Now let me ask an important question since we still in the [coptic]`W`ouniatk[ [/coptic] topic, I really disagree with something that Albair said. Which mean that this question is more towards Amoussa01, :D. Albairs says as an intro of the track, “ وهو لحنٌ نادر وكلماته مختلفة عن نصوص الدللات الحديثة والقديمة، ولكن هذا يعني أنه مُسلَّم وليس مُركباً علي النصوص المُتاحة، وقد اوردنا بعد التعديلات اللغوية فيه، بعد إستشارة المتخصصين في اللغة القبطية."
Rough English: "And it is a rare hymn, and its words are different from the text that is available in the old and modern references, but that means that it is received and not constructed on the available text. And we have edited some linguistic words in it after the consultation of the specialists in the Coptic language."
How can you declare that the hymn is more reliable be not having a text??! Not only that but you also edited the text.......
I can understand if the letters of even a word or two differ, but a whole hymn?!!!!!
I did not say that the words to this hymn were passed down from a book; i simply stated that they came from the oral recording of the cantor they got it from. Second, i just want to say that albeir has recently answered all the questions that you guys have been asking on the copticheritage.org site. So if you want to see why Fr. Isaiah's version was not recorded than go and check his response.
P.S. maybe the words are not necessarily the most reliable, but the tune definitely is. ; ) Oh, and ophadece, the HICS didnt record this hymn.
I did not say that the words to this hymn were passed down from a book; i simply stated that they came from the oral recording of the cantor they got it from. Second, i just want to say that albeir has recently answered all the questions that you guys have been asking on the copticheritage.org site. So if you want to see why Fr. Isaiah's version was not recorded than go and check his response.
P.S. maybe the words are not necessarily the most reliable, but the tune definitely is. ; ) Oh, and ophadece, the HICS didnt record this hymn.
GB Tony
well i read his response yes. but i am not specificly talking about Sr. Isaiah's anymore. I am just asking a general question about what he said.
and you just agreed with me. you said "maybe the words are not necessarily the most reliable" . I am just questioning the statment because it is a very strong one that can't be backed and and many would disagree.
well, honestly i dont think that it makes much of a difference considering the fact that the words which are in the HCOC version are not Biblically wrong or against our faith in terms of the lyrics. So it doesnt make much of a difference especially since probably only .0001 % of churches probably chant this hymn.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=6425.msg85008#msg85008 date=1207176315] well, honestly i dont think that it makes much of a difference considering the fact that the words which are in the HCOC version are not Biblically wrong or against our faith in terms of the lyrics. So it doesnt make much of a difference especially since probably only .0001 % of churches probably chant this hymn.
GB Tony
Amoussa01, I'm in general in agreement with both you and minagir, but on this point i must dissagree. Just because only less than 1% of churches actually render this hymn doesn't mean it should be taken as lightly as that. I believe the text should be accurate as well as the tune. If the text is not as correct as it should be than i believe it should either be corrected or not chanted whatsoever. The meaning of the hymn is not only in the tune, but the text that SUPPORTS the tune. Do you get what i'm trying to say here?
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=6425.msg85008#msg85008 date=1207176315] well, honestly i dont think that it makes much of a difference considering the fact that the words which are in the HCOC version are not Biblically wrong or against our faith in terms of the lyrics. So it doesnt make much of a difference especially since probably only .0001 % of churches probably chant this hymn.
GB Tony
well yes, BUT it doesn't refer to what it supposed to be. you can't just go get a verse from the bible and added it a tasbeha or make a FULL valid Psali for a specific season and just say it in the normal tune.
Sorry its been a while since i posted, but Mina, i still disagree with your opinion on Pavlos. "The general tune" you mentioned, but it is too vague a description to put on a hymn. I think you said something like "as long as you don't do anything outrageous" but that large a change in the structure of the hymn is pretty "outrageous" (or more varied). I follow ophadece's point on the matter and pretty much agree with his comment that different cantors still shouldn't be making so large a change from generation to generation. Mina, any chance of the file lol?
You guys are acting as if they made up the words. They got them from the only recording that was considered "authentic." Not only that, but they corrected the grammar to make it seem presentable, rather than just keeping it...in my opinion, i find that to be very commendable.
who are you t[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=6425.msg85157#msg85157 date=1207415285] You guys are acting as if they made up the words. They got them from the only recording that was considered "authentic." Not only that, but they corrected the grammar to make it seem presentable, rather than just keeping it...in my opinion, i find that to be very commendable.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=6425.msg85157#msg85157 date=1207415285] You guys are acting as if they made up the words. They got them from the only recording that was considered "authentic." Not only that, but they corrected the grammar to make it seem presentable, rather than just keeping it...in my opinion, i find that to be very commendable.
GB Tony
ya habibi i am not making a big deal of that. on the contrary i respect that and it was right to do.
am just against how you can connect accuracy with an audio recording rather than a text source. because that's what A;bair said as i stated before.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6425.msg85159#msg85159 date=1207418697] am just against how you can connect accuracy with an audio recording rather than a text source. because that's what A;bair said as i stated before.
Well, the whole point of their work is to preserve the heritage in terms of how the hymns are said. Everyone knows that there are many different interpretations out there but the primary goal is to preserve what was taught in terms of hymns. And since this was the only authentic source, they used it. I highly doubt that the cantor made these words up for two reasons.
1) The grammar is way off, which means that he was not fluent in coptic 2) It would make no sense whatsoever for a cantor to make up words to him; this then brings the idea that... 3) Perhaps it was written like this in the pascha books many years ago and was then, for some reason, edited.
In either case; it doesnt make much a difference towards the text in my opinion because, like i stated before, I do not see it being detrimental to our faith/rites/tradition/and so on. That is just my opinion; none of you have to agree with this. Either way, the main goal was the preserve the tune of these hymns, and to make their production complete, they included this hymn; like it or not.
Sorry I missed this topic 2 years ago. I have 2 questions. 1. Is the text in the hymns lyrics library the text used in Albair's recording? 2. Does anyone have the pre-corrected text found in the audio recording souce. (The one that Amoussa01 says the grammar was way off) I'd like to see if anyone transcribed the text from the recording.
I agree with Amoussa01 that the text found in most books is also a revised correction and the original text is the corrupted text found in the audio source. I'd like to confirm this theory.
the one on the text library is the one written in books. Here is the proposed text of HCOC: `Wouniatk `n;ok `wpiconi dymac@ je ak[i `m`patio `mpehli [o `mpefry] `eneh. Pekcyou tyrf akswpi `nouconi qen `pca `nte I=l=y=m@ oucaji `nouwt akjof `mP=o=c@ afouorpk `epiparadicoc.
before anyone gets copyright and "respect" issues with this file, this is the original source and not the one on the HCOC cds........hehe--they're not the only ones who have access to rare things.
lol, it sounds like he is praying the hymn while playing the flute at the same time. It's a really cool effect but it's not a suitable recording for learning.
[quote author=geomike link=topic=6425.msg133548#msg133548 date=1300765534] lol, it sounds like he is praying the hymn while playing the flute at the same time. It's a really cool effect but it's not a suitable recording for learning.
it's a really old recording....i am not providing it to learn from but rather to know it as a source.
Mina, this can't be the entire text from HCOC's recording. Is there more?
Also, it is impossible to make out what the words are in the audio recording. Can you verify that he is or is not using the text found in the lyrics library? And if he is not using the same text in the lyrics library, any idea what the text is?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=6425.msg133544#msg133544 date=1300761126] the one on the text library is the one written in books. Here is the proposed text of HCOC: `Wouniatk `n;ok `wpiconi dymac@ je ak[i `m`patio `mpehli [o `mpefry] `eneh. Pekcyou tyrf akswpi `nouconi qen `pca `nte I=l=y=m@ oucaji `nouwt akjof `mP=o=c@ afouorpk `epiparadicoc.
before anyone gets copyright and "respect" issues with this file, this is the original source and not the one on the HCOC cds........hehe--they're not the only ones who have access to rare things.
Ok. i guess you didn't understand the whole argument we been having.
The entire text that is in Church books is here: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1819 it is in Albair's book and other books that i don't have access to right now. the only known recording of this is the audio of Abouna Ash'eya El-maharaqi, m Tawfik's disciplem which we have here on the site on you can hear (link is on the right of the text link above). he doesn't record the 2nd part of the beginning (before the paralex). when you hear you'll see that he is simply rakebha on pi-epnevma.
the source of the OTHER VERSION is the link i posted. the main difference is the beginning of the hymn, before the paralex, simply because the paralex is documented to be said in the paralex of pi-epnevma.....so that is not the problem.
the problem now is that what we may hear in the distorted recording does not match the text in books. Albair said that they cleaned the audio file (which i hardly believe with all due respect), got the text, send it to language scholars to edit it and then recorded the hymn with that new text (and also published in his 2nd edition)...again this is all in the 1st two parts not the paralex.
oh, i forgot to say that some smart cantors decided to take the lahn of the distorted recording and rakebo on the right text in books. that is recorded by ma'lem zaher, i posted the link before.
Thanks Mina for the clarification. If I understand you correctly, then the actual text in the original audio recording (not the Abouna Ishaya version) is not written down in any book. It was extracted by HCOC and modified to the text in HCOC's 2nd edition. Is this correct?
I was actually looking for the extracted text before the modification. Any suggestions on where to find it? George
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=6425.msg133609#msg133609 date=1300806219] Thanks Mina for the clarification. If I understand you correctly, then the actual text in the original audio recording (not the Abouna Ishaya version) is not written down in any book. It was extracted by HCOC and modified to the text in HCOC's 2nd edition. Is this correct?
I was actually looking for the extracted text before the modification. Any suggestions on where to find it? George
Exactly. In the book, it did not replace the original text but it was added and referenced that it was extracted. For the original text, I would say email Albair
Comments
وهو لحنٌ نادر وكلماته مختلفة عن نصوص الدللات الحديثة والقديمة، ولكن هذا يعني أنه مُسلَّم وليس مُركباً علي النصوص المُتاحة، وقد اوردنا بعد التعديلات اللغوية فيه، بعد إستشارة المتخصصين في اللغة القبطية."
Rough English:
"And it is a rare hymn, and its words are different from the text that is available in the old and modern references, but that means that it is received and not constructed on the available text. And we have edited some linguistic words in it after the consultation of the specialists in the Coptic language."
How can you declare that the hymn is more reliable be not having a text??!
Not only that but you also edited the text.......
I can understand if the letters of even a word or two differ, but a whole hymn?!!!!!
I did not say that the words to this hymn were passed down from a book; i simply stated that they came from the oral recording of the cantor they got it from. Second, i just want to say that albeir has recently answered all the questions that you guys have been asking on the copticheritage.org site. So if you want to see why Fr. Isaiah's version was not recorded than go and check his response.
P.S. maybe the words are not necessarily the most reliable, but the tune definitely is. ; )
Oh, and ophadece, the HICS didnt record this hymn.
GB
Tony
Minagir,
I did not say that the words to this hymn were passed down from a book; i simply stated that they came from the oral recording of the cantor they got it from. Second, i just want to say that albeir has recently answered all the questions that you guys have been asking on the copticheritage.org site. So if you want to see why Fr. Isaiah's version was not recorded than go and check his response.
P.S. maybe the words are not necessarily the most reliable, but the tune definitely is. ; )
Oh, and ophadece, the HICS didnt record this hymn.
GB
Tony
well i read his response yes. but i am not specificly talking about Sr. Isaiah's anymore. I am just asking a general question about what he said.
and you just agreed with me. you said "maybe the words are not necessarily the most reliable" . I am just questioning the statment because it is a very strong one that can't be backed and and many would disagree.
GB
Tony
God bless you and pray for us a lot
well, honestly i dont think that it makes much of a difference considering the fact that the words which are in the HCOC version are not Biblically wrong or against our faith in terms of the lyrics. So it doesnt make much of a difference especially since probably only .0001 % of churches probably chant this hymn.
GB
Tony
Amoussa01, I'm in general in agreement with both you and minagir, but on this point i must dissagree. Just because only less than 1% of churches actually render this hymn doesn't mean it should be taken as lightly as that. I believe the text should be accurate as well as the tune. If the text is not as correct as it should be than i believe it should either be corrected or not chanted whatsoever. The meaning of the hymn is not only in the tune, but the text that SUPPORTS the tune. Do you get what i'm trying to say here?
well, honestly i dont think that it makes much of a difference considering the fact that the words which are in the HCOC version are not Biblically wrong or against our faith in terms of the lyrics. So it doesnt make much of a difference especially since probably only .0001 % of churches probably chant this hymn.
GB
Tony
well yes, BUT it doesn't refer to what it supposed to be. you can't just go get a verse from the bible and added it a tasbeha or make a FULL valid Psali for a specific season and just say it in the normal tune.
Very nice of you. Thank you very much.
God bless you and pray for us a lot
GB
Tony
You guys are acting as if they made up the words. They got them from the only recording that was considered "authentic." Not only that, but they corrected the grammar to make it seem presentable, rather than just keeping it...in my opinion, i find that to be very commendable.
GB
Tony
Who? HICS?
You guys are acting as if they made up the words. They got them from the only recording that was considered "authentic." Not only that, but they corrected the grammar to make it seem presentable, rather than just keeping it...in my opinion, i find that to be very commendable.
GB
Tony
ya habibi i am not making a big deal of that. on the contrary i respect that and it was right to do.
am just against how you can connect accuracy with an audio recording rather than a text source. because that's what A;bair said as i stated before.
am just against how you can connect accuracy with an audio recording rather than a text source. because that's what A;bair said as i stated before.
Well, the whole point of their work is to preserve the heritage in terms of how the hymns are said. Everyone knows that there are many different interpretations out there but the primary goal is to preserve what was taught in terms of hymns. And since this was the only authentic source, they used it. I highly doubt that the cantor made these words up for two reasons.
1) The grammar is way off, which means that he was not fluent in coptic
2) It would make no sense whatsoever for a cantor to make up words to him; this then brings the idea that...
3) Perhaps it was written like this in the pascha books many years ago and was then, for some reason, edited.
In either case; it doesnt make much a difference towards the text in my opinion because, like i stated before, I do not see it being detrimental to our faith/rites/tradition/and so on. That is just my opinion; none of you have to agree with this. Either way, the main goal was the preserve the tune of these hymns, and to make their production complete, they included this hymn; like it or not.
GB
Tony
1. Is the text in the hymns lyrics library the text used in Albair's recording?
2. Does anyone have the pre-corrected text found in the audio recording souce. (The one that Amoussa01 says the grammar was way off) I'd like to see if anyone transcribed the text from the recording.
I agree with Amoussa01 that the text found in most books is also a revised correction and the original text is the corrupted text found in the audio source. I'd like to confirm this theory.
Thanks.
Here is the proposed text of HCOC:
`Wouniatk `n;ok `wpiconi dymac@ je ak[i `m`patio `mpehli [o `mpefry] `eneh.
Pekcyou tyrf akswpi `nouconi qen `pca `nte I=l=y=m@ oucaji `nouwt akjof `mP=o=c@ afouorpk `epiparadicoc.
the audio file is really distorted: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WO6NAUT1
before anyone gets copyright and "respect" issues with this file, this is the original source and not the one on the HCOC cds........hehe--they're not the only ones who have access to rare things.
lol, it sounds like he is praying the hymn while playing the flute at the same time. It's a really cool effect but it's not a suitable recording for learning.
it's a really old recording....i am not providing it to learn from but rather to know it as a source.
Also, it is impossible to make out what the words are in the audio recording. Can you verify that he is or is not using the text found in the lyrics library? And if he is not using the same text in the lyrics library, any idea what the text is?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=6425.msg133544#msg133544 date=1300761126]
the one on the text library is the one written in books.
Here is the proposed text of HCOC:
`Wouniatk `n;ok `wpiconi dymac@ je ak[i `m`patio `mpehli [o `mpefry] `eneh.
Pekcyou tyrf akswpi `nouconi qen `pca `nte I=l=y=m@ oucaji `nouwt akjof `mP=o=c@ afouorpk `epiparadicoc.
the audio file is really distorted: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WO6NAUT1
before anyone gets copyright and "respect" issues with this file, this is the original source and not the one on the HCOC cds........hehe--they're not the only ones who have access to rare things.
The entire text that is in Church books is here: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1819
it is in Albair's book and other books that i don't have access to right now. the only known recording of this is the audio of Abouna Ash'eya El-maharaqi, m Tawfik's disciplem which we have here on the site on you can hear (link is on the right of the text link above). he doesn't record the 2nd part of the beginning (before the paralex). when you hear you'll see that he is simply rakebha on pi-epnevma.
the source of the OTHER VERSION is the link i posted. the main difference is the beginning of the hymn, before the paralex, simply because the paralex is documented to be said in the paralex of pi-epnevma.....so that is not the problem.
the problem now is that what we may hear in the distorted recording does not match the text in books. Albair said that they cleaned the audio file (which i hardly believe with all due respect), got the text, send it to language scholars to edit it and then recorded the hymn with that new text (and also published in his 2nd edition)...again this is all in the 1st two parts not the paralex.
I was actually looking for the extracted text before the modification. Any suggestions on where to find it?
George
Thanks Mina for the clarification. If I understand you correctly, then the actual text in the original audio recording (not the Abouna Ishaya version) is not written down in any book. It was extracted by HCOC and modified to the text in HCOC's 2nd edition. Is this correct?
I was actually looking for the extracted text before the modification. Any suggestions on where to find it?
George
Exactly. In the book, it did not replace the original text but it was added and referenced that it was extracted.
For the original text, I would say email Albair