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Is Christianity Weak?
I was just thinking, as a Christian, we have to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, love those that persecute us etc. What exactly do we gain from all this? As Christians? Isn't this coming across as a bit weak?
Its hardcoded in the quran to subdue the infidels and treat them badly.
Its hardcoded in the Bible to be subdued and be treated badly.
Christianity was made for Islam, and Islam was made for Christianity. Wasn't it?
Muslims love to slap us, and we love being slapped. Its a win-win situation.
Also Christ says : "Blessed are you when you are persecuted for my Name's Sake".
That's great, so we even get a blessing after having been humiliated.
Where exactly are our rights in any of this?? I mean.. i'm all for religious freedom etc, and if someone wants to be a muslim, good for them - but why should I have to suffer if someone believes or thinks he/she has literally the "God-Given-Right" to slap me or subdue me?
Should Coptic Christians have fought against the muslim invation 1400 years ago??
A lot of people ask me: why are you complaining about Islam for? You just stood by and allowed muslims to not only take over your country, but humiliate you as dhimmis.
I usually say : "well, if a copt wants to embrace islam, its his choice... what can we do? Christianity is not a political system. Its a relationship with Christ. We don't believe in violence".
So, at what point is war OK? At what point should Copts be allowed to fight back??
Its hardcoded in the quran to subdue the infidels and treat them badly.
Its hardcoded in the Bible to be subdued and be treated badly.
Christianity was made for Islam, and Islam was made for Christianity. Wasn't it?
Muslims love to slap us, and we love being slapped. Its a win-win situation.
Also Christ says : "Blessed are you when you are persecuted for my Name's Sake".
That's great, so we even get a blessing after having been humiliated.
Where exactly are our rights in any of this?? I mean.. i'm all for religious freedom etc, and if someone wants to be a muslim, good for them - but why should I have to suffer if someone believes or thinks he/she has literally the "God-Given-Right" to slap me or subdue me?
Should Coptic Christians have fought against the muslim invation 1400 years ago??
A lot of people ask me: why are you complaining about Islam for? You just stood by and allowed muslims to not only take over your country, but humiliate you as dhimmis.
I usually say : "well, if a copt wants to embrace islam, its his choice... what can we do? Christianity is not a political system. Its a relationship with Christ. We don't believe in violence".
So, at what point is war OK? At what point should Copts be allowed to fight back??
Comments
The story goes something like there was a wealthy merchant who wanted to have power so he used a lot of the simmering sentiment in Egypt to fund a war against the Romans. He successfully managed to take the whole of Egypt and drove the Romans out. The Romans arranged renforcements and they came back in great numbers and took the whole of Egypt with the exception of Alexandria. The advancing army told them to surrender or there would be grave consequences, the Egyptians refused to the Emperor said that there was to be blood letting until the blood reached the knees of his horse.
So they attacked the city and began a slaughter like none other which went for some days until the horse slipped and its knees were marked with blood. The emperor took this as a sign that the gods were satisfied.
The thankful Egyptians commemorated this by making a statue of the horse.
The emperors name is very famous in Coptic Church history - his name is Diocletian and this event marks the beginning of the Coptic new year.
I don't see why not because the Egyptians had fought before.
Yes, and wasn't Saint Mercurious and Saint George in the military!??
So, we should have fought!!
Why didn't we??
Also, is Christianity weak?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10027.msg122556#msg122556 date=1290435536]
I don't see why not because the Egyptians had fought before.
So, we should have fought!!
Yeah. Well i guess if you read enough history books you'll find out. You are now talking about a true physical war....not a debate between a person and another. We probably had no chance of winning a war that we would of gotten into. So to safe life, why go to war if you know you gonna lose. Well i say the answer of this question is still open. you cannot use the fact that we didn't fight in a war or even if others choose not to fight because they are Christians to prove that "Christianity is weak"
If Christianity was/is weak, would we be Christians right now? would it live through all of these years in those many churches?
We have a religion that tells us we should OFFER the other Cheek to those that slap us, and yet we are surrounded by a religion whose god tells them that they should slap us.
God must be looking at us from Heaven and laughing at all this!
Personally, I think God has a good sense of humour, especially if He knew that we'd be a minority under an Islamic Majority.
Doesnt this just give the impression to others that we are weak??
Why does it matter?
Because, when we offer the other cheek and we forgive, its a sign of tolerance, patience and love.
When you keep on and on and on and on doing it, then you cannot help but see yourself and your faith as making you weak.
That's all.
Is Christianity weak?!
What do we gain by turning the other cheek, especially in an environment where christians are the minority under islamic rule? THeir god tells them to subdue us, and our God tells us to take it as a blessing whenever you are being subdued.
Are there any benefits in it for us?
God's doesn't care about numbers and He doesn't care about how His people are treated on earth (even though He still helps)....as long as they are with HIM with their hearts, soul and mind.
He doesn't care about how His people are treated on earth
Thanks Mina,
That's really good to know. I'm glad you were not my sunday school teacher.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10027.msg122562#msg122562 date=1290446627]
Why does it matter?
Because, when we offer the other cheek and we forgive, its a sign of tolerance, patience and love.
hehe....how else do you prove God's way to the people except by action. but weak in WHAT?! the flesh? the soul? the spirit?
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10027.msg122565#msg122565 date=1290447254]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=10027.msg122564#msg122564 date=1290447178]
He doesn't care about how His people are treated on earth
Thanks Mina,
That's really good to know. I'm glad you were not my sunday school teacher.
you chose to leave out what i said in the "()"
Let me give you an example:
I read this tear-jerking story of a Coptic girl that was raped. In fact, there's a video of it on the net (yes! OF THE RAPE!).
Her abductors sexually assaulted her in order to convert her to Islam.
Great.. she suffered for the sake of Christ. That's wonderful. But does God want this for us? Does He want us really to go to the level of having our daughters, our women raped for his name's sake? Every single forced conversion has gone without ANY punishment in Egypt.
Its everything.
I have Christian friends that even told me they were refused jobs because they were CHristian in Egypt. Some were refused scholarships even that they deserved AND won.
All this is good that we suffer Christ's Name's sake, but what have muslims gained from seeing this??
Muslims tell us "Your God is a lamb" and then they make sounds of lambs : "baaaa baaaa baaaa".
What exactly are we meant to be showing to others by being forgiving, easy going, like this? I can't help but feel that the Church is not only weak, but the impression given to the outside world is also not a positive one.
That's why I'm asking : "In what conditions SHOULD WE have fought" when being attacked?
When should we fight? When should we turn the other cheek, and when should we slap the other person back???
WHEN!!!
please pray for me and my weakness
[quote author=minagir link=topic=10027.msg122564#msg122564 date=1290447178]
He doesn't care about how His people are treated on earth
Thanks Mina,
That's really good to know. I'm glad you were not my sunday school teacher.
Ha. When I was younger I used to always ask questions like yours in Sunday school- and I used to (and still do) get answers like this one all the time.
But like Marenhos Epchois said, turning the other cheek is the stronger thing to do. Which is harder: to fight back, or to go against your natural instincts and love them anyway? In another thread I saw that you said that you find Christianity to be more legitimate because we were given this law, and Christ lived it, and He is our example to follow. Try to fathom the level and caliber of the humility He showed by being gibed at, whipped, tortured, and spit on. That was our God!! Is our God weak? Do we not not acknowledge his omnipotence despite this? But rather, as Mina probably should have said, God wants us to seek His favor before we seek that of other people. God loves His creation, enough to reach the epitome of humiliation, and as a result, he expects us to love His creation too. Think of Galatians 1:10 which says,
"For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ."
It is going against our instincts and desires that makes us strong- regardless of others' perception of us. The same Spirit in us that tells us not to sin is the One that tells us to love our enemies. This is what's most honorable before God: that we fought ourselves in order to love, rather than fight others with a sword. He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. And so will Islam be, which spread and lives by the sword.
Turning the other cheeks is teaching us not to practice "Eye for an Eye method" Meaning the jews if you cut someones arms off in revenge you would cut their hands off.. But now Christ tells us not to pursue revenge and say "God forgive you" and let God Judge.
With that said, We as Christians have the right to fight and kill our enemies if they invade us in our land. When Christ was slapped on the cheeks by the High Priests in the Jewish temple He didnt just stay silent, He told the Priest why do you slap me? What have I done wrong for you to slap me!
If we are invaded and occupied we are allowed to rebel and kick the invaders out.. It is our right.. or we can also be humble and change the hearts of the invader with our faith and word of Mouth (Which is what our Church chose) remember the Romans occupied Egypt before Islam and Egyptians didn't have weapons to fight Islam.
Also, Our Church is stronger then ever, Us living in a state of persecution, war , and humiliation. Has made us Glow and strong in Gods eyes and in Faith, Unity. Look at all the other Churches none of them are as united and humble and spritual as the Copts..
Our suffering through Christ has become our great Blessing.
First of all turning the other cheek does not mean if someone physically slaps you on your cheeks you tell him hey come slap me again... NOOO
Turning the other cheeks is teaching us not to practice "Eye for an Eye method" Meaning the jews if you cut someones arms off in revenge you would cut their hands off.. But now Christ tells us not to pursue revenge and say "God forgive you" and let God Judge.
Huh? So if someone slaps me, I have to tell him "God forgive you" and let God judge? Do I say that before or after I have to offer him the other cheek? Do you think if I threw in a box of chocolates it could help? OK.. and what land would that be? Why didn't Christ offer the other cheek? I'm lost. Why didnt He slap Him back if He was upset? Why didn't we do that? We were invaded by Amr Ibn Aas in the 6th century. Dude, I just saw a video of a Coptic girl being raped. Those who captured and raped her are on the video, their faces are exposed, and no arrests have been made. (as far as I know).
Christ said offer the other cheek. He didn't say we should offer our women and our daughters.
What is this???
So why does God allow the innocent to suffer?
In answering this question, the first thing to consider is whether such a thing as “the innocent” even exists. According to the Bible, “the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things” (Jeremiah 17:9), and “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Therefore, no one is innocent in the sense of being sinless. Sin entered the world when Adam and Even rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden, and mankind has been in rebellion ever since. Sin’s effects permeate everything, and the suffering we see all around us is a direct result of that sin.
But God did not leave us here to suffer pointlessly. Our loving and merciful God has a perfect plan to use that suffering to accomplish His threefold purpose. First, He uses pain and suffering to draw us to Himself so that we will cling to Him. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation” (John 16:33). Trials and distress are not something unusual in life; they are part of what it means to be human in a fallen world. In Christ we have an anchor that holds fast in all the storms of life, but if we never sail into those storms, how would we know that? It is in times of despair and sorrow that we reach out to Him, and, if we are His children, we always find Him there waiting to comfort and uphold us through it all. In this way, He proves His faithfulness to us and ensures that we will stay close to Him. An added benefit is that as we experience God’s comfort through trials, we are then able to comfort others in the same way (2 Corinthians 1:4).
Second, He proves to us that our faith is real through the suffering and pain that are inevitable in this life. How we respond to suffering is determined by the genuineness of our faith. Those with faith truly from God, “the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2), will not be crushed by suffering, but will come through the trial with their faith intact, having been “proven through fire” so that it “might be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7). Those are the ones who do not shake their fists at God or question His goodness, but instead “count it all joy” (James 1:2), knowing that trials prove that they are truly the children of God. “Blessed is the man who endures temptation, because having been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).
Finally, God uses suffering to take our eyes off this world and put them on the next. The Bible continually exhorts us to not get caught up in the things of this world, but to look forward to the world to come. This world and all that is in it will pass away, but the kingdom of God is eternal. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36), and those who would follow Him must not see the things of this life, both good and bad, as the end of the story. Even the sufferings we endure and which seem so terrible “are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed in us” (Romans 8:18).
Could God prevent all suffering? Of course. But He assures us that “all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). So even suffering is part of the “all things” that God is using to accomplish His good purposes. His plan is perfect, His character is flawless, and those who trust Him will not be disappointed.
I really hope this helps answer your question. You ask good ones too.
All that said, the broader discussion of the position of forgiveness or resistance is difficult. Since I come from a Latin American background where a lot of people (Roman Catholics) identify very much with Christ as the bringer of justice and equality (the phenomenon of "liberation theology"), it can be an uphill struggle to remind them that Jesus Christ was not a proto-Marxist, and that none of the actions of the Savior can be comfortably mapped onto today's political notions. Just the same, as he was not a Marxist, he was likewise not a pacifist in the strict sense embraced by some Christian-rooted traditions. He was not some sort of proto-hippie. Christ drove the money changers from the temple, as they had profaned the house of God. Likewise He did not shy from proclaiming the message which He knew would cause rancor among families. Not very passive, is it?
A Maronite friend of mine once made the observation that while forgiveness is always the Christian position, holding out your hand to the one with a knife pointed at you is just foolish. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not command foolishness. Remember from the Book of Matthew that He gave TWO commandments to His apostles as they prepared to go out and evangelize the world: Be as innocent as doves, and as wise as serpents. Of course the poor girl in the video you saw is innocent, as I believe the Copts are in any of the incidents in which they are brutalized by the majority and/or the state. So, on to what is wise...I am of the opinion that this is to be decided on a case by case basis. Sometimes it is wise to let your oppressor know that they have transgressed your limits and you are prepared to defend your community in the absence of a commitment from the state to provide the necessary protection. This is not abandoning forgiveness at all. It is doing what you need to do to secure a future for your community in your own land.