Is it Right to Call Saint Mark an Apostle

Zoxsasi

Hi,

I've seen many literatures stating that Saint Mark was an "Apostle" of Jesus Christ.

Isn't this incorrect? Although Saint Mark was one of the 4 Evangelists, he wasn't one of the 12. So, given that he was an evangelist, is it right to still consider him an "apostle"?

coptic_deacon

it depends on whether you consider the twelve to be apostles or disciples. They are indeed both, however, when referring to the other seventy we say apostles. in this case, to differentiate, we would say that the 12 are the disciples. St mark was not of the twelve but he was of the seventy.

THERFORE, to rephrase: 1. St. Mark is not one of the Twelve DISCIPLES, but he is one of the Seventy APOSTLES.
                                  2. the twelve are considered apostles (as messengers of Jesus Christ) and disciples (as those                      who were in the everyday life of Jesus Christ)

I'm not very good at explaining so if you need to clarify something, just ask. :)

Zoxsasi

[quote author=coptic_deacon link=topic=10048.msg122746#msg122746 date=1290678402]
it depends on whether you consider the twelve to be apostles or disciples. They are indeed both, however, when referring to the other seventy we say apostles. in this case, to differentiate, we would say that the 12 are the disciples. St mark was not of the twelve but he was of the seventy.

THERFORE, to rephrase: 1. St. Mark is not one of the Twelve DISCIPLES, but he is one of the Seventy APOSTLES.
                                  2. the twelve are considered apostles (as messengers of Jesus Christ) and disciples (as those                       who were in the everyday life of Jesus Christ)

I'm not very good at explaining so if you need to clarify something, just ask. :)



Thanks Coptic_Deacon!!

But let's get this straight: Did Christ have 12 Apostles, or 12 Disciples? I thought he had 12 Apostles and 70 Disciples.

Maybe I got it mixed up, but I know that Mark was not one of the 12.

ilovesaintmark

Zoxsasi,

You are hitting a touchy subject for me esp. with a name:  ilovesaintmark.

I think Coptic_deacon makes a partial distinction between the terms.

If you go by definitions (in very simple terms without going into a lot of dictionary stuff):
disciple-one who follows a mentor
apostle-messenger

In this case St. Mark would fulfill both.

By Tradition, the term Apostle denotes the central core of 12 that were with Our Lord and were called to preach the Gospel.

By Tradition, the term Disciple denotes the extended 70.

For us as Copts, he is the Apostle who brought the message to Egypt and started the Church in the Egypt.  Yet, he is not one of the central 12.  He fulfills the dictionary definition, the Local Tradition of the Coptic Church as its Apostle from the Lord, but he is not, naturally, one of the central 12.

The central 12 were both Disciples and Apostles.

It all depends on which aspect of their being you choose to focus.

He is also our father--a great one I might add.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10048.msg122749#msg122749 date=1290680132]
Zoxsasi,

You are hitting a touchy subject for me esp. with a name:  ilovesaintmark.

I think Coptic_deacon makes a partial distinction between the terms.

If you go by definitions (in very simple terms without going into a lot of dictionary stuff):
disciple-one who follows a mentor
apostle-messenger

In this case St. Mark would fulfill both.

By Tradition, the term Apostle denotes the central core of 12 that were with Our Lord and were called to preach the Gospel.

By Tradition, the term Disciple denotes the extended 70.

For us as Copts, he is the Apostle who brought the message to Egypt and started the Church in the Egypt.  Yet, he is not one of the central 12.  He fulfills the dictionary definition, the Local Tradition of the Coptic Church as its Apostle from the Lord, but he is not, naturally, one of the central 12.

The central 12 were both Disciples and Apostles.

It all depends on which aspect of their being you choose to focus.

He is also our father--a great one I might add.


That's right ILSM!!

So, its wrong to call Saint Mark an Apostle. He was only a disciple.

The 12 Apostles were Disciples AND Apostles.

But the 70 were only disciples.

ilovesaintmark

Zoxsasi,

Dude, did you read my post?  He is an Apostle, but not one of the central 12 to the Lord.

Are you trying to push an agenda against the ultimate (mortal) father we have?  Watch out.  You are pushing some
heavy buttons--Sir.  Be aware of the heavenly reprisals, and unheavenly ones also.

peterfarrington

The Seventy are Apostles and Disciples. There were hundreds of disciples, they formed the beginning of the Church. But to be an Apostle was to be sent out. The word Apostle had a particular meaning, which in Palestine in the time of Christ was 'authorised messenger'.

The 12 were sent out, and then the 70 were sent out. They were all Apostles. They were all 'authorised messengers'.

Our Lord called His disciples to him, of which there were many, and chose 12 whom he called Apostles. This was not a title, but a function. In the chapter after the Lord sends out (apostoleo) His 12 messengers or Apostles, we read immediately..

Luke 10:1  After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

And we see that the word 'also' connects them in this Apostolic ministry, and the verb 'sent' which is again 'aposteleo' also shows that these are Apostles.

The Church has always understood that there are the 12 and there are the 70, but both are Apostles.

The Didache also shows us that in the early Church there were many more who were considered Apostles, as being 'sent out' with the divine message of the Gospel. They were what we would call missionaries nowadays.

It seems to me that it is entirely acceptable that St Mark be considered an Apostle. We still speak of St Augustine of Canterbury as the Apostle of the English etc. And this is not unreasonable or unacceptable.

The Apostles have been always, as far as I can see, understood as:

i. The 12 Apostles

ii. The 70

iii. Those who engaged in missionary work in the first century - we read of other apostles who are not likely to be among the 70.

iv. All those Orthodox Christian missionaries who have effected great growth in the Church. It would be acceptable to speak of the apostolic ministry of a missionary bishop for instance.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10048.msg122753#msg122753 date=1290681737]
Zoxsasi,

Dude, did you read my post?  He is an Apostle, but not one of the central 12 to the Lord.

Are you trying to push an agenda against the ultimate (mortal) father we have?  Watch out.  You are pushing some
heavy buttons--Sir.  Be aware of the heavenly reprisals, and unheavenly ones also.


Sorry guys, I got confused...

I read it differently.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10048.msg122754#msg122754 date=1290682121]
The Seventy are Apostles and Disciples. There were hundreds of disciples, they formed the beginning of the Church. But to be an Apostle was to be sent out. The word Apostle had a particular meaning, which in Palestine in the time of Christ was 'authorised messenger'.

The 12 were sent out, and then the 70 were sent out. They were all Apostles. They were all 'authorised messengers'.

Our Lord called His disciples to him, of which there were many, and chose 12 whom he called Apostles. This was not a title, but a function. In the chapter after the Lord sends out (apostoleo) His 12 messengers or Apostles, we read immediately..

Luke 10:1  After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

And we see that the word 'also' connects them in this Apostolic ministry, and the verb 'sent' which is again 'aposteleo' also shows that these are Apostles.

The Church has always understood that there are the 12 and there are the 70, but both are Apostles.

The Didache also shows us that in the early Church there were many more who were considered Apostles, as being 'sent out' with the divine message of the Gospel. They were what we would call missionaries nowadays.

It seems to me that it is entirely acceptable that St Mark be considered an Apostle. We still speak of St Augustine of Canterbury as the Apostle of the English etc. And this is not unreasonable or unacceptable.

The Apostles have been always, as far as I can see, understood as:

i. The 12 Apostles

ii. The 70

iii. Those who engaged in missionary work in the first century - we read of other apostles who are not likely to be among the 70.

iv. All those Orthodox Christian missionaries who have effected great growth in the Church. It would be acceptable to speak of the apostolic ministry of a missionary bishop for instance.


Thanks Fr. Peter,

I'm glad I asked anyway, your post was very educational.

So, its OK to call St Mark an "apostle" then.

Thanks

ilovesaintmark

Sasi,

It is of necessity to call him, the Great St. Mark, "Apostle".

Zoxsasi

[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=10048.msg122759#msg122759 date=1290685603]
Sasi,

It is of necessity to call him, the Great St. Mark, "Apostle".


If he was here today, and he saw the clashes in Egypt, what would he say? What would he have done?

John_S2000

Zoxsasi,

Saint Mark was a great martyr himself, they dragged his body in the streets.
BTW Saint Paul was also an Apostle and martyr, right?

GBU

anba bola

John_S2000,

St. Paul was an Apostle as shown in many of his epistles where he wrote of himself "called to be an Apostle", and Holy Tradition tells us that he was martyred by the hands of Nero (SYnaxarium Link here).

Edit
Sorry i just realised that you may be talkimg about whether St. Paul was one of the seventy. I don't think he is one of the seventy, but he is definitely an apostle.

Please pray for me

Zoxsasi

I think this is so interesting...

So, is it right to call Saint Paul an "Apostle" also?

He wasn't one of the 12.
He wasn't one of the 70

In that case, we are all Apostles??

peterfarrington

No we are not all Apostles, but St Paul certainly was. As I said earlier, there were other Apostles than the 12 and the 70.

The Apostolic ministry is particularly of one church building and planting.

ilovesaintmark

St. Paul is known as the Apostle to the Gentiles.

The Acts of the Apostles identifies, as an Apostle, he labored more than the other 12 combined.

Amoussa01

Hold on a sec...where is it mentioned that St. Mark was not one of the twelve?

anba bola

Hey Amoussa,

St. Mark couldn't have been one of the twelve because the Bible tells the names of all twelve.

Their names are:
St. Peter, St. Andrew, St. Simon the Zealot, St. James the Less, St. James the Greater, St. John, St. Bartholomew, St. Thaddaeus (Also called Jude or Lebbaeus), St. Matthew, St. Philip, St. Matthias, and St. Thomas.

TITL

You serious?

The 12 disciples are:

Kyrios Isos Pekhristos...

Peter
Andrew
John
James son of Zebedee
Philip
Matthew
Bartholomew
Thomas
James the Son of Alpheus
Simon the Caninite
Thaddeus
James son of Zebedee
Mathias was chosen instead of Judas and was counted with the rest who followed the master ;)

..Apokhoro shenaf evol..

TITL

Anba Bola copied me.

coptic_deacon

wasn't st paul chosen by christ himself on the road to damascus? therefore unless you were called on the road to cairo, new york or sydney then you're not an apostle :)