I wonder what Coptic means to you in relation to Orthodox? This might help me understand you better.
It means a great deal to me:
1- The Church of Egypt is the only one among the churches of the nations on which a prophecy has been given in the Old Testament concerning her foundation.
2- The Holy Family’s Visit to Egypt
3- The First Theological Schools Established
4- The Coptic Church, The Mother of Monasticism
5- The early Heroes of Faith, St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St.. Cyril The Pillar of Faith, St. Timothy of Alexandria
6- The Church of Martyrs, which continue up to this moment,
And more and more, I am glad that the dialogue shifted to talk about the Glorious Coptic Church.
I do not understand why people want to leave all that beauty behind them, unless they want to destroy the Coptic Church.
My dear friends, the enemies of the Coptic Church tried through out all ages to do such that and they failed and the Church remained stronger and stronger. In Egypt now the protestant are furiously attacking the Church and they will fail because God promised that the gates of hell will not overcomes Her.
why do we have to pick? cant we compromise? i think that the coptic language is very hard to learn; i am trying (im egyptian) and it is hard, so i wouldnt blame an australian if they didnt get it. i say as long as the liturgy is the same, the hyms are the same, the doctrine is the same, the rubric is the same, just in a different language, i dont see a problem.
like somebody said before, the holy spirit allowed the disiples to speak in tongues so that all persons could understand... i dont see the difference today
so, put short and simple, keep the hymns the same (these i think you shouldn't change) the faith the same, and everyone is happy :)
I understand that. But I did not really mean to ask for a value judgment. Rather I would like to know if Coptic and Orthodox mean different things to you. So that one can be Orthodox while not being Coptic, or that one can be a Copt but not Orthodox. How do these two concepts relate to you?
1- The Church of Egypt is the only one among the churches of the nations on which a prophecy has been given in the Old Testament concerning her foundation.
I would disagree with that. The prophecies for establishing the Church in Israel, Jerusalem, are much more frequent. The Church was "born" there at the first Pentecost! Unless by "nations" you mean the non-Jews, in that case, yes, the Church of Egypt enjoys prophetic uniqueness.
2- The Holy Family’s Visit to Egypt
3- The First Theological Schools Established
4- The Coptic Church, The Mother of Monasticism
5- The early Heroes of Faith, St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St.. Cyril The Pillar of Faith, St. Timothy of Alexandria
6- The Church of Martyrs, which continue up to this moment,
And more and more, I am glad that the dialogue shifted to talk about the Glorious Coptic Church.
The grace given to the Coptic Church is great indeed. But equally great would be its fall if its members should become proud of it like the Jews were proud of their being "sons of Abraham" and thereby annulled the grace given to them. The grace given to the Coptic Church does not make it better than say, the Syrian Church, or the Ethiopian Church. It makes it unique and different, but so are the others. Together we constitute the One Orthodox Church of Christ. We must not allow pride to sin against our equals in Christ.
I do not understand why people want to leave all that beauty behind them, unless they want to destroy the Coptic Church.
Nobody wants to leave this grace behind, I don't think. What some of us have argued for is that this grace be made available more widely by establishing a daughter-Church, the AOC that would make available the grace given to the Church to non-Egyptians.
Nobody is saved by becoming Egyptian, we are saved by becoming Orthodox. Nobody is saved by becoming Coptic, but we are saved by becoming Christians. It is not the adherence to one or another cultural heritage (no matter how great or influential) that reconciles us to God, but only faith in Christ and the Mysteries of the Church. The cultural inheritance is a medium in which the Church "incarnates" this makes a particular Church unique, and bestows upon this Church unique blessings to be benefit the whole. But this is true of the Tewahedo Church, the Syrian Church, the Armenian Church (much of St. Timothy is extant only in Armenian for example) too.
Each culture is open to the "incarnation" of the Church in its life. And to this we are called as Christians. So that God may add those that are being saved to the Body of Christ. The AOC is one such means. But a very important one. It is direct obedience to the Great Commission of our Lord. To refuse this is to disobey the Lord in an equally direct manner. Instead of lamenting the "loss" of copticness the Coptic Church could rejoice in having children springing from its fruitful womb. Instead of being a museum to keep alive an antique past, it proves to be the "cradle of life." This does not mean giving up our heritage, but to inculturate it in obedience to Christ our Lord.
My dear friends, the enemies of the Coptic Church tried through out all ages to do such that and they failed and the Church remained stronger and stronger. In Egypt now the protestant are furiously attacking the Church and they will fail because God promised that the gates of hell will not overcomes Her.
The promise concerning the gates of hell are given to the Church as a whole, and only in so far as she is the Body of Christ. National heritage is not a determining factor in this promise. However, the things you listed above, biblical prophecies, the first theological school, origin of monasticism, great saints and theologians, an abundance of holy martyrs, are not determined by their nationality, but by their faithfulness to Christ. They do not find their essence in being Egyptian or Coptic, but in being Christian in being rooted in Jesus Christ.
To maintain a heritage is perfectly fine. To have great and firy love for it is also fine and even necessary. But to elevate a heritage above Christ is idolatry. Unless we take great care to avoid this in our love for our coptic-ness (and I am studying Coptic language as well as history for my love of it) we will, sooner or later, fall very deeply. This should be clear from the fact that the Jews in NT times elevated their national heritage (sons of Abraham) above God Incarnate telling them that the nations were to share in God's grace. Let our love for our coptic-ness be Christ-centered, let it be Christocentric and not culture/nationality-centered.
Copts in Egypt Pray In Arabic? Does this mean that they are not as good christians as some who pray in Coptic?
The Silver Smiths at Ephesus had a demonestration for a full day and a huge revolt. They were worried about their prestige and their trade.
As they had no logic they turned to beating people and rudeness.
It is suggested that praying in English or In Arabic will convey Christ and the Sacrament to the people.
I am suspecting that some choire members delight in the fact that they sing alone and stop the poor congregation (even in the Arabic Church) from praising God.
Please do not be like the silver smiths of the Goddes Diana (ARTAMEES)
So that no one is misrepresented I found the points that were discussed on the Australian Site and will put them here for all to see. Please read carefully and I quote,
BEGINNING "(1) Use present liturgies but all in English (2) For time during communion, introduce western, but churchy type music with Orthodox meaning and dogma. (3) Select a priest who served the Coptic Church as priest for minimum of 10 years, but with previous orthodox vision for another 10 years as a deacon or a SS servant and make this priest the first parish priest. (4) Establish a new campus on Sunday with a separate committee under the chairmanship of the bishop, with the parish priest as his deputy. (5) The priest must start to nurture some families to have priests and monks..etc out of them (6) This parish would be run by its congregation. They must be financially capable , through paying tith, to support a priest and hire of a place. Then eventually purchase a place. (7) This Parish must run on Sundays. With Sunday school and other services like Bible Studies..etc. (8) Coptic and Greek lessons must be conducted for interested persons, so translation of remaining books take place at the hand of linguists. (9) Protocol must be written and signed to avoid this parish in splintering out of deviating from the faith. (10) The priest must run proper Asheyas and proper Tasbeha for his people in appropriate times. (11) Congregation may start to rewrite the music for some of the liturgical songs in tunes to suit the reverence of the Church and the musical taste and ear of the Australian born parishioners. Such tunes to be gradually introduced. (12) Egyptian born Copts must refrain from migrating to such parish, as they are very well served by the existing 14 parishes. (13) Most importantly, unless Australian born committee contacts the bishop and negotiates with HG with a clear plan, such parish will never see the light. (14) Australian Copt must respect Egyptian Copts and their ethnic tinges. Egyptian Copts must also respect Australian Copts and their ethnic tinges. However biblical matters and traditional matters of the FAITH (e.g. the 10 Commandments are not to be considered or treated as an ethnic tradition). (15) The Parish must be involved in all the diocesan activities and must not be isolated. This does not stop them from having their own unique activities. (16) I am hoping that I am not given the crown of martyrdom, before my time comes.(As a result of this short essay)" END
As far as I can see there is no destruction of the existing churches, the history Coptic or the Dogma.
Storm in a teacup! Lets set up this Church like we have in so many other counties and LETS GET ON WITH IT!!!!!!
Ross, you said it. If changing the language means it will bring more people to god... than what are we waiting for??? If everything is staying the same except a language... I see no problem
Allright, wow. I just finished reading all 5 pages and most of the links and I have my part to say now. Why are we Coptic Orthodox, I myself was born into it, many have converted to it, many have remained in it... why? Their are probably millions of answers but what I believe is that our Church's mysticism is what draws us and keeps us. As Herodotus said ""The Egyptians are religious to excess, far beyond any other race of men." This is true and that is why are hymns are as they are, personally I believe that our hymns are the voice of the soul praising God. However, I most likely think this way because I was born into it.
I agree culture should not play a role, culture is simply culture, however, it is an entirely different story when it comes to tradition. Tradition is sacred and cannot be disposed of... why? Because it was handed down from generation to generation starting from the very first, the beholders of Christ himself, the apostles. So therefore you can't just throw it away because tradition is Orthodoxy, straight from the apostles who received it straight from Christ. I.E. Take St. Peter for example, before Jesus' Holy Resurection he was weak (the three denials of the Lord) however after the Holy 40 days he was strong and on babtized thousands. What Jesus gave to his disciples during those Holy 40 Days, I believe is the Orthodox Church's tradition. Coptic is not essential for salvation but as said by our teacher the great St. Paul "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up."- 1 Corinthians 10:23. I can use this two ways, 1) I can say the reason Coptic has survived until today, despite being a dead language is that it works. Through our amazingly long and spiritual hymns we eliminate satan from our minds and our hearts and praise God. "And he said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'" -Matthew 22:37
However, I can take the same verse and say:
2) It is true that the Coptic language is beautiful, spiritual, and amazing language, but for non-Egyptians, it can become a major hinderance in their spiritual growth, the same spiritual growth that the Ancient Egyptians found to be unlimited in Christianity which is the reason they rejoiced in it and accepted it. What is more important... the salvation of hundreds of people or their acceptance of the coptic language. Many points about this have already been made in many previous posts so I wont repeat them.
Concerning an Australian Orthodox Church (AOC) BE CAREFUL. "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves." - Matthew 10:16 The sixteen points are good but they're not perfect yet. I.E. Point 1 "Use present liturgies but all in English." Present liturgies must be used as stated because of tradition, for example the Liturgy of St. Cyril is that of St. Mark himself, one of the seventy apostles. However, I don't think Coptic should be eliminated 100%, keep the very basics as a reminder, i.e. the Eshlil, Epi Prosephke Stasite, Erini Pasi, Keto Nevmatiso... just as a reminder of your mother church the Coptic Orthodox Church, the AOC being its daughter. If everything is to be said in English than I personally suggest the AOC get/make much better translation straight from Coptic to English, not like some translations where it seems like it's from Coptic to Arabic and then to English which is not the best way to do things. This is very important because the words are very important, more important than we know. Always remeber that the COC is your loving mother, not your restricting enemy, the devil is cunning so don't give him any opportunity to sneak into your hearts and heads convincing you to change something that shouldn't be changed. Tradition remains. (That's about all I can write right now because I've got to go.) I'll pray for this situation and for all the people involved. May God's will be done. +
hii again guys im sorry if i was really silly to put my last post on this topic on. To tell you the truth i am a convert myself. The diocese of sydney have constructed "Coptic" churches in thailand, singapore, japan they are working on hong kong, indonesia and the philippines now these churches are not being called the japanese orthodox church or the thai orthodox church. even thought the languages may have been changed to the countrys language . so i would like to support the fact that we should keep the coptic heritage .
i would love to hear some feedback. Yours In CHrist Justin (God Bless)
Always remeber that the COC is your loving mother, not your restricting enemy, the devil is cunning so don't give him any opportunity to sneak into your hearts and heads convincing you to change something that shouldn't be changed.
Hello Luke90,
Excellent words
When the baby is connecting to his mother through the umbilical cord he takes nourishment and stays alive and at the same time he can proves that he is a legitimate son.
This is a metaphor to our relation to the Coptic Church, if our connection to the Coptic Church is severed we will lose our spiritual life.
I've been reading hard and researching hard, readin the Aussie forums, all quite interesting things have been brought up..... And I understadn where you come from, but I also came across these two things from HG Bishop Youssef, which he wrote in an email to someone who posted them on the Aussie Forums....
"The Coptic language is part of our identity and reflects who we are. Historically, our fathers shed their blood for the faith and also for the language. They were killed and their tongues were cut off because they spoke Coptic. Keeping and preserving the Coptic language reflects our faithfulness to our fathers the martyrs and our mother the Church. Usually those who oppose the Coptic language do so because of their lack of knowledge of the language for they missed the opportunity of learning it as they were growing up. Instead of keeping arguing with those who have their mind set against the Coptic language we should educate our people about the importance of our heritage. We should start teaching the Coptic language in our churches especially to the little children and consequently we will not have this problem with the future generation. "
and...
"I think we may benefit from the experience of the Coptic British Parish under H.E Metropolitan Seraphim, the Coptic French Parish under H.E. Metropolitan Marcus and H.G. Bishop Athanasius, and the Coptic Missions in Africa under H.G. Bishop Antonios Marcus and H.G. Bishop Paulos. There is a great understanding from the Holy Synod how to make these converts comfortable in their worship for example drums are used in Africa during worship, H.E. Metroplitan Seraphim and his parish celebrate Christmas on December 25 and not January 7, all of these parishes pray in their native language.
We may learn from the Evangelism in the early church. Which language do you think St. Mark promoted as a language of worship when he evangelized Egypt, the Hebrew language or the Coptic language?
Having said this, I MUST say that ALL the Coptic Churches inside and outside Egypt must keep and promote our Coptic language, traditions, hymns, music, iconography…etc. "
Thank you jono for psting H.G. BHG Bishop Youssef which he wrote in an email to the Aussie Forum.
This must silent some people and all who love the Coptic Church should pray that the Holy Spirit may guide H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Holy Synod to have the right decision regarding this issue.
Safaa, don't get too excitied, when these quotes were posted on the Sydney forums, after reading on, I found that those not wanting Coptic ignored them completley, and claimed that it was out of context and many people disregarded it.
[quote author=Safaa link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=75#msg29935 date=1120182613] Thank you jono for psting H.G. BHG Bishop Youssef which he wrote in an email to the Aussie Forum.
This must silent some people and all who love the Coptic Church should pray that the Holy Spirit may guide H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Holy Synod to have the right decision regarding this issue.
NO ONE said they hate the Coptic church... it sounds like you are saying they don’t like the Coptic church... please lets not get too hasty on judging others... the Idea is well appealing to me... as they said they will not change anything EXCEPT the language... NOTHING WRONG IN THAT... now changing the tune... and the wording of the liturgy... then I would rethink it... but if it's the language... WHY NOT.... the Coptic language... I know it... of course not fluently... I love it... but if I was born here... of white origin then I wouldn’t like it... and should SPEAK in the language you understand... we are not parrots, we just repeat what we hear... pray in the Language you Understand... if its Arabic, pray in a Arabic... if its Coptic... pray in Coptic... if its English then pray in English... why did the Lord give the disciples tongues of fire... to only speak Coptic... then Christ would've made the whole world speak in Coptic... this is ridiculous... pray to God in the language that most pleases you!
I am from Sydney, of HG Bishop Daniel's Diocese.... these quotes and arguements were posted on the Sydney forums, and I just thought to bring some more background from there onto here, so all can get a clearer picture.
I have just felt that there is no "For-Coptic" precense in this discussion and thought to address what the full opposite arguement is.....
After all, who wants a one sided emotional and political debate? I am just giving you guys the other side of the story....
there is another point; most of the masses that we have now are not 100% coptic either... they are only like 10% as someone said before... and if all they want to change is the language... than I think there is nothing to argue about... my opinion
[quote author=jono link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=75#msg29977 date=1120195615] I have just felt that there is no "For-Coptic" precense in this discussion and thought to adress what the full opposite arguement is.....
Sounds to me like an opinion!
Once again, This is not a "DESTROY COPTIC" discussion. Most of us are all Coptic Orthodox here and understand what may be at stake. We are all "For-Coptic" regardless of our opinions. Do not make it an "US or THEM" argument. This is childish and demeaning. I will say again, [glow=red,2,300]NO ONE HAS YET SAID THEY WANT TO DESTROY THE COPTIC OR THE COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH[/glow].
Not even the 16 points that are being discussed say anything to this effect.
Always remeber that the COC is your loving mother, not your restricting enemy, the devil is cunning so don't give him any opportunity to sneak into your hearts and heads convincing you to change something that shouldn't be changed.
Hello Luke90,
Excellent words
When the baby is connecting to his mother through the umbilical cord he takes nourishment and stays alive and at the same time he can proves that he is a legitimate son.
This is a metaphor to our relation to the Coptic Church, if our connection to the Coptic Church is severed we will lose our spiritual life.
DEAR SAFFA
Who ever said that their is any severence of relationship with the mother church.
When I started to read the forum, I thought that some people wanted to leave the Church? But when ROSS posted the 16 points I saw a lot of sense in them? All what these people seem to want is to preserve their ethnic identity without losing the rich coptic christianity?
I wish to request someone to translate the 16 points to Arabic so SAFFA would grasp the issue.
[quote author=Onkh link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=0#msg28360 date=1118734853] hey copts, i know im not a usual poster in these forums but i would really like to get some outside input in this matter. Here in australia there are talks of making an Australian Orthodox church. In this church there are plans that it will be deigned to attract australians by changin the hymns and tunes of the church in order to attract the western ear. As is my understanding, the coptic church in africa is titled "african coptic orthodox church". they also use there own langauge and there own tunes which i agree with as they have a different langauge to arabic coptic or english. But what im confused about is that they want to change the tunes of the australian orthodox church????even though the whole mass is said in english on our normal sunday masses??? they other major problem is that if intermarrige between coptic orthodox and australian oprthodox occurs this will cause major problems in the children not knowing which mass to go to. so in a sense we run a major risk of losing our coptic heritage and the coptic langauge all toghther!!! Also there title of the church does not have the word coptic in it which means that they are not acknowledgeing that the coptic church is the mother church. this is the. issue i would like to see your perpestives and opinions and wither you agree or disagree. thanx ppl pray for me
Mr ONKH
Your first posting has proven to be a misleading adventure. I believed you. Then ROSS posted 16 points expressing what these people mean?
When I read your claims I thought that people want to splinter and leave the Church.
When I read the 16 points I thought that these people are level headed and are wise. They seem to be thinking ahead of their time.
Look at the Coptic Church in Egypt? What language do they use?
Compare Efrahy Ya Maryam with Onof Owo Maria, you would notice that the Arabic lahn takes twice the time of the Coptic One? So the native Egyptians seem to change the tune to adapt to their language?
Allelulia Fai Bebe sung in Coptic to slightly different "tunes and musical stops" from the Arabic?
Onkh means life? So why are you trying to kill debate? And why should the Coptic Church, which is very progressive in the US and Canada should be stifled from progressing in Australia?
Please examine your methods? It would of been wiser and fairer if you posted the 16 points up front?
[quote author=Justin_sydney link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=75#msg29900 date=1120172337] hii again guys im sorry if i was really silly to put my last post on this topic on. To tell you the truth i am a convert myself. The diocese of sydney have constructed "Coptic" churches in thailand, singapore, japan they are working on hong kong, indonesia and the philippines now these churches are not being called the japanese orthodox church or the thai orthodox church. even thought the languages may have been changed to the countrys language . so i would like to support the fact that we should keep the coptic heritage .
i would love to hear some feedback.
I have a simple question? Did you ever bother to speak to the author/s of the 16 points? Did you ever suggested to any of them that the name must be "Coptic Orthodox Church, Australia" or something to this ilk?
Or are these people an underground movement, you are attempting to chase here in the US?
Dialogue is always good and healthy? Yours In CHrist Justin (God Bless)
There was actually a list of points created by those behind this AOC, and it was quite shocking to read at first, but it's safe to know now that HG Bishop Daniel is in Egypt and has put the issue forth to the Holy Synod, and we await the final decision (HG returns to Syd on the 29th June) on such an issue from those who have the final say, guided by the Holy Spirit.
It is bit disconcerning to learn that the Holy Synod matters are placed unsoliceted on the WEB site? How could we in Americal believe or disbelieve?
(1) Is the writer the secretary of HG bishop Daniel? (2) Has bishop Daniel or the Holy Synod issued any comunique about this.
The Holy Synod is our highst authority, and when quoted we must be absolutely sure.
The English Keraza so far did not mention any of this as decisions by the Holy Synod.
If you have insider infomation please show your hand? Or tell us that you are an official.
Please give us the official WEB site of HG bishop Daniel to read what is published in this forum with our own eyes?
[quote author=jono link=board=4;threadid=1880;start=90#msg30134 date=1120273032] About a critique of The Da Vinci Code - Deacon Timon (Amir Hanna) prepared something on it, which is attached.. (English and Arabic)
Hope this helps. T Thanks. Any sermons by any priests addressing same Davinci Code.
The reply is useful but brief. Could this deacon recrd something on it, or could any recorded material be posted to us in the US?
ok so weve heard everyones concerns and so forth i jus want to know who agrees that the australian orthodox church should be established and who disagrees. no arguments or conflicts. jus a simple yes i think it should be established or no, it should never be established thanx
Comments
1- The Church of Egypt is the only one among the churches of the nations on which a prophecy has been given in the Old Testament concerning her foundation.
2- The Holy Family’s Visit to Egypt
3- The First Theological Schools Established
4- The Coptic Church, The Mother of Monasticism
5- The early Heroes of Faith, St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St.. Cyril The Pillar of Faith, St. Timothy of Alexandria
6- The Church of Martyrs, which continue up to this moment,
And more and more, I am glad that the dialogue shifted to talk about the Glorious Coptic Church.
I do not understand why people want to leave all that beauty behind them, unless they want to destroy the Coptic Church.
My dear friends, the enemies of the Coptic Church tried through out all ages to do such that and they failed and the Church remained stronger and stronger. In Egypt now the protestant are furiously attacking the Church and they will fail because God promised that the gates of hell will not overcomes Her.
Peace of the Lord
like somebody said before, the holy spirit allowed the disiples to speak in tongues so that all persons could understand... i dont see the difference today
so, put short and simple, keep the hymns the same (these i think you shouldn't change) the faith the same, and everyone is happy :)
Nobody is saved by becoming Egyptian, we are saved by becoming Orthodox. Nobody is saved by becoming Coptic, but we are saved by becoming Christians. It is not the adherence to one or another cultural heritage (no matter how great or influential) that reconciles us to God, but only faith in Christ and the Mysteries of the Church. The cultural inheritance is a medium in which the Church "incarnates" this makes a particular Church unique, and bestows upon this Church unique blessings to be benefit the whole. But this is true of the Tewahedo Church, the Syrian Church, the Armenian Church (much of St. Timothy is extant only in Armenian for example) too.
Each culture is open to the "incarnation" of the Church in its life. And to this we are called as Christians. So that God may add those that are being saved to the Body of Christ. The AOC is one such means. But a very important one. It is direct obedience to the Great Commission of our Lord. To refuse this is to disobey the Lord in an equally direct manner. Instead of lamenting the "loss" of copticness the Coptic Church could rejoice in having children springing from its fruitful womb. Instead of being a museum to keep alive an antique past, it proves to be the "cradle of life." This does not mean giving up our heritage, but to inculturate it in obedience to Christ our Lord. The promise concerning the gates of hell are given to the Church as a whole, and only in so far as she is the Body of Christ. National heritage is not a determining factor in this promise. However, the things you listed above, biblical prophecies, the first theological school, origin of monasticism, great saints and theologians, an abundance of holy martyrs, are not determined by their nationality, but by their faithfulness to Christ. They do not find their essence in being Egyptian or Coptic, but in being Christian in being rooted in Jesus Christ.
To maintain a heritage is perfectly fine. To have great and firy love for it is also fine and even necessary. But to elevate a heritage above Christ is idolatry. Unless we take great care to avoid this in our love for our coptic-ness (and I am studying Coptic language as well as history for my love of it) we will, sooner or later, fall very deeply. This should be clear from the fact that the Jews in NT times elevated their national heritage (sons of Abraham) above God Incarnate telling them that the nations were to share in God's grace. Let our love for our coptic-ness be Christ-centered, let it be Christocentric and not culture/nationality-centered.
IC XC
Grigorii
Copts in Egypt Pray In Arabic? Does this mean that they are not as good christians as some who pray in Coptic?
The Silver Smiths at Ephesus had a demonestration for a full day and a huge revolt. They were worried about their prestige and their trade.
As they had no logic they turned to beating people and rudeness.
It is suggested that praying in English or In Arabic will convey Christ and the Sacrament to the people.
I am suspecting that some choire members delight in the fact that they sing alone and stop the poor congregation (even in the Arabic Church) from praising God.
Please do not be like the silver smiths of the Goddes Diana (ARTAMEES)
Disagree but in meekness and with logic.
BEGINNING
"(1) Use present liturgies but all in English
(2) For time during communion, introduce western, but churchy type music with Orthodox meaning and dogma.
(3) Select a priest who served the Coptic Church as priest for minimum of 10 years, but with previous orthodox vision for another 10 years as a deacon or a SS servant and make this priest the first parish priest.
(4) Establish a new campus on Sunday with a separate committee under the chairmanship of the bishop, with the parish priest as his deputy.
(5) The priest must start to nurture some families to have priests and monks..etc out of them
(6) This parish would be run by its congregation. They must be financially capable , through paying tith, to support a priest and hire of a place. Then eventually purchase a place.
(7) This Parish must run on Sundays. With Sunday school and other services like Bible Studies..etc.
(8) Coptic and Greek lessons must be conducted for interested persons, so translation of remaining books take place at the hand of linguists.
(9) Protocol must be written and signed to avoid this parish in splintering out of deviating from the faith.
(10) The priest must run proper Asheyas and proper Tasbeha for his people in appropriate times.
(11) Congregation may start to rewrite the music for some of the liturgical songs in tunes to suit the reverence of the Church and the musical taste and ear of the Australian born parishioners. Such tunes to be gradually introduced.
(12) Egyptian born Copts must refrain from migrating to such parish, as they are very well served by the existing 14 parishes.
(13) Most importantly, unless Australian born committee contacts the bishop and negotiates with HG with a clear plan, such parish will never see the light.
(14) Australian Copt must respect Egyptian Copts and their ethnic tinges. Egyptian Copts must also respect Australian Copts and their ethnic tinges. However biblical matters and traditional matters of the FAITH (e.g. the 10 Commandments are not to be considered or treated as an ethnic tradition).
(15) The Parish must be involved in all the diocesan activities and must not be isolated. This does not stop them from having their own unique activities.
(16) I am hoping that I am not given the crown of martyrdom, before my time comes.(As a result of this short essay)"
END
As far as I can see there is no destruction of the existing churches, the history Coptic or the Dogma.
Storm in a teacup! Lets set up this Church like we have in so many other counties and LETS GET ON WITH IT!!!!!!
God Bless
Elequently Put. Could not have said it better myself. ;)
Keep up the interesting dialogue.
God Bless
Ross
I am uneasy about "point 11". But the Arabic translated Alhan lost some of the original Hazzas.
I dont know if Amonoganis or Pekithronos could fall under any translation? Any way these are songs said once a year?
The remainder of the points show a full intention of staying under the BISHOP. Also the Priest must be Coptic through and through.
The idea of not tolerating any change in Dogma (e.g. the 10 Commandment) seems excellent.
Were these points posted on any Church Site? Which one and under what heading?
I agree culture should not play a role, culture is simply culture, however, it is an entirely different story when it comes to tradition. Tradition is sacred and cannot be disposed of... why? Because it was handed down from generation to generation starting from the very first, the beholders of Christ himself, the apostles. So therefore you can't just throw it away because tradition is Orthodoxy, straight from the apostles who received it straight from Christ. I.E. Take St. Peter for example, before Jesus' Holy Resurection he was weak (the three denials of the Lord) however after the Holy 40 days he was strong and on babtized thousands. What Jesus gave to his disciples during those Holy 40 Days, I believe is the Orthodox Church's tradition. Coptic is not essential for salvation but as said by our teacher the great St. Paul "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up."- 1 Corinthians 10:23. I can use this two ways,
1) I can say the reason Coptic has survived until today, despite being a dead language is that it works. Through our amazingly long and spiritual hymns we eliminate satan from our minds and our hearts and praise God. "And he said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'" -Matthew 22:37
However, I can take the same verse and say:
2) It is true that the Coptic language is beautiful, spiritual, and amazing language, but for non-Egyptians, it can become a major hinderance in their spiritual growth, the same spiritual growth that the Ancient Egyptians found to be unlimited in Christianity which is the reason they rejoiced in it and accepted it. What is more important... the salvation of hundreds of people or their acceptance of the coptic language. Many points about this have already been made in many previous posts so I wont repeat them.
Concerning an Australian Orthodox Church (AOC) BE CAREFUL. "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves." - Matthew 10:16
The sixteen points are good but they're not perfect yet. I.E. Point 1 "Use present liturgies but all in English." Present liturgies must be used as stated because of tradition, for example the Liturgy of St. Cyril is that of St. Mark himself, one of the seventy apostles. However, I don't think Coptic should be eliminated 100%, keep the very basics as a reminder, i.e. the Eshlil, Epi Prosephke Stasite, Erini Pasi, Keto Nevmatiso... just as a reminder of your mother church the Coptic Orthodox Church, the AOC being its daughter. If everything is to be said in English than I personally suggest the AOC get/make much better translation straight from Coptic to English, not like some translations where it seems like it's from Coptic to Arabic and then to English which is not the best way to do things. This is very important because the words are very important, more important than we know. Always remeber that the COC is your loving mother, not your restricting enemy, the devil is cunning so don't give him any opportunity to sneak into your hearts and heads convincing you to change something that shouldn't be changed. Tradition remains. (That's about all I can write right now because I've got to go.) I'll pray for this situation and for all the people involved. May God's will be done. +
i would love to hear some feedback.
Yours In CHrist
Justin
(God Bless)
Excellent words
When the baby is connecting to his mother through the umbilical cord he takes nourishment and stays alive and at the same time he can proves that he is a legitimate son.
This is a metaphor to our relation to the Coptic Church, if our connection to the Coptic Church is severed we will lose our spiritual life.
I've been reading hard and researching hard, readin the Aussie forums, all quite interesting things have been brought up..... And I understadn where you come from, but I also came across these two things from HG Bishop Youssef, which he wrote in an email to someone who posted them on the Aussie Forums....
"The Coptic language is part of our identity and reflects who we are. Historically, our fathers shed their blood for the faith and also for the language. They were killed and their tongues were cut off because they spoke Coptic. Keeping and preserving the Coptic language reflects our faithfulness to our fathers the martyrs and our mother the Church. Usually those who oppose the Coptic language do so because of their lack of knowledge of the language for they missed the opportunity of learning it as they were growing up. Instead of keeping arguing with those who have their mind set against the Coptic language we should educate our people about the importance of our heritage. We should start teaching the Coptic language in our churches especially to the little children and consequently we will not have this problem with the future generation. "
and...
"I think we may benefit from the experience of the Coptic British Parish under H.E Metropolitan Seraphim, the Coptic French Parish under H.E. Metropolitan Marcus and H.G. Bishop Athanasius, and the Coptic Missions in Africa under H.G. Bishop Antonios Marcus and H.G. Bishop Paulos. There is a great understanding from the Holy Synod how to make these converts comfortable in their worship for example drums are used in Africa during worship, H.E. Metroplitan Seraphim and his parish celebrate Christmas on December 25 and not January 7, all of these parishes pray in their native language.
We may learn from the Evangelism in the early church. Which language do you think St. Mark promoted as a language of worship when he evangelized Egypt, the Hebrew language or the Coptic language?
Having said this, I MUST say that ALL the Coptic Churches inside and outside Egypt must keep and promote our Coptic language, traditions, hymns, music, iconography…etc. "
Peace Out.
This must silent some people and all who love the Coptic Church should pray that the Holy Spirit may guide H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Holy Synod to have the right decision regarding this issue.
Thank you jono for psting H.G. BHG Bishop Youssef which he wrote in an email to the Aussie Forum.
This must silent some people and all who love the Coptic Church should pray that the Holy Spirit may guide H.H. Pope Shenouda and the Holy Synod to have the right decision regarding this issue.
NO ONE said they hate the Coptic church... it sounds like you are saying they don’t like the Coptic church... please lets not get too hasty on judging others... the Idea is well appealing to me... as they said they will not change anything EXCEPT the language... NOTHING WRONG IN THAT... now changing the tune... and the wording of the liturgy... then I would rethink it... but if it's the language... WHY NOT.... the Coptic language... I know it... of course not fluently... I love it... but if I was born here... of white origin then I wouldn’t like it... and should SPEAK in the language you understand... we are not parrots, we just repeat what we hear... pray in the Language you Understand... if its Arabic, pray in a Arabic... if its Coptic... pray in Coptic... if its English then pray in English... why did the Lord give the disciples tongues of fire... to only speak Coptic... then Christ would've made the whole world speak in Coptic... this is ridiculous... pray to God in the language that most pleases you!
Are you from the parish of Bishop Yousef?
And if so why are you interfering with another Bishops Diocese.
It is true as you say. There is a Bishop in Sydney Let him deal with the issue.
Stop quoting other Bishops from Other Diocese!!!!
And stop scaremongering and misrepresenting the issue!
As it has been said many times before. NO ONE IS DESTRYONG THE COPTIC!!!!!
Read before you write
Ross
I have just felt that there is no "For-Coptic" precense in this discussion and thought to address what the full opposite arguement is.....
After all, who wants a one sided emotional and political debate? I am just giving you guys the other side of the story....
I have just felt that there is no "For-Coptic" precense in this discussion and thought to adress what the full opposite arguement is.....
Sounds to me like an opinion!
Once again, This is not a "DESTROY COPTIC" discussion. Most of us are all Coptic Orthodox here and understand what may be at stake. We are all "For-Coptic" regardless of our opinions. Do not make it an "US or THEM" argument. This is childish and demeaning.
I will say again, [glow=red,2,300]NO ONE HAS YET SAID THEY WANT TO DESTROY THE COPTIC OR THE COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH[/glow].
Not even the 16 points that are being discussed say anything to this effect.
God Bless
Excellent words
When the baby is connecting to his mother through the umbilical cord he takes nourishment and stays alive and at the same time he can proves that he is a legitimate son.
This is a metaphor to our relation to the Coptic Church, if our connection to the Coptic Church is severed we will lose our spiritual life.
DEAR SAFFA
Who ever said that their is any severence of relationship with the mother church.
When I started to read the forum, I thought that some people wanted to leave the Church? But when ROSS posted the 16 points I saw a lot of sense in them? All what these people seem to want is to preserve their ethnic identity without losing the rich coptic christianity?
I wish to request someone to translate the 16 points to Arabic so SAFFA would grasp the issue.
Greetings
hey copts,
i know im not a usual poster in these forums but i would really like to get some outside input in this matter.
Here in australia there are talks of making an Australian Orthodox church. In this church there are plans that it will be deigned to attract australians by changin the hymns and tunes of the church in order to attract the western ear. As is my understanding, the coptic church in africa is titled "african coptic orthodox church". they also use there own langauge and there own tunes which i agree with as they have a different langauge to arabic coptic or english. But what im confused about is that they want to change the tunes of the australian orthodox church????even though the whole mass is said in english on our normal sunday masses???
they other major problem is that if intermarrige between coptic orthodox and australian oprthodox occurs this will cause major problems in the children not knowing which mass to go to. so in a sense we run a major risk of losing our coptic heritage and the coptic langauge all toghther!!! Also there title of the church does not have the word coptic in it which means that they are not acknowledgeing that the coptic church is the mother church.
this is the. issue i would like to see your perpestives and opinions and wither you agree or disagree.
thanx ppl
pray for me
Mr ONKH
Your first posting has proven to be a misleading adventure. I believed you. Then ROSS posted 16 points expressing what these people mean?
When I read your claims I thought that people want to splinter and leave the Church.
When I read the 16 points I thought that these people are level headed and are wise. They seem to be thinking ahead of their time.
Look at the Coptic Church in Egypt? What language do they use?
Compare Efrahy Ya Maryam with Onof Owo Maria, you would notice that the Arabic lahn takes twice the time of the Coptic One? So the native Egyptians seem to change the tune to adapt to their language?
Allelulia Fai Bebe sung in Coptic to slightly different "tunes and musical stops" from the Arabic?
Onkh means life? So why are you trying to kill debate? And why should the Coptic Church, which is very progressive in the US and Canada should be stifled from progressing in Australia?
Please examine your methods? It would of been wiser and fairer if you posted the 16 points up front?
hii again guys im sorry if i was really silly to put my last post on this topic on. To tell you the truth i am a convert myself. The diocese of sydney have constructed "Coptic" churches in thailand, singapore, japan they are working on hong kong, indonesia and the philippines now these churches are not being called the japanese orthodox church or the thai orthodox church. even thought the languages may have been changed to the countrys language . so i would like to support the fact that we should keep the coptic heritage .
i would love to hear some feedback.
I have a simple question? Did you ever bother to speak to the author/s of the 16 points? Did you ever suggested to any of them that the name must be "Coptic Orthodox Church, Australia" or something to this ilk?
Or are these people an underground movement, you are attempting to chase here in the US?
Dialogue is always good and healthy?
Yours In CHrist
Justin
(God Bless)
This is unbecoming from both of you , as St. Paul said concerning Christian Love:
“ Dose not act unbecomingly; it dose not seek its own, is not provoked, dose not take into account a wrong suffered.” 1 Cor 13:5
True Copts do not speak such thing about their fellow Christians, May God forgive all of us and from myself I am sorry if I offended any person.
“ And indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” 1 Timothy3:12
Has any one from the faculty of this college prepared any replies to the misleading Davinci Code?
If so could one of the Australian Copts please advise and also post electronic copies?
It would be a reat help if it is in English , Please
There was actually a list of points created by those behind this AOC, and it was quite shocking to read at first, but it's safe to know now that HG Bishop Daniel is in Egypt and has put the issue forth to the Holy Synod, and we await the final decision (HG returns to Syd on the 29th June) on such an issue from those who have the final say, guided by the Holy Spirit.
It is bit disconcerning to learn that the Holy Synod matters are placed unsoliceted on the WEB site? How could we in Americal believe or disbelieve?
(1) Is the writer the secretary of HG bishop Daniel?
(2) Has bishop Daniel or the Holy Synod issued any comunique about this.
The Holy Synod is our highst authority, and when quoted we must be absolutely sure.
The English Keraza so far did not mention any of this as decisions by the Holy Synod.
If you have insider infomation please show your hand? Or tell us that you are an official.
Please give us the official WEB site of HG bishop Daniel to read what is published in this forum with our own eyes?
Hope this helps.
About a critique of The Da Vinci Code - Deacon Timon (Amir Hanna) prepared something on it, which is attached.. (English and Arabic)
Hope this helps.
T
Thanks. Any sermons by any priests addressing same Davinci Code.
The reply is useful but brief. Could this deacon recrd something on it, or could any recorded material be posted to us in the US?
Much appreciated.
i jus want to know who agrees that the australian orthodox church should be established and who disagrees.
no arguments or conflicts.
jus a simple yes i think it should be established or no, it should never be established
thanx
hope 2 hear ur thoughts