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Stigmata
What is the take of the Coptic Orthodox faith on stigmata?
Comments
What is the take of the Coptic Orthodox faith on stigmata?
I think the belief in stigmata is a purely Roman Catholic one, and I doubt the Coptic Church has issued any official statment on the subject.
But take the story of Myrna Nazzour for instance. She visited HH Pope Shenouda III. While he didn't issue any formal declaration that what was going on was true, her hands oozed oil in his presence and he didn't declare any of her stigmatas or oil oozing demonic.
For the story of Myrna Nazzour go to http://www.livingmiracles.net/Myrna.html
For what happened with HH Pope Shenouda III got to http://www.soufanieh.com/mn/1997.appeal.for.unity.htm
In that second website, to go directly to the part with our Pope, click Ctrl+F and search for "shenouda".
Please read and tell me what you think. I'm quite confused.
Yes, that's true.
But take the story of Myrna Nazzour for instance. She visited HH Pope Shenouda III. While he didn't issue any formal declaration that what was going on was true, her hands oozed oil in his presence and he didn't declare any of her stigmatas or oil oozing demonic.
For the story of Myrna Nazzour go to http://www.livingmiracles.net/Myrna.html
For what happened with HH Pope Shenouda III got to http://www.soufanieh.com/mn/1997.appeal.for.unity.htm
In that second website, to go directly to the part with our Pope, click Ctrl+F and search for "shenouda".
Please read and tell me what you think. I'm quite confused.
Well, first of all the woman is a Catholic, and so I guess we should treat this case in the same way as the apparition of St. Mary at Lourdes, etc. That is, with suspicion and caution.
Also, I didn't see anything Pope Shenouda did as suggesting that he accepted her claims or that he himself believed stigmata to be a real phenomenon. Just that he was interested in talking to her.
From what I know, the stigmata originated with "St." Francis of Assisi, who wished to suffer as Christ suffered, and as a result began to develop these marks (I'm sorry I don't know in more detail).
It has happened frequently to others; but almost all are Catholics (mainly women of religious orders), which causes me to question their authenticity.
I think that, although many such people are serious, I would not rule out the possibility that they are simply self-harming, but are unaware of it (doing it subconciously or something). It could also be that it is psychosomatic.
Anyone else know a bit more about this???
I find it a very controversial issue, and my stance on it is that Stigmata is a truly rediculous occuernce.
How can one endure the pain that Our Lord went through? No-one, and I repeat no-one is able to be worthy enough to experience his suffering and anguish.
Isn't it a bit sus that this Myrna lady in the article experienced the stigmata 6 times ::). Just my hypothesis.
And, how is it that when St Mary first appeared to her, she "Screamed and ran away...frightened"! What is this telling you. When a saint, or the Holy Mother of God appears to a blessed person, they are filled with total and utter peace. How is it that she became afraid? I find that ridiculous. Maybe even devilish.
I am going to ask my priest about this on Sunday and see what he says. However, I do know that apparently our church accepts St Francis of Asisi as a 'saint', I have a sermon on it at home, so again it isn't quite clear exactly what this view is.
I have one question though, how come when His Holiness met Myrna (in the article), he did not say anythign to her about these so called 'religious' incidents? Why is it that he only wiped the oil from her hands? Again, it is a bit unusual.
Mazza
Pray for me.
However, I do know that apparently our church accepts St Francis of Asisi as a 'saint'
How can the COC view him as a Saint when he belonged to the Western church long after they broke communion with the COC?
I mean, the Coptic Church accepts the fact that he is a 'saint' in the Catholic church.
Sorry for misinterpreting it.
Firstly, stigmata is not something that only happens to female religious... One of the most famous Catholic's in modern times to have the stigmata for over 40 years of his life is a Capuchin Franciscan monk called Padre Pio who recently was made a saint. He died in the late 1950's.
I think it is insensitive to say that if a person wishes to join in Christ's suffering that it is ridiculous. The Western Church has its own form of spiritual expression as does the Eastern churches have its own form of spiritual expression. You see this in the different ways the mass is celebrated in the different rites (Antiochian rite, Latin rite for example).
Would any of you like that someone says that some of the traditions or practices in the Coptic Church are ridiculous? I don't think so....
And to make things clear... Myrna is Catholic, but, her husband is Orthodox and both the local Catholic AND Orthodox Bishops have given their approval concerning what is happening with Myrna.
I don't think it is unusual for someone to get scared if they saw the Theotokos, Jesus Christ or any other saint. I would feel so unworthy due to my own sins to have any of them appear before me.
I think to say that you can only respond in such a remarkable situation in this or that way is to limit all human beings. God and the saints do not only appear to people that are already saints or holy. There are many many cases of sinners who through an apparition or vision of Jesus or the saints have changed their lives completely due to this occurring.
I see time and time again assumptions and generalizations made about Catholics on this forum and it makes me tired.
If you believe strongly in your faith then you have no need to make up untruths or post assumptions like they are fact on these forums. I can see if you state that you are not sure about something.. that is a different matter. You may not believe another faith to be true, but, if you are going to speak to any of another faith and you want to defend your own to show them the truth, then speaking untruths about their faith is not going to help you open their eyes to the truth.
More and more I have become closer to the Catholic Church and am thinking of conversion because I can't stand how with many, BUT NOT ALL in the Coptic church culture often goes ahead of faith.
Sorry... rant over....
I see time and time again assumptions and generalizations made about Catholics on this forum and it makes me tired.
If you believe strongly in your faith then you have no need to make up untruths or post assumptions like they are fact on these forums. I can see if you state that you are not sure about something.. that is a different matter. You may not believe another faith to be true, but, if you are going to speak to any of another faith and you want to defend your own to show them the truth, then speaking untruths about their faith is not going to help you open their eyes to the truth.
More and more I have become closer to the Catholic Church and am thinking of conversion because I can't stand how with many, BUT NOT ALL in the Coptic church culture often goes ahead of faith.
I'll second that. I think sometimes Coptics go a little overboard in attempting to disprove other religions, or even sects of christianity. I think sometimes we should just let things be. As for the case of Myrna Nazzour, i am 100% convinced that she is honoured with what he know as the "stigmata". In fact i have seen a video of it happening to her. To be honest i was amazed at how her wounds opened so clearly and so fast, how her hands and feet started to bleed quite fast, and scratches appeared on her head (where Jesus had the crown of thorns placed). I have also read a lot about her case.
At the end of the day though I am concerned mostly with Coptic Orthodox matters, and so my interest in the case of Mryna Nazzour is a side interest. I believe it because the case appears to be entirely credibile. I shouldnt let my judgement over the case be wrapped up in my dedication to the Coptic Church, or a belief that our faith is superior etc.
As MyrnaMar is saying, people here often go overboard in matters that are not related to the Coptic Orthodox Church. For example, Mazza (and dont get offended), you labeled the whole thing as "ridiculous". I mean here are two things that should provoke some thought - firstly, what if the whole thing IS real, you have called an act of God "ridiculous". Second of all, how would you feel if people called the miracles from Baba Kyrillos to be "ridiculous"?? I hope you can see what im getting at in both examples.
Ma salaama,
Matt
I too have studied greatly the case of Myrna Nazzour and one thing I forgot to point out is that when the Theotokos appeared to Myrna the message the Theotokos always stressed was "UNITY BETWEEN ALL THE DIVIDED CHURCHES". The fact that Myrna's husband is Orthodox and that Myrna was chosen to spread the message of UNITY is very very important.
You can read the whole story about Our Lady of Soufanieh concerning Myrna, her stigmata and the messages she received in this online book written by Rick Sabalto. He spent 1 year with Myrna in Damascus and has studied both Catholic and Orthodox cases of apparitions and miraculous icons. He respects the Orthodox greatly and I have spoken to him by e-mail several times... Here is the link:
http://www.unitypublishing.com/damascus.html
My problem is that I understand and can relate to both sides of the story; the one that sees some devilish potential and the one that appreciates the Catholics' need for passion (pain) in their religious lives.
But it's got to be one answer; true or false.
Does anyone know how Stigmata is translated to Arabic? I think I'll have to ask my Church priest and I don't think any of them will know what the word means in English.
Yes, it's very important in raising alarm bells over the authenticity of this incident. There is no unity between the RC and Orthodox Church; that is a heretical ecclesiological belief. The unity of the Church is expressed through a unity in faith and communion between her members. We do not share a unity of faith with the RC's nor are their members allowed to commune with our Churches, and therefore there is not unity between us and the RC's. To say so is to contradict 2000 years of Church Tradition.
To continue to support the authenticity of this incident is now, in light of this revelation, more foolish than to deny it. In the end, I agree that no one should concern themselves with this incident, for it is the express teaching of our heirarchs that we not concern ourselves with such phenomena.
On December 30, 1982, His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV Hazim made an official declaration in the newspapers to all Greek Orthodox churches in Damascus giving recognition as to the the oil oozing from the Icon in Myrna's home....
It is very easy for you to find out if this information is true. I have no reason to lie about it.
So are you trying to say that you knew about this and that it never happened? Or is it that you are not aware of it and just making assumptions again?
I cannot believe how anyone can make a blanket statement such as what you Iqbal posted above: "To continue to support the authenticity of this incident is now, in light of this revelation, more foolish than to deny it." Your words Iqbal... not mine...
So any talk of UNITY automatically makes what is happening to Myrna a lie... interesting. Such logic is amazing.
Also, there was a Unity mass that the Syrian Orthodox ArchBishop gave approval of in Sunday August 4, 1985. The famous singer Wadih Al-Safi sang at this mass. You had Catholic AND Orthodox attending this mass.
If you want to maintain your position fine... but, I would never dare to contradict or even speak words about a matter when I am not fully informed, especially to say that there is no authenticity in this matter as if no Orthodox religious authority has not made any declarations concerning Myrna.
Whether I believe in Myrna or her stigmata is not of importance. I will always believe in my Lord and I am sure that such hardness of heart when it comes to UNITY of all the churches is not what Our Lord wants... Our Lord wants us to follow the heart of the law and not the letter of the law.
One of the messages the Theotokos gave Myrna is this:
"THE CHURCH IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ON EARTH.
HE WHO DIVIDED IT HAS SINNED.
HE WHO IS HAPPY WITH THESE DIVISIONS HAS ALSO SINNED.
THROUGH YOUR EXAMPLE I WILL EDUCATE MY GENERATION."
I would have to agree that there are too many people more than happy about the divisions... and because of pride and following the letter of the law prevent over and over unification.
Therefore, the opinion of the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Antioch is not an authoritative opinion for Coptic Orthodox faithful. Ironically, Myrna, it is you who is making assumptions, and unlike you, I will prove the basis of my accusation against you, for my accusation, unlike yours, is warranted. I am not doubting the factual authenticity of the events in question (in other words, I am not doubting whether in actual fact Myrna's hands start pouring oil etc.), I am doubting the divine authenticity of the events in question (in other words I am doubting whether they are divinely instigated and approved). If apparitions/phenomena are accompanied by messages which contradict the Divinely Inspired Tradition of the Church (e.g. messages of false unity), then what is happening to Myrnna is probably not divinely approved.
It's the same case with the Marian apparition in Lourdes, where St. Mary was alleged to say: "I am the Immaculate conception". The Immaculate Conception is a false doctrine, and as the teaching of such a doctrine was associated with the apparition in question, suspicion is casted upon the apparition itself. It's the same principle. Yes, it’s very simple logic. God doesn’t contradict himself. He reveals the Truth to His Church, and that Truth is the criterion by which we judge such things. He doesn’t teach the Church that there is only One Church one minute, only to then send His Mother to teach Myrna that there are many Churches all united like one big happy family the next minute. Unless you have an official document narrating the event in question with sufficient detail, your comment in this regard is useless. You have already confused the true Syrian Orthodox Patriarch (His Holiness Mar Ignatius Zakka I) with the Chalcedonian Patriarch (Patriarch Ignatius IV), so how do we know if you even have the right Orthodox ArchBishop in question?
According to the Ecumenism section of the official Syrian Orthodox Church website (that is blessed and sanctioned by H.H. Mar Ignatios Zakka I), the latest Ecumenical incident of significance between the RCC and SOC was the joint declaration of 1984[/u[u]], between Pope John Paul II and His Holiness Patriarch Mar Ignatius Zakka I. Point 8 of this dialogue reads:
Since it is the chief expression of Christian unity between the faithful and between Bishops and priests, the Holy Eucharist cannot yet be concelebrated by us. Such celebration supposes a complete identity of faith such as does not yet exist between us.
Source: http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/RC.html
That is the official teaching of the Syrian Orthodox Church. This is a cop-out. We are not discussing whether division is a good or bad thing; whether it is something to be happy about or sad about. All division is evil, and we mourn all those who have severed themselves from the Church.
We are discussing the fact that division exists, and those who wish to deny the existence of such division (and hence those who wish to promote false unity) are challenging the authority of the Church.
So, to sum it all up for you, my position is based on the Tradition of the Church as expressed through the Holy Fathers and as expressed by the authoritative judgments of our hierarchs, such as that of His Grace Bishop Youssef who states regarding the stigmata phenomena in general:
Stigmata is a phenomenon foreign to the Orthodox experience and, as such, the Church has no official position towards it. Such things may be signs from God, or they could be deceptions or distractions from the devil. The best thing is to remain focused on Christ and not give much heed to these phenomena. In the end what matters above everything is God and God alone. Therefore we should not allow any distracters to shift our focus.
I read that scientists are inclined to believe that the stigmata are connected with nervous or cataleptic hysteria.
The advice with which I concluded my last post, which you accused of being presumptuous, no more or less reflects the very advice given above.
"Therefore, the opinion of the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Antioch is not an authoritative opinion for Coptic Orthodox faithful."
Did I say anything even close to resembling whether the Patriarch was Eastern or Oriental Orthodox? I said Orthodox and there are plenty of Orthodox who would say that the Coptic Church is not truely an Orthodox Church.
And again:
"Quote:
So any talk of UNITY automatically makes what is happening to Myrna a lie...
-------------
If apparitions/phenomena are accompanied by messages which contradict the Divinely Inspired Tradition of the Church (e.g. messages of false unity), then what is happening to Myrnna is probably not divinely approved. "
--------------
How do you know that the messages are promoting a false unity or what God's plan is concerning it? I think for anyone to think they know God's plan on how exactly all may be "ONE" makes me suspicious.
In JOHN 10:16 we clearly see " And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; that I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd."
Not you or I know how God will bring this about... How do you know when or in what way God will bring UNITY about?
Your mindset is exactly one of the major reasons why I am leaving the Coptic Church. I love Our Lord Jesus Christ, but, to be honest the mindset in the Coptic community culturally, the nationalistic views of some, lack of forgiveness and presumptions of many in our community make me tired.
The straw that broke the camel's back and starting me questioning heavily whether the Coptic church is really where I should be was the way in which our community here in Jersey City (and on these boards) acted when the Armanious family was murdered.
I saw no Christian Charity and only saw God's commandment of not bearing false witness against your neighbor (even if your neighbor is Muslim, Hindu...etc.) being broken over and over. I am tired of the judgementalism... lack of forgiveness even with each other. The worst of it being felt by young Coptic women that God help them if they should sin and repent... they will still be looked at as Lepers.
I don't want to hear that not all Copts are this way... The only Copts I have seen that are more forgiving and show mercy are with Copts born in America or who have lived here a long time... and even those are few are far between.
I am sorry to be making this thread about me.... I will no longer be visiting these forums and now I see why my posts are every once in a while. Thank you brother Iqbal. You have made it very clear for me to see that the Coptic community is not for me.
It is not that I have a personal bias against the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch or anything of the sort, it is just that he is simply not an authoritative spokesperson for us for he is not a heirarch of our Church. Myrna, are you Coptic Orthodox? Do you realise you are in a Coptic Orthodox forum? Do you understand that the one who started this thread is Coptic Orthodox, and that they are inquiring into the Coptic Orthodox position on stigmata?
If your answer to the above questions is yes, then your observation regarding what other people think about us is irrelevant to this discussion. Who cares what other people think about us? Everyone has a right to an opinion, but how is that relevant to what the Coptic Orthodox thinks about stigmata? Because they seem to challenge the existence of the divisions between our Church and other Churches; divisions which are officially recognised by our Church and those other Churches in question. Please do not blame me for your spiritual immaturity. It was St. Paul, who, through the inspiration of God, laid down the fundamental ecclesiological principles which dictate that there is but One Church and that that One Church is expressed through doctrinal and sacramental unity. This was further confirmed by the Holy Fathers, particularly those of the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople, the holy one-hundred-and-fifty who redacted the Holy Nicene Creed to include an adaptation of St. Paul’s ecclesiological formula.
Your resistance against the Church is not a resistance against a human mindset; it’s a resistance against the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, such an ecclesiology is not exclusive to the Coptic Orthodox Church; it is one officially shared by the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. Remember, that the excerpt from the official Ecumenical dialogue between the RC and Syrian Orthodox Church (which I pasted in my previous post) was advocated by both the RC Pope and the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch. Nationalistic views? Who mentioned anything about ethnicity here? Despite the irrelevance of this comment, the fact of the matter is that there is a sense of nationalism in most ethnically based Churches, whether it be the Coptic Church, the Greek Church, the Russian Church, the Indian Church etc. It is the result of sinful human pride.
In the end, the Church is a hospital, and to judge the authenticity of that hospital by the sickness of its patients is spiritually immature. I repeat: In the end, the Church is a hospital, and to judge the authenticity of that hospital by the sickness of its patients is spiritually immature.
It doesn’t sound like you take matters of faith very seriously, and if this is the sort of spiritually immature attitude you are planning to maintain, one can probably expect that you will be Church-hopping from one to the next for the rest of your life because, I hate to break it to you, but you will never find the perfect congregation. I am not responsible for the principles of Orthodox ecclesiology which you seem to have a problem with. God revealed them, our Fathers taught them, and I am merely reiterating them as I have learnt them from the pages of the Scriptures and the writings of our Fathers.
Before you do anything rash, I would advise you to consult your Father of Confession and talk things out with him. Why you have taken our discussion personally, I do not know; but to take out whatever personal issues you have with me, or the NJ congregation, against God Himself in defiance of His Church and at the risk of your own salvation, would be very foolish indeed, and I think you need to slow down and discuss your problems with your spiritual adviser.
Maybe the Lord is truly working through this lady, maybe not. We are in no position to judge. Let us humble ourselves enough to acknowledge our limited capacity to understand things beyond us, and let us respect and submit to the judgment of our heirarchs, men lead by the Holy Spirit of God.
I’m going to sidetrack this thread with my post since this has turned into a personal matter so I apologize in advance.
I personally attend church in order to pray to God, receive the Holy Eucharist, and serve as a Sunday school teacher.
Ask yourself why do you honestly go to church?
I am Coptic because in my heart I believe it to be the right church and it’s where I find my peace. I have read, listened, and observed sufficient amounts of material, which led me to my decision that the Coptic Church is the true church for me.
Ask yourself have you read enough about the Coptic Church’s history, theology, saints, dogma, and the church fathers in order to make a rational decision concerning your choice to leave the Coptic Church?
I think that the problem lies with too many people not being able to separate between the Coptic Church and the Coptic people, and when they get fed up with the people they blame the church and decide to leave it since its not worth the headaches. There is a substantial difference, and you must separate between the two or else you will be going to church for all the wrong reasons and consequently you will be leaving the church for all the wrong reasons.
The Coptic community (if you would call them a community) are no different then any type of groups. You will face problems, politics, and deceit in any religion or faith you choose. Therefore, strengthen your relationship with God and not the people for your own salvations sake.
In His Name
-Anyway; the following link could be usefull for the topic. We all know that this is NOT the opinion of the Coptic Church, because the Coptic Church doesn't have an opinion yet in this regard.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx
-I think this issue, has nothing to do with Oriental Vs Eastern Orthodox. I believe these issues are considered minor and like other issues, there are different opinions, regarding certain matters within the Oriental churchs.
I pray that the link above might help.
God bless you all.
Fibo