I wouldn't trust something just because the RC's use it... most traditional RC's are disgusted with the hymnals in use in their Churches in North America, and that's before considering the massively different approach to spirituality and theology. But older stuff, anything pre-schism, up to many very early Protestant hymns, can be approached with discernment, and the better ones taken, often with some small modification to make it fit better.
For tunes, some of the hymns in that book are sung in their traditional tunes. Many are fit to Coptic tunes.
I am comfortable with the ancient Western Orthodox hymns being used in English, and translations of ancient Eastern hymns being used in English. I would be comfortable with Coptic hymns being translated to a high standard of English and being set to a more Western form of the Coptic tune, or to one of the ancient Western Orthodox chants.
Here, for example, is an ancient Western Orthodox hymn being sung to an ancient Western Orthodox monastic chant..
[quote author=qawe link=topic=13508.msg157556#msg157556 date=1342007489] This thread is for those who (1) agree that Protestant songs are not ideal (at least; a stronger word could be inserted here) for use in Church and (2) do not stand against Coptic/Eastern hymnology being supplemented in our churches in the West. If you disagree, there have been many other threads on this in the past; you can open another one, but I predict it will quickly be locked.
I think those who agree with the above, such as Fr Peter, have been very firm in their stance against inappropriate positions, such as both the use of Protestant songs and Coptic ethnocentrism, but have not prosecuted a clear alternative.
This thread, I hope, will do that. I hope it becomes a library of resources for the establishment of truly Western and truly Orthodox churches in the lands of immigration. Perhaps, down the track, the contents could even be converted into a web page on this site. It's clear I have high hopes!
I feel this is important, as everyone seems to be making their own rules as they go along. Also, we can't tell people that Protestant music is not appropriate and then not provide alternatives; they will and are simply ignoring us, since Coptic chant may not necessarily appeal to the Western ear.
Some starter questions:
What hymns can be used? (I've heard O come O come Emmanuel is good because it is the words of an ancient Orthodox canon, but that's only one hymn) What tunes can be used - I recall Fr Peter mentioning that the BOC is modifying some of its tunes? What is the process for this? How much of a resource would the Catholic church be in this, since it is the closest Western institution to Orthodoxy? And I would also like to consider what the British Orthodox and OCA (American Orthodox), can contribute to this? I know Fr Peter does not like BOC liturgies recorded, but we have a lot to learn from an institution which is both thoroughly British (Anglo Saxon) and Orthodox. What are their liturgies like, etc?
My Dear friend,
I understand your concern in regard to this issue. I am considered by my own friends to be a fanatic of sorts, always in defence of Egyptian/Coptic identity. However, there is a difference in my perspective from many other 'fanatics'. Many others argue that we must preserve our tradition for the sake of preservation alone. This, while admirable, is not a sufficient argument for preservation. My own belief is as follows. While there are some songs and chants in other denominations that do not contradict our own doctrine, we cannot afford to give them a portal by which they can infiltrate our church. These are all people who have totally different ideas about christianity than we do. They have all persecuted us at some point. They consider us heretics. By taking in some of their chants it gives the impression that we are weak and have no identity of our own. Once that happens, who knows what garbage they'll end up leaving to us, whether it be inappropriate customs, beliefs, or doctrine.
I urge you for the love of God to consider this, because there are people like me who are willing to take this issue onto the intellectual battlefield of thermonuclear war (I kid you not).
[quote author=coptic_deacon link=topic=13508.msg157640#msg157640 date=1342251996] [quote author=qawe link=topic=13508.msg157556#msg157556 date=1342007489] This thread is for those who (1) agree that Protestant songs are not ideal (at least; a stronger word could be inserted here) for use in Church and (2) do not stand against Coptic/Eastern hymnology being supplemented in our churches in the West. If you disagree, there have been many other threads on this in the past; you can open another one, but I predict it will quickly be locked.
I think those who agree with the above, such as Fr Peter, have been very firm in their stance against inappropriate positions, such as both the use of Protestant songs and Coptic ethnocentrism, but have not prosecuted a clear alternative.
This thread, I hope, will do that. I hope it becomes a library of resources for the establishment of truly Western and truly Orthodox churches in the lands of immigration. Perhaps, down the track, the contents could even be converted into a web page on this site. It's clear I have high hopes!
I feel this is important, as everyone seems to be making their own rules as they go along. Also, we can't tell people that Protestant music is not appropriate and then not provide alternatives; they will and are simply ignoring us, since Coptic chant may not necessarily appeal to the Western ear.
Some starter questions:
What hymns can be used? (I've heard O come O come Emmanuel is good because it is the words of an ancient Orthodox canon, but that's only one hymn) What tunes can be used - I recall Fr Peter mentioning that the BOC is modifying some of its tunes? What is the process for this? How much of a resource would the Catholic church be in this, since it is the closest Western institution to Orthodoxy? And I would also like to consider what the British Orthodox and OCA (American Orthodox), can contribute to this? I know Fr Peter does not like BOC liturgies recorded, but we have a lot to learn from an institution which is both thoroughly British (Anglo Saxon) and Orthodox. What are their liturgies like, etc?
My Dear friend,
I understand your concern in regard to this issue. I am considered by my own friends to be a fanatic of sorts, always in defence of Egyptian/Coptic identity. However, there is a difference in my perspective from many other 'fanatics'. Many others argue that we must preserve our tradition for the sake of preservation alone. This, while admirable, is not a sufficient argument for preservation. My own belief is as follows. While there are some songs and chants in other denominations that do not contradict our own doctrine, we cannot afford to give them a portal by which they can infiltrate our church. These are all people who have totally different ideas about christianity than we do. They have all persecuted us at some point. They consider us heretics. By taking in some of their chants it gives the impression that we are weak and have no identity of our own. Once that happens, who knows what garbage they'll end up leaving to us, whether it be inappropriate customs, beliefs, or doctrine.
I urge you for the love of God to consider this, because there are people like me who are willing to take this issue onto the intellectual battlefield of thermonuclear war (I kid you not).
Westerners from before the schism had a very different view of Christianity?
I am not sure I agree with chasing the taste of the 'contemporary Western ear' simply because current tastes are too much affected by a secular, and even anti-Christian element of culture.
It is necessary, it seems to me, for the Christian to seek to enter into the best of culture, and that culture which expresses Christian truth most effectively. This always requires a degree of effort.
For instance, it is not entirely normal to stand in worship for two hours in the West. But this is not a practice which is unacceptable to Western people, it is just something that modern trends in micro-attention keeping do not encourage. A Christian needs to learn to be attentive in worship for extended periods.
Music and Language are at the core of a culture. It seems to me to be necessary to both extend the experience of music and language as a vehicle for spirituality and theology, and also to maintain the cultural integrity of that music and language.
Some will say that there is no Western culture, or that it is not worth much and cannot communicate our Orthodox Faith. This seems to me to exhibit a great ignorance of Western culture, and especially from my point of view, the English culture both in Latin and English forms.
This is rather a long way of saying that I do not believe that Orthodox should be looking at contemporary forms of music and hymnology. There is an attraction here, but it is the attraction of the sugary candy. There is a quick rush of emotion and feeling but no depth. This should be avoided, just as our Liturgical forms avoid it. There is an effort which is required to enter into all ancient and Orthodox liturgy. Even in my own congregation which uses English there is a need for attention and concentration.
There are other non-Orthodox groups which have developed short and comtemporary liturgical forms. They rather leave me cold because they seem to have adopted the modern cultural values of being short, not requiring a lot of time and attention, and they are either chatty in their language, of faddish.
So I guess what I am saying is that I prefer to restrict myself to Western forms which are guaranteed in their Orthodoxy, both according to music and text. There are also later translations of Eastern texts set to formal Western hymn tunes. These are sometimes useful and acceptable (IMHO).
For instance, in the British Orthodox tradition we use the Liturgy of St James which has a well known processional hymn which has been translated as 'Let all mortal flesh keep silence'. We sing this during the Great Entrance when You can hear the tune here...
This seems to me to be firmly in the tradition of the Orthodox form and the music remains free of emotionalism, while of course having feeling. It is a text from the 4th century Liturgy of St James, translated from Greek in more recent times and set to a medieval melody.
This is all in regard to anything actually used in the Liturgy itself, which must be most carefully protected. Personally I would have no problems with the Doxologies of the Raising of Incense being translated into the more formal English which the British Orthodox use (as indeed we have done), and being set to a similar, ancient Western Christian set of melodies. The ancient Western Orthodoxy has the different tones, for instance. These are no less Orthodox than anything produced in the East.
Outside of the Liturgy I am afraid that I am absolutely against the use anywhere of modern Evangelical songs in any context of worship. Where two or three are gathered they should NOT use these songs. If someone wants to listen to them driving in a car then that is something they should discuss with their FOC.
I would perhaps be willing to discuss the use of some Taize chant in an informal setting. But I am not absolutely for or against it. Taize is a Western religious community that has produced some modern chant set to ancient texts such as this...
My own son sings these Taize chants at his school. I do not think that I would generally feel uncomfortable with many of these songs. Not least because they are rooted in ancient texts and litanies etc, but are perhaps trying to set ancient chant melodies into a modern form. I do not personally want that more modern form to intrude into the Liturgy, but it may have a place in informal settings.
What I am interested in myself is the setting of ancient hymn texts (and there is a vast collection) to simple Western settings so that they can be used in informal contexts. Does anyone hear know the hymns of St Severus? Yet they have been translated into English prose and are just waiting for a faithful soul to transform them into hymns in English. Normally this would require the development of a number of simple tunes, and the texts would be set into poetic language so that they fitted the appropriate tune.
Simplicity of tune, lack of emotionalism, the primacy of the text and the ability for all to participate. These are important factors in my own thinking.
John Mason Neale is a significant figure in Western hymnography since he made it much of his work to translate the ancient hymns of East and West into English.
Here is 'The Day of Resurrection', for instance, a text written by John of Damascus in the 8th century.
He also translated the hymn that was sung when a fragment of the true cross entered into Poitiers in 568 AD, composed by Venantius Fortunatus. The text is as follows, and seems to me, as with much of the ancient Western Orthodox tradition, to be of comparable quality with much of that of the East..
The royal banners forward go, The cross shines forth in mystic glow; Where He in flesh, our flesh Who made, Our sentence bore, our ransom paid.
Where deep for us the spear was dyed, Life’s torrent rushing from His side, To wash us in that precious flood, Where mingled water flowed, and blood.
Fulfilled is all that David told In true prophetic song of old, Amidst the nations, God, saith he, Hath reigned and triumphed from the tree.
O tree of beauty, tree of light! O tree with royal purple dight! Elect on whose triumphal breast Those holy limbs should find their rest.
Blest tree, whose chosen branches bore The wealth that did the world restore, The price of humankind to pay, And spoil the spoiler of his prey.
Upon its arms, like balance true, He weighed the price for sinners due, The price which none but He could pay, And spoiled the spoiler of his prey.
O cross, our one reliance, hail! Still may thy power with us avail To give new virtue to the saint, And pardon to the penitent.
To Thee, eternal Three in One, Let homage meet by all be done: As by the cross Thou dost restore, So rule and guide us evermore.
An ancient melody can be heard here sung in English.
I would never have a problem with this hymn and melody being used, for instance. I think that both the words and melody are entirely Orthodox and beautiful.
Clearly there has been confusion in regard to what I said. In reference to other denominations I was speaking of anyone who is not in communion with us. There was also a question about other denominations before the schism. What I was trying to say was that although there are chants that are harmless to our doctrine, such as Ave Maria from the Roman rite, we can't afford to let it in to our rites. Once we open the gates, there will be no telling what else can get in. We are already suffering an identity crisis, and it will get worse if we don't act soon.
And I wish to add that having studied music for many years I can say with certainty that most musical traditions come from a root in Ancient Egyptian music, in one way or another. We are descendants of this tradition through blood and intellect, it would be incredibly stupid for us to let that go.
As for the BOC, I still don't know what their hymns are or what they sound like. Perhaps Fr. Peter can enlighten us further.
[quote author=coptic_deacon link=topic=13508.msg157682#msg157682 date=1342338187] We are already suffering an identity crisis, and it will get worse if we don't act soon.
Yeah we are, with many people talking about our Coptic faith. Our Coptic traditions. Our Coptic Church. I sometimes wonder if the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria did cease to exist at some point in history, replaced by a new denomination called the Coptic Church, with ambitions of becoming a rival Catholic Church, spreading her holy culture throughout the world.
And I wish to add that having studied music for many years I can say with certainty that most musical traditions come from a root in Ancient Egyptian music, in one way or another.
Just like all language derives from Coptic, such as the well known example of the word "kimono" from 'My Big Fat Coptic Wedding'. Clearly all other cultures are inferior and must be enlightened with holy Copticism.
[quote author=jonathan_ link=topic=13508.msg157690#msg157690 date=1342367022] [quote author=coptic_deacon link=topic=13508.msg157682#msg157682 date=1342338187] We are already suffering an identity crisis, and it will get worse if we don't act soon.
Yeah we are, with many people talking about our Coptic faith. Our Coptic traditions. Our Coptic Church. I sometimes wonder if the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria did cease to exist at some point in history, replaced by a new denomination called the Coptic Church, with ambitions of becoming a rival Catholic Church, spreading her holy culture throughout the world.
And I wish to add that having studied music for many years I can say with certainty that most musical traditions come from a root in Ancient Egyptian music, in one way or another.
Just like all language derives from Coptic, such as the well known example of the word "kimono" from 'My Big Fat Coptic Wedding'. Clearly all other cultures are inferior and must be enlightened with holy Copticism. *Thumbs up*
[quote author=billious link=topic=13508.msg157719#msg157719 date=1342404968] Not sure if this website helps.
It has over 100 english songs produced by the coptic orthodox church
www.orthodoxsongs.org
God Bless
While this may be a useful resource, with many good songs, it is very much not a good resource. There are tares mixed in with the wheat, and one would have to be very knowledgeable and mature to pick between them. Maybe some of our more senior priests could compile a good list form this site, but I wouldn't want any of us to try. They have "Amazing Grace" and "Shout to the Lord". You can't get much worse than that.
Comments
I wouldn't trust something just because the RC's use it... most traditional RC's are disgusted with the hymnals in use in their Churches in North America, and that's before considering the massively different approach to spirituality and theology. But older stuff, anything pre-schism, up to many very early Protestant hymns, can be approached with discernment, and the better ones taken, often with some small modification to make it fit better.
For tunes, some of the hymns in that book are sung in their traditional tunes. Many are fit to Coptic tunes.
Here, for example, is an ancient Western Orthodox hymn being sung to an ancient Western Orthodox monastic chant..
http://www.llpb.us/MP3Hymns/SeasonalPropers/302 1 Hymn, Come Thou Redeemer.MP3
This thread is for those who (1) agree that Protestant songs are not ideal (at least; a stronger word could be inserted here) for use in Church and (2) do not stand against Coptic/Eastern hymnology being supplemented in our churches in the West. If you disagree, there have been many other threads on this in the past; you can open another one, but I predict it will quickly be locked.
I think those who agree with the above, such as Fr Peter, have been very firm in their stance against inappropriate positions, such as both the use of Protestant songs and Coptic ethnocentrism, but have not prosecuted a clear alternative.
This thread, I hope, will do that. I hope it becomes a library of resources for the establishment of truly Western and truly Orthodox churches in the lands of immigration. Perhaps, down the track, the contents could even be converted into a web page on this site. It's clear I have high hopes!
I feel this is important, as everyone seems to be making their own rules as they go along. Also, we can't tell people that Protestant music is not appropriate and then not provide alternatives; they will and are simply ignoring us, since Coptic chant may not necessarily appeal to the Western ear.
Some starter questions:
What hymns can be used? (I've heard O come O come Emmanuel is good because it is the words of an ancient Orthodox canon, but that's only one hymn)
What tunes can be used - I recall Fr Peter mentioning that the BOC is modifying some of its tunes? What is the process for this?
How much of a resource would the Catholic church be in this, since it is the closest Western institution to Orthodoxy?
And I would also like to consider what the British Orthodox and OCA (American Orthodox), can contribute to this? I know Fr Peter does not like BOC liturgies recorded, but we have a lot to learn from an institution which is both thoroughly British (Anglo Saxon) and Orthodox. What are their liturgies like, etc?
My Dear friend,
I understand your concern in regard to this issue. I am considered by my own friends to be a fanatic of sorts, always in defence of Egyptian/Coptic identity. However, there is a difference in my perspective from many other 'fanatics'. Many others argue that we must preserve our tradition for the sake of preservation alone. This, while admirable, is not a sufficient argument for preservation. My own belief is as follows. While there are some songs and chants in other denominations that do not contradict our own doctrine, we cannot afford to give them a portal by which they can infiltrate our church. These are all people who have totally different ideas about christianity than we do. They have all persecuted us at some point. They consider us heretics. By taking in some of their chants it gives the impression that we are weak and have no identity of our own. Once that happens, who knows what garbage they'll end up leaving to us, whether it be inappropriate customs, beliefs, or doctrine.
I urge you for the love of God to consider this, because there are people like me who are willing to take this issue onto the intellectual battlefield of thermonuclear war (I kid you not).
And do you mean that other Orthodox Traditions and local communities do not have the same faith as the Orthodox Church of Alexandria?
[glow=blue,2,100]test123[/glow]
[quote author=qawe link=topic=13508.msg157556#msg157556 date=1342007489]
This thread is for those who (1) agree that Protestant songs are not ideal (at least; a stronger word could be inserted here) for use in Church and (2) do not stand against Coptic/Eastern hymnology being supplemented in our churches in the West. If you disagree, there have been many other threads on this in the past; you can open another one, but I predict it will quickly be locked.
I think those who agree with the above, such as Fr Peter, have been very firm in their stance against inappropriate positions, such as both the use of Protestant songs and Coptic ethnocentrism, but have not prosecuted a clear alternative.
This thread, I hope, will do that. I hope it becomes a library of resources for the establishment of truly Western and truly Orthodox churches in the lands of immigration. Perhaps, down the track, the contents could even be converted into a web page on this site. It's clear I have high hopes!
I feel this is important, as everyone seems to be making their own rules as they go along. Also, we can't tell people that Protestant music is not appropriate and then not provide alternatives; they will and are simply ignoring us, since Coptic chant may not necessarily appeal to the Western ear.
Some starter questions:
What hymns can be used? (I've heard O come O come Emmanuel is good because it is the words of an ancient Orthodox canon, but that's only one hymn)
What tunes can be used - I recall Fr Peter mentioning that the BOC is modifying some of its tunes? What is the process for this?
How much of a resource would the Catholic church be in this, since it is the closest Western institution to Orthodoxy?
And I would also like to consider what the British Orthodox and OCA (American Orthodox), can contribute to this? I know Fr Peter does not like BOC liturgies recorded, but we have a lot to learn from an institution which is both thoroughly British (Anglo Saxon) and Orthodox. What are their liturgies like, etc?
My Dear friend,
I understand your concern in regard to this issue. I am considered by my own friends to be a fanatic of sorts, always in defence of Egyptian/Coptic identity. However, there is a difference in my perspective from many other 'fanatics'. Many others argue that we must preserve our tradition for the sake of preservation alone. This, while admirable, is not a sufficient argument for preservation. My own belief is as follows. While there are some songs and chants in other denominations that do not contradict our own doctrine, we cannot afford to give them a portal by which they can infiltrate our church. These are all people who have totally different ideas about christianity than we do. They have all persecuted us at some point. They consider us heretics. By taking in some of their chants it gives the impression that we are weak and have no identity of our own. Once that happens, who knows what garbage they'll end up leaving to us, whether it be inappropriate customs, beliefs, or doctrine.
I urge you for the love of God to consider this, because there are people like me who are willing to take this issue onto the intellectual battlefield of thermonuclear war (I kid you not).
Westerners from before the schism had a very different view of Christianity?
It is necessary, it seems to me, for the Christian to seek to enter into the best of culture, and that culture which expresses Christian truth most effectively. This always requires a degree of effort.
For instance, it is not entirely normal to stand in worship for two hours in the West. But this is not a practice which is unacceptable to Western people, it is just something that modern trends in micro-attention keeping do not encourage. A Christian needs to learn to be attentive in worship for extended periods.
Music and Language are at the core of a culture. It seems to me to be necessary to both extend the experience of music and language as a vehicle for spirituality and theology, and also to maintain the cultural integrity of that music and language.
Some will say that there is no Western culture, or that it is not worth much and cannot communicate our Orthodox Faith. This seems to me to exhibit a great ignorance of Western culture, and especially from my point of view, the English culture both in Latin and English forms.
This is rather a long way of saying that I do not believe that Orthodox should be looking at contemporary forms of music and hymnology. There is an attraction here, but it is the attraction of the sugary candy. There is a quick rush of emotion and feeling but no depth. This should be avoided, just as our Liturgical forms avoid it. There is an effort which is required to enter into all ancient and Orthodox liturgy. Even in my own congregation which uses English there is a need for attention and concentration.
There are other non-Orthodox groups which have developed short and comtemporary liturgical forms. They rather leave me cold because they seem to have adopted the modern cultural values of being short, not requiring a lot of time and attention, and they are either chatty in their language, of faddish.
So I guess what I am saying is that I prefer to restrict myself to Western forms which are guaranteed in their Orthodoxy, both according to music and text. There are also later translations of Eastern texts set to formal Western hymn tunes. These are sometimes useful and acceptable (IMHO).
For instance, in the British Orthodox tradition we use the Liturgy of St James which has a well known processional hymn which has been translated as 'Let all mortal flesh keep silence'. We sing this during the Great Entrance when You can hear the tune here...
http://open.spotify.com/track/2yEGCQuIh3G2EdQ19zuzfy
This seems to me to be firmly in the tradition of the Orthodox form and the music remains free of emotionalism, while of course having feeling. It is a text from the 4th century Liturgy of St James, translated from Greek in more recent times and set to a medieval melody.
This is all in regard to anything actually used in the Liturgy itself, which must be most carefully protected. Personally I would have no problems with the Doxologies of the Raising of Incense being translated into the more formal English which the British Orthodox use (as indeed we have done), and being set to a similar, ancient Western Christian set of melodies. The ancient Western Orthodoxy has the different tones, for instance. These are no less Orthodox than anything produced in the East.
Outside of the Liturgy I am afraid that I am absolutely against the use anywhere of modern Evangelical songs in any context of worship. Where two or three are gathered they should NOT use these songs. If someone wants to listen to them driving in a car then that is something they should discuss with their FOC.
I would perhaps be willing to discuss the use of some Taize chant in an informal setting. But I am not absolutely for or against it. Taize is a Western religious community that has produced some modern chant set to ancient texts such as this...
http://open.spotify.com/track/1hyNWC1ZY209bjoVHu0ERX
http://open.spotify.com/track/2Z8M8qiKm7GakKyO7A2ZnB
http://open.spotify.com/track/52O9xYMDyzyRZRjEzz3Yr7
My own son sings these Taize chants at his school. I do not think that I would generally feel uncomfortable with many of these songs. Not least because they are rooted in ancient texts and litanies etc, but are perhaps trying to set ancient chant melodies into a modern form. I do not personally want that more modern form to intrude into the Liturgy, but it may have a place in informal settings.
What I am interested in myself is the setting of ancient hymn texts (and there is a vast collection) to simple Western settings so that they can be used in informal contexts. Does anyone hear know the hymns of St Severus? Yet they have been translated into English prose and are just waiting for a faithful soul to transform them into hymns in English. Normally this would require the development of a number of simple tunes, and the texts would be set into poetic language so that they fitted the appropriate tune.
Simplicity of tune, lack of emotionalism, the primacy of the text and the ability for all to participate. These are important factors in my own thinking.
Here is 'The Day of Resurrection', for instance, a text written by John of Damascus in the 8th century.
http://open.spotify.com/track/66vylpgGfkZdCNxfc5pRCM
He also translated the hymn that was sung when a fragment of the true cross entered into Poitiers in 568 AD, composed by Venantius Fortunatus. The text is as follows, and seems to me, as with much of the ancient Western Orthodox tradition, to be of comparable quality with much of that of the East..
The royal banners forward go,
The cross shines forth in mystic glow;
Where He in flesh, our flesh Who made,
Our sentence bore, our ransom paid.
Where deep for us the spear was dyed,
Life’s torrent rushing from His side,
To wash us in that precious flood,
Where mingled water flowed, and blood.
Fulfilled is all that David told
In true prophetic song of old,
Amidst the nations, God, saith he,
Hath reigned and triumphed from the tree.
O tree of beauty, tree of light!
O tree with royal purple dight!
Elect on whose triumphal breast
Those holy limbs should find their rest.
Blest tree, whose chosen branches bore
The wealth that did the world restore,
The price of humankind to pay,
And spoil the spoiler of his prey.
Upon its arms, like balance true,
He weighed the price for sinners due,
The price which none but He could pay,
And spoiled the spoiler of his prey.
O cross, our one reliance, hail!
Still may thy power with us avail
To give new virtue to the saint,
And pardon to the penitent.
To Thee, eternal Three in One,
Let homage meet by all be done:
As by the cross Thou dost restore,
So rule and guide us evermore.
An ancient melody can be heard here sung in English.
http://open.spotify.com/track/0qEZUZiZ2wDqYOqm0aGjik
I would never have a problem with this hymn and melody being used, for instance. I think that both the words and melody are entirely Orthodox and beautiful.
And I wish to add that having studied music for many years I can say with certainty that most musical traditions come from a root in Ancient Egyptian music, in one way or another. We are descendants of this tradition through blood and intellect, it would be incredibly stupid for us to let that go.
As for the BOC, I still don't know what their hymns are or what they sound like. Perhaps Fr. Peter can enlighten us further.
Thank You
We are already suffering an identity crisis, and it will get worse if we don't act soon.
Yeah we are, with many people talking about our Coptic faith. Our Coptic traditions. Our Coptic Church. I sometimes wonder if the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria did cease to exist at some point in history, replaced by a new denomination called the Coptic Church, with ambitions of becoming a rival Catholic Church, spreading her holy culture throughout the world. Just like all language derives from Coptic, such as the well known example of the word "kimono" from 'My Big Fat Coptic Wedding'. Clearly all other cultures are inferior and must be enlightened with holy Copticism.
[quote author=coptic_deacon link=topic=13508.msg157682#msg157682 date=1342338187]
We are already suffering an identity crisis, and it will get worse if we don't act soon.
Yeah we are, with many people talking about our Coptic faith. Our Coptic traditions. Our Coptic Church. I sometimes wonder if the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria did cease to exist at some point in history, replaced by a new denomination called the Coptic Church, with ambitions of becoming a rival Catholic Church, spreading her holy culture throughout the world. Just like all language derives from Coptic, such as the well known example of the word "kimono" from 'My Big Fat Coptic Wedding'. Clearly all other cultures are inferior and must be enlightened with holy Copticism.
*Thumbs up*
It has over 100 english songs produced by the coptic orthodox church
www.orthodoxsongs.org
God Bless
Not sure if this website helps.
It has over 100 english songs produced by the coptic orthodox church
www.orthodoxsongs.org
God Bless
While this may be a useful resource, with many good songs, it is very much not a good resource. There are tares mixed in with the wheat, and one would have to be very knowledgeable and mature to pick between them. Maybe some of our more senior priests could compile a good list form this site, but I wouldn't want any of us to try. They have "Amazing Grace" and "Shout to the Lord". You can't get much worse than that.