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Arba3 el nakous (Verses of ... ?)
Dear all,
I would like to reply to my question if you have an idea. I know we refer to the hymns said in Vespers and Matins as "verses of cymbals", as the Arabic translation of "nakos" in this context means the "daf"; but I think on either youthbishopric.com, or copticheritage.org, I noticed that they translated it to "verses of the bell"; the word "nakos" in Arabic can also mean "bell". That started me thinking, does that mean that they refer to it this way, as this hymn is usually sung in Matins, and maybe during ringing the bells to wake the faithful up and encourage them to attend the Mass?
That is very interesting, and I hope someone do have the answer.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
I would like to reply to my question if you have an idea. I know we refer to the hymns said in Vespers and Matins as "verses of cymbals", as the Arabic translation of "nakos" in this context means the "daf"; but I think on either youthbishopric.com, or copticheritage.org, I noticed that they translated it to "verses of the bell"; the word "nakos" in Arabic can also mean "bell". That started me thinking, does that mean that they refer to it this way, as this hymn is usually sung in Matins, and maybe during ringing the bells to wake the faithful up and encourage them to attend the Mass?
That is very interesting, and I hope someone do have the answer.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Comments
I have a question.
every vesper we say the verses for the next day. for example we say the verses for joyful days then any other verses. but only in sturdy vesper we say the watos introduction.
does any one know why?
Dear all,
I would like to reply to my question if you have an idea. I know we refer to the hymns said in Vespers and Matins as "verses of cymbals", as the Arabic translation of "nakos" in this context means the "daf"; but I think on either youthbishopric.com, or copticheritage.org, I noticed that they translated it to "verses of the bell"; the word "nakos" in Arabic can also mean "bell". That started me thinking, does that mean that they refer to it this way, as this hymn is usually sung in Matins, and maybe during ringing the bells to wake the faithful up and encourage them to attend the Mass?
That is very interesting, and I hope someone do have the answer.
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
the litiral meaning of Naqos is bells. but we use the source of psalm 150, where it says "Praise Him with pleasant sounding cymbals."
nad here it really doesn't mean any diffrence. the time that bells remind people of liturgy is when you rinf the bells, 41 times, or as we say the 41 kerie leisons before the procession of the Lamb. becasue that's the right time of the beging of the liturgy. the time we say the verses of cymbals in matins doesn't reflect that meaning. because if it does, it would also apply for vespers.....which doesn't make much sense.
[quote author=gergesezzat link=topic=5903.msg79034#msg79034 date=1194024340]
dear all,
I have a question.
every vesper we say the verses for the next day. for example we say the verses for joyful days then any other verses. but only in sturdy vesper we say the watos introduction.
does any one know why?
becasue the offical day starts from vespers of the day before. but actually in the verse of cymbals, we say the ones OF THE DAY not the next day.
Ibrahim ayad says here that you say amoni on the raising of incense for vespers. He also mentions that this applies to SUNDAY as well as monday and tuesday. So amoni should be said during vespers on saturday.
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns%2FAnnual%2FVerses_of_Cymbals_and_Doxologies%2FIbrahim_Ayad%2FPart_1%2F01.Adam_intro_for_verses_of_cymbals.931.mp3
Ibrahim ayad says here that you say amoni on the raising of incense for vespers. He also mentions that this applies to SUNDAY as well as monday and tuesday. So amoni should be said during vespers on saturday.
I am sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever. Ibrahim ayad is basically saying that "amoni marenousht" is said on the adam days, which are sunday, monday, and tuesday. When he says raising of incense, that doesnt atomatically mean he is talking about saturday, you can have raising of incense any day before the day of the Liturgy. However, for the Vatos days we say tenousht which is on wednesday, thursday, friday, and SATURDAY. So you are supposed to say Tenousht on Saturday.
GB
Tony
http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns%2FAnnual%2FVerses_of_Cymbals_and_Doxologies%2FIbrahim_Ayad%2FPart_1%2F01.Adam_intro_for_verses_of_cymbals.931.mp3
Ibrahim ayad says here that you say amoni on the raising of incense for vespers. He also mentions that this applies to SUNDAY as well as monday and tuesday. So amoni should be said during vespers on saturday.
[quote author=His Servant link=topic=5903.msg79078#msg79078 date=1194214973]
According to the Calendar which we follow, the day begins at 6 the night before, which is the reason for vespers not being allowed to start before 6. It is a rite of the church. Ask any priest. This was said by Abouna shenouda Anba Bishoy. If we are supposed to go by that day then Saturday tasbeha would be vatos. Not Adam even though it is for the next day. Vespers is also for the next day. You don't celebrate the vespers prayers on saturday night for saturday morning right? You celebrate it for sunday morning. Which means you would follow the rites of the sunday prayers. If sunday was a joyous day then you would have the joyous tune saturday night. I hope I am being clear. And actually Ibrahim Ayad says, "The verses of the cymbals which is to be said during VESPERS and matins raising of the incense for sunday, and monday. And the matins for tuesday." You can ask any bishop and they will tell you that it should be prayed amoni. and i myself asked very reliable sources in my church who agreed with me and said that what i was saying is correct. You can find a book on the rites of vespers prayers and you will find that you are supposed to pray the verses of the cymbals according to the next day.
tony is right. the recoridng doesn't sepicify anything about which exactly since you have the same thing. in vespers, you pray the ones of the day. the only think about saturday is that sunday is considered a FEAST not of festive tune, but a feast of remebering our Lord's resurection. and the only thing diffrent aobut that is saying akee and aktonk. why am i saying this?!....because that, changing akee to aktonk, is the ONLY thing of sunday rite you say in the saturday vespers. nothing is against the rules of what was in the recording above, or the books, or any other source. the rule still applys of saying the verses of the day in vespers.
First, thank you for answering my question on verses of cymbals.
Second, I tend to agree with His Servant here (although I haven't got much information). To me, it should look like this: the correctly ritual vespers (on a Saturday night for example) starts with Niethnos Tyrou, Fourth Ode (hos), then Psali and Theotokia for Saturday, and then the altar's veil is opened, and from then on I think it should change to Adam tunes, with what His Servant is saying, "amoini mernouosht" rather than "tenouosht" in verses of cymbals. And after the vespers finish midnight chants start in Adam tune for Sunday, and so on. I hope that makes sense.
God bless you all and pray for me a lot
i've been thinking this over, and came to the following conclusion:
The thing that is confusing is that we do pray the Vesper praise in the tune of the actual day, or else we would be praying an adam tasbeha on saturday evening, which is certainly not the case. The question that comes up in my mind is: if we use the same rites in vespers and vesper praise, does this also go for the watos/adam thing?
If yes, then we use the watos introduction in the vespers of saturday.
If no, then we use the adam introduction. However, this is strange, because that would mean we end the day with the vesper praise, and begin the new (adam) day with vespers.
So for me, logic says we say the watos introduction.
The only thing that is really is weird is that we say "aktonk" instead of "aki", and this leaves me with no clear answer. We should either pray the whole of Vespers in Watos mode, just like the Vesper Praise (and say aki, since we are still on a saturday), or else we should pray it totally in adam mode, saying aktonk.
We pray the vespers as a preparation for the liturgy next day, an example is that we pray joyfully on the saturday before palmsunday, while lazarussaturday is in itself day of annual rites. So, because we pray this vespers in palmsunday mode, we should follow also the adam mode...but this is not logic, because the vesper praise is also in the palmsunday mode, and this clearly is prayed in watos mode...
My personal conclusion is that this whole thing is not logic, we should just stick to the watos tune, and say aki!
One final thing is that Ibrahim Ayad in his recording doesn't specify whether the vespers of saturday is counted as adam/watos. Also in Albair's book it doesn't specify in the introduction to the Verses of the Cymbals.
EDIT: typo's
I tend to agree with you. I think your conclusion is quite satisfying, at least for me.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
The only thing that is really is weird is that we say "aktonk" instead of "aki", and this leaves me with no clear answer. We should either pray the whole of Vespers in Watos mode, just like the Vesper Praise (and say aki, since we are still on a saturday), or else we should pray it totally in adam mode, saying aktonk.
i think i can answer that......akee and aktonk doesn't have to do with the tune or rite of day, Watos or Adam, but it is linked with the ocasion of the next day....which is SUnday, the day of the resurrection of the Lord.
I'm open for new ideas, but it should be based on logic, or else a known, official, reliable source (ie a book of anba mattaos or a decision from the holy synod etc.)
Okay, fair enough, but that still doesn't explain why we use the Adam mode on a watos day, especially when u consider that the vesper praise (which is connected to the vespers) is to be prayed using the watos tune. This is directed not at you specifically, but to people who say that we say Amoini on saturday evening.
I'm open for new ideas, but it should be based on logic, or else a known, official, reliable source (ie a book of anba mattaos or a decision from the holy synod etc.)
hmmm....u answered your own question. since VESPERS praises is in watos, than vespers in Watos. i don't think it's that hard to understand. there is nothing the saturday vespers we say that is ADAM. as i said before, akee and akton IS NOT based on watos or adam.....So......
but others don't agree with us ;)
Looking forward to hear other opinions!
GB
Tony
Me said: Amoussa01 said: I agree with your second point, but what answer would you give to those who use the following argument: The the evening is the beginning of the next day and therefore we pray vespers as if it's the next day! When u look at the hours of Pascha week, it follows the same system (the night of wednesday is on tuesday evening). Also the readings of Vespers are placed with the day to come.
By the way, I don't support these arguments, but others do and we need clarification so that we can all be united in one system for prayer :)
actually we do not. vespers praises is following the same day... notice it is prayed BEFORE 6. which is before the start of the next day. Vespers IS NOT supposed to be prayed before 6. It follows the next day along with midnight praises.
you can't count hours in their LITERAL meaning. if so.....than you should go start midnight tasbeha at saturday midnight.....and say ALL the hymns and keep going untill 4 in the morning....than pray matins psalms and matins....and than go rest for a while...and than come back do the liturgy.......
you can't expect to respect the true timing of one thing and leave another.
Without counting me as a heretic, I think I can come up with some kind of conclusion that is relieving for us all, but again down to my sheer exertion. That is: we pray the vespers in Watos tune (therefore saying "tenouosht" in verses of cymbals) and singing Saturday Theotokia and Psali beforehand, however, with one thing in mind: Sunday readings (hence the use of "aktonk"). And, because midnight chants used to be sung @ 3:00 or so in the morning before morning doxology and matins, so they are sung in the Adam tune.
What do you all think about this conclusion?
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
Dear all,
Without counting me as a heretic, I think I can come up with some kind of conclusion that is relieving for us all, but again down to my sheer exertion. That is: we pray the vespers in Watos tune (therefore saying "tenouosht" in verses of cymbals) and singing Saturday Theotokia and Psali beforehand, however, with one thing in mind: Sunday readings (hence the use of "aktonk"). And, because midnight chants used to be sung @ 3:00 or so in the morning before morning doxology and matins, so they are sung in the Adam tune.
What do you all think about this conclusion?
God bless you all and pray for us a lot
why do i see "@ 3:00"....i thought we said we don't consider time in its essence??!!!
I think we all agree now, I also find the aktonk explanation satisfying: just like we start (or instance) "palmsunday" the evening of saturday, and we read the readings belonging to the coming day, we sort of get in the mood of the coming sunday and therefore we say "aktonk" untill the end of Hator, buttttttttt because we are technically still on a saturday we still concider it a watos day. However, once we start the midnight praise, because it is supposed to be sunday early in the morning, it is prayed as an adam tasbeha.
I think orphadece means that the Midnight praise is supposed to be chanted in the middle of the night, and therefore it's chanted in Adam tune (in the case of the sunday midnight praise).
I think we all agree now, I also find the aktonk explanation satisfying: just like we start (or instance) "palmsunday" the evening of saturday, and we read the readings belonging to the coming day, we sort of get in the mood of the coming sunday and therefore we say "aktonk" untill the end of Hator, buttttttttt because we are technically still on a saturday we still concider it a watos day. However, once we start the midnight praise, because it is supposed to be sunday early in the morning, it is prayed as an adam tasbeha.
yes......o my GOd.......we just reached a conclusion here in the forum.....this is a feast.....
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=5903.msg79150#msg79150 date=1194365735]
I think orphadece means that the Midnight praise is supposed to be chanted in the middle of the night, and therefore it's chanted in Adam tune (in the case of the sunday midnight praise).
I think we all agree now, I also find the aktonk explanation satisfying: just like we start (or instance) "palmsunday" the evening of saturday, and we read the readings belonging to the coming day, we sort of get in the mood of the coming sunday and therefore we say "aktonk" untill the end of Hator, buttttttttt because we are technically still on a saturday we still concider it a watos day. However, once we start the midnight praise, because it is supposed to be sunday early in the morning, it is prayed as an adam tasbeha.
yes......o my GOd.......we just reached a conclusion here in the forum.....this is a feast.....
Sorry to burst your bubble but i still don't agree. No one has given me any evidence of me being wrong. Whereas my sources tell me I am right. My sources are A. Anba Gregorious B. An article I read (Still trying to find it) and C. A Epideacon in my church as well as other deacons who have gone to a theological school and have studied all of these things.
I hope you can find your sources, and in the meanwhile I found a simulair discussion on cmn from a while ago:
discussion on the intro to the verses of the cymbals
In the end, I think this is one of these rites that cantors and churches disagree about. It really doesn't matter much, but it would be better to have unity!!!