals Committee is currently trying to revise all of these because apparently some contain gross errors of Orthodox doctrine because of the ignorances of their authors. When I first heard about using western hymns I feared because so many of those have bad UnOrthodox theology, but seeing as "Orthodox" means "Right Worship" I suspect the AOC to be heading to much more Orthodox waters with their choice of post-Psalm 150 Communion hymns than the Coptic Church has been in recently. And the tunes may have a theological meaning when they are matched with Coptic but, as I understand it from others, this meaning is lost when the words are translated and words get shifted around to different positions in the tune. Seeing as the AOC would use English, the Coptic tunes would automatically carry little meaning, and it is necessary, in order to be a rich and correct Orthodox church, to have tunes that enhance the meaning of the words of its hymns. And I don't know what the "EVERYTHING" covers. Vestments? Rubrics? Iconography? Is our Orthodoxy and faith in Christ dependent upon such trivial matters? Again, I ask what it matters.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] And what is it and egyptain culture which part of our mass has to do with culture????NOTHING. and the use of a PATHETIC excuse such as "they dun wanna accept egyptain culture" is absoulutly stupid. (Our mass has nuthing to do with culture
First, you set up your church as the safeguard of Coptic language, culture, and heritage and criticize those who don't use Coptic as betraying it, now you say that your church has nothing to do with being Egyptian. Of course your liturgy is connected to your culture, it's not called the Coptic Liturgy (of St. Basil) for nothing. It doesn't include prayers for the Nile for nothing. It doesn't celebrate the coming of the Holy Family into Egypt as a major feast for nothing. It doesn't claim a verse of the Old Testament that talks about an altar in Egypt as a prophecy about itself for nothing. It doesn't have icons of Joseph in pharonic dress for nothing. Icons of Mary and Jesus don't reflect the ancient pictures of Isis with Horus for nothing. The Coptic calender doesn't still follow the ancient Egyptian calender for nothing. Quite frankly, these things are important to you because you are Egyptian. To me, I care about the Holy Family in Egypt as much as I care about Jesus sending a picture of himself to King Agbar in Syria, the prophecies in the OT about the Patriarchate of Jerusalem number far greater than just one, and I just really don't care about the following the Egyptian calender, it is completely foreign to me and it hinders my ability to follow the lectionary and the Church year.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] except mabey the tunes but there not hard to get anyways. I was so happy to hear that an australina convert is trying to learn hymns to become a deacon i reakon that amazing and good on you and keep it up thats absoultly great!!!!)
I'm guessing you mean my husband, and I said before, and I'll say again, he finds the Coptic way of chanting completely impossible. He learned the Russian and Greek way of chanting just fine, but he just really can't make his voice warble around on minor half-keys for over a minute the way that most of the Coptic hymns demand. He has found the way of singing done by the St. Anthony monks of California to be helpful, but if you listen to them, they sound nearly Gregorian, their tunes are so flat. And my husband is Dutch, not Australian. Don't ask if he has figured out how to chant the Coptic tunes in Dutch yet, because no hymns have been translated into Dutch. You might not find the Coptic way of singing hard, but remember that you grew up on it and that way of singing is in your blood. It's simply not in the blood of the billions of non-Egyptian people, so please don't pass off judgment that "they're not hard" so hastily if you have never needed to struggle to attune your ear to them.
Let's realize what the Coptic Orthodox Church is. Apostolic, non-Chalcedonian, Orthodox. I applaud any Australian who finds their Christian faith in it, I know I did. It would be easier for these people to join with the Russian Church, which has a rich liturgical tradition in English and many books of theology and the Bible in English as well. It would have been much easier for me, as an American, to join an OCA church and not have to struggle with getting through liturgies I don't understand. But the theology and spiritual mysticism of the Coptic Orthodox Church drew me to it (I am a fan of the theology of St. Severus of Antioch ;) ) and so here I am. And it offends me to hear people state that I must take on the trappings of a middle eastern culture to be considered worthy to partake of these purely religious things. I know there must be Australians who feel the way I do, and other Australians who would feel this way if only they were given the chance. As uncomfortable as the AOC may make you feel personally, please consider what is best for furthering God's Kingdom in all parts of this globe.
I leave you with point 14 of the AOC draft: "(14) Australian Copt must respect Egyptian Copts and their ethnic tinges. Egyptian Copts must also respect Australian Copts and their ethnic tinges. However biblical matters and traditional matters of the FAITH (e.g. the 10 Commandments are not to be considered or treated as an ethnic tradition)."
And in this I echo point 16: "(16) I am hoping that I am not given the crown of martyrdom, before my time comes.(As a result of this short essay)"
I don't believe that the closed minded approach that some of you are adopting is the way that the Apostles and Diciples of the early church had. They went out of thier way to preach the Gospel and set up churches in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ in many different langages and cultures. If St Mark came to egypt and told the egyptians that they had to speak Aramaic because it was the Language of Christ, he would have been thrown out on his ear.
What you are telling australians and other nationalities is that we are Christians, but to become a Christian you must learn a language. If you maintain this approach THEN the church that you love so much will dissapear. The Church you are maintaining is THEN based on a languagea and culture, NOT on Sacraments, Dogma, Christ or Salvation.
We must take a leaf out of the Bible and evangalise to other nations and countries using the unique History and Dogma of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Remember Coptic is JUST A LANGUAGE, NOT A RELIGION. Christ is our religion and this is what we should be spreading.
If you want to disclude people from Christ that is up to you but look at what Christ did in the New Testament. He hung out with the SICK, the POOR, TAX COLLECTERS and Harlots. He Hung out with the sinners to the DISGUST of the Phrasies.
It sounds to me like we have forgotten what Christ came to earth to do......DIE FOR OUR SINS! We are becoming more like the Pharasies of that time. Abiding by the tradition and letter of the Law, being selfish, but with no understanding of Christs message.
Please re evaluate your feelings towards this and hope that all people know Christ like the Coptic Orthodox Church knows Christ. NOT that all people know Coptic like we know Coptic.
Instead of "irini pasi", the Paps (instead of "Abouna") says, "Fair dinkum"
Blokes on the left side....sheilahs on the right side
Shiraz is used for the Communion wine.....
After the raising of incense, they sing "Waltzing Matilda"....
But seriously folks.....I'm a white, American, Midwest, ex-Protestant male, and I'd rather be in a genuine Coptic Church than in some cracker-fied American (or Australian) Orthodox church...but hey, that's just me.
I don't think the BOC or FCOC is "cracker-fied" or has anything like you imagine it to be like. I am sure that the AOC would take itself seriously enough to avoid the shiraz.
If you enjoy expressing your counter-American-culture self in the Coptic church, great. But I don't know how many Australians share in that emotion with you. And I sense that the AOC would keep itself from becoming a TULIP-fied version of orthdoxy, so I really can't mock at them. Because let's face it, the phrase "Western Orthodoxy" is not an inherent oxymoron.
[quote author=u_stole_my_name link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29724 date=1120002516] So how are they gonna work that out?
Instead of "irini pasi", the Paps (instead of "Abouna") says, "Fair dinkum"
Blokes on the left side....sheilahs on the right side
Shiraz is used for the Communion wine.....
After the raising of incense, they sing "Waltzing Matilda"....
But seriously folks.....I'm a white, American, Midwest, ex-Protestant male, and I'd rather be in a genuine Coptic Church than in some cracker-fied American (or Australian) Orthodox church...but hey, that's just me.
Haha.... I love it when American try to sound Australian... never quite get there <grin>
So here is an interesting point for you? So what if they did use your ideas in the Church? Is it really very different from praying in Arabic and using Arabic local slang and saying in Egypt? It might sound like a joke (not too many people still use the term Shelia any more but I still hear the occasional "fair dinkum" every now and then) but the reality is that God would not make a distinction in the language used, only on what’s in the hearts of the people praying.
If they were to say "right on" instead of "indeed" please tell me what the difference is to God?
I know I'm suggesting some "crazy stuff" but if we stop and think is it "That" crazy?
No one has every explained to me why I have to speak Coptic or pray in a particular tune in order to respect and remember the Saints and Martyrs who died for our fair. I Don’t speak Coptic and the tunes I pray in are irrelevant to me... But I can read and learn about any historical figures in our Church just as well as the next person... and that is what I will pass onto my future children (God willing).
(1) Coptic Language is part of Egypt's ethnic Culture. All Egyptian Coptic Orthodox must use in their mass and prayers. (2) English Language is needed in masses dedicated for other nationalities. If born in America or England, from non egyptian parent, why must I learn the language? I need to understand every (I mean every) word in the mass. I need to catch up on my faith. (3) The Holy Spirit on the day of Penticost selected multiple languages. He did not force one certain language? (4) The Bible was written in Greek (Not Coptic) (5) Saint Mark spoke Greek, and wrote his Gospel in Egypt in Greek. (6) Youth of Egyptian Ethnic Origin who were born away from Egypt are resorthing to other denominations to escape the heavy ethnic nature of their own chuch? How many youth are with Hill Song? How many youth are with the "Salvation of Souls" socity which after many years in America now produced their own English type Evangelical Church. (7) The latest Keraza magazine warned Copts from Melbourne Australia from joining "Gospel Beacon Church"
Let Coptic remain as good ethnic heritage within the Ethnic Egyptian Churches. But decide if we are obliged to evangelise or not?
Also we must honstly ask ourselves, should we insist to baptise people entering in a mixed marriage? Or should we advice them to join a traditional church (Like the Catholics) which speaks English? My definate preference is to serve them in English and establish a special parish for them as part of the Coptic Church, but speaks and chants only in English? (6)
It would rather seem that you are clue-less. No-one of us who have come to the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, under the spiritual fatherhood of HH Pope Shenouda III want to attack the Coptic Orthodox Church. Rather we seek to protect and promote it. But it is Orthodoxy that makes us Christians. Not our national heritage, be it Egyptian or otherwise.
Conspiracy theories, as much fun as they may be in a James-Bond movie, have no usual place in real life. In this case, I think, it obviously has not. Suggesting such things is likely to increase frictions and division rather than loving dialogue. Participating in loving dialogue keeps the devil out, hurling accusations of conspiracy theories (or something in that vain) brings the devil in.
It is my hope and prayer we can continue this in peace, love and respect so that we may not quench the Holy Spirit and drive Him out of our dialogue. I hope you will pray with me, so that in one Spirit we may be united as we are united in one Body, the Coptic Orthodox Church of Christ.
[quote author=Safaa link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29799 date=1120078131] I just have one question, any one please answer:
Why are people registering in this website just the last couple of days including today to only participate in this thread?
I have a clue , in order to attack our beloved COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH.
So please, be careful of those who pretend to care about our children and they have only one agenda.
I think your clue is a little off... I have been a member of Tasbeha.org for over a year and I have been reading the forums during that time. Now I find something that is of interest to me so I respond...
There is no conspiricy<sp?> to attack our church... only healthy debate as is our right to do.
Please dont talk as if you know what is in the mind of others. I wonder what your agenda might be?
If you remain in the COPTIC CHURCH, without splitting Her, then all of us will share in the one body.
And no one is suggesting that anyone leave or split the Coptic Church. Only that we use the language relavent to the country in which the Church is in.
In Africa they speak, pray and sing in African... in our Coptic Church. They have different tunes in their local language. They have achieved it and its wonderfull to listen to. Why is it such a struggle for us?
Thank you for responding the way you did. This gives dialogue hope and strength!
To divide or unite is not in my power, to repent of my sins and to share Christ with those in need of Him, that they may find life in Christ in the Coptic Orthodox Church is. Such is Christ's great commission.
I wonder what Coptic means to you in relation to Orthodox? This might help me understand you better.
hey guys u can probably tell from my name that i am from sydney i hab been on this site b4 and know it fairly well. i dont want to take any sides in dis debate but i would jus like to say dont attack the people trying to create this "Ausralian Orthodox Church" if anything they are doing it out of their love for God. i believe that this thread has gone way out of line and it has become a distresful site to see others debating in quite a harmful way on a topic that should have finished a while ago. brothers and sisters the lord does not care whether we worship him in a language other than our own he cares only that we worship him faithfully and truthfully. pelase now i ask you with all my heart that wee see through this huge dilemma and get on with the more imporrtant things which could be spoken about. ps(forgive me if i have said anything which offends anyone) Yours in christ Justin
Comments
- frog u can pm me if u don wana say it aloud
thanx
I believe we are supposed to worship God for His pleasure, not ours. If preaching the gospel to Australians with the potential of adding more to the church has the cost of changing our favourite hymns or tunes (In the new churches only!), shouldn’t we be willing to do so? I am sure God will be more pleased with more people praising him with assorted tongues rather than less people, but all praising in Coptic.
Philippians 2:3-4 "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others."
Are we thinking of the interests of the Australian people which may find Christ in one of these churches?
As a Christian church isn’t it a commandment of God to bring more people to Christ?
Mark 16:15-16 "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature...""
Also Jesus said in Luke 4:43 "I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent."
Since the Coptic language is a part of our tradition and not belief, should we let it get in the way of the commandments of God?
Matthew 15:3 "He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?"
Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men"
Isaiah 29:13 ”Their worship of me is made up only of the rules taught by men”
I don't think the language or tune we praise God in makes a difference but rather our hearts do, and if this new church has a chance of bringing more hearts to God then we should support it.
That being said, I would hope that the AOC would not change the texts of the hymns that drastically. I've had my fill of the COC borrowing ad hoc bad Protestant charismatic praise songs of questionable theological merit and passing them off as "hymns". And both my husband and I find the tunes done by the St. Anthony Monastery of California to be easy enough to learn, though I can understand how a western style of chanting (like Gregorian) would be more palatable to a western ear (it has full notes!). But I have little idea what the AOC was actually planning to do and change. For example, the British Orthodox Church follows the liturgy of St. James, not St. Basil, yet follows all the Coptic rubrics. I have never heard them sing a liturgy (either live or recording) so I don't know how they chant it, never got a straight answer from my BOC contacts. Since I can't read French that well, I don't know much about how the French Coptic Orthodox Church do things. Their website says that they follow both the St. Basil liturgy as well as Ordinaire de la divine liturgie selon l’Ancien Rite des Gaules (Ordinary of the Divine Liturgy according to the ancient French rite) http://eocf.free.fr/liturgie_gaule.htm. And their icon page includes both traditional Coptic saints as well as western ones like St. Martin of Tours (who, as pre-chalcedonian, can be considered fully Orthodox by us OO).
If the Holy Synod did not approve the AOC I would not take that to mean that it will never happen. Pope Shenouda has already had the precedent of having churches with the structure of the AOC, that is no longer an issue. It would likely be up to how well prepared the AOC organizers are, how many members they expect, the structure they have in place to actually make it happen, and what kind of ecclesiological formation they have going for it, remember, in the case of the French Coptic Orthodox Church Pope Shenouda immediately ordained a bishop (a native Dutchman) and an assistant bishop for the church. If the AOC can't make that happen at the moment then the Holy Synod may consider it best to shelve the project until all this can be pulled together better.
I mean: is there a choice in this matter?
(2) For time during communion, introduce western, but churchy type music with Orthodox meaning and dogma.
And also to answer u_stole_my_name "all the white boys like me are gonna be chased out of the Coptic church on rails":
(12) Egyptian born Copts must refrain from migrating to such parish, as they are very well served by the existing 14 parishes.
I was the instigator of the discussion on the Australian Orthodox Church in our diocese web site www.coptic.org.au. I would like to make a few things clear.
As an Australian born Copt (34 years and still going strong) I felt that a discussion on the language and culture in our Orthodox Church was far overdue. I love my Church and I appreciate the tone used in the mass because I have grown up with it. It is familiar to my ear and works for me. I do not however speak Coptic nor do I have any desire to learn it.
As my wife and I are thinking of trying to have our first child (God willing) later this year I have started thinking about their future within my Church.
Does is seem right that they might have to learn Coptic in order to fully understand the mass? The traditions that my parents exposed me to as a natural part of our lives will not be present in my life with my potential children as I and my wife are Australian in every way.
I keep hearing over and over again that the Coptic language and tunes are fundamental to our Coptic Christianity and without them we loose much of what we are. This to me seems totally ridiculous. As mentioned in an earlier post... Did St Mark keep the language and culture he was brought up in when he began his mission in Egypt? Why don’t we all speak and pray in Hebrew or Aramaic?
I question the insistence that we must maintain the language and culture in order to maintain our Christian heritage. I will remain Christina regardless of the language, tunes or traditions I employ while worshiping.
I also question the effectiveness of any evangelical work to the local community when the basis of the culture we are introducing people to is predominantly Arab (and lets not kid ourselves... our culture is Arab).
The idea of an Australian Coptic Orthodox Church or American Coptic Orthodox Church is not to split or destroy the existing Church. There is obviously a need and desire to maintain the existing culture and traditions for those who love it. I am all for Coptic only masses and probably would attend once or twice a year.
BUT expecting a convert who is not attuned to the Coptic tunes to appreciate the mass in the same way as a person who has grown up listening to the Coptic tunes is an exercise in futility. It can happen but requires much commitment and effort on the individual’s behalf.
My point is why should they have to? Is the Coptic religion stamped “Made in Egypt” and as such limited to those who are Egyptian? If so then are we really a true church? Wasn’t one of Christ’s last commandments “Go and make disciples of the whole world”?
To be a true evangelical Christian Church we need to be flexible enough to cater to the requirements of the existing Egyptian flock and also cater for the new converts (and those who have married Copts and joined the Church community.)
Bishop Antonious Morcos quoted in a talk given at Abu Sefein Church in Sydney “Culture is the donkey Christ rode upon”. We all know what Christ went on to do. He lives on in all of us. I ask does anyone know what happened to that donkey? It died!
There is much more to be said… in a later post. I look forward to reading your comments.
Mark Sefein
P.S. In an earlier post it was mentioned that both HG Bishop Daniel and HH Pope Shenouda III rejected the idea of the Australian Coptic Orthodox Church. Not true! Please get all your facts straight before making claims.
P.P.S. Any one from the DC area reading this? Do you guys remember me and Mark & John Abdelmalek from our visits some years back? We still talk fondly of the wonderful hospitality you guys gave us! <grin>
It is our responsibility to spread the Word of God through Orthodoxy to the people of this Country in language they understand. We MUST set up an environment that will allow these converts to have the same Zeal that Copts do for Christ.(Not for a Language). We can only do this by providing the message in the form of a Mass in a language they understand. I know Coptic. I love the Coptic. But I am not going to close my mind and maintain something at the expense of others salvation. If I want to enjoy the Coptic I will enjoy it at my own expense, not at others.
Sacrifice! Change! These are words that some of us seem to think that History embraced, so we do not need to. How can we look at examples of Our own Orthodoxy being spread in non Arabic/English/Coptic speaking countries and not hope that we can do the same here. How can we read our Bibles and see how the early church spread the Word all over the world and not be moved by this. Christ is our REAL History and Heritige. People spreading the Word of God and Dying for Christ's Name is our History and Heritige.
What about our youth who are and will be in mixed marriges. Are we going to tell them that the message we are spreading is not only Christ's Message, but we have some hidden conditions,1) that you must maintain a percentage of Coptic 2) you must like tameia sandwiches 3) you must learn to yoodle like an indian at weddings . And thats just for starters....
I am sure we can find it in our hearts to have a Mass or a Church that can cater for these people.
I am sure we can find it in our hearts to have a Mass or a Church that can cater for these people.
guys i truly respect each of ur opinion, but if this does happen and a church does cater 4 these people, more people will leave our church and wat would we have left??? wat would our fathers have accomplished?? all those thousands of centuries, struglin 2 keep the coptic faith strong an u wat 2 cater 4 some people who dont like coptic
-sorry if i sound rude (i dont intend 2 upset anyone and if i have please 4give me)
i am just extremely concerned with wat our society is turning into. :-\
The english mass can be done in 100% english i dun understand what the problem is?? y would they want a different church???
and they will change it in lenth words tunes EVRYTHING.
And what is it and egyptain culture which part of our mass has to do with culture????NOTHING. and the use of a PATHETIC excuse such as "they dun wanna accept egyptain culture" is absoulutly stupid. (Our mass has nuthing to do with culture except mabey the tunes but there not hard to get anyways.
I was so happy to hear that an australina convert is trying to learn hymns to become a deacon i reakon that amazing and good on you and keep it up thats absoultly great!!!!)
[quote author=mazza link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29668 date=1119963775]
guys i truly respect each of ur opinion, but if this does happen and a church does cater 4 these people, more people will leave our church
They would? Says who? The AOC says that they won't accept transfers from Coptic churches.
[quote author=mazza link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29668 date=1119963775]and wat would we have left??? wat would our fathers have accomplished??
They would have accomplished giving the Apostolic Christian Faith to a whole bunch of Australians and save their souls. I think that would make them very happy indeed.
[quote author=mazza link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29668 date=1119963775]all those thousands of centuries, struglin 2 keep the coptic faith strong an u wat 2 cater 4 some people who dont like coptic
-sorry if i sound rude (i dont intend 2 upset anyone and if i have please 4give me)
i am just extremely concerned with wat our society is turning into. :-\
Nobody said anybody didn't like Coptic, only that some Australians should be able to hold to the faith that was held without having to learn a very dead and very foreign language. I am sorry, but the Coptic faith is something seperate from the Coptic language. Yes, you can have one without the other.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307]
For arguments sake say the AOC was establisehd what happens when our children grow up and want to go to it instead of the coptic orthdox what happens then??? what happens to the coptic to the culture to the heritage??? all that goes down the drain???
I don't understand...the coptic language, culture and heritage will cease to exist if fewer people living in a place outside Egypt attend the Orthodox church of Egypt? First of all, what goes on in Coptic churches, except for the Christianity, is all middle eastern culture and heritage. The part that is "Coptic" there is Christian, more specifically, Orthodox Christianity. Any person of Egyptian desent who is Orthodox is practicing the thing in "Coptic" most important to their souls, and this is not dependent on whether they sing in Coptic or not. Second, in colleges and universities many people study Coptic language, culture, and heritage. I have met anti-Christian atheists in universities who can translate the Coptic socks off any Copt I know. The Coptic art is being studied, coptic architecture as well, coptic social structure, etc., all by non-Copts. While this is going on Copts have been burning pages of priceless Shenouda manuscripts as fuel (yes, this happened in the White Monastery before the scholars showed up and identified them) and ancient Coptic icons have been getting "fixed" by Copts to match current ideals. Who is safeguarding traditional Coptic culture here? Don't tell me that it has been the Coptic church and her alone, for that is doubly untrue. And honestly, if all Coptic churches immediately stopped using Bohairic in the liturgy tomorrow it certaintly wouldn't mean that no one in the world would know Bohairic anymore, it might even help our understanding of Bohairic. I'm being serious, which Coptic dialects are the best studied in the world? Sahidic and sub-Akhaimmic. How long has it been since the Coptic church used those in the liturgy? ........ Point. And just so you know, I asked for a copy of the draft proposal, and point 8 reads:
"(8) Coptic and Greek lessons must be conducted for interested persons,
so translation of remaining books take place at the hand of linguists."
If you think the AOC plans on ignoring Coptic completely or flushing Coptic down the drain than you are sorely mistaken.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] i dun understand how the english mass isnt enough?? Y WHATS RONGWITH IT??? is it a different type of english from what the rest of australia uses???
Ummm, are you talking about English in the liturgy or English liturgies? I don't know how they do it in a church you go to, but last time I checked at the churches I frequent, most liturgies are done in a mix of Coptic, Arabic, and English. Even "All-English" liturgies being done on the random Saturday morning have a lot of Coptic and some Arabic hanging around anyways. Now, maybe you, growing up in the church and all, knows all these Coptic and Arabic hymns from the day you were born and never had to struggle with a poorly designed and badly translated liturgy book to help yourself get through a Coptic or Arabic hymn (I know Coptic remember? I know how bad the translations are. And that doesn't begin to talk about how bad the use of English grammar, spelling, and syntax is). But to those who didn't grow up hearing Arabic or Coptic, over half of the liturgy becomes intelligable and fustrating and instead of being able to pray with the rest of the church they feel lost and left out. Don't tell me this doesn't happen, I own my own liturgy book (have to) and I know it forwards and backwards and yet sometimes I will stand in church and be close to tears because everyone else is carrying on in Coptic or Arabic and I have no idea what they are doing because it's not in my book and I feel completely left out and disconnected from the rest of the people I am suppose to be praising God with, but can't, because I don't know what on earth they are saying. English liturgies, yeah right, if only. If we actually had that we probably wouldn't be in this "AOC or no" pickle right now.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] and the thought of sumone saying that not esablishing this church is unorthodox i think thats a load of rubbish. its what makes us who we are. we need to defend our faith.
What is your definition of "faith"? It seems to me that you base your faith on three things, Coptic language, Coptic culture, and Coptic heritage. Like I said to mazza, these things are quite seperate from the Orthodox Apostolic Faith which makes the Coptic Orthodox Church so wonderful. Let's keep our focus here, Christ has come, Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ is coming again. Let's defend that, ok? For without it we are nothing.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] The english mass can be done in 100% english i dun understand what the problem is?? y would they want a different church???
At present, the liturgy can not be in 100% English. How many times have you heard the Trisagion in English? How about Shere Maria? And that's just in regular liturgies. Check out Pascha week, how many of those have been sung in English? Seasonal doxologies and Fractions? Add onto this the fact that some things like the defnar are still struggling to see the light of day in a good English translation, and it becomes quite obvious that the Coptic Church simply can not offer people who speak English the same that it offers those who speak Arabic. This unfairness is one of the reasons why the AOC is so important.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] and they will change it in lenth words tunes EVRYTHING.
Oh? Who says the length will be changed? The length from which length to which length? I've attended Coptic liturgies that were little more than a hour (indeed). Will the length be changed from this length, or another length, and why would this matter? And no one ever said anything about the AOC changing the words, unless you mean a change from Coptic words to English words. The only thing said is that during Communion they will sing western hymns that hold to Orthodox teaching and dogma. I suspect they say this because already in Coptic churches after we get done doing Psalm 150 and there's still a crowd to get through Communion the deacons switch to singing little Arabic hymns, which usually are very recently written hymns in Arabic that have little connection to Coptic or Coptic history and, as I understand from others, the Rituals Committee is currently trying to revise all of these because apparently some contain gross errors of Orthodox doctrine because of the ignorances of their authors. When I first heard about using western hymns I feared because so many of those have bad UnOrthodox theology, but seeing as "Orthodox" means "Right Worship" I suspect the AOC to be heading to much more Orthodox waters with their choice of post-Psalm 150 Communion hymns than the Coptic Church has been in recently. And the tunes may have a theological meaning when they are matched with Coptic but, as I understand it from others, this meaning is lost when the words are translated and words get shifted around to different positions in the tune. Seeing as the AOC would use English, the Coptic tunes would automatically carry little meaning, and it is necessary, in order to be a rich and correct Orthodox church, to have tunes that enhance the meaning of the words of its hymns. And I don't know what the "EVERYTHING" covers. Vestments? Rubrics? Iconography? Is our Orthodoxy and faith in Christ dependent upon such trivial matters? Again, I ask what it matters.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] And what is it and egyptain culture which part of our mass has to do with culture????NOTHING. and the use of a PATHETIC excuse such as "they dun wanna accept egyptain culture" is absoulutly stupid. (Our mass has nuthing to do with culture
First, you set up your church as the safeguard of Coptic language, culture, and heritage and criticize those who don't use Coptic as betraying it, now you say that your church has nothing to do with being Egyptian. Of course your liturgy is connected to your culture, it's not called the Coptic Liturgy (of St. Basil) for nothing. It doesn't include prayers for the Nile for nothing. It doesn't celebrate the coming of the Holy Family into Egypt as a major feast for nothing. It doesn't claim a verse of the Old Testament that talks about an altar in Egypt as a prophecy about itself for nothing. It doesn't have icons of Joseph in pharonic dress for nothing. Icons of Mary and Jesus don't reflect the ancient pictures of Isis with Horus for nothing. The Coptic calender doesn't still follow the ancient Egyptian calender for nothing. Quite frankly, these things are important to you because you are Egyptian. To me, I care about the Holy Family in Egypt as much as I care about Jesus sending a picture of himself to King Agbar in Syria, the prophecies in the OT about the Patriarchate of Jerusalem number far greater than just one, and I just really don't care about the following the Egyptian calender, it is completely foreign to me and it hinders my ability to follow the lectionary and the Church year.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=45#msg29670 date=1119965307] except mabey the tunes but there not hard to get anyways.
I was so happy to hear that an australina convert is trying to learn hymns to become a deacon i reakon that amazing and good on you and keep it up thats absoultly great!!!!)
I'm guessing you mean my husband, and I said before, and I'll say again, he finds the Coptic way of chanting completely impossible. He learned the Russian and Greek way of chanting just fine, but he just really can't make his voice warble around on minor half-keys for over a minute the way that most of the Coptic hymns demand. He has found the way of singing done by the St. Anthony monks of California to be helpful, but if you listen to them, they sound nearly Gregorian, their tunes are so flat. And my husband is Dutch, not Australian. Don't ask if he has figured out how to chant the Coptic tunes in Dutch yet, because no hymns have been translated into Dutch. You might not find the Coptic way of singing hard, but remember that you grew up on it and that way of singing is in your blood. It's simply not in the blood of the billions of non-Egyptian people, so please don't pass off judgment that "they're not hard" so hastily if you have never needed to struggle to attune your ear to them.
Let's realize what the Coptic Orthodox Church is. Apostolic, non-Chalcedonian, Orthodox. I applaud any Australian who finds their Christian faith in it, I know I did. It would be easier for these people to join with the Russian Church, which has a rich liturgical tradition in English and many books of theology and the Bible in English as well. It would have been much easier for me, as an American, to join an OCA church and not have to struggle with getting through liturgies I don't understand. But the theology and spiritual mysticism of the Coptic Orthodox Church drew me to it (I am a fan of the theology of St. Severus of Antioch ;) ) and so here I am. And it offends me to hear people state that I must take on the trappings of a middle eastern culture to be considered worthy to partake of these purely religious things. I know there must be Australians who feel the way I do, and other Australians who would feel this way if only they were given the chance. As uncomfortable as the AOC may make you feel personally, please consider what is best for furthering God's Kingdom in all parts of this globe.
I leave you with point 14 of the AOC draft:
"(14) Australian Copt must respect Egyptian Copts and their ethnic
tinges. Egyptian Copts must also respect Australian Copts and their
ethnic tinges. However biblical matters and traditional matters of the
FAITH (e.g. the 10 Commandments are not to be considered or treated as
an ethnic tradition)."
And in this I echo point 16:
"(16) I am hoping that I am not given the crown of martyrdom, before my
time comes.(As a result of this short essay)"
I don't believe that the closed minded approach that some of you are adopting is the way that the Apostles and Diciples of the early church had.
They went out of thier way to preach the Gospel and set up churches in the Name of The Lord Jesus Christ in many different langages and cultures. If St Mark came to egypt and told the egyptians that they had to speak Aramaic because it was the Language of Christ, he would have been thrown out on his ear.
What you are telling australians and other nationalities is that we are Christians, but to become a Christian you must learn a language. If you maintain this approach THEN the church that you love so much will dissapear. The Church you are maintaining is THEN based on a languagea and culture, NOT on Sacraments, Dogma, Christ or Salvation.
We must take a leaf out of the Bible and evangalise to other nations and countries using the unique History and Dogma of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Remember Coptic is JUST A LANGUAGE, NOT A RELIGION. Christ is our religion and this is what we should be spreading.
If you want to disclude people from Christ that is up to you but look at what Christ did in the New Testament. He hung out with the SICK, the POOR, TAX COLLECTERS and Harlots. He Hung out with the sinners to the DISGUST of the Phrasies.
It sounds to me like we have forgotten what Christ came to earth to do......DIE FOR OUR SINS! We are becoming more like the Pharasies of that time. Abiding by the tradition and letter of the Law, being selfish, but with no understanding of Christs message.
Please re evaluate your feelings towards this and hope that all people know Christ like the Coptic Orthodox Church knows Christ. NOT that all people know Coptic like we know Coptic.
God Bless
Instead of "irini pasi", the Paps (instead of "Abouna") says, "Fair dinkum"
Blokes on the left side....sheilahs on the right side
Shiraz is used for the Communion wine.....
After the raising of incense, they sing "Waltzing Matilda"....
But seriously folks.....I'm a white, American, Midwest, ex-Protestant male, and I'd rather be in a genuine Coptic Church than in some cracker-fied American (or Australian) Orthodox church...but hey, that's just me.
I don't think the BOC or FCOC is "cracker-fied" or has anything like you imagine it to be like. I am sure that the AOC would take itself seriously enough to avoid the shiraz.
If you enjoy expressing your counter-American-culture self in the Coptic church, great. But I don't know how many Australians share in that emotion with you. And I sense that the AOC would keep itself from becoming a TULIP-fied version of orthdoxy, so I really can't mock at them. Because let's face it, the phrase "Western Orthodoxy" is not an inherent oxymoron.
So how are they gonna work that out?
Instead of "irini pasi", the Paps (instead of "Abouna") says, "Fair dinkum"
Blokes on the left side....sheilahs on the right side
Shiraz is used for the Communion wine.....
After the raising of incense, they sing "Waltzing Matilda"....
But seriously folks.....I'm a white, American, Midwest, ex-Protestant male, and I'd rather be in a genuine Coptic Church than in some cracker-fied American (or Australian) Orthodox church...but hey, that's just me.
Haha.... I love it when American try to sound Australian... never quite get there <grin>
So here is an interesting point for you? So what if they did use your ideas in the Church? Is it really very different from praying in Arabic and using Arabic local slang and saying in Egypt? It might sound like a joke (not too many people still use the term Shelia any more but I still hear the occasional "fair dinkum" every now and then) but the reality is that God would not make a distinction in the language used, only on what’s in the hearts of the people praying.
If they were to say "right on" instead of "indeed" please tell me what the difference is to God?
I know I'm suggesting some "crazy stuff" but if we stop and think is it "That" crazy?
No one has every explained to me why I have to speak Coptic or pray in a particular tune in order to respect and remember the Saints and Martyrs who died for our fair. I Don’t speak Coptic and the tunes I pray in are irrelevant to me... But I can read and learn about any historical figures in our Church just as well as the next person... and that is what I will pass onto my future children (God willing).
God bless
Mark Sefein
No, I am not mad at you.
ExGreek
Who's that guy? ???
(1) Coptic Language is part of Egypt's ethnic Culture. All Egyptian Coptic Orthodox must use in their mass and prayers.
(2) English Language is needed in masses dedicated for other nationalities. If born in America or England, from non egyptian parent, why must I learn the language? I need to understand every (I mean every) word in the mass. I need to catch up on my faith.
(3) The Holy Spirit on the day of Penticost selected multiple languages. He did not force one certain language?
(4) The Bible was written in Greek (Not Coptic)
(5) Saint Mark spoke Greek, and wrote his Gospel in Egypt in Greek.
(6) Youth of Egyptian Ethnic Origin who were born away from Egypt are resorthing to other denominations to escape the heavy ethnic nature of their own chuch? How many youth are with Hill Song? How many youth are with the "Salvation of Souls" socity which after many years in America now produced their own English type Evangelical Church.
(7) The latest Keraza magazine warned Copts from Melbourne Australia from joining "Gospel Beacon Church"
Let Coptic remain as good ethnic heritage within the Ethnic Egyptian Churches. But decide if we are obliged to evangelise or not?
Also we must honstly ask ourselves, should we insist to baptise people entering in a mixed marriage? Or should we advice them to join a traditional church (Like the Catholics) which speaks English? My definate preference is to serve them in English and establish a special parish for them as part of the Coptic Church, but speaks and chants only in English?
(6)
Why are people registering in this website just the last couple of days including today to only participate in this thread?
I have a clue , in order to attack our beloved COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH.
So please, be careful of those who pretend to care about our children and they have only one agenda.
It would rather seem that you are clue-less. No-one of us who have come to the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, under the spiritual fatherhood of HH Pope Shenouda III want to attack the Coptic Orthodox Church. Rather we seek to protect and promote it. But it is Orthodoxy that makes us Christians. Not our national heritage, be it Egyptian or otherwise.
Conspiracy theories, as much fun as they may be in a James-Bond movie, have no usual place in real life. In this case, I think, it obviously has not. Suggesting such things is likely to increase frictions and division rather than loving dialogue. Participating in loving dialogue keeps the devil out, hurling accusations of conspiracy theories (or something in that vain) brings the devil in.
It is my hope and prayer we can continue this in peace, love and respect so that we may not quench the Holy Spirit and drive Him out of our dialogue. I hope you will pray with me, so that in one Spirit we may be united as we are united in one Body, the Coptic Orthodox Church of Christ.
IC XC
Grigorii
peace
I just have one question, any one please answer:
Why are people registering in this website just the last couple of days including today to only participate in this thread?
I have a clue , in order to attack our beloved COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH.
So please, be careful of those who pretend to care about our children and they have only one agenda.
I think your clue is a little off... I have been a member of Tasbeha.org for over a year and I have been reading the forums during that time. Now I find something that is of interest to me so I respond...
There is no conspiricy<sp?> to attack our church... only healthy debate as is our right to do.
Please dont talk as if you know what is in the mind of others. I wonder what your agenda might be?
Mark Sefein
In Africa they speak, pray and sing in African... in our Coptic Church. They have different tunes in their local language. They have achieved it and its wonderfull to listen to. Why is it such a struggle for us?
Mark
Thank you for responding the way you did. This gives dialogue hope and strength!
To divide or unite is not in my power, to repent of my sins and to share Christ with those in need of Him, that they may find life in Christ in the Coptic Orthodox Church is. Such is Christ's great commission.
I wonder what Coptic means to you in relation to Orthodox? This might help me understand you better.
IC XC
Grigorii
ps(forgive me if i have said anything which offends anyone)
Yours in christ
Justin