For what its worth, many clergy have realized the problems with this hymn and refuse to sing it because it can be theologically troubling. In fact, Father Athanasius Iskander and Father Shenouda Maher have come up with alternative verses with the same tune in order to preserve the popular tune
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=5598.msg92173#msg92173 date=1215021888] For what its worth, many clergy have realized the problems with this hymn and refuse to sing it because it can be theologically troubling. In fact, Father Athanasius Iskander and Father Shenouda Maher have come up with alternative verses with the same tune in order to preserve the popular tune
Well that's good to know Is it the Kerios verse? I just feel that we are not Greek, and perhaps someone greek would interpret it differently. I know when I saw this verse, I knew what they meant.. but.. given the verse, imagine adding our entire faith in just a small space?? It would ruin the verse.
So, please tell us, what is the alternative they have proposed??
Ok, i think there is some issues regarding this hymn. First, would be the fact that the actual hymn itself written in greek has incorrect grammar. This was most likely caused by the fact that most of the muallem did not review the words to the hymn and do not know greek well. Another example would be apetjeek evol, isthermagi, etc..
Second thing is that, people are looking at english translations. This is ludicrious because it makes no sense to translate a hymn which makes no sense. So it just causes more confusion. Plus, if you wanted to truly understand the meaning of the hymns, then i recommend you learn coptic (or greek). The reason being is that once a hymn gets translated, it naturally loses part of its meaning when put into another language. Basically, it wont be as precise as it was ( I am talking about the translation).
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=5598.msg92197#msg92197 date=1215035274] Ok, i think there is some issues regarding this hymn. First, would be the fact that the actual hymn itself written in greek has incorrect grammar. This was most likely caused by the fact that most of the muallem did not review the words to the hymn and do not know greek well. Another example would be apetjeek evol, isthermagi, etc..
Second thing is that, people are looking at english translations. This is ludicrious because it makes no sense to translate a hymn which makes no sense. So it just causes more confusion. Plus, if you wanted to truly understand the meaning of the hymns, then i recommend you learn coptic (or greek). The reason being is that once a hymn gets translated, it naturally loses part of its meaning when put into another language. Basically, it wont be as precise as it was ( I am talking about the translation).
GB Tony
Tony, I wasn't aware the actual GREEK GRAMMER is incorrect. Of course, if that's the case, u are translating something incorrect to English, it will be worse. Come to think of it, i gave this hymn to a friend of mine who was greek AGES ago, and they didnt understand it. Some of it made sense.. the rest didn't.
Yes i had a feeling there was some confusion. When i said the grammar does not make sense, i was reffering to the actual greek grammar. It has lots of grammatical errors. From what i know, the HCOC's choir director (Albeir Mikhail) has sat down with a coptic/greek specialist concerning this hymn to see if they can fix up the grammar but they were unable because its basically beyond fixing. These leaves the church with three options...
1) We either continue chanting this hymn as if there is nothing wrong with it at all. Although this would not exactly be the ideal thing here to do; however, many people love the tune so some will be stubborn and say it anyway.
2) The synod could agree to have this hymn "revised" and recreated in a sense with different words, although this might not even happen at all just like with other cases such as apteek evol and others.
3) Creat a medeha or tamgeed with the same tune as this hymn. This madeha must be approved by some source like a bishop of a doicese somewhere.
This is a prime example of how we just sing songs, and do not understand what we are saying!!! I mean, its ridiculous. And then when I raise the issue that we do not know Coptic NOR greek well enough, i get criticised and people respond saying "HEY!! ITS OUR HERITAGE.. WE CANNOT LOSE THIS LANGAUGE"
We need to understand what we are singing and spend more time praying than singing. If we focus on singing just tunes cos they sound nice without contemplating on the meaning, then what is the difference between doing this, and just listening to the radio? Are we gaining anything??
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou> Ouhioi etkyt ejwi okoun @ alla [i`nhyt je ]ase `nte naibwhem `nrem`n<ymi nai amoni `njincaji euc,ymwn ouoh ni`problyma twn ebol `nceerermynin ebolqen `nacpi `nrem`n<ymi - e;be vai ]meu`i je anon `mpe`snouj ebol `nnibwhem ie hwc erwou qen nenkeacpi[/coptic] Edifying discussion at least for me, but be careful because a lot of Coptic hymns possess figurative speech and problems arise on translating them from the Coptic language - that is why I think that we souldn't discard these hymns or sing them in other languages. [coptic]Maren[ont `ntenkattou ouoh wnq `nqytou : oulogicmoc `f`sswpi pe je anon `mpenka] `nouon niben teten`proceu,y ouoh je Pi=p=n=a =e=;=b ouonhwou ebol eron qen `tqa`e[/coptic] Let's try to understand them and live them also; one argument can be that we don't even understand every thing we pray for and the Holy Spirit reveals them to us in the end. [coptic]Anok pe oube ]ermynia `nte nibwhem `nrem`n<ymi je ]meu`i je noumetjere camny tenmetka] ne qen outajro[/coptic] I am against the translation of the Coptic hymns as I think that their meanings are beyond our understanding surely [coptic]'ynou ]ouws `n]sini je ouon ebolqen ;ynou `ntef]kocmycic erwon `nje nibwhem cecaji qen `pcer nimycturion =e=;=b - ]mev`i je on ,ere `fnaswpi pihouit `mbwhem je efcwk eratf `nje `k`cmarwout @ my pai cohi vai?[/coptic] Now I would like to ask if someone from you would put in order those meaning the hymns that are said during distribution of the Holy Sacraments - I guess [coptic]on ,ere [/coptic] will be the first one as it follows [coptic]`k`cmarwout[/coptic]: is that correct? [coptic]V] efecmou erwten tyrou ouoh `mperer`pwbs `mmon qen teten`proceu,y[/coptic] May God bless you all and don't forget us in your prayers [coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5598.msg92234#msg92234 date=1215119786] [coptic]'ynou ]ouws `n]sini je ouon ebolqen ;ynou `ntef]kocmycic erwon `nje nibwhem cecaji qen `pcer nimycturion =e=;=b - ]mev`i je on ,ere `fnaswpi pihouit `mbwhem je efcwk eratf `nje `k`cmarwout @ my pai cohi vai?[/coptic] Now I would like to ask if someone from you would put in order those meaning the hymns that are said during distribution of the Holy Sacraments - I guess [coptic]on ,ere [/coptic] will be the first one as it follows [coptic]`k`cmarwout[/coptic]: is that correct? [coptic]V] efecmou erwten tyrou ouoh `mperer`pwbs `mmon qen teten`proceu,y[/coptic] May God bless you all and don't forget us in your prayers [coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
that order you are talking about is the one for glorifications, in vespers and maybe in communion time too (i am not starting that post about saying tamgeed during communion again....PLEASE don't comment on that here). during communion, you have Psalm 150, [coptic]`k`cmarw`out[/coptic], [coptic]Pi`wik[/coptic], and then you have the many other communion hymns that go with the season.
I'm asking in the thread "Is it DANGEROUS to pray in a language we do not completely understand"
* What are the effects of this?? * What happens when we do this often on a daily basis? * What happens when we say stuff daily without knowing the meaning exactly - just out of repetition?? What does that do to our spiritual lives??? Even to our health of mind??
Nowhere did i suggest getting rid of Coptic. But I feel that praying in Coptic inhibits me from prayer because I don't understand the language. Why should I learn the language for?!!! ITS DEAD!!! A Church is beyond language. Our faith goes beyond languages.
I would prefer if Egypt was COMPLETELY Coptic. If arabic wasn't even part of our language. I'd have loved this situation. But its not. Unfortunately, arabic IS the national language of Egypt. Its what we all understand now. OK??? Is it THAT hard to understand!?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5598.msg92278#msg92278 date=1215186745] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5598.msg92261#msg92261 date=1215167510] Hi Ophadece,
OK.. welldone, u speak Coptic. I don't. I speak French,English and Arabic.
I think in any of these languages.
U mentioned a very valid point: Translating Coptic to any language results in inaccuracies. I couldnt agree more.
if you agree with this, than what's with the "Is Coptic Dangerous for us?" thread.
you sound like your are condemning Coptic......but what, you also said again that we have to keep it. YOU'RE TOO CONFUSING.
So, basically, if translating Coptic into English results in inaccuracies, then its best to JUST have hymns/doxologies IN ENGLISH.. made for the ENglish language, written by theologians, bishops etc...
OK.. welldone, u speak Coptic. I don't. I speak French,English and Arabic.
I think in any of these languages.
U mentioned a very valid point: Translating Coptic to any language results in inaccuracies. I couldnt agree more.
if you agree with this, than what's with the "Is Coptic Dangerous for us?" thread.
you sound like your are condemning Coptic......but what, you also said again that we have to keep it. YOU'RE TOO CONFUSING.
So, basically, if translating Coptic into English results in inaccuracies, then its best to JUST have hymns/doxologies IN ENGLISH.. made for the ENglish language, written by theologians, bishops etc...
inaccuracies doesn't mean it's fully wrong. using this as a reason is again, unintelligent. why. becasue you would be giving me a fake one. you would be like the muslim who is telling us that the Holy Bible is not true because it was translated into many languages.......yes, it is the same. Because WE ALL KNOW that when something is written in a language, it's hard to have the same exact meaning when translated. DO you wanna tell me you wanna make a new bible that MAKES SENSE?!!.......I'll wait for your looooong answer Vassilios. maybe as always, you can disproof what i say in your confusing, little english, words.
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou> e;be Myna@ ]meu`i je ];wt nemak ejen `pjinsib] `nte nidoxoloji`a nem [anafora bwhem nem toukocmycic[/coptic] To Mina: I think I agree with you on the difference between glorifications and Liturgy hymns and their order [coptic]e;be Bac@ ]erapologin je eierouw `nat,wlem emasw @ [i`nhyt ejen pilogicmoc `nte pijincaji euc,ymwn ceercymunin an - oukelogicmoc `cnaswpi je saucaji `nje naio] hancaji qen `nacpi de> anon eretennaer`fmeu`i `m`fry] etaucaji (oumioc je paiwt nem tamau aucaji nouentoly qen rem`nArapi`a> anok ]naer`fmeu`i `mmwou qen rem`nArapi`a nemyi eieswpi qen Britanni`a `mmon eier`fmeu`i `mmwou qen `nremBritanni`a)[/coptic] To Vas: I apologise for replying so late: be careful of this argument of figurative speech that could not be translated - another argument would be that the words our fathers said in one language, we will remember them exactly as they were said (similarly my father and my mother gave me advice in Arabic taht I will always remember in Arabic although I am living in Britain, not remembering them in English!!!) [coptic]hina maren`iri oumwc nem nibwhem `nrem`n<ymi ouoh comc erwou kata `vry] (qen oume;myi `n;wou ne nencaji `nte nenio]) eretenfi qen nenhyt je nimona,oc `nsorp auareh epinah] `nor;odoxon hiten `pjinhwc `nnibwhem `mpoury][/coptic] So let's do the same with the Coptic hymns and treat them as such (in fact they were really the words of our fathers) bearing in mind that the early monks kept the Orthodox faith through chanting the hymns as they are. [coptic]V] efe`cmou erwten tyrou - `mperer`pwbs qen teten`proceu,y[/coptic] God bless you all - don't forget us in your prayers [coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
Comments
Everyone loves him.
God is really with this man. Im glad u appreciate him Mina.. its hard hearing that he's in the USA and not with us here in Europe.
For what its worth, many clergy have realized the problems with this hymn and refuse to sing it because it can be theologically troubling. In fact, Father Athanasius Iskander and Father Shenouda Maher have come up with alternative verses with the same tune in order to preserve the popular tune
Well that's good to know
Is it the Kerios verse? I just feel that we are not Greek, and perhaps someone greek would interpret it differently. I know when I saw this verse, I knew what they meant.. but.. given the verse, imagine adding our entire faith in just a small space?? It would ruin the verse.
So, please tell us, what is the alternative they have proposed??
Second thing is that, people are looking at english translations. This is ludicrious because it makes no sense to translate a hymn which makes no sense. So it just causes more confusion. Plus, if you wanted to truly understand the meaning of the hymns, then i recommend you learn coptic (or greek). The reason being is that once a hymn gets translated, it naturally loses part of its meaning when put into another language. Basically, it wont be as precise as it was ( I am talking about the translation).
GB
Tony
Ok, i think there is some issues regarding this hymn. First, would be the fact that the actual hymn itself written in greek has incorrect grammar. This was most likely caused by the fact that most of the muallem did not review the words to the hymn and do not know greek well. Another example would be apetjeek evol, isthermagi, etc..
Second thing is that, people are looking at english translations. This is ludicrious because it makes no sense to translate a hymn which makes no sense. So it just causes more confusion. Plus, if you wanted to truly understand the meaning of the hymns, then i recommend you learn coptic (or greek). The reason being is that once a hymn gets translated, it naturally loses part of its meaning when put into another language. Basically, it wont be as precise as it was ( I am talking about the translation).
GB
Tony
Tony, I wasn't aware the actual GREEK GRAMMER is incorrect. Of course, if that's the case, u are translating something incorrect to English, it will be worse.
Come to think of it, i gave this hymn to a friend of mine who was greek AGES ago, and they didnt understand it. Some of it made sense.. the rest didn't.
What shall we do? just cut it off our Church?
1) We either continue chanting this hymn as if there is nothing wrong with it at all. Although this would not exactly be the ideal thing here to do; however, many people love the tune so some will be stubborn and say it anyway.
2) The synod could agree to have this hymn "revised" and recreated in a sense with different words, although this might not even happen at all just like with other cases such as apteek evol and others.
3) Creat a medeha or tamgeed with the same tune as this hymn. This madeha must be approved by some source like a bishop of a doicese somewhere.
GB
Tony
We need to understand what we are singing and spend more time praying than singing. If we focus on singing just tunes cos they sound nice without contemplating on the meaning, then what is the difference between doing this, and just listening to the radio? Are we gaining anything??
Ouhioi etkyt ejwi okoun @ alla [i`nhyt je ]ase `nte naibwhem `nrem`n<ymi nai amoni `njincaji euc,ymwn ouoh ni`problyma twn ebol `nceerermynin ebolqen `nacpi `nrem`n<ymi - e;be vai ]meu`i je anon `mpe`snouj ebol `nnibwhem ie hwc erwou qen nenkeacpi[/coptic]
Edifying discussion at least for me, but be careful because a lot of Coptic hymns possess figurative speech and problems arise on translating them from the Coptic language - that is why I think that we souldn't discard these hymns or sing them in other languages.
[coptic]Maren[ont `ntenkattou ouoh wnq `nqytou : oulogicmoc `f`sswpi pe je anon `mpenka] `nouon niben teten`proceu,y ouoh je Pi=p=n=a =e=;=b ouonhwou ebol eron qen `tqa`e[/coptic]
Let's try to understand them and live them also; one argument can be that we don't even understand every thing we pray for and the Holy Spirit reveals them to us in the end.
[coptic]Anok pe oube ]ermynia `nte nibwhem `nrem`n<ymi je ]meu`i je noumetjere camny tenmetka] ne qen outajro[/coptic]
I am against the translation of the Coptic hymns as I think that their meanings are beyond our understanding surely
[coptic]'ynou ]ouws `n]sini je ouon ebolqen ;ynou `ntef]kocmycic erwon `nje nibwhem cecaji qen `pcer nimycturion =e=;=b - ]mev`i je on ,ere `fnaswpi pihouit `mbwhem je efcwk eratf `nje `k`cmarwout @ my pai cohi vai?[/coptic]
Now I would like to ask if someone from you would put in order those meaning the hymns that are said during distribution of the Holy Sacraments - I guess [coptic]on ,ere [/coptic] will be the first one as it follows [coptic]`k`cmarwout[/coptic]: is that correct?
[coptic]V] efecmou erwten tyrou ouoh `mperer`pwbs `mmon qen teten`proceu,y[/coptic]
May God bless you all and don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]'ynou ]ouws `n]sini je ouon ebolqen ;ynou `ntef]kocmycic erwon `nje nibwhem cecaji qen `pcer nimycturion =e=;=b - ]mev`i je on ,ere `fnaswpi pihouit `mbwhem je efcwk eratf `nje `k`cmarwout @ my pai cohi vai?[/coptic]
Now I would like to ask if someone from you would put in order those meaning the hymns that are said during distribution of the Holy Sacraments - I guess [coptic]on ,ere [/coptic] will be the first one as it follows [coptic]`k`cmarwout[/coptic]: is that correct?
[coptic]V] efecmou erwten tyrou ouoh `mperer`pwbs `mmon qen teten`proceu,y[/coptic]
May God bless you all and don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
that order you are talking about is the one for glorifications, in vespers and maybe in communion time too (i am not starting that post about saying tamgeed during communion again....PLEASE don't comment on that here).
during communion, you have Psalm 150, [coptic]`k`cmarw`out[/coptic], [coptic]Pi`wik[/coptic], and then you have the many other communion hymns that go with the season.
OK.. welldone, u speak Coptic. I don't. I speak French,English and Arabic.
I think in any of these languages.
U mentioned a very valid point: Translating Coptic to any language results in inaccuracies. I couldnt agree more.
Hi Ophadece,
OK.. welldone, u speak Coptic. I don't. I speak French,English and Arabic.
I think in any of these languages.
U mentioned a very valid point: Translating Coptic to any language results in inaccuracies. I couldnt agree more.
if you agree with this, than what's with the "Is Coptic Dangerous for us?" thread.
you sound like your are condemning Coptic......but what, you also said again that we have to keep it. YOU'RE TOO CONFUSING.
Read the thread again!!
I'm asking in the thread "Is it DANGEROUS to pray in a language we do not completely understand"
* What are the effects of this??
* What happens when we do this often on a daily basis?
* What happens when we say stuff daily without knowing the meaning exactly - just out of repetition?? What does that do to our spiritual lives??? Even to our health of mind??
Nowhere did i suggest getting rid of Coptic. But I feel that praying in Coptic inhibits me from prayer because I don't understand the language. Why should I learn the language for?!!! ITS DEAD!!! A Church is beyond language. Our faith goes beyond languages.
I would prefer if Egypt was COMPLETELY Coptic. If arabic wasn't even part of our language. I'd have loved this situation. But its not. Unfortunately, arabic IS the national language of Egypt. Its what we all understand now. OK??? Is it THAT hard to understand!?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5598.msg92261#msg92261 date=1215167510]
Hi Ophadece,
OK.. welldone, u speak Coptic. I don't. I speak French,English and Arabic.
I think in any of these languages.
U mentioned a very valid point: Translating Coptic to any language results in inaccuracies. I couldnt agree more.
if you agree with this, than what's with the "Is Coptic Dangerous for us?" thread.
you sound like your are condemning Coptic......but what, you also said again that we have to keep it. YOU'RE TOO CONFUSING.
So, basically, if translating Coptic into English results in inaccuracies, then its best to JUST have hymns/doxologies IN ENGLISH.. made for the ENglish language, written by theologians, bishops etc...
[quote author=minagir link=topic=5598.msg92278#msg92278 date=1215186745]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=5598.msg92261#msg92261 date=1215167510]
Hi Ophadece,
OK.. welldone, u speak Coptic. I don't. I speak French,English and Arabic.
I think in any of these languages.
U mentioned a very valid point: Translating Coptic to any language results in inaccuracies. I couldnt agree more.
if you agree with this, than what's with the "Is Coptic Dangerous for us?" thread.
you sound like your are condemning Coptic......but what, you also said again that we have to keep it. YOU'RE TOO CONFUSING.
So, basically, if translating Coptic into English results in inaccuracies, then its best to JUST have hymns/doxologies IN ENGLISH.. made for the ENglish language, written by theologians, bishops etc...
inaccuracies doesn't mean it's fully wrong. using this as a reason is again, unintelligent. why. becasue you would be giving me a fake one. you would be like the muslim who is telling us that the Holy Bible is not true because it was translated into many languages.......yes, it is the same. Because WE ALL KNOW that when something is written in a language, it's hard to have the same exact meaning when translated. DO you wanna tell me you wanna make a new bible that MAKES SENSE?!!.......I'll wait for your looooong answer Vassilios. maybe as always, you can disproof what i say in your confusing, little english, words.
e;be Myna@ ]meu`i je ];wt nemak ejen `pjinsib] `nte nidoxoloji`a nem [anafora bwhem nem toukocmycic[/coptic]
To Mina: I think I agree with you on the difference between glorifications and Liturgy hymns and their order
[coptic]e;be Bac@ ]erapologin je eierouw `nat,wlem emasw @ [i`nhyt ejen pilogicmoc `nte pijincaji euc,ymwn ceercymunin an - oukelogicmoc `cnaswpi je saucaji `nje naio] hancaji qen `nacpi de> anon eretennaer`fmeu`i `m`fry] etaucaji (oumioc je paiwt nem tamau aucaji nouentoly qen rem`nArapi`a> anok ]naer`fmeu`i `mmwou qen rem`nArapi`a nemyi eieswpi qen Britanni`a `mmon eier`fmeu`i `mmwou qen `nremBritanni`a)[/coptic]
To Vas: I apologise for replying so late: be careful of this argument of figurative speech that could not be translated - another argument would be that the words our fathers said in one language, we will remember them exactly as they were said (similarly my father and my mother gave me advice in Arabic taht I will always remember in Arabic although I am living in Britain, not remembering them in English!!!)
[coptic]hina maren`iri oumwc nem nibwhem `nrem`n<ymi ouoh comc erwou kata `vry] (qen oume;myi `n;wou ne nencaji `nte nenio]) eretenfi qen nenhyt je nimona,oc `nsorp auareh epinah] `nor;odoxon hiten `pjinhwc `nnibwhem `mpoury][/coptic]
So let's do the same with the Coptic hymns and treat them as such (in fact they were really the words of our fathers) bearing in mind that the early monks kept the Orthodox faith through chanting the hymns as they are.
[coptic]V] efe`cmou erwten tyrou - `mperer`pwbs qen teten`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you all - don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]