[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151380#msg151380 date=1328171207] Well from a Western perspective, a 15 minute hymn with only one word, does not fit well with the Western musical tradition - which is also rooted in Orthodoxy and Monasticism. It could well be that as cultural differences become more evident this will become a problem. This is what I was trying to get to. This problem is multifactorial. I just find it confusing why music tradition is so easily adapted, while other spiritual exercises have been resistant to cultural influences.
It could also be that a long hymn, with many words, sung in a language that is not understood, could also quite naturally be problematic.
Yes. But I already adjusted for language. Alleluia in English is no different than Alleluia in Coptic. It should be clearly understood in any language.
The benefit of not using such long hymns, at least on a routine basis, is that ordinary people, struggling with their own spiritual growth, will not be caused to stumble. It is possible to praise God in a short hymn in which all participate as much as in a long hymn that only one or two know.
Agreed. There are advantages and disadvantages of both long hymns and short hymns. The disadvantage of long hymns is that it pours fire on the cultural and general population's attention deficiency. We like everything drive-through and faster than Google 0.24 second search results....even prayer. Long hymns are unfavorable because they are diametrically polar to this. I already tried to explain the advantages of long hymns. It is my personal experience.
Short hymns have disadvantages also (assuming we adjust for language and theologically acceptable hymns. No Protestant hymns). It is divergently opposite of a long Coptic music tradition that always used long hymns. The other disadvantage is that it feeds into that cultural attention deficiency. I have been to so many churches. I see liturgies that are consistently under an hour with no long hymns ever and I see liturgies that are consistently over 3 hours with many long hymns. I see people who normally pray slowly attend churches with fast liturgies and the general congregation and the priests are turning in their skins. I see people who normally pray fast attend churches with slow liturgies and gradually these churches turn into churches with fast liturgies. (Many have not). I think this observation can be explained by the attention deficiency nature of immigrated Coptic society.
The main advantage of short hymns is that more people will participate. However, this is a function of hymn education and acceptance. I have seen churches where hymn education is strong and dozens of deacons will sing a long hymn together (like Pekethronos). If the general population were to attend hymn classes, there would be more participation.
I must say that I still consider it pride for any of us to assume we know the hearts of the congregation, and are more spiritual, and know just the right things everyone else should be doing. When we speak about the need for others to be humble then we are exhibiting pride. Do you not think that the priests and bishop have constant thought for the spiritual wellbeing of their congregations?
Let me say that I apologize for even suggesting I know the hearts of the congregation. It was pride on my part. I was merely trying to discuss observations on how long hymns are dealt with by the priests, deacons, chanters and congregation. In my pride, I assigned a faulty reason for these observations. I hope the discussion will shift to finding logical and accurate reasons for observations.
Fr Peter and anyone else, please discuss how and why different spiritual exercises are resistant to cultural influences and adaptation and others are susceptible to constant change. Maybe we can compare other spiritual exercises and see how resistant or susceptible they are?
I am not sure that the other spiritual practices cultural in the sense that music is. Fasting is culturally adapted by the Church. The fasting rules of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria are not the same as those of the Orthodox Church of Etchmiadzin, or that of Antioch. We eat fish and shellfish at times when some other Orthodox do not. Some Orthodox consider beer to be acceptable in a fast, while the Orthodox Church of Alexandria does not. Some Orthodox traditions fast in different patterns to the Orthodox Church of of Alexandria.
The calendar and commemoration of saints in the Orthodox Church of Etchmiadzin is completely different to that of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria and is culturally modified.
The vestments of the Orthodox Churches are different and culturally modifed. The architecture of the temples is different and is culturally modified.
The Daily Office (the Agpeya) is different in each local Orthodox Church and all are different from that used in the Orthodox Church of Alexandria.
We see difference everywhere, as the Orthodox Church locates itself in a particular times and space.
Surely the issue is that now, members of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria find themselves in England, and the US and Canada and Australia, and must be Orthodox people HERE, and this requires dealing with the local culture as far as is appropriate.
Lets look at fasting again. I know a man who is advised to only fast a few weeks of Lent by his priest. I know other young people who are not allowed to fast at all yet. Are these people all lazy, unspiritual, being granted concessions that destroy their salvation? Or is it a recognition by those who have the care of them that in salvation, as in all things, we must grow and increase through experience. As a priest I am glad to see my own spiritual children fasting more and more at each season. But I do not burden them with the greatest and strictest rule of fasting possible. This would not be for their salvation. We begin little by little to increase our ability and enjoyment through careful training.
It seems to me that this is also reasonably applied in the use of hymns and the length of the service. I would expect a liturgy to last at least 2 hours. This is how long my own lasts. People often have other God-given responsibilities, and have travelled some distance to be together at the Liturgy. Those who turn up late because they don't care are the responsibility of the priest in any case. In my own context I am always considering how the spirituality of the congregation can be increased through participation in the liturgy, and I will discuss with my bishop and other clergy, and the deacons and laity, what increase in content I would like, so that we are all aware what I am asking and why I am asking for it.
But just because spending two or three hours in the Liturgy is good, it does not mean that spending four or five hours is better. Most of us are not monks. We have a life outside the Liturgy which must be lived faithfully. Indeed the Liturgy is not the substitute for life, but the nourishment for our life outside the Liturgy. At some point the priest must say, 'You are dismissed in peace'. The priest, deacons and laity should know how long the Liturgy should last in their own context. Material should be added carefully so that it is almost un-noticed. If the Liturgy lasts 2 hours and is extended by 5 minutes then there could be no complaint. But the change needs time to bed in. If people are pushing for a 1 hour Liturgy then that is a spiritual and pastoral problem, not a hymnology problem. Insisting that the Liturgy will be 4 hours long will not solve the problem but make it worse.
Surely there is a corpus of short hymns which everyone should know? And participate in with enjoyment? Why can this not be added to slowly.
The problem as a Westerner I would have with a 15 minute hymn containing only the word Alleluia is that it is no longer a hymn. It is sound but it is not a hymn. It would be more like a modern progressive classical piece by Taverner or someone like him. In the ancient Western Orthodox tradition the words had primacy and it was necessary that they be clearly understood. This is why it took so long for polyphony to be introduced. There was a great resistance to anything which confused the words. Indeed this is why old serious Protestant hymnody also gives primacy to the words, following on and even recovering the older Western tradition. So it is hard to consider a 15 minute tune expressing the single word Alleluia just once as a hymn.
Does this Western musical sense affect the youth? I would imagine that it does. But styles of music, within a range, can all be Orthodox and Liturgical. A youth who lives in the US is surely becoming an American who is an Orthodox according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria. Is it unreasonable that some musical elements which are based in the culture of the Middle East will become less attractive? I would guess so?
Are the longer hymns more accessible when they are sung in English? I mean that as a question? Is there evidence? I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
Is there evidence of the good results of a congregational hymn learning process anywhere? What is the best practice etc etc? The correct balance must be being found in some congregations?
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800] I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community. The 1st generation definitely does not it find it attractive. However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource. Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
If there was a greater selection of English language resources of good quality (in recording I mean) then it would be possible to have an opinion based on a wider selection.
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278] This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800] I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community. The 1st generation definitely does it find it attractive. However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource. Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
There has to be a missunderstanding there... This tasbeha is really good and is no where near the 'most hated tasbeha'.
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800] I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community. The 1st generation definitely does not it find it attractive. However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource. Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151402#msg151402 date=1328221821] [quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278] This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
As if it's too fast? In any section? The pauses between each section are excruciating! (listen to the 1st track) The fact that it is the only english resource is a great positive, but also a negative in that there's nowhere else to turn to
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151410#msg151410 date=1328231488] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151402#msg151402 date=1328221821] [quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278] This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
As if it's too fast? In any section? The pauses between each section are excruciating! (listen to the 1st track) The fact that it is the only english resource is a great positive, but also a negative in that there's nowhere else to turn to
it's interesting how the more i read your posts the less i become appreciative of your opinions. you have no sense of learning alhan and how sources needs to be that slow for others to learn......and the fact that you are speaking for all the youth in the "English speaking community" and in that general way is just absurd....... the 1st generation you are talking about is compiled of those who put us in a hole where each church has it's own translation of things (even the smallest simplest response) and then close their mind to change or compromise to unify in any way. THEIR OPINION i don't care about and many will agree--other than you of course. the current generation of great deacons are ones who compromise between what the 1st generations do and the next to come for the good of the Church.
I am kind of trying to understand where do your opinions come from mainly because of that first post you had on this forum (which the only reason i didn't bother with is because i was in the monastery) but i just can't. I just hope you are not another Vassilios/QT/--
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151415#msg151415 date=1328239314] [quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151410#msg151410 date=1328231488] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151402#msg151402 date=1328221821] [quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278] This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
As if it's too fast? In any section? The pauses between each section are excruciating! (listen to the 1st track) The fact that it is the only english resource is a great positive, but also a negative in that there's nowhere else to turn to
it's interesting how the more i read your posts the less i become appreciative of your opinions. you have no sense of learning alhan and how sources needs to be that slow for others to learn......and the fact that you are speaking for all the youth in the "English speaking community" and in that general way is just absurd....... the 1st generation you are talking about is compiled of those who put us in a hole where each church has it's own translation of things (even the smallest simplest response) and then close their mind to change or compromise to unify in any way. THEIR OPINION i don't care about and many will agree--other than you of course. the current generation of great deacons are ones who compromise between what the 1st generations do and the next to come for the good of the Church.
I am kind of trying to understand where do your opinions come from mainly because of that first post you had on this forum (which the only reason i didn't bother with is because i was in the monastery) but i just can't. I just hope you are not another Vassilios/QT/--
Lol relax. I was just pointing out some possible flaws in the recording. Most hated recording was an inappropriate exaggeration and I apologize for using that word. Of course I don't speak for the whole community, I'm simply relating the opinion of a portion. I don't understand what you mean by the bold bit. But I fully agree that deacons have a responsibility to cater adequately to all of the congregation, guided but the priest. In fact that was the discussion of this thread.
In regard to my initial post, in all honesty, I felt I was being brainwashed by the site. I had never heard any Orthodox take such a hard line against Protestantism before. In discussions (at church) about cults such as Mormonism, they were always said to be good Christians like us (of course I don't mean absolutely). I do thoroughly and always have disagreed with every thing they believe which is not compatible to Orthodoxy, but the site is the first time I heard anyone going to that extent. I tried to "fix" things, genuinely. I still have my reservations, some consensus on here is contrary to even what some priests preach, but I have also come to know the positives of the site, and will not speak out so as not to cause offence. That is my perspective. I don't know who Vassillios/QT are.
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800] I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community. The 1st generation definitely does not it find it attractive. However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource. Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
I have this recording.. its excellent. Why don't you like it?
Hey - has anyone here heard the Psalms prayed in English from iTunes? This Coptic guy from the states sings Psalms 50 and something else REALLY slowly in a very very long tune. Frankly, its awesome. You know me how I like hymns with some beat and jazz in them, but this fellow is just unbelievable. If I can find the exact name, I'll pass it on.
I like the slow pace of the recording from St Anthony's. I don't like it when things are rushed. I think that it is part of the ancient Western Orthodox monastic culture that the chants be slow and reflective.
Perhaps the discussion has transitioned to a different topic but I'll comment on a few things that came up earlier. I believe the attraction to one form of Liturgical music versus another is based on what one is accustomed to. Generally speaking, I don't necessarily believe that longer Coptic hymns are any more edifying than Western style hymns. However, they are more satisfying for me. I for one would never be able to pray using Western style religious hymns and songs. The style is incompatible with what I grew up with. It is not how I learned to chant. Similarly, those who grew accustomed to praying with Western style hymns may find it not as edifying to pray with Coptic hymns and that is perfectly fine as long as there is understanding that I expect to be able to worship in the way in which I grew accustomed to when I attend my church just as someone who grew up with a different tradition should expect that when they go to their church as well.
Do we now "push out" some of the longer Coptic hymns from our services in favor of shorter hymns? Do we replace or skip Coptic hymns that are chanted during communion (such as Kata Nikhoros for Easter, Efemepsha for Kiahk, Genethlion for the Feast of the Nativity, Pimairomi for the Lent weekday rite, Oonishti for the Great Lent weekend rite, Pioik for year-round days, Panooti for Bright Saturday) in favor of more shorter hymns in English or Arabic?
The Coptic church has chanted in a certain way for many years. Despite the fact that I grew up in the United States, I learned to chant this way. My children are being taught to chant this way even though they've never set foot in Egypt. Most children in my church are also being taught this way. Many of them have parents that were either born in the US or came at a very young age. Should we then attempt to change an aspect of the way the Coptic church worships via it's hymns because the church is located in the United States or other countries that are accustomed to different rites and hymns? There is obviously something of great value in our rites, traditions, and hymns that has many of us clinging on to them.
Regarding why some of us talk about how cantors or priests chant hymns, it really is no different than if someone were to comment on a Bible study. Fr. Dawood Lamie, for example, is very popular among Arabic speakers for his sermons. Many compliment him for his rich sermons, flock to conferences that he is attending, etc. When he is visiting and area there is a lot of "buzz" and publicity surrounding his visit. Those of us who consider Coptic hymns an important part of how we pray do the same. We comment on how cantor so and so is able to chant a hymn beautifully etc. I don't believe it would be inappropriate for there to be the same kind of attention when a cantor is visiting, such as Muallim Ibrahim Ayad for instance.
Those seeking edification through sermons and teaching willl likely flock to Fr. Dawood Lamie more so than a priest who may not be as strong in this area. The same goes for those who are spiritually edified through Coptic hymnology. They will be more likely to celebrate a Liturgy, for example, with a priest who has a command of the Liturgy and is able to pray the Liturgy with it's known hymns for the priest. For example, I love listening to the Gregorian Anaphora in Coptic in it's original tune. When I listen to Fr. Murqus Girgis chant "Enthok Ghar" for fifteen minutes on the HICS Gregorian Liturgy recordings, it is a spiritual exercise for me. I contemplate on the words as he is chanting them with his beautiful voice. Since this area of worship is important to me, I do not have as much of an opportunity to benefit from this part of the Liturgy if it is chanted in 60 seconds for instance. Therefore, I will compliment those (such as Fr. Murqus) who have a command of this part of the Liturgy and thus are able to provide that spiritual edification to me. It is no different than the Fr. Dawood example.
So, if someone is listening to a sermon, they are doing so because it will help to lead to their salvation. They will contemplate on the words. They will turn the words into action in their lives. For most who appreciate longer Coptic hymns, it is no different. Consider, the hymn Pekethronos (The Psalm "Your throne Oh Lord is forever...) which is chanted on Good Friday. The melismata is more than just sounds to those who are chanting and accustomed to it. It is an opportunity to remember in the 18 minutes or so it takes to chant the Psalm on Good Friday. It is an active process of commemoration, one that provides an opportunity to live with Christ and also to turn words into action. So, lets not leave out an aspect of our services that some find beneficial to their spiritual lives.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151434#msg151434 date=1328277546] I like the slow pace of the recording from St Anthony's. I don't like it when things are rushed. I think that it is part of the ancient Western Orthodox monastic culture that the chants be slow and reflective.
Fr, you are going to love this guy's rendition of Psalm 50. Its stunning. If you have iTunes, do a search on Coptic and Psalm. I do not know who he is, but its really really beautiful the way he prays it.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
Yes, it was more or less this tune... but it was more solemn. This isn't the one I was talking about , but the tune was there. I never heard this tune before at all.
We hardly pray this tune in our church as i think abouna would have stopped us if we did (it takes too long).
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12849.msg151445#msg151445 date=1328304395] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
Agreed. Not liking this at all.
And if it were a male singing, no one would complain... of course.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12849.msg151447#msg151447 date=1328304683] And if it were a male singing, no one would complain... of course. I like it.
nooo.....i still wouldn't like if it was said in this specific way. there is a reason that one of the basics for priests is to learn the thanksgiving prayer in this tune and in coptic. constructing the tune in english....hmm....i don't like. it doesn't flow....and doing that doesn't accomplish much. also i didn't say what she did is wrong. as long as she is not saying this as part of a liturgical service, i am "fine" with it. she can do whatever she wants with those limits.
and please titl, don't argue for the sake of argument.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12849.msg151447#msg151447 date=1328304683] [quote author=JG link=topic=12849.msg151445#msg151445 date=1328304395] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
Agreed. Not liking this at all.
And if it were a male singing, no one would complain... of course.
I like it.
I'm no misogynist. I don't have any kind of problem with ladies recording hymns at all.
I don't like this because exactly as Mina said, the tune just doesn't fit with the English. And it also annoys me when (anyone) chants the Agpeya in this tune (the tune taken from the Raising of Incense). It just isn't supposed to be chanted that way.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12849.msg151450#msg151450 date=1328305950] And Mina, I don't argue for the sake of argument; I just get defensive when there are unnecessary attacks against my gender.
and if you keep thinking about that all the time we will NEVER stop arguing about this sexist problem......that simply will hinder you from learning more an being understanding of the truth about things we need to do to get to heaven.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151429#msg151429 date=1328276251] There is a very great problem indeed if anywhere any Orthodox are suggesting that Mormons are good Christians like us.
Frankly that is more appalling than the idea that young Orthodox are going off to Protestant services and Bible studies against all the canons.
Mormons are not Christians at all, not even Christians like Methodists, Baptists and Anglicans. Mormonism is an entirely different and false religion.
You have misunderstood me Abouna. I meant that Protestantism is not attacked, however, Mormonism always is. The strongest thing I have heard against Protestantism is an academic summary of our differences, and why we are right. It's never said to be destroying the church, or only Christians in a loose sociological sense (although you may have only been referring to Pentecostals when you said that, which seems reasonable after having flicked to GOD TV for 2 secs!)
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611] [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249] What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)
Comments
Well from a Western perspective, a 15 minute hymn with only one word, does not fit well with the Western musical tradition - which is also rooted in Orthodoxy and Monasticism. It could well be that as cultural differences become more evident this will become a problem.
This is what I was trying to get to. This problem is multifactorial. I just find it confusing why music tradition is so easily adapted, while other spiritual exercises have been resistant to cultural influences. Yes. But I already adjusted for language. Alleluia in English is no different than Alleluia in Coptic. It should be clearly understood in any language. Agreed. There are advantages and disadvantages of both long hymns and short hymns. The disadvantage of long hymns is that it pours fire on the cultural and general population's attention deficiency. We like everything drive-through and faster than Google 0.24 second search results....even prayer. Long hymns are unfavorable because they are diametrically polar to this. I already tried to explain the advantages of long hymns. It is my personal experience.
Short hymns have disadvantages also (assuming we adjust for language and theologically acceptable hymns. No Protestant hymns). It is divergently opposite of a long Coptic music tradition that always used long hymns. The other disadvantage is that it feeds into that cultural attention deficiency. I have been to so many churches. I see liturgies that are consistently under an hour with no long hymns ever and I see liturgies that are consistently over 3 hours with many long hymns. I see people who normally pray slowly attend churches with fast liturgies and the general congregation and the priests are turning in their skins. I see people who normally pray fast attend churches with slow liturgies and gradually these churches turn into churches with fast liturgies. (Many have not). I think this observation can be explained by the attention deficiency nature of immigrated Coptic society.
The main advantage of short hymns is that more people will participate. However, this is a function of hymn education and acceptance. I have seen churches where hymn education is strong and dozens of deacons will sing a long hymn together (like Pekethronos). If the general population were to attend hymn classes, there would be more participation. Let me say that I apologize for even suggesting I know the hearts of the congregation. It was pride on my part. I was merely trying to discuss observations on how long hymns are dealt with by the priests, deacons, chanters and congregation. In my pride, I assigned a faulty reason for these observations. I hope the discussion will shift to finding logical and accurate reasons for observations.
Fr Peter and anyone else, please discuss how and why different spiritual exercises are resistant to cultural influences and adaptation and others are susceptible to constant change. Maybe we can compare other spiritual exercises and see how resistant or susceptible they are?
The calendar and commemoration of saints in the Orthodox Church of Etchmiadzin is completely different to that of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria and is culturally modified.
The vestments of the Orthodox Churches are different and culturally modifed. The architecture of the temples is different and is culturally modified.
The Daily Office (the Agpeya) is different in each local Orthodox Church and all are different from that used in the Orthodox Church of Alexandria.
We see difference everywhere, as the Orthodox Church locates itself in a particular times and space.
Surely the issue is that now, members of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria find themselves in England, and the US and Canada and Australia, and must be Orthodox people HERE, and this requires dealing with the local culture as far as is appropriate.
Lets look at fasting again. I know a man who is advised to only fast a few weeks of Lent by his priest. I know other young people who are not allowed to fast at all yet. Are these people all lazy, unspiritual, being granted concessions that destroy their salvation? Or is it a recognition by those who have the care of them that in salvation, as in all things, we must grow and increase through experience. As a priest I am glad to see my own spiritual children fasting more and more at each season. But I do not burden them with the greatest and strictest rule of fasting possible. This would not be for their salvation. We begin little by little to increase our ability and enjoyment through careful training.
It seems to me that this is also reasonably applied in the use of hymns and the length of the service. I would expect a liturgy to last at least 2 hours. This is how long my own lasts. People often have other God-given responsibilities, and have travelled some distance to be together at the Liturgy. Those who turn up late because they don't care are the responsibility of the priest in any case. In my own context I am always considering how the spirituality of the congregation can be increased through participation in the liturgy, and I will discuss with my bishop and other clergy, and the deacons and laity, what increase in content I would like, so that we are all aware what I am asking and why I am asking for it.
But just because spending two or three hours in the Liturgy is good, it does not mean that spending four or five hours is better. Most of us are not monks. We have a life outside the Liturgy which must be lived faithfully. Indeed the Liturgy is not the substitute for life, but the nourishment for our life outside the Liturgy. At some point the priest must say, 'You are dismissed in peace'. The priest, deacons and laity should know how long the Liturgy should last in their own context. Material should be added carefully so that it is almost un-noticed. If the Liturgy lasts 2 hours and is extended by 5 minutes then there could be no complaint. But the change needs time to bed in. If people are pushing for a 1 hour Liturgy then that is a spiritual and pastoral problem, not a hymnology problem. Insisting that the Liturgy will be 4 hours long will not solve the problem but make it worse.
Surely there is a corpus of short hymns which everyone should know? And participate in with enjoyment? Why can this not be added to slowly.
The problem as a Westerner I would have with a 15 minute hymn containing only the word Alleluia is that it is no longer a hymn. It is sound but it is not a hymn. It would be more like a modern progressive classical piece by Taverner or someone like him. In the ancient Western Orthodox tradition the words had primacy and it was necessary that they be clearly understood. This is why it took so long for polyphony to be introduced. There was a great resistance to anything which confused the words. Indeed this is why old serious Protestant hymnody also gives primacy to the words, following on and even recovering the older Western tradition. So it is hard to consider a 15 minute tune expressing the single word Alleluia just once as a hymn.
Does this Western musical sense affect the youth? I would imagine that it does. But styles of music, within a range, can all be Orthodox and Liturgical. A youth who lives in the US is surely becoming an American who is an Orthodox according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church of Alexandria. Is it unreasonable that some musical elements which are based in the culture of the Middle East will become less attractive? I would guess so?
Are the longer hymns more accessible when they are sung in English? I mean that as a question? Is there evidence? I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
Is there evidence of the good results of a congregational hymn learning process anywhere? What is the best practice etc etc? The correct balance must be being found in some congregations?
I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
The 1st generation definitely does not it find it attractive.
However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource.
Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800]
I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
The 1st generation definitely does it find it attractive.
However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource.
Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
There has to be a missunderstanding there... This tasbeha is really good and is no where near the 'most hated tasbeha'.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800]
I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
The 1st generation definitely does not it find it attractive.
However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource.
Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
Note the red edit
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278]
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
As if it's too fast? In any section? The pauses between each section are excruciating! (listen to the 1st track)
The fact that it is the only english resource is a great positive, but also a negative in that there's nowhere else to turn to
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151402#msg151402 date=1328221821]
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278]
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
As if it's too fast? In any section? The pauses between each section are excruciating! (listen to the 1st track)
The fact that it is the only english resource is a great positive, but also a negative in that there's nowhere else to turn to
it's interesting how the more i read your posts the less i become appreciative of your opinions. you have no sense of learning alhan and how sources needs to be that slow for others to learn......and the fact that you are speaking for all the youth in the "English speaking community" and in that general way is just absurd.......
the 1st generation you are talking about is compiled of those who put us in a hole where each church has it's own translation of things (even the smallest simplest response) and then close their mind to change or compromise to unify in any way. THEIR OPINION i don't care about and many will agree--other than you of course. the current generation of great deacons are ones who compromise between what the 1st generations do and the next to come for the good of the Church.
I am kind of trying to understand where do your opinions come from mainly because of that first post you had on this forum (which the only reason i didn't bother with is because i was in the monastery) but i just can't. I just hope you are not another Vassilios/QT/--
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151410#msg151410 date=1328231488]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151402#msg151402 date=1328221821]
[quote author=qawe link=topic=12849.msg151400#msg151400 date=1328221278]
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
what in the world are you talking about? it is THE ONLY 'good' english recording of an entire sunday tasbeha recorded. for the last 10 yrs, and i am saying this for sure, i have seen NO RECORDINGS come close to the way this tasbeha was done in recording quality, in english text translation, in the selection of chanters and spirituality in their voices. more attractive to western tradition--yes mainly because it was recorded by youth led by Fr Anastasy Abba Antony and almost all of them live in the US, speaking english as their own native language. the speed is fine to--i actually consider some part a little quick due to the fact that they jump many english words.
As if it's too fast? In any section? The pauses between each section are excruciating! (listen to the 1st track)
The fact that it is the only english resource is a great positive, but also a negative in that there's nowhere else to turn to
it's interesting how the more i read your posts the less i become appreciative of your opinions. you have no sense of learning alhan and how sources needs to be that slow for others to learn......and the fact that you are speaking for all the youth in the "English speaking community" and in that general way is just absurd.......
the 1st generation you are talking about is compiled of those who put us in a hole where each church has it's own translation of things (even the smallest simplest response) and then close their mind to change or compromise to unify in any way. THEIR OPINION i don't care about and many will agree--other than you of course. the current generation of great deacons are ones who compromise between what the 1st generations do and the next to come for the good of the Church.
I am kind of trying to understand where do your opinions come from mainly because of that first post you had on this forum (which the only reason i didn't bother with is because i was in the monastery) but i just can't. I just hope you are not another Vassilios/QT/--
Lol relax. I was just pointing out some possible flaws in the recording. Most hated recording was an inappropriate exaggeration and I apologize for using that word. Of course I don't speak for the whole community, I'm simply relating the opinion of a portion. I don't understand what you mean by the bold bit. But I fully agree that deacons have a responsibility to cater adequately to all of the congregation, guided but the priest. In fact that was the discussion of this thread.
In regard to my initial post, in all honesty, I felt I was being brainwashed by the site. I had never heard any Orthodox take such a hard line against Protestantism before. In discussions (at church) about cults such as Mormonism, they were always said to be good Christians like us (of course I don't mean absolutely). I do thoroughly and always have disagreed with every thing they believe which is not compatible to Orthodoxy, but the site is the first time I heard anyone going to that extent. I tried to "fix" things, genuinely. I still have my reservations, some consensus on here is contrary to even what some priests preach, but I have also come to know the positives of the site, and will not speak out so as not to cause offence. That is my perspective. I don't know who Vassillios/QT are.
Frankly that is more appalling than the idea that young Orthodox are going off to Protestant services and Bible studies against all the canons.
Mormons are not Christians at all, not even Christians like Methodists, Baptists and Anglicans. Mormonism is an entirely different and false religion.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151394#msg151394 date=1328197800]
I find the recordings of the Midnight Praises from St Anthonys Monastery more accessible than many others, for instance, because they are more Western sounding. I could imagine worshipping with them and participating with them in the English words, where other recordings sound just too Middle Eastern.
This is possibly one of the most hated tasbeha recordings among the English speaking community.
The 1st generation definitely does not it find it attractive.
However, in future generations this may become a more valuable resource.
Perhaps also the tempo is a bit slow for both western and eastern tradition.
I have this recording.. its excellent. Why don't you like it?
Hey - has anyone here heard the Psalms prayed in English from iTunes? This Coptic guy from the states sings Psalms 50 and something else REALLY slowly in a very very long tune. Frankly, its awesome. You know me how I like hymns with some beat and jazz in them, but this fellow is just unbelievable. If I can find the exact name, I'll pass it on.
Do we now "push out" some of the longer Coptic hymns from our services in favor of shorter hymns? Do we replace or skip Coptic hymns that are chanted during communion (such as Kata Nikhoros for Easter, Efemepsha for Kiahk, Genethlion for the Feast of the Nativity, Pimairomi for the Lent weekday rite, Oonishti for the Great Lent weekend rite, Pioik for year-round days, Panooti for Bright Saturday) in favor of more shorter hymns in English or Arabic?
The Coptic church has chanted in a certain way for many years. Despite the fact that I grew up in the United States, I learned to chant this way. My children are being taught to chant this way even though they've never set foot in Egypt. Most children in my church are also being taught this way. Many of them have parents that were either born in the US or came at a very young age. Should we then attempt to change an aspect of the way the Coptic church worships via it's hymns because the church is located in the United States or other countries that are accustomed to different rites and hymns? There is obviously something of great value in our rites, traditions, and hymns that has many of us clinging on to them.
Regarding why some of us talk about how cantors or priests chant hymns, it really is no different than if someone were to comment on a Bible study. Fr. Dawood Lamie, for example, is very popular among Arabic speakers for his sermons. Many compliment him for his rich sermons, flock to conferences that he is attending, etc. When he is visiting and area there is a lot of "buzz" and publicity surrounding his visit. Those of us who consider Coptic hymns an important part of how we pray do the same. We comment on how cantor so and so is able to chant a hymn beautifully etc. I don't believe it would be inappropriate for there to be the same kind of attention when a cantor is visiting, such as Muallim Ibrahim Ayad for instance.
Those seeking edification through sermons and teaching willl likely flock to Fr. Dawood Lamie more so than a priest who may not be as strong in this area. The same goes for those who are spiritually edified through Coptic hymnology. They will be more likely to celebrate a Liturgy, for example, with a priest who has a command of the Liturgy and is able to pray the Liturgy with it's known hymns for the priest. For example, I love listening to the Gregorian Anaphora in Coptic in it's original tune. When I listen to Fr. Murqus Girgis chant "Enthok Ghar" for fifteen minutes on the HICS Gregorian Liturgy recordings, it is a spiritual exercise for me. I contemplate on the words as he is chanting them with his beautiful voice. Since this area of worship is important to me, I do not have as much of an opportunity to benefit from this part of the Liturgy if it is chanted in 60 seconds for instance. Therefore, I will compliment those (such as Fr. Murqus) who have a command of this part of the Liturgy and thus are able to provide that spiritual edification to me. It is no different than the Fr. Dawood example.
So, if someone is listening to a sermon, they are doing so because it will help to lead to their salvation. They will contemplate on the words. They will turn the words into action in their lives. For most who appreciate longer Coptic hymns, it is no different. Consider, the hymn Pekethronos (The Psalm "Your throne Oh Lord is forever...) which is chanted on Good Friday. The melismata is more than just sounds to those who are chanting and accustomed to it. It is an opportunity to remember in the 18 minutes or so it takes to chant the Psalm on Good Friday. It is an active process of commemoration, one that provides an opportunity to live with Christ and also to turn words into action. So, lets not leave out an aspect of our services that some find beneficial to their spiritual lives.
I like the slow pace of the recording from St Anthony's. I don't like it when things are rushed. I think that it is part of the ancient Western Orthodox monastic culture that the chants be slow and reflective.
Fr, you are going to love this guy's rendition of Psalm 50. Its stunning. If you have iTunes, do a search on Coptic and Psalm. I do not know who he is, but its really really beautiful the way he prays it.
What of this version?
A female?!!
Last time I asked, everyone on tasbeha.org said that was illegal.
What of this version?
Yes, it was more or less this tune... but it was more solemn. This isn't the one I was talking about , but the tune was there. I never heard this tune before at all.
We hardly pray this tune in our church as i think abouna would have stopped us if we did (it takes too long).
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249]
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
Agreed. Not liking this at all.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249]
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
Agreed. Not liking this at all.
And if it were a male singing, no one would complain... of course.
I like it.
And if it were a male singing, no one would complain... of course.
I like it.
nooo.....i still wouldn't like if it was said in this specific way. there is a reason that one of the basics for priests is to learn the thanksgiving prayer in this tune and in coptic. constructing the tune in english....hmm....i don't like. it doesn't flow....and doing that doesn't accomplish much.
also i didn't say what she did is wrong. as long as she is not saying this as part of a liturgical service, i am "fine" with it. she can do whatever she wants with those limits.
and please titl, don't argue for the sake of argument.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12849.msg151445#msg151445 date=1328304395]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12849.msg151443#msg151443 date=1328302611]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249]
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
Agreed. Not liking this at all.
And if it were a male singing, no one would complain... of course.
I like it.
I'm no misogynist. I don't have any kind of problem with ladies recording hymns at all.
I don't like this because exactly as Mina said, the tune just doesn't fit with the English. And it also annoys me when (anyone) chants the Agpeya in this tune (the tune taken from the Raising of Incense). It just isn't supposed to be chanted that way.
And Mina, I don't argue for the sake of argument; I just get defensive when there are unnecessary attacks against my gender.
And Mina, I don't argue for the sake of argument; I just get defensive when there are unnecessary attacks against my gender.
and if you keep thinking about that all the time we will NEVER stop arguing about this sexist problem......that simply will hinder you from learning more an being understanding of the truth about things we need to do to get to heaven.
There is a very great problem indeed if anywhere any Orthodox are suggesting that Mormons are good Christians like us.
Frankly that is more appalling than the idea that young Orthodox are going off to Protestant services and Bible studies against all the canons.
Mormons are not Christians at all, not even Christians like Methodists, Baptists and Anglicans. Mormonism is an entirely different and false religion.
You have misunderstood me Abouna. I meant that Protestantism is not attacked, however, Mormonism always is. The strongest thing I have heard against Protestantism is an academic summary of our differences, and why we are right. It's never said to be destroying the church, or only Christians in a loose sociological sense (although you may have only been referring to Pentecostals when you said that, which seems reasonable after having flicked to GOD TV for 2 secs!)
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12849.msg151440#msg151440 date=1328301249]
What of this version?
surprisingly, she is saying the thanksgiving prayer in the tune that priests pray during the liturgy, vespers and matins. i personally don't like....i don't know what she was trying to accomplish by singing this.
You know what happened??
I bet you that this lady heard the same MP3 i heard from iTunes and was just copying it.
You should check it out (its a male guy doing the psalm - but the way he does it is pretty awesome)