about Immaculate conception : I'll give u an extract from a famous book of St.Cyril the Great of Alexandria who is considered a doctor of the roman catholic church : from Scholia on the incarnation of the Only-Begotten. LFC 47, Oxford (1881) pp.185-236. A library of fathers of the holy Catholic church: anterior to the division of the East and West, vol. 47 For if there were any whatever who should dare to say that this flesh made of earth had become mother of the bare Godhead, and that she bare out of her own self the Nature which is over the whole creation, the thing would be madness and nothing else: for not of earth has the Divine Nature been made, nor will that which is subject to decay (because the nature of the Virgin represents the decay nature of humanity) become the root of immortality nor that which is subject to death bear the Life of all things, nor yet the Unembodied be the fruit of the palpable body, that which is subject to birth [bear] that which is superior to birth, that which hath its beginning in time, that which is without beginning. Please , is Cyril a heretic ? or pope john paul who prayed with 500 000 indonesian muslim can understand this dogma more than him? at last , Catholicity of RCC is not important... the important is Orthodoxy of the teaching , and let's discuss later what did the fathers of Nicaea say about that dogma ... in Christ, Mina
dear moderatore , I first want to say : Aghapy and god blesses this forum, infact I did not notice that there is [1] [2] .., [5] pages ... I thought that the last page is [1] because I used to defend for Orthodox faith in forums in other sites which have different types of forums I recommend any orthodox to revise www.monachos.net it is really very deep and high level orthodox spiritual web site. sorry for any disturbance and please pray for me. in Christ , Dioscorus
[quote author=tu es Petrus link=topic=3026.msg45492#msg45492 date=1136924167] Hi everyone,
I am new here, and yes I am a Catholic. I have read some of your threads about Catholicism and have seen much inaccurate information bieng Spread about The Catholic church. But before I do that i would like to ask you a question:
I have heard many of you say that the Catholic church has become "protestantized"
how many of you Think this?
Before the church became protestantized what was your view of Her?
God Bless,
Sam
Hi Tu es Petrus,
Yes, I was the one that started saying that it had become protestantised.
I think the reason is that the many catholic communities (Beatitudes, l'Emmanuel, Communauté Saint Jean etc) have been influenced by the charismatic movement. In fact, their entire spirituality is focused on charismas - they pray in tongues, have the repos de l'Esprit (where people fall over after being prayed on)..
In this sense, I said that it had become "protestantised". I did not mean that it had become different in terms of its dogmas.
The reason why this has happened is two fold:
a) Many protestant leaders became catholic. They did not leave their "protestant ways" behind them. Namely, Father Silouane; or Pere Silouane. He started the biggest charismatic movement in France, and although thousands of youth are attracted by his personal charisma, he has been told not to attend the actual prayer meetings he himself has started by the Archbishop of Versailles as its not "catholic".
2) THe youth want action. They are amazed by people falling over, people praying in tongues and "telling the future" praying styles. Even the Catholic Music in such communities has changed. Hymns now are so "upbeat" that they closely resemble contemporary Pop music.
The songs are so emotionally charged, that it would even appear that these "Pop-Hymns" actually were inspired by pop songs, with the Lord's Name replacing that of the girl in the lyrics.
Is any of this wrong?? Well, we discussed the Orthodox spirituality and why we, as an Orthodox Church, do not recommend singing love songs, nor emotionally charged songs. We do not let our emotions direct us, but rather the opposite. Through prayer, our emotions are tamed. This is the reason we encourage and we promote prayer through the "Agpeya" - the Psalms.
Very few communities, namely those pre-Vatican-II, are still orthodox in their catholicism. The rest of them, even the Jesuites, (as far as I can see) are "moving with the movement".
Im at a point where I believe if the youth of the Church complained that the Church was not encouraging lovemaking between strangers, they would demand that their parish distribute condoms. And I truly feel that these priests would be more than happy to oblige if it meant that their congregation would be "happy".
Sorry I am late but I have read only the first page and really didn't like the people weere answering. Our church might have had some changes but not as teh Catholics. I don't mean to sound mean or anything, and sorry to say it but money and power destroyed the catholic church and split its followers from Catholicism to Protestantism. I do have to say that the Catholic church changed its ways and became a great church again but still not as it used to be in the first couple of centuries. The Orthodox church is considered to be the closest church to the teaching of the apostles. While not one church really is the same as the Apostle church because we all changed. But the changes the Orthodox church faced were miner to the ones faced by our brothers the Catholics. I don't say the are wrong now, but have been influenced by t he Protestant reformation unlike the Orthodox, or at least more. In the faith however I don't believe we are that different but it was actually politics, and then people try to find difference in faith to explain it.
Forgive me if this is confusing Pray for my weakness.
I am happy however you joined this forum. Welcome.
That's true that Catholic church has changed but change could be good or wrong. Tradition cannot by dead becouse then is rigid, Church is alive and should be able to show it to the World. Even though I live in Poland I have a flat in Bulgaria. I attend there to Bulgarian Greek-catholic church, and after Dovine liturgy there is a small meeting, we drink excellent bulgarian wine, eat some pastries and talk. In Burgas works polish biritual priest and He tells me about religion life i Bulgaria. Young orthodox people are without any religious knowleage, Orthodox Church limites Her work only to exercise the sacraments. Such Church is dead. II Vatican Counsil brings new wind (wind in greek and hebrew means Spirit) of evangelisation, elements of mother tongue to the liturgy. This all for me was good... but unfortunatelly after Counsil some religious persons and leaders changed the letter of Counsil to the "wind of Counsil" and .... and liturgy was desecrated, some charismatic groups infiltraded from protestantism. But the last moves of Pope show us that the period of Counsil's wind is ending.
In last year Orthodox church in Poland translated Divine liturgy into polish and in some chapels is Divine liturgy in polish language, for some Orthodox it is betrayal of Tradition and Old Church slavic language, for others it is sign that Tradition is alive! Reforms of Nikon in 17cn in Russia bore as a fruit many blood and suffer. Look this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers . The border between orthodoxy and heresy sometime is very close to border between dead and alive Tradition. We can't let to Church become a herigate park!
When you look at Armenian Apostolic Church, in the Middle Ages She took many customs and habits from Latin (Catholic) Church. When I was in Armenia in Echmiadzin then I was in shock! I felt like in latin church. Armenian church as a only one doenst add a water to the wine, as only one Eastern Church uses host (unleavened bread).
In Orthodox liturgy there are such words
It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos.
Most pure in old Church slavic language is пренепорочна (immaculated)!!! Orthodox Church in Divine liturgy preaches that Theotokos is immaculated.
ps I'd like to apologize for my english I'm not fluent in this language and every post needs from me big effort :)
Comments
I'll give u an extract from a famous book of St.Cyril the Great of Alexandria who is considered a doctor of the roman catholic church :
from Scholia on the incarnation of the Only-Begotten. LFC 47, Oxford (1881) pp.185-236.
A library of fathers of the holy Catholic church: anterior to the division of the East and West, vol. 47
For if there were any whatever who should dare to say that this flesh made of earth had become mother of the bare Godhead, and that she bare out of her own self the Nature which is over the whole creation, the thing would be madness and nothing else: for not of earth has the Divine Nature been made, nor will that which is subject to decay (because the nature of the Virgin represents the decay nature of humanity) become the root of immortality nor that which is subject to death bear the Life of all things, nor yet the Unembodied be the fruit of the palpable body, that which is subject to birth [bear] that which is superior to birth, that which hath its beginning in time, that which is without beginning.
Please , is Cyril a heretic ?
or pope john paul who prayed with 500 000 indonesian muslim can understand this dogma more than him?
at last , Catholicity of RCC is not important... the important is Orthodoxy of the teaching , and let's discuss later what did the fathers of Nicaea say about that dogma ...
in Christ,
Mina
infact I did not notice that there is [1] [2] .., [5] pages ... I thought that the last page is [1] because I used to defend for Orthodox faith in forums in other sites which have different types of forums
I recommend any orthodox to revise www.monachos.net
it is really very deep and high level orthodox spiritual web site.
sorry for any disturbance and please pray for me.
in Christ ,
Dioscorus
Hi everyone,
I am new here, and yes I am a Catholic. I have read some of your threads about Catholicism and have seen much inaccurate information bieng Spread about The Catholic church. But before I do that i would like to ask you a question:
I have heard many of you say that the Catholic church has become "protestantized"
how many of you Think this?
Before the church became protestantized what was your view of Her?
God Bless,
Sam
Hi Tu es Petrus,
Yes, I was the one that started saying that it had become protestantised.
I think the reason is that the many catholic communities (Beatitudes, l'Emmanuel, Communauté Saint Jean etc) have been influenced by the charismatic movement. In fact, their entire spirituality is focused on charismas - they pray in tongues, have the repos de l'Esprit (where people fall over after being prayed on)..
In this sense, I said that it had become "protestantised". I did not mean that it had become different in terms of its dogmas.
The reason why this has happened is two fold:
a) Many protestant leaders became catholic. They did not leave their "protestant ways" behind them. Namely, Father Silouane; or Pere Silouane. He started the biggest charismatic movement in France, and although thousands of youth are attracted by his personal charisma, he has been told not to attend the actual prayer meetings he himself has started by the Archbishop of Versailles as its not "catholic".
2) THe youth want action. They are amazed by people falling over, people praying in tongues and "telling the future" praying styles.
Even the Catholic Music in such communities has changed. Hymns now are so "upbeat" that they closely resemble contemporary Pop music.
The songs are so emotionally charged, that it would even appear that these "Pop-Hymns" actually were inspired by pop songs, with the Lord's Name replacing that of the girl in the lyrics.
Is any of this wrong?? Well, we discussed the Orthodox spirituality and why we, as an Orthodox Church, do not recommend singing love songs, nor emotionally charged songs. We do not let our emotions direct us, but rather the opposite. Through prayer, our emotions are tamed. This is the reason we encourage and we promote prayer through the "Agpeya" - the Psalms.
Very few communities, namely those pre-Vatican-II, are still orthodox in their catholicism. The rest of them, even the Jesuites, (as far as I can see) are "moving with the movement".
Im at a point where I believe if the youth of the Church complained that the Church was not encouraging lovemaking between strangers, they would demand that their parish distribute condoms. And I truly feel that these priests would be more than happy to oblige if it meant that their congregation would be "happy".
Forgive me if this is confusing
Pray for my weakness.
I am happy however you joined this forum. Welcome.
That's true that Catholic church has changed but change could be good or wrong. Tradition cannot by dead becouse then is rigid, Church is alive and should be able to show it to the World. Even though I live in Poland I have a flat in Bulgaria. I attend there to Bulgarian Greek-catholic church, and after Dovine liturgy there is a small meeting, we drink excellent bulgarian wine, eat some pastries and talk. In Burgas works polish biritual priest and He tells me about religion life i Bulgaria. Young orthodox people are without any religious knowleage, Orthodox Church limites Her work only to exercise the sacraments. Such Church is dead. II Vatican Counsil brings new wind (wind in greek and hebrew means Spirit) of evangelisation, elements of mother tongue to the liturgy. This all for me was good... but unfortunatelly after Counsil some religious persons and leaders changed the letter of Counsil to the "wind of Counsil" and .... and liturgy was desecrated, some charismatic groups infiltraded from protestantism. But the last moves of Pope show us that the period of Counsil's wind is ending.
In last year Orthodox church in Poland translated Divine liturgy into polish and in some chapels is Divine liturgy in polish language, for some Orthodox it is betrayal of Tradition and Old Church slavic language, for others it is sign that Tradition is alive!
Reforms of Nikon in 17cn in Russia bore as a fruit many blood and suffer. Look this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers .
The border between orthodoxy and heresy sometime is very close to border between dead and alive Tradition.
We can't let to Church become a herigate park!
When you look at Armenian Apostolic Church, in the Middle Ages She took many customs and habits from Latin (Catholic) Church. When I was in Armenia in Echmiadzin then I was in shock! I felt like in latin church. Armenian church as a only one doenst add a water to the wine, as only one Eastern Church uses host (unleavened bread).
In Orthodox liturgy there are such words Most pure in old Church slavic language is пренепорочна (immaculated)!!! Orthodox Church in Divine liturgy preaches that Theotokos is immaculated.
ps I'd like to apologize for my english I'm not fluent in this language and every post needs from me big effort :)
in Christ
marcin