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Mary's virginity

G.J.IG.J.I
edited April 2004 in Faith Issues
this question is very serious, so plz help me out
pray that god will guide u to gude me b4 answering this this 1

in matt 1:25
"and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son, and called his name Jesus"

is this impling 'did not know her till she had...' that joseph broke her virgnity after Jesus was born, or does "know" in this context mean got to kow her.
and also using the word First born sorta implies that there were others...

in matt 13:55
"is this not the carpenters son? is his mother not called Mary? and his brothers james, joses, simon and judas?"

is this telling us that mary conceived again making them Jesus have half brothers, as joesph would have been the father, not God... or is it posible that they were refering to his Cousins, because i heard that back then they use to call wat we know as Cousins, "Brothers"...
maybe this were the children of mary the sister of st mary...

in matt 27:56
"among them were mary magdelene, Mry the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of zebedee's sons"

can some1 plz make this clear to me

Princess Mary, Minrew, Kawfaw anybody
cause it truley is making me feel uneasy.

i pray that God guides u well to guide me, cause i need some serious guiding
George :'(
i do not doubt Mary is a virgn, the ever virgn as we say in the intro of the creed, in tamgeed, and tasbeha.

Comments

  • Mark423Mark423
    Excellent question! I asked the same question to bishop david when he visited my church a short while back and he answered “The VIRGIN Mary was a virgin before, during, and after…” so, she was always a virgin. As for what the verse is implying, I’m not exactly sure. I don’t know what it means to “know” her. But her certainly did not have any retaliations of that nature with her.
  • Unknown
    I wish I could help, of course St. Mary is a virgin and she stayed that way for the rest of her life. I am not really sure what "Know her" means, but I am sure that St Mary has been is and will be a virgin (There is no doubt about that). Even in the tasbeha we say that her virginity is sealed. For the brothers, they mean Jesus cousins, like you said they use to call their cousins,brothers. I wish I could helped, but you would probably should ask an Abouna about that. I know I didn't help, but I wish that God help you find an answer for it.
    Pray for me,
    Marianne
  • Mark423Mark423
    My apologies, in the last sentence I meant to write “but he* certainly didn’t have any retaliations of that nature with her.” He referring to Joseph.
  • G.J.IG.J.I
    thnx for ur words u did help,
    i gess i never doubted her virginity, just the way it was written it the bible,
    i asked my confession father about matt 1:25
    he told me it could have been a translation error.
    but the question still remains about his brothers/cousins
  • Abanoub88Abanoub88
    Hey Mark423,
    You asked him when he came to the Long Island church right? I think I remember someone askin that. What you said is true, she was a virgin before and after Christ as no child is worthy enough to be carried in the same womb as the Son of God.
  • Mark423Mark423
    No sir, I asked him when he came to brooklyn. I suppose he says the same things regardless of the church hes in. :)
  • Abanoub88Abanoub88
    G.J.I.,
    Concerning a possible translation error, that is extremely slim. If the word in Aramaic was "cousin" it would have been translated thus as they are distinct words between "brother" and "cousin". I'm not doubting your Abouna, but concerning this topic, since it is really touchy, I would ask a bishop for the Church's exact views.
  • Abanoub88Abanoub88
    Mark423,
    Oh. I just seemed to recall that question being asked in a Youth Group that Amba David had held in the LI Church and people from all over the East coast had shown up. Yes, you're right, he does say the same thing, no matter which church. :)
  • G.J.IG.J.I
    my friend i wasnt talkin about the brother cousin thing, its a known fact that cousins used to be called brothers
    i was talkin about the "know her" part, as in it could hae bees put in to the wrong context, because in the bible to "know" someone, usually means, to u know, mate, but in this context that translation is a bit misunderstood...
    se wat im sayin, like it is easy to be misinterpreted.
    George
    thnx 4 ur reply

    (i think we need princess mary's help on this one)
  • G.J.IG.J.I
    thnx for ur help guys ;)
    still need more interpretation though...
  • karfawkarfaw
    Hi G.J.I,

    That's a good question. I will try to answer your question with what I believe.

    1) First of all, Mary gave birth to Jesus while she was still virgin we already agree on that from Mat 1:25.

    2) The only thing which is confusing is regarding after giving birth to Jesus. The reason of this confusion is because of the same verse which says "and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son, and called his name Jesus". As if Joseph knew Mary after she gave birth to Jesus. But this is not true. So why did the Gospel tell us the word "till" which is causing us to be confused? I think the answer is simple. Because he wants to concentrate on the fact that Jesus was born from Mary while she was still virgin to accomplish the Isaie prophecy which is referred in Mat 1:23. And this can be accomplished if Joseph did not know Mary until she gives birth to Jesus. But again, this does not mean at all that he knew her after that.

    3) Another thing we can deduce from the Gospel, Jesus on the Cross told John to take care of his Mother. Why? Simply because Mary had no other sons. If Mary had another son, Jesus would leave Her with her son instead of giving Her to John. Right?

    So, from all of the above, we can deduce that Mary had no other children except Jesus and she remained Virgin, before, during, and after the birth of Jesus.

    I hope I could clarify it a liitle bit.

    Pray for me.

    KF
  • PrincessMaryPrincessMary
    Try to read ST. MARY IN THE OTHODOX CONCEPT by Fr. Tadros Y. Malaty, here r some parts and pieces from it:

    -“1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. 2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.” Ezekiel 44:1-3

    -we say in the Sunday theotakia “Emmanuel, whom you had brought forth, preserved you in incorruption and your VIRGINITY IS SEALED”

    -“Only Christ opened the closed gates of her virginal womb, and yet the gates remained unfailingly closed”- St. Jerome-

    -“The womb of the holy virgin which ministered to an immaculate birth did not annul the virginity, nor did the virginity impede so great a birth”- St. Gregory of Nissa-
    -“Just as the Lord made His entrance when the doors were closed, in the same way He did come forth from the Virgin’s womb, because the virgin really and truly gave birth without pain, her virginity remained safe and sound” -St. Ephriam the Syrian-

    About Jesus’ “brothers”, during that time period the term brother only applied for : blood brotherhood, common nationality, close relatives, or friends, in this case it is close relatives. Abraham called his brother’s son, Lot, his brother (Gen 13:8), Laban called his son in law- “brother” (Gen 29:15). According to St. Jerome, the brothers of Jesus were probably the sons of St. Mary of Clopas, the wife of Alphaeus and the sister of the Virgin Mary (John 19:25)

    Also check out these websites:
    http://www.angelfire.com/al/stantoniouscoptic/stmary.html

    http://www.suscopts.org/message.php?subaction=showfull&id=1076555821&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&;

    To be honest, even though I myself bear St.Mary's blessed name, sometimes its so hard to understand all of this, some things God allows to happen that is beyond our understanding, how a women could give birth and still be a virgin, is a very difficult concept to understand, but all I can do is believe, some things just need u to open your heart, accept them out of faith and love, and believe in them, because no matter how hard u try to think about it and understand it..u never really will ;)

    pray for me
    mary
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier
    Hi all,

    This one has forced me to do a bit of research... the word for brother is adeljoi which actually includes part of a verb meaning from the womb. However this same word reoccurs in various verses that stipulate it has other usages and doesn't always mean an actual blood relation.

    An example of other verses of the bible that use the same word are:

    Phm 1:1
    ¶ Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother (adeljoi) unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellow laborer,

    Re 1:9
    ¶ I John, who also am your brother (adeljoi), and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    As far as the knowing thing goes you have to remember that Joseph was about 90 or some riddiculous age when he married Mary. The story of how he got engaged to her, if you don't know it is that she was an orphan living in the temple and someone had to marry her to look after her. The priests all put their staffs in a pile so that she would pick one and marry the person who owned the staff. A dove flew down from heaven and landed on Jospehs staff and they took it as a sign that he was to marry her. At that point they got engaged but the marriage was never completed for 2 reasons. Josephs obligation was to look after her, he wasn't interested in actually being with her and also it also was Mary's intention to remain a vrigin, even at that young age.

    St. Augustine said that we know that Mary never had the intention of getting married because of her response to the angel when she said that she does not know a man (andra ou ginwskw). The verb ou denotes an absolute negative as to say that it was not her intention to ever do this act.

    The fathers always affirmed that even though Matthew did say that she did not know a man until He was born that doesn't mean she had to have known a man afterward. You may then ask, why did they get married if the marriage wasn't to be consumated? Couldn't they have remained enagaed? This was not possible because the laws of the time dictate that Mary would have been stoned as an adulturer, that is why Joseph tried to put her out discretely but was consequently told to marry her.

    I hope that this helps...

    God bless you all,

    CS
  • petergergispetergergis
    Hi CS, I see where your coming from. The Virgin Mary, had to have stayed a virigin. First, in Matthew, Joseph did not know her, as a wife. You must remember that this was written in Aramaic. In that language, "To know, ment to live with and to be married". So this means, that Joseph became wed to Mary and lived with her. Also, back to the idea that she had to, Jesus was the "Second Arc of the Covenant", the new bridge to God. Hence, Mary's body became part of that holiness. For God to allow the body to become dephiled, would be to mean, that His son would not be pure. You must also remeber that in those days, they did not have birth control. Had Mary lost Her Virginity, she would have become pregnant. The bible has no account of the blessed virgin ever barring other childeren.

    [move]Move and be moved, for the power of Lord resised within the heart of those who give Him their love.[/move]
  • Abanoub88Abanoub88
    Nicely put Peter Gergis :)
  • G.J.IG.J.I
    thank u, u are all very blessd people in christ, u straightened out alot for me...
    thnx princess mary once agian, i actually just brought the book u told me about, its awsome, (St mary in the orthodox concept)
    and thanx again to all of u...
    pray for me the true sinner, and i pray that god guides u to guide me in the future..
    George
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier

    Hi CS, I see where your coming from. The Virgin Mary, had to have stayed a virigin. First, in Matthew, Joseph did not know her, as a wife. You must remember that this was written in Aramaic. In that language, "To know, ment to live with and to be married". So this means, that Joseph became wed to Mary and lived with her. Also, back to the idea that she had to, Jesus was the "Second Arc of the Covenant", the new bridge to God. Hence, Mary's body became part of that holiness. For God to allow the body to become dephiled, would be to mean, that His son would not be pure. You must also remeber that in those days, they did not have birth control. Had Mary lost Her Virginity, she would have become pregnant. The bible has no account of the blessed virgin ever barring other childeren.

    I'm having trouble guaging how you've interpreted my comments. It was st. Jerome that said married Joseph for a couple of reasons, the first was she required a father figure as she was very young and the needed to decieve people into thinking this was Josephs son so that they didn't kill Mary or the child. I was trying to give the impression that the relationship between them wasn't a conventional one where Joseph was a guide and a protector. I'm not sure if I still understand your concerns can you point it out a bit clearer if I don't seem to be following you?

    God bless you,

    CS
  • petergergispetergergis
    Thanks Banoub
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier
    PETER I COULD KISS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • MARIAM KMARIAM K
    HEy guys

    im new to this site but i think i can answer ur question on the "brothers" that have appeared numerous times in the BIble. This question was specifically asked to HG Bishop DAvid.. and this was his answer....

    First of all there are 2 possibilities to the explanation of Jesus's brothers .......HOWEVER St. Mary giving birth to other children is DEFIENETLY not one of them
    1) His Grace said that the brothers could be his cousins as mentioned before, b/c at that time that's what u were considered
    2) Before St. Joesph was engaged to ST. Mary, he was married before and had many children, one of them being St. James. THis would mean Jesus had some half brothers from St. Joesph and his early wife. all the brothers mentioned in the Bible came from st. joesph's previous marriage.

    However as repeated hundreds of times by HG...ST. Mary was a virgin before the birth, during the birth, after the birth and forevermore!!


    hopes that clears up all the confusion
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