I don't know what Abouna Matta El Meskeen has to do with Max Micheal because he disagreed with him completely. Besides, Personally i conside Fr. Matta El Meskeen a saint by all means. Fr. Matta had many chances to split the church at the time of Sadat and when HH pope Shenouda was imprisoned in the monestary. Some even say that Anwar El Sadat offered to make Fr. Matta as a new pope but he refused. I guess Max Michael and Fr. Matta are compeletely opposites, that is the only common thing between them.
[quote author=Zakhary link=topic=6212.msg82437#msg82437 date=1203442057] I don't know what Abouna Matta El Meskeen has to do with Max Micheal because he disagreed with him completely. Besides, Personally i conside Fr. Matta El Meskeen a saint by all means. Fr. Matta had many chances to split the church at the time of Sadat and when HH pope Shenouda was imprisoned in the monestary. Some even say that Anwar El Sadat offered to make Fr. Matta as a new pope but he refused. I guess Max Michael and Fr. Matta are compeletely opposites, that is the only common thing between them.
What are you talking about?? Abouna Matta el Meskeen wanted to excommunicate all american coptics from the church and pope shenouda said no. If Abouna Matta was pope, we would have had a split between the American Coptic church and the Coptic Church in Egypt. Plus, all american coptics would have been excommunicated.
As far as "the Christ Catholic Church International", I would like to see a link to the source.
I said in their eyes, they see themselves as real Orthodox and view others as heretical and corrupt. They see their movement as a way to repress the real Orthodox churches. Obviously not true, but that is what they think.
First of all, not "all Apostolic lineages are recognized," That's rubbish.
Does this mean that only St. Mark's ordinations are valid, and not St. Peter's? This needs elaboration.
My fault on the recognition of ordination; I realize now that we as Oriental Orthodox do not accept other ordinations. The source that I was reading from was not from our group, so that is that.
I don't know what Abouna Matta El Meskeen has to do with Max Micheal because he disagreed with him completely. Besides, Personally i conside Fr. Matta El Meskeen a saint by all means. Fr. Matta had many chances to split the church at the time of Sadat and when HH pope Shenouda was imprisoned in the monestary. Some even say that Anwar El Sadat offered to make Fr. Matta as a new pope but he refused. I guess Max Michael and Fr. Matta are compeletely opposites, that is the only common thing between them.
It is OK that Abouna Matta Al-Meskeen is your saint; everyone is free to believe in whatever he/she wants. But to tell us that he is a saint, that is ridiculous and out of touch of every Copts who loves the Coptic Church and HH Pope Shenouda. You are trying now to rewrite the history, but the fact is that Al-meskeen was the chief instigator against Pope Shenouda and conspired with Sadat against the Pope. If it were not of Al-Meeskeen, Pope Shenouda would not have been under house arrest in the monastery being stripped of his title as the pope chosen by the Holy Spirit and the Coptic Church, together with seven bishops and twelve priest jailed in high security governmental prison. I do not know how old are you but I am old enough to be contemporary to all those sorrowful incidents that encompassed the Coptic Church and her children. During that sad time, every day the Copts awoke in the morning to read, in the official news papers, new charges from Al-Meskeen against their beloved Pope. Both Sadat and Al-Meskeen befriended each other, for Sadat to have appeared not being against the Copts and the Pope; and for Al-Meskeen to appear that he is the spiritual leader of the Copts and to humiliate the Pope in front of the Egyptian people. It was a great miracle from the Almighty God that Sadat disappeared because everyone did not know what would be the solution for that problem. The problem for Al-Meskeen from the beginning was the rivalry between him and the Pope especially after HH Pope Shenouda was chosen to head the Coptic Church. He even wanted to be the Pope before the papacy of beloved Pope Kyrillos. The current debate has to do everything with Max Micheal because he was his disciple, the same as for some of the monks of St Abou Makaar Monastary.
I'm not taking any sides on this Fr. Matta argument, because there have been countless ones before - but there is no conclusive evidence that Fr. Matta conspired against the Pope with el-Sadat - if you have proof of a link then I would love to see it - the impression I was under was that Fr.Matta (who used to be Pope Shenouda's FOC) simply wrote some theological books that the Pope had to reply against, but I am not so sure about the political underlining you are referring to. Correct if i'm wrong.
Fr. Matta the poor was just a spiritual guide to Abouna Antonious Al-Syriany, later HH Pope Shenouda III, and not his F.O.C. He even wrote the introduction to the book “Life of prayer” by Fr. Matta, after that their relationship became a little strained over much criticism by HH over the writing of Abouna Matta. You can listen to the role of Abouna Matta before and after Sadat imprisoned HH and stripped him of his title as the Pope. The material is from the Coptic Orthodox Conference 2006- Fayoum, Egypt. The title of the lectures: 1- Wrong doctrine writing of Fr Matthew the poor by HE Bishop Bishoy 2- The shared line of teaching between Max Michael & Fr. Matta El-Meskeen by HE Bishop Bishoy
Incidentally, His Eminence [Bishoy], is a Metropolitan and not a Bishop. He is the Secretary of the Holy Synod, and one of the chief and eminent theologians of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82543#msg82543 date=1203548730] Incidentally, His Eminence [Bishoy], is a Metropolitan and not a Bishop. He is the Secretary of the Holy Synod, and one of the chief and eminent theologians of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
No. he is still a bishop. A metropolitan is just a bishop who reigns over a large area such as HE Bishop Abraham of Jerusalem of HE Bishop Pachomius of El Beheira.
Incidentally, His Eminence [Bishoy], is a Metropolitan and not a Bishop. He is the Secretary of the Holy Synod, and one of the chief and eminent theologians of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
That is why when HE speaks every Copt must listen and humble him/herself. Metropolitan Bishoy is the secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Church since 1985 till today.
The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. It is a specific title and protocol. That is all I was mentioning. It is proper to have protocol and decorum for his position and title. No different than any of us would be want to be properly addressed.
If one is a physician, they have earned the title: doctor. True, the person may also be: mister, miss, or misses, but dignity and protocol dictate the use of the proper: "Doctor".
As for His Eminence, Metropolitan Abraham of Jerusalem, he enjoys a special protocol as dictated by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III.
So, I would not think it appropriate to address His Holiness as 'Bishop Shenouda III'. I would not expect to attempt that on the theoretical basis or the proper conduct of a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
His Holiness in the mid-70's gave an amazing sermon on the evolution of the different terms for the episcopate. It is available from the parish in Queens, NY--St. Mary & St. Antonious Coptic Orthodox Church.
I do not know if you are a "miss" or a "misses", however, if you were a "miss" and someone called you "misses" that would put you in a situation of being out of the spector for "eligibility". And, if you were a "misses" and someone called you "miss", it would be an insult to your marital vows and sacrament. Naturally, this would be relative to familiarity. This would not include unfamiliar situations were introductory salutations are general.
Again, His Eminence, is deserving of the proper title that was granted to him by the Holy Spirit through the auspices of Pope Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St. Mark.
Protocol is important, it keeps things proper and civil.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82596#msg82596 date=1203602243] The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
+ It is right to call Pope Shenouda Anba (bishop) Shenouda. It's because a pope is a bishop. He is just higher in position. When a pope is ordained who was a bishop, it has different rites. (no dwelling of the holy spirit is involved) as he is a bishop and going to a higher rank of a bishop. I you get a monk and ordain him as pope, then u will need different rites. which will include the dwelling of the holy spirit. + Hey wait but we don't have a catholicos in our church however it is present in other oriental orthodox churches. We also don't have an archbishop or a patriarch because our pope is an archbishop, patriarch and pope at the same time. + Anyway, an archbishop is higher than a metropolitan. Because bishops and metropolitans are just like the same thing but only it is a tiny bit higher just like u see with priests who are priests then they become hegomens. + The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. That is the second highest rank in our church at present times. He doesn't have a spicific title as he still is a bishop (metropolitan in fact) but has another additional responsibility. Pray for me
Just because the Pope is the same priesthood rank as a bishop, doesn't make him a bishop- he is still the pope - that is his title. His full title is:
[glow=red,2,300]117th Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy Apostolic See of Saint Mark the Evangelist of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.[/glow]
By definition of his post he is the [glow=red,2,300]head of The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.[/glow]
he is of the same priesthood rank as a bishop, but correct definition is important.
Hi ilovesaintmark [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82715#msg82715 date=1203690557] BTW "Lost": "Anba" does not mean 'Bishop'.
How come. I always thought that anba was a title for a bishop. [center] I'm not denying anything or any title and don't take me with the wrong intention but...[/center] + We are all arguing about Clergy's correct titles, protocols and position. We are forgetting the main point here. Popes, Bishops, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, priests and all the other ranks are there and have these titles from God. They are much much more spiritual to bother about having the correct title. They simply don't care. To them they serve infront of God only and they have a responsibility to look after their flock. + Yes I can appreciate how we need to always have the correct title to address clergy but trustme, they take no offence at all if u get mixed up. + Patriarchs of Etheopia and Eritria have a title of Abouna. That doesn't mean that they are priests but that is a way to humble theirselves. + Let's face it. Whats going to make u a priest, bishop or a Pope. Is it some official title that is written down on a piece of paper or is it the holy spirit who grants these people blessing and gives them these gifts? [b]
[center] [b]Anyway back to Max Michel[/center]
I have a question, How can someone sell him clergy clothes like that? Howcome they decided to interview him? He has been completely ignored in Egypt now and even had his name changed to Max Michel.
I agree with everything you said. It is just my regard for a forum such as this that is exposed to the reach of the internet, that it is nice to bee inclusive of the correct titles for our hierachy. Not just from the respect factor, but the correctness for the "eyes" that review.
As for clerical garb, anyone can purchase what they want. It is even done by surrogates. At one time there people coming to the United States pretending to be priests. For a time the Patriarchate was doing a form of I.D. card, and sometimes introductory letters with the seal on it. As a general rule, to come to the United States, in an official regard, requires a letter from the Patriarchate. I do not know what the practice in the other countries of the Diaspora. Those priests who come without permission, are received in an unofficial manner and should not be allowed to carry out any duties unless there is an emergency.
I will give you a little story. I was in one of the liturgical stores in New York City to buy fabric for vestments. As I was waiting to be taken care of, there was a black woman in meager attire with a pile of fabric for vestments. The ones she was picking out were quite expensive and elaborate. To my surprise I saw her trying on a mitre (in the western style for a bishop). At that point I was confused as to what was going on. As she left, the salesperson wished her well (have a good day bishop). The woman was a self-proclaimed bishop in a church in Harlem--NYC. I questioned the salesperson afterwards, and his comment was: "if she has money we'll sell to her".
That is basically the situation even in Egypt, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82721#msg82721 date=1203694321] I agree with everything you said. It is just my regard for a forum such as this that is exposed to the reach of the internet, that it is nice to bee inclusive of the correct titles for our hierachy. Not just from the respect factor, but the correctness for the "eyes" that review.
As for clerical garb, anyone can purchase what they want. It is even done by surrogates. At one time there people coming to the United States pretending to be priests. For a time the Patriarchate was doing a form of I.D. card, and sometimes introductory letters with the seal on it. As a general rule, to come to the United States, in an official regard, requires a letter from the Patriarchate. I do not know what the practice in the other countries of the Diaspora. Those priests who come without permission, are received in an unofficial manner and should not be allowed to carry out any duties unless there is an emergency.
I will give you a little story. I was in one of the liturgical stores in New York City to buy fabric for vestments. As I was waiting to be taken care of, there was a black woman in meager attire with a pile of fabric for vestments. The ones she was picking out were quite expensive and elaborate. To my surprise I saw her trying on a mitre (in the western style for a bishop). At that point I was confused as to what was going on. As she left, the salesperson wished her well (have a good day bishop). The woman was a self-proclaimed bishop in a church in Harlem--NYC. I questioned the salesperson afterwards, and his comment was: "if she has money we'll sell to her".
That is basically the situation even in Egypt, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82726#msg82726 date=1203695912] No they did not. They have since closed down. There is a place on 39th st in NYC, called La Lame that does.
[quote author=Lost link=topic=6212.msg82707#msg82707 date=1203680081] [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82596#msg82596 date=1203602243] The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
+ It is right to call Pope Shenouda Anba (bishop) Shenouda. It's because a pope is a bishop. He is just higher in position. When a pope is ordained who was a bishop, it has different rites. (no dwelling of the holy spirit is involved) as he is a bishop and going to a higher rank of a bishop. I you get a monk and ordain him as pope, then u will need different rites. which will include the dwelling of the holy spirit. + Hey wait but we don't have a catholicos in our church however it is present in other oriental orthodox churches. We also don't have an archbishop or a patriarch because our pope is an archbishop, patriarch and pope at the same time. + Anyway, an archbishop is higher than a metropolitan. Because bishops and metropolitans are just like the same thing but only it is a tiny bit higher just like u see with priests who are priests then they become hegomens. + The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. That is the second highest rank in our church at present times. He doesn't have a spicific title as he still is a bishop (metropolitan in fact) but has another additional responsibility. Pray for me
catholicos pope patriarch
these three terms mean the same thing. Metropolitan is a position set above archbishop which all of the orthodox churches including the copts have. different terms are used when you go from church to church. the copts and catholics call their patriarch "pope". the armenians and greeks call their patriarch "catholicos". many others call their patriarch "patriarch". Patriarchs hold so much more than the authority of an archbishop.
how can you belittle the rank of the pope and merely call him an bishop? you are totally discrediting all of the works he has done for the church since he became pope by calling him just a bishop. he didn't accomplish all of these things as a bishop but as a pope in the coptic church. it's like going to a CEO or boss of a company and calling them by their lower title from when they were a desk employee. it's insulting. it's disregarding all of a person's accomplishments since then up until now
[quote author=gigglyshy link=topic=6212.msg82820#msg82820 date=1203836754] how can you belittle the rank of the pope and merely call him an bishop? you are totally discrediting all of the works he has done for the church since he became pope by calling him just a bishop.
[glow=red,2,300]I repeate, I am not belittling the rank of a pope.[/glow] Anyway I wasn't saying that he is a bishop like all others and doesn't deserve his papacy (as you are applying that I have said in your post). I simply said that a pope is in the same priesthood rank as bishops, metropolitans and archbishops therfore in orgin he is a bishop. I'll try and explain. + Say that there is a guy. He is ordained as a psaltos. He is a deacon. One has been ordained as an oghonostos. He is still a deacon. One has been ordained as a Sub-deacon. He is still a deacon. One has been ordained as a full-deacon. He is still a deacon. And only one has been ordained as Arch-deacon. Is he still a deacon or not. In this case we are not belittling the arch-deacon by stating that he is a deacon. Yes they all have differen't roles and different fuctions in the church but they are still deacons. [Evenmore an arch-deacon is allowed to give the communion (the blood only) to help abouna if he is on his own and no other priest is around.] + We can call all the previous deacons because they are of the same 'priesthood rank' which extends from a psaltos to an Arch-deacon. All of them in origin are deacons. Let me tell you a story in the history of the church. + In the middle ages, one of our popes went to visit a diocese in egypts somewhere. They bishop of that area was very late so the pope began the liturgy. He got to about the the prayer of blessing of the Qorban [(Agios onwards) which is the holiest part of the liturgy] when the bishop entered as he was very delayed. The bishop came in very angrily and started to shout at the pope about how can he dare to enter his diocese and pray there without the bishop being present. He then took the Qurban, ripped it up and stood on it. Why he said and was written that a pope wouldn't enter another diocese without permission of that areas bishop as a pope was a bishop who was ordained to a higher rank. The pope always had his own 'diocese' which is alexandria and now it's cairo also. That is why you don't get a bishop for Alexandria or cairo because the pope is their 'bishop-Pope to be precise' I again repeate: [glow=red,2,300]I am not saying that a pope can't go anywhere else or belittling the rank of a pope[/glow] but that was what happened in the history of the church.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The point is many people think that I am saying that a pope is just a mere bishop. Nowhere in my posts have I mentioned this. These are just baised on a few incredibly biased assupmtions and maybe due to me mis-wording what I mean. I am not discrediting the role of a pope or what he has accomplished (especially pope Shenouda) as you think I am doing. Moreover I have noticed that many of you care very very very much about crediting a pope. I personally care about this very much but we need to know that these people are very very spiritual. They don't need earthly credit, but they only look to the heavenly credit that surpasses all minds. [glow=red,2,300]I repeat again I am not saying that we shouldn't give popes credit[/glow]but this is somthing that we need to keep in mind (that they are much more spiritual than you could ever imagine). + I hope that you all understand what I am saying and take the time to read it.
+ If anybody needs more clarifications or wants to discuus this issue, they can post me as I feel that this topic isn't the most suitable place for this discussion. ======================================================================================== Back to Max Michel Apparently in the 20's somthing like him happened. A priest who was a hegomen named sergious who was famous got carried away with pride so he decided to split as well. Nothing happened. He was like Max Michel but after he departed he was forgotten. Now 88 years later and we hardly hear of him. Lets hope that it doesn't end like this for max but for him to repent. Pray for me
They bishop of that area was very late so the pope began the liturgy. He got to about the the prayer of blessing of the Qorban [(Agios onwards) which is the holiest part of the liturgy] when the bishop entered as he was very delayed. The bishop came in very angrily and started to shout at the pope about how can he dare to enter his diocese and pray there without the bishop being present. He then took the Qurban, ripped it up and stood on it. Why he said and was written that a pope wouldn't enter another diocese without permission of that areas bishop as a pope was a bishop who was ordained to a higher rank.
This is scandalous. I do not want any clarification. BUT I do insist on asking you to state here the historical references for your stories.
Back to Max Michel
Do you really mean this??? Another story? References please.
[quote author=Lost link=topic=6212.msg82707#msg82707 date=1203680081] [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82596#msg82596 date=1203602243] The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
+ It is right to call Pope Shenouda Anba (bishop) Shenouda. It's because a pope is a bishop. He is just higher in position. When a pope is ordained who was a bishop, it has different rites. (no dwelling of the holy spirit is involved) as he is a bishop and going to a higher rank of a bishop. I you get a monk and ordain him as pope, then u will need different rites. which will include the dwelling of the holy spirit. + Hey wait but we don't have a catholicos in our church however it is present in other oriental orthodox churches. We also don't have an archbishop or a patriarch because our pope is an archbishop, patriarch and pope at the same time. + Anyway, an archbishop is higher than a metropolitan. Because bishops and metropolitans are just like the same thing but only it is a tiny bit higher just like u see with priests who are priests then they become hegomens. + The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. That is the second highest rank in our church at present times. He doesn't have a spicific title as he still is a bishop (metropolitan in fact) but has another additional responsibility. Pray for me
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6212.msg82708#msg82708 date=1203680985] Just because the Pope is the same priesthood rank as a bishop, doesn't make him a bishop- he is still the pope - that is his title. His full title is: [glow=red,2,300]117th Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy Apostolic See of Saint Mark the Evangelist of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.[/glow] By definition of his post he is the [glow=red,2,300]head of The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.[/glow] he is of the same priesthood rank as a bishop, but correct definition is important.
It’s weird how NO ONE provided the real meaning of the word “Pope” the word was given to the Archbishop of Alexandria of the fact that he lead all the archbishops of the other Churches, referring to all before the split when there was One holy Church of God. So since than, the name kept on going even though its meaning died. Because the true meaning of the word is “The head of the brothers.” Brothers meaning the other archbishops of the other churches. He is no higher in rank, but he is their head, being equal to an older brother. So the proper full title for him is Archbishop, being the Archbishop of our Bishops in the COC. We say Papa in Arabic and actually recently in English, taken from the word [Coptic]papa[/Coptic]. +++++++ [quote author=Lost link=topic=6212.msg82719#msg82719 date=1203692598] Hi ilovesaintmark [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82715#msg82715 date=1203690557] BTW "Lost": "Anba" does not mean 'Bishop'.
How come. I always thought that anba was a title for a bishop.
The word Anba goes back to the word Abba from the Coptic, just means father.
They bishop of that area was very late so the pope began the liturgy. He got to about the the prayer of blessing of the Qorban [(Agios onwards) which is the holiest part of the liturgy] when the bishop entered as he was very delayed. The bishop came in very angrily and started to shout at the pope about how can he dare to enter his diocese and pray there without the bishop being present. He then took the Qurban, ripped it up and stood on it. Why he said and was written that a pope wouldn't enter another diocese without permission of that areas bishop as a pope was a bishop who was ordained to a higher rank.
It’s weird how NO ONE provided the real meaning of the word “Pope” the word was given to the Archbishop of Alexandria of the fact that he lead all the archbishops of the other Churches, referring to all before the split when there was One holy Church of God.
I was not aware that any Council had ever granted the Bishop of Alexandria (aka, Archbishop of Alexandria, Pope of Alexandria) a primacy over other Churches. If I am understanding your use of the "Church" with a capital "C" as inclusive of other jurisdictions, e.g., Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, etc.
I am not aware of any time in history that the Supreme Authority of the Coptic Orthodox Church tried to install himself with primacy over other national jurisdictions (outside of his own see).
It is founded in history that the Coptic Pope enjoyed a protocol in the east for the cummulative efforts of the Coptic Church in the foundation of Christian Theology and Dogma. There are some who have sat on the Throne of St. Mark that are universally accepted because of their giant contributions.
The Coptic Popes have been leaders at the initial Three Ecumenical Councils, but at no time did they try to make unilateral decisions or impose anyh thoughts of infallibility on the rest of Christendom.
The Coptic Popes are given respect for their special role in history. Pope Shenouda because of his amazing erudition, and glorious example has earned the respect of the international community, not because of some proclamation but through his amazing being that was given to Our Coptic Church by God the Almighty. We pray for him, and I repeat, I am disappointed when the Litany for the Pope and the Hierarchs is rushed are is incomplete.
It’s weird how NO ONE provided the real meaning of the word “Pope” the word was given to the Archbishop of Alexandria of the fact that he lead all the archbishops of the other Churches, referring to all before the split when there was One holy Church of God.
I was not aware that any Council had ever granted the Bishop of Alexandria (aka, Archbishop of Alexandria, Pope of Alexandria) a primacy over other Churches. If I am understanding your use of the "Church" with a capital "C" as inclusive of other jurisdictions, e.g., Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, etc.
I am not aware of any time in history that the Supreme Authority of the Coptic Orthodox Church tried to install himself with primacy over other national jurisdictions (outside of his own see).
It is founded in history that the Coptic Pope enjoyed a protocol in the east for the cummulative efforts of the Coptic Church in the foundation of Christian Theology and Dogma. There are some who have sat on the Throne of St. Mark that are universally accepted because of their giant contributions.
The Coptic Popes have been leaders at the initial Three Ecumenical Councils, but at no time did they try to make unilateral decisions or impose anyh thoughts of infallibility on the rest of Christendom.
The Coptic Popes are given respect for their special role in history. Pope Shenouda because of his amazing erudition, and glorious example has earned the respect of the international community, not because of some proclamation but through his amazing being that was given to Our Coptic Church by God the Almighty. We pray for him, and I repeat, I am disappointed when the Litany for the Pope and the Hierarchs is rushed are is incomplete.
will that's the problem in understanding this. he didn't have "full control" over the churches but rather their leader. you can see that in the 3 councils that we all know about.
I'll et you the exact reference. It was one of the St.Gregorys who started the term "Pope"....
The Coptic Popes enjoyed a prestige and protocol, yet there was nothing official (not by title, precedence, inference, or declaration. Simply a recognition of the amazing conduct, example, and leadership. They conducted themselves in a fraternal fashion, not an imperial fashion.
The title of "pope" was first used in Egypt in the second century as it related to Heracles, the reigning successor of St. Mark. This title was granted him to differentiate him from the other bishops in the locale. It was granted to him lovingly by those bishops and not a forceful declaration by him. Iris Habib El-Masry makes reference in her book: "The Story of the Copts". I believe Dr. Aziz Atiya makes the same reference in his book: "The History of Eastern Christianity".
The use of the term 'pope' by St. Gregory, is for us, a historical point to identify that it was a known term and specific to the Bishop of Alexandria (aka, Archbishop of Alexandria), and in that regard was not being used contemporary to the Bishop of Rome (aka, Archbishop of Rome).
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg83050#msg83050 date=1204129230] The use of the term 'pope' by St. Gregory, is for us, a historical point to identify that it was a known term and specific to the Bishop of Alexandria (aka, Archbishop of Alexandria), and in that regard was not being used contemporary to the Bishop of Rome (aka, Archbishop of Rome).
why do you say "AKA" they are in fact "Archbishops". if you deny that, than you're denying them being there and their responsibility. Yes they are 'Bishops' but archbishops because they are leading the bishops of a specific Church.
I use 'aka', because depending on which reference you use, and in what historical period the terms are used. Also relative to whose prespective on history (eastern vs western) they use different titles. The Pope of Alexandria is also known as the Bishop of Alexandria, and Archbishop of Alexandria--relative to the text that you pick up.
My use of 'aka' is to be inclusive of all of the above.
The word pope comes from the word "Papa" meaning father. Origionally in the Coptic Church that word was not used at all, but after the 13th pope of the Church pope Ierakulas (Herakulas) became like a "father to the Bishops and the congregation" they called him that and thereafter all the following popes.
But I think that term we got from the Roman Catholic chruch, but i am not sure.
So anyway, I was wondering, what happened to Max Michael now after he lost the case and can not be legally called a leader of the Copts and has not power on them in Egypt? Did he go somewhere else?
Comments
I don't know what Abouna Matta El Meskeen has to do with Max Micheal because he disagreed with him completely. Besides, Personally i conside Fr. Matta El Meskeen a saint by all means. Fr. Matta had many chances to split the church at the time of Sadat and when HH pope Shenouda was imprisoned in the monestary. Some even say that Anwar El Sadat offered to make Fr. Matta as a new pope but he refused. I guess Max Michael and Fr. Matta are compeletely opposites, that is the only common thing between them.
What are you talking about?? Abouna Matta el Meskeen wanted to excommunicate all american coptics from the church and pope shenouda said no. If Abouna Matta was pope, we would have had a split between the American Coptic church and the Coptic Church in Egypt. Plus, all american coptics would have been excommunicated.
As far as "the Christ Catholic Church International", I would like to see a link to the source.
I said in their eyes, they see themselves as real Orthodox and view others as heretical and corrupt. They see their movement as a way to repress the real Orthodox churches. Obviously not true, but that is what they think.
And I am a bit puzzled by this: Does this mean that only St. Mark's ordinations are valid, and not St. Peter's? This needs elaboration.
My fault on the recognition of ordination; I realize now that we as Oriental Orthodox do not accept other ordinations. The source that I was reading from was not from our group, so that is that.
The current debate has to do everything with Max Micheal because he was his disciple, the same as for some of the monks of St Abou Makaar Monastary.
I'm not taking any sides on this Fr. Matta argument, because there have been countless ones before - but there is no conclusive evidence that Fr. Matta conspired against the Pope with el-Sadat - if you have proof of a link then I would love to see it - the impression I was under was that Fr.Matta (who used to be Pope Shenouda's FOC) simply wrote some theological books that the Pope had to reply against, but I am not so sure about the political underlining you are referring to. Correct if i'm wrong.
joe
Fr. Matta the poor was just a spiritual guide to Abouna Antonious Al-Syriany, later HH Pope Shenouda III, and not his F.O.C. He even wrote the introduction to the book “Life of prayer” by Fr. Matta, after that their relationship became a little strained over much criticism by HH over the writing of Abouna Matta.
You can listen to the role of Abouna Matta before and after Sadat imprisoned HH and stripped him of his title as the Pope. The material is from the Coptic Orthodox Conference 2006- Fayoum, Egypt. The title of the lectures:
1- Wrong doctrine writing of Fr Matthew the poor by HE Bishop Bishoy
2- The shared line of teaching between Max Michael & Fr. Matta El-Meskeen by HE Bishop Bishoy
http://st-takla.org/Multimedia/04-Sermons/001-Coptic-3ezat/Coptic-Orthodox-Meeting-2006-Fayoum-Egypt-01.html
Be patient, download and listen to all the lectures.
Incidentally, His Eminence [Bishoy], is a Metropolitan and not a Bishop. He is the Secretary of the Holy Synod, and one of the chief and eminent theologians of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
No. he is still a bishop. A metropolitan is just a bishop who reigns over a large area such as HE Bishop Abraham of Jerusalem of HE Bishop Pachomius of El Beheira.
The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. It is a specific title and protocol. That is all I was mentioning. It is proper to have protocol and decorum for his position and title. No different than any of us would be want to be properly addressed.
If one is a physician, they have earned the title: doctor. True, the person may also be: mister, miss, or misses, but dignity and protocol dictate the use of the proper: "Doctor".
As for His Eminence, Metropolitan Abraham of Jerusalem, he enjoys a special protocol as dictated by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III.
So, I would not think it appropriate to address His Holiness as 'Bishop Shenouda III'. I would not expect to attempt that on the theoretical basis or the proper conduct of a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
His Holiness in the mid-70's gave an amazing sermon on the evolution of the different terms for the episcopate. It is available from the parish in Queens, NY--St. Mary & St. Antonious Coptic Orthodox Church.
I do not know if you are a "miss" or a "misses", however, if you were a "miss" and someone called you "misses" that would put you in a situation of being out of the spector for "eligibility". And, if you were a "misses" and someone called you "miss", it would be an insult to your marital vows and sacrament. Naturally, this would be relative to familiarity. This would not include unfamiliar situations were introductory salutations are general.
Again, His Eminence, is deserving of the proper title that was granted to him by the Holy Spirit through the auspices of Pope Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St. Mark.
Protocol is important, it keeps things proper and civil.
Happy Passover of Jonah (Nineveh).
The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
+ It is right to call Pope Shenouda Anba (bishop) Shenouda. It's because a pope is a bishop. He is just higher in position. When a pope is ordained who was a bishop, it has different rites. (no dwelling of the holy spirit is involved) as he is a bishop and going to a higher rank of a bishop. I you get a monk and ordain him as pope, then u will need different rites. which will include the dwelling of the holy spirit.
+ Hey wait but we don't have a catholicos in our church however it is present in other oriental orthodox churches. We also don't have an archbishop or a patriarch because our pope is an archbishop, patriarch and pope at the same time.
+ Anyway, an archbishop is higher than a metropolitan. Because bishops and metropolitans are just like the same thing but only it is a tiny bit higher just like u see with priests who are priests then they become hegomens.
+ The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. That is the second highest rank in our church at present times. He doesn't have a spicific title as he still is a bishop (metropolitan in fact) but has another additional responsibility.
Pray for me
[glow=red,2,300]117th Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy Apostolic See of Saint Mark the Evangelist of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.[/glow]
By definition of his post he is the [glow=red,2,300]head of The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.[/glow]
he is of the same priesthood rank as a bishop, but correct definition is important.
It goes to show that the previous post (from Lost) did not read my full post.
It's snowing in the Northeast. When is Spring.
BTW "Lost": "Anba" does not mean 'Bishop'.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82715#msg82715 date=1203690557]
BTW "Lost": "Anba" does not mean 'Bishop'.
How come. I always thought that anba was a title for a bishop.
[center] I'm not denying anything or any title and don't take me with the wrong intention but...[/center]
+ We are all arguing about Clergy's correct titles, protocols and position. We are forgetting the main point here. Popes, Bishops, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, priests and all the other ranks are there and have these titles from God. They are much much more spiritual to bother about having the correct title. They simply don't care. To them they serve infront of God only and they have a responsibility to look after their flock.
+ Yes I can appreciate how we need to always have the correct title to address clergy but trustme, they take no offence at all if u get mixed up.
+ Patriarchs of Etheopia and Eritria have a title of Abouna. That doesn't mean that they are priests but that is a way to humble theirselves.
+ Let's face it. Whats going to make u a priest, bishop or a Pope. Is it some official title that is written down on a piece of paper or is it the holy spirit who grants these people blessing and gives them these gifts? [b]
[center] [b]Anyway back to Max Michel[/center]
I have a question, How can someone sell him clergy clothes like that?
Howcome they decided to interview him? He has been completely ignored in Egypt now and even had his name changed to Max Michel.
As for clerical garb, anyone can purchase what they want. It is even done by surrogates. At one time there people coming to the United States pretending to be priests. For a time the Patriarchate was doing a form of I.D. card, and sometimes introductory letters with the seal on it. As a general rule, to come to the United States, in an official regard, requires a letter from the Patriarchate. I do not know what the practice in the other countries of the Diaspora. Those priests who come without permission, are received in an unofficial manner and should not be allowed to carry out any duties unless there is an emergency.
I will give you a little story. I was in one of the liturgical stores in New York City to buy fabric for vestments. As I was waiting to be taken care of, there was a black woman in meager attire with a pile of fabric for vestments. The ones she was picking out were quite expensive and elaborate. To my surprise I saw her trying on a mitre (in the western style for a bishop). At that point I was confused as to what was going on. As she left, the salesperson wished her well (have a good day bishop). The woman was a self-proclaimed bishop in a church in Harlem--NYC. I questioned the salesperson afterwards, and his comment was: "if she has money we'll sell to her".
That is basically the situation even in Egypt, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
I agree with everything you said. It is just my regard for a forum such as this that is exposed to the reach of the internet, that it is nice to bee inclusive of the correct titles for our hierachy. Not just from the respect factor, but the correctness for the "eyes" that review.
As for clerical garb, anyone can purchase what they want. It is even done by surrogates. At one time there people coming to the United States pretending to be priests. For a time the Patriarchate was doing a form of I.D. card, and sometimes introductory letters with the seal on it. As a general rule, to come to the United States, in an official regard, requires a letter from the Patriarchate. I do not know what the practice in the other countries of the Diaspora. Those priests who come without permission, are received in an unofficial manner and should not be allowed to carry out any duties unless there is an emergency.
I will give you a little story. I was in one of the liturgical stores in New York City to buy fabric for vestments. As I was waiting to be taken care of, there was a black woman in meager attire with a pile of fabric for vestments. The ones she was picking out were quite expensive and elaborate. To my surprise I saw her trying on a mitre (in the western style for a bishop). At that point I was confused as to what was going on. As she left, the salesperson wished her well (have a good day bishop). The woman was a self-proclaimed bishop in a church in Harlem--NYC. I questioned the salesperson afterwards, and his comment was: "if she has money we'll sell to her".
That is basically the situation even in Egypt, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
I liked that story, made me laugh ;D
Did they sell eastern mitres there, by the way?
No they did not. They have since closed down. There is a place on 39th st in NYC, called La Lame that does.
Interesting, thanks.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82596#msg82596 date=1203602243]
The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
+ It is right to call Pope Shenouda Anba (bishop) Shenouda. It's because a pope is a bishop. He is just higher in position. When a pope is ordained who was a bishop, it has different rites. (no dwelling of the holy spirit is involved) as he is a bishop and going to a higher rank of a bishop. I you get a monk and ordain him as pope, then u will need different rites. which will include the dwelling of the holy spirit.
+ Hey wait but we don't have a catholicos in our church however it is present in other oriental orthodox churches. We also don't have an archbishop or a patriarch because our pope is an archbishop, patriarch and pope at the same time.
+ Anyway, an archbishop is higher than a metropolitan. Because bishops and metropolitans are just like the same thing but only it is a tiny bit higher just like u see with priests who are priests then they become hegomens.
+ The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. That is the second highest rank in our church at present times. He doesn't have a spicific title as he still is a bishop (metropolitan in fact) but has another additional responsibility.
Pray for me
catholicos
pope
patriarch
these three terms mean the same thing. Metropolitan is a position set above archbishop which all of the orthodox churches including the copts have. different terms are used when you go from church to church. the copts and catholics call their patriarch "pope". the armenians and greeks call their patriarch "catholicos". many others call their patriarch "patriarch". Patriarchs hold so much more than the authority of an archbishop.
how can you belittle the rank of the pope and merely call him an bishop? you are totally discrediting all of the works he has done for the church since he became pope by calling him just a bishop. he didn't accomplish all of these things as a bishop but as a pope in the coptic church. it's like going to a CEO or boss of a company and calling them by their lower title from when they were a desk employee. it's insulting. it's disregarding all of a person's accomplishments since then up until now
how can you belittle the rank of the pope and merely call him an bishop? you are totally discrediting all of the works he has done for the church since he became pope by calling him just a bishop.
[glow=red,2,300]I repeate, I am not belittling the rank of a pope.[/glow] Anyway I wasn't saying that he is a bishop like all others and doesn't deserve his papacy (as you are applying that I have said in your post). I simply said that a pope is in the same priesthood rank as bishops, metropolitans and archbishops therfore in orgin he is a bishop.
I'll try and explain.
+ Say that there is a guy. He is ordained as a psaltos. He is a deacon. One has been ordained as an oghonostos. He is still a deacon. One has been ordained as a Sub-deacon. He is still a deacon. One has been ordained as a full-deacon. He is still a deacon. And only one has been ordained as Arch-deacon. Is he still a deacon or not.
In this case we are not belittling the arch-deacon by stating that he is a deacon. Yes they all have differen't roles and different fuctions in the church but they are still deacons. [Evenmore an arch-deacon is allowed to give the communion (the blood only) to help abouna if he is on his own and no other priest is around.]
+ We can call all the previous deacons because they are of the same 'priesthood rank' which extends from a psaltos to an Arch-deacon. All of them in origin are deacons.
Let me tell you a story in the history of the church.
+ In the middle ages, one of our popes went to visit a diocese in egypts somewhere. They bishop of that area was very late so the pope began the liturgy. He got to about the the prayer of blessing of the Qorban [(Agios onwards) which is the holiest part of the liturgy] when the bishop entered as he was very delayed. The bishop came in very angrily and started to shout at the pope about how can he dare to enter his diocese and pray there without the bishop being present. He then took the Qurban, ripped it up and stood on it. Why he said and was written that a pope wouldn't enter another diocese without permission of that areas bishop as a pope was a bishop who was ordained to a higher rank. The pope always had his own 'diocese' which is alexandria and now it's cairo also. That is why you don't get a bishop for Alexandria or cairo because the pope is their 'bishop-Pope to be precise' I again repeate: [glow=red,2,300]I am not saying that a pope can't go anywhere else or belittling the rank of a pope[/glow] but that was what happened in the history of the church.
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The point is many people think that I am saying that a pope is just a mere bishop. Nowhere in my posts have I mentioned this. These are just baised on a few incredibly biased assupmtions and maybe due to me mis-wording what I mean. I am not discrediting the role of a pope or what he has accomplished (especially pope Shenouda) as you think I am doing. Moreover I have noticed that many of you care very very very much about crediting a pope. I personally care about this very much but we need to know that these people are very very spiritual. They don't need earthly credit, but they only look to the heavenly credit that surpasses all minds. [glow=red,2,300]I repeat again I am not saying that we shouldn't give popes credit[/glow]but this is somthing that we need to keep in mind (that they are much more spiritual than you could ever imagine).
+ I hope that you all understand what I am saying and take the time to read it.
+ If anybody needs more clarifications or wants to discuus this issue, they can post me as I feel that this topic isn't the most suitable place for this discussion.
========================================================================================
Back to Max Michel
Apparently in the 20's somthing like him happened. A priest who was a hegomen named sergious who was famous got carried away with pride so he decided to split as well. Nothing happened. He was like Max Michel but after he departed he was forgotten. Now 88 years later and we hardly hear of him. Lets hope that it doesn't end like this for max but for him to repent.
Pray for me
This is scandalous. I do not want any clarification. BUT I do insist on asking you to state here the historical references for your stories. Do you really mean this???
Another story? References please.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82596#msg82596 date=1203602243]
The episcopal rank is broken up into the following: bishop, archbishop, metropolitan, patriarch, catholicos, and pope.
+ It is right to call Pope Shenouda Anba (bishop) Shenouda. It's because a pope is a bishop. He is just higher in position. When a pope is ordained who was a bishop, it has different rites. (no dwelling of the holy spirit is involved) as he is a bishop and going to a higher rank of a bishop. I you get a monk and ordain him as pope, then u will need different rites. which will include the dwelling of the holy spirit.
+ Hey wait but we don't have a catholicos in our church however it is present in other oriental orthodox churches. We also don't have an archbishop or a patriarch because our pope is an archbishop, patriarch and pope at the same time.
+ Anyway, an archbishop is higher than a metropolitan. Because bishops and metropolitans are just like the same thing but only it is a tiny bit higher just like u see with priests who are priests then they become hegomens.
+ The Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church, is His Eminence, Metropolitan Bishoy. That is the second highest rank in our church at present times. He doesn't have a spicific title as he still is a bishop (metropolitan in fact) but has another additional responsibility.
Pray for me
[quote author=josephgabriel link=topic=6212.msg82708#msg82708 date=1203680985]
Just because the Pope is the same priesthood rank as a bishop, doesn't make him a bishop- he is still the pope - that is his title. His full title is:
[glow=red,2,300]117th Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of All Africa on the Holy Apostolic See of Saint Mark the Evangelist of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria.[/glow]
By definition of his post he is the [glow=red,2,300]head of The Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.[/glow]
he is of the same priesthood rank as a bishop, but correct definition is important.
It’s weird how NO ONE provided the real meaning of the word “Pope” the word was given to the Archbishop of Alexandria of the fact that he lead all the archbishops of the other Churches, referring to all before the split when there was One holy Church of God. So since than, the name kept on going even though its meaning died. Because the true meaning of the word is “The head of the brothers.” Brothers meaning the other archbishops of the other churches. He is no higher in rank, but he is their head, being equal to an older brother.
So the proper full title for him is Archbishop, being the Archbishop of our Bishops in the COC. We say Papa in Arabic and actually recently in English, taken from the word [Coptic]papa[/Coptic].
+++++++
[quote author=Lost link=topic=6212.msg82719#msg82719 date=1203692598]
Hi ilovesaintmark
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6212.msg82715#msg82715 date=1203690557]
BTW "Lost": "Anba" does not mean 'Bishop'.
How come. I always thought that anba was a title for a bishop.
The word Anba goes back to the word Abba from the Coptic, just means father.
+++++++
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6212.msg82889#msg82889 date=1203971082]
I would love a reference to.
I am not aware of any time in history that the Supreme Authority of the Coptic Orthodox Church tried to install himself with primacy over other national jurisdictions (outside of his own see).
It is founded in history that the Coptic Pope enjoyed a protocol in the east for the cummulative efforts of the Coptic Church in the foundation of Christian Theology and Dogma. There are some who have sat on the Throne of St. Mark that are universally accepted because of their giant contributions.
The Coptic Popes have been leaders at the initial Three Ecumenical Councils, but at no time did they try to make unilateral decisions or impose anyh thoughts of infallibility on the rest of Christendom.
The Coptic Popes are given respect for their special role in history. Pope Shenouda because of his amazing erudition, and glorious example has earned the respect of the international community, not because of some proclamation but through his amazing being that was given to Our Coptic Church by God the Almighty. We pray for him, and I repeat, I am disappointed when the Litany for the Pope and the Hierarchs is rushed are is incomplete.
I am not aware of any time in history that the Supreme Authority of the Coptic Orthodox Church tried to install himself with primacy over other national jurisdictions (outside of his own see).
It is founded in history that the Coptic Pope enjoyed a protocol in the east for the cummulative efforts of the Coptic Church in the foundation of Christian Theology and Dogma. There are some who have sat on the Throne of St. Mark that are universally accepted because of their giant contributions.
The Coptic Popes have been leaders at the initial Three Ecumenical Councils, but at no time did they try to make unilateral decisions or impose anyh thoughts of infallibility on the rest of Christendom.
The Coptic Popes are given respect for their special role in history. Pope Shenouda because of his amazing erudition, and glorious example has earned the respect of the international community, not because of some proclamation but through his amazing being that was given to Our Coptic Church by God the Almighty. We pray for him, and I repeat, I am disappointed when the Litany for the Pope and the Hierarchs is rushed are is incomplete.
will that's the problem in understanding this. he didn't have "full control" over the churches but rather their leader. you can see that in the 3 councils that we all know about.
I'll et you the exact reference. It was one of the St.Gregorys who started the term "Pope"....
The title of "pope" was first used in Egypt in the second century as it related to Heracles, the reigning successor of St. Mark. This title was granted him to differentiate him from the other bishops in the locale. It was granted to him lovingly by those bishops and not a forceful declaration by him. Iris Habib El-Masry makes reference in her book: "The Story of the Copts". I believe Dr. Aziz Atiya makes the same reference in his book: "The History of Eastern Christianity".
The use of the term 'pope' by St. Gregory, is for us, a historical point to identify that it was a known term and specific to the Bishop of Alexandria (aka, Archbishop of Alexandria), and in that regard was not being used contemporary to the Bishop of Rome (aka, Archbishop of Rome).
The use of the term 'pope' by St. Gregory, is for us, a historical point to identify that it was a known term and specific to the Bishop of Alexandria (aka, Archbishop of Alexandria), and in that regard was not being used contemporary to the Bishop of Rome (aka, Archbishop of Rome).
why do you say "AKA" they are in fact "Archbishops". if you deny that, than you're denying them being there and their responsibility. Yes they are 'Bishops' but archbishops because they are leading the bishops of a specific Church.
My use of 'aka' is to be inclusive of all of the above.
But I think that term we got from the Roman Catholic chruch, but i am not sure.
So anyway, I was wondering, what happened to Max Michael now after he lost the case and can not be legally called a leader of the Copts and has not power on them in Egypt?
Did he go somewhere else?