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Tattoos continued
"The bible does NOT become out dated. There were problems such as homosexuality and bestiality since the beginning of time. If God made the bible to become outdated then we would not refer to it now and it would become worthless with time. Gods words will NEVER loose their significance or their bearing."
No one believes the Bible is outdated, but it must be read in the correct context. The Bible is not a blanket statement of yes and no, but a guide to be understood in the way it was written. Otherwise you get a bunch of misinformation like protestants.
"As for the tattoos, the bible clearly states not to defile the temple of god. REGARDLESS of the context, you don’t destroy your body. People often say “it’s my body, I can do what I want”; incorrect, it’s not your body, its god’s, he is just lending it to you for 80 some odd years, so you ought to take good care of it."
No one disputes that you shouldn't defile your body, but who says tattoos are defiling? What isn't defiling? someone could argue eating McDonalds or Burger King is defiling your body...
What about sugary soft drinks like Coke and Pepsi? The only difference is that those are internal while a tattoo is external. Yes, a tattoo is permanent, so it eating fatty fast foods where the fat clogs arteries, the sugar damages the body also..
"What is the benefit of destroying your body? Expressing yourself? Save the liberal attitude for gay rights activists. There is no benefit to defiling the temple of Christ."
I never saw anyone destroyed for getting a tattoo... what about those who previously did get them? Are they all damned to hell? Homosexuality and tattoos are not the same thing, equating those two is heinous
I disagree with blanket statements of condemnation, you can't judge a persons intention by looking at the external only. I say leave the judgments to God, if you have a righteous reason to get a tattoo, do it, otherwise its best to refrain. Just remember it is permanent..
No one believes the Bible is outdated, but it must be read in the correct context. The Bible is not a blanket statement of yes and no, but a guide to be understood in the way it was written. Otherwise you get a bunch of misinformation like protestants.
"As for the tattoos, the bible clearly states not to defile the temple of god. REGARDLESS of the context, you don’t destroy your body. People often say “it’s my body, I can do what I want”; incorrect, it’s not your body, its god’s, he is just lending it to you for 80 some odd years, so you ought to take good care of it."
No one disputes that you shouldn't defile your body, but who says tattoos are defiling? What isn't defiling? someone could argue eating McDonalds or Burger King is defiling your body...
What about sugary soft drinks like Coke and Pepsi? The only difference is that those are internal while a tattoo is external. Yes, a tattoo is permanent, so it eating fatty fast foods where the fat clogs arteries, the sugar damages the body also..
"What is the benefit of destroying your body? Expressing yourself? Save the liberal attitude for gay rights activists. There is no benefit to defiling the temple of Christ."
I never saw anyone destroyed for getting a tattoo... what about those who previously did get them? Are they all damned to hell? Homosexuality and tattoos are not the same thing, equating those two is heinous
I disagree with blanket statements of condemnation, you can't judge a persons intention by looking at the external only. I say leave the judgments to God, if you have a righteous reason to get a tattoo, do it, otherwise its best to refrain. Just remember it is permanent..
Comments
No one disputes that you shouldn't defile your body, but who says tattoos are defiling? What isn't defiling? someone could argue eating McDonalds or Burger King is defiling your body...
What about sugary soft drinks like Coke and Pepsi? The only difference is that those are internal while a tattoo is external. Yes, a tattoo is permanent, so it eating fatty fast foods where the fat clogs arteries, the sugar damages the body also..
Mark 7:18-20
So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
why is skin an exception, it is also on the outside...
1 You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, 2 for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.
Is this a prohibition against shaving your head, or is it the pagan Egyptian practice of shaving the head FOR THE DEAD?
Obviously it isn't wrong to shave your head, its only wrong to shave it for pagan practices.
according to this view, Abraham defiled himself by circumcision, and so did all the Jews that followed his way.
First of all, Christ was circumcised. Are you saying that He defiled his body by doing so?
Second,
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:11
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.
Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Colossians 2:11
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ
The Covenant of Circumcision
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [1] ; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram [2] ; your name will be Abraham, [3] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner-those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
It was a command from God that the children would be circumsiced, and now we are circumsiced by Him:
Colossians 2:11
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ
Also, some Egyptians, till today, that are Copts, are circumcised and that's not defilying ur body, it's healthy for a male.
Michael
[quote author=Michael_Thoma link=board=1;threadid=421;start=0#msg5969 date=1089077104]
according to this view, Abraham defiled himself by circumcision, and so did all the Jews that followed his way.
First of all, Christ was circumcised. Are you saying that He defiled his body by doing so?
Second,
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Galatians 5:11
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.
Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Colossians 2:11
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ
The effects on the body of tattoos and piercings are generally less extreme than circumcision. If circumcision is not "defiling", then neither are piercings and tattoos (unless unreasonably excessive).
BTW, if someone can make the argument that the Biblical verses regarding the correct treatment of slaves still have practical application as written today, then please let us know. Otherwise, those Biblical rules are outdated.
God bless!
Mike
Circumcision has a benefit, piercing and tatooing does NOT!
Mike
Sure they have a "benefit", in that they look "good" to a lot of people. They're just like getting braces, although braces are more mainstream. So what's the difference?
God bless!
Mike
The effects on the body of tattoos and piercings are generally less extreme than circumcision. If circumcision is not "defiling", then neither are piercings and tattoos (unless unreasonably excessive).
The word "defile" is not defined by the amount of pain you feel when you do something.
Leviticus 19:28
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.
He clearly tells you NO about tattoos. If you want to argue then go ahead, but remember.
Matthew 5:37
But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
[quote author=NettledCrown link=board=1;threadid=421;start=0#msg5976 date=1089080379]
BTW, if someone can make the argument that the Biblical verses regarding the correct treatment of slaves still have practical application as written today, then please let us know. Otherwise, those Biblical rules are outdated.
no such thing as a biblical verse being outdated.
"The word of the Lord, shall grow, multiply, be mighty, and be confirmed in the Holy Church of God forever Amen."
"As it was and shall be, from generation to generation, and unto the age of all ages Amen."
Nettled Crown, looking "good" is not the only reason, Circumcision prevents mold and bacteria growing wich affects the male system and sometimes causes his skin to rot.
Mike
But my question was about the difference between tats/piercings and braces, other than the fact that braces are more mainstream. (I should have been more clear.)
God bless!
The word "defile" is not defined by the amount of pain you feel when you do something.
Leviticus 19:28
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.
He clearly tells you NO about tattoos. If you want to argue then go ahead, but remember.
Matthew 5:37
But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
It is vital to remain aware of the historical context of an OT passage in order to understand the rule it states. In the case of the verse in Leviticus, the rule targetted "marks" because they were pagan practices. Anyways, here's another thing to consider:
_____________
One must be very careful about trying to use Old Testament passages as proof-texts for what one may or may not practice in the Christian age. It is a fundamental aspect of Bible doctrine that the Mosaic system was abrogated by the death of Christ (Eph. 2:14ff; Col. 2:14ff). The law of Moses, therefore, is not the Christian’s standard by which to measure conduct.
The following observations are in order:
This same chapter (Leviticus 19) also provides instruction for appropriate conduct in conjunction with offering animal sacrifices. It requires leaving certain portions of one’s crops unharvested (in the interest of the poor). The sowing of two types of seed in the same field is prohibited. The Hebrews were not to wear a garment with two different fabrics combined (e.g., wool and linen). When new fruit trees were planted, none of the fruit was to be eaten for the first three years. There are restrictions about how the man’s hair was to be cut, and the manner in which his beard might not be trimmed. Keeping the Sabbath is enjoined, etc.
Why should we focus on one of these injunctions to the exclusion of the others?
The immediate context of Leviticus 19:27-28 suggests that Moses was attempting to inoculate Israel against the emulation of certain heathen practices related to idolatry.
For example, the prophet forbids “cutting the flesh” in the passage under consideration; yet no one contends that medical surgery is being condemned. Rather, “cuttings” in the flesh “for the dead” are in view (cf. also 1 Kgs. 18:28). This was an idolatrous practice.
Too, ancient archaeological evidence indicates that some of the Canaanites would tattoo themselves with the names or symbols of their favorite “gods.” This appears to be what the prophet is condemning, not the modern custom of “esthetic” tattooing - regardless of how distasteful such a practice may be to many people.
Since the New Testament does not address the issue of tattooing specifically, one must be guided by principle. Any practice that is vulgar, gaudy, or a distraction to one’s Christian influence should be avoided. But, to some extent, this is a matter of taste and judgment.
No one can presume to prescribe conduct for everyone else in matters of this nature. Is it appropriate for women to wear make-up? How about permanent eye-liner? May men and women adorn themselves with jewelry? May they pierce their ears?
Christians must attempt to employ sound judgment in such matters, and give no occasion to the adversary for reviling (1 Tim. 5:14). Moreover, a Christian’s personal privacy and right of choice must be respected in ambiguous areas of judgment. This is the most a wise Bible instructor can say.
[quote author=Paulh link=board=1;threadid=421;start=0#msg5981 date=1089083205]
no such thing as a biblical verse being outdated.
"The word of the Lord, shall grow, multiply, be mighty, and be confirmed in the Holy Church of God forever Amen."
"As it was and shall be, from generation to generation, and unto the age of all ages Amen."
"If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. "
Deuteronomy 15:12
If you can't explain to how this Biblical verse has practical application today, then the rule stated in it is outdated.
God bless!
Nettled Crown, looking "good" is not the only reason, Circumcision prevents mold and bacteria growing wich affects the male system and sometimes causes his skin to rot.
Mike
Mike I have to disagree with you on this one. Doctors today are split as to the practicality of circumcision. There have been no significant differences in cleanliness between circumcised and uncircumcised men. Actually circumcision seems to dull the [area], and uncircumcised men have greater sensation [in the area] when engaging in [the procreative act (only with their spouses, the way they should!! ;) ]
Mike
I did actually bring that up and here's one of my posts in the other thread..
By the way, what's MTM? Is it that Egyptian rap band??
Mike
HAHAHAHAH arabic rap.. gotta love it
ASM
Esp. coz they're trying their best to imitate the west... ;)
Mike
Hey MTM,
I did actually bring that up and here's one of my posts in the other thread..
By the way, what's MTM? Is it that Egyptian rap band??
Mike
i didn't know the story behind it...thats interesting
the thing is, it still could have meaning to people today. i personally don't have one, but some of my family members do. i think that its very symbolic not just because of its symbol as a cross, but it also shows how far we've come as Christians
btw, how'd u know it was my rap group? Christian rap of course....ur good ;)
lol i'm jus playin....mtm is my initals....well, kinda
I do agree with you on that, the Sign symvolizes:
1. Our true origin, also Cross "nailed" or scratched to our skin on our wrists
2. Blue and green remind us of the colour of the necks of the martyrs who were given very heavy Crosses to carry by the Roman government, a kind of persecution...
3. Remind us that we have to carry this tiny Cross instead of the HUGE one Jesus is carrying for us.
This is however my opinion..
Mike
If ur love for God isn't enough to keep someone on track then a blue green permanent cross on ur wrist wont
Awesome MTM,
I do agree with you on that, the Sign symvolizes:
1. Our true origin, also Cross "nailed" or scratched to our skin on our wrists
2. Blue and green remind us of the colour of the necks of the martyrs who were given very heavy Crosses to carry by the Roman government, a kind of persecution...
3. Remind us that we have to carry this tiny Cross instead of the HUGE one Jesus is carrying for us.
This is however my opinion..
Mike
yea i agree mike..high five! ;D
i mean ya, you can alwayz have it removed... lazerly or by surgery.... but y?
i still havent read one good reason as to WHY we should tattoo our bodies and shoot holes into them...
as for the reasons to have a little cross.. that is the nicest way of thinking symbolically of it..... now i want one even more! lol
as for braces.... its to improve the health of ur teeth...
Thanks.. ;) Ya, same here, yet I'm scared of the pain, did anyone try before?
Mike
http://www.familymedicine.co.uk/features/circum3.htm
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/sask2002/
http://www.courtchallenge.com/letters/skcoll2.html
http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DOC/
[quote author=Paulh link=board=1;threadid=421;start=0#msg5981 date=1089083205]
no such thing as a biblical verse being outdated.
"The word of the Lord, shall grow, multiply, be mighty, and be confirmed in the Holy Church of God forever Amen."
"As it was and shall be, from generation to generation, and unto the age of all ages Amen."
"If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. "
Deuteronomy 15:12
If you can't explain to how this Biblical verse has practical application today, then the rule stated in it is outdated.
If there was still slavery today (which i'm sure there is), then according to Christian behavior, it he should be released after 6 years. But you must remember, that this verse is from the old testament. It is not outdated, but some verses in the old testament are there to let you know how things were back then. The verse is not outdated...and it still has significance. Just like when the bible tells you to offer fat calves as sacrifices...that was in the old testament. In the new testament that changed, but it has its significance in the old testament, and will never be outdated. hope i make sense...
pray for me
Just a question, it's kinda REALLY wrong, but is any1 circumsiced here??
Mike
All Copts must be circumsiced. It's a tradition and a sort of "hidden law". All boys should be circumsiced.
- Chris
Btw, tattoos don't hurt really bad. It's like running a sharp pencil over your skin with a lot of pressure. It's the re-coloring that hurts sometimes.