U know what worries me? Is that posters on here are saying (screaming rather) :"We are Coptic.. its our language" , "its our heritage" - "arabic is not our language".
If they are Egyptian, and they say this, then isn't there a risk that this causes further division between Christians and Muslims in Egypt? Rather than uniting in what we have in common (Egypt), we seem to be focused on what divides us. I mean, there are some Coptic sites who have even shown the "Coptic Flag"... and no doubt, with its national anthem too.
QT, I agree with you on the fact that people who are calling for a coptic republic with a coptic flag and coptic anthem and who are calling arabic the language of the invaders are taking it to an extreme and they're definitly not contributing to unity in Egypt. I don't support such extremist groups...
Personally I love Egypt with its two religions, I think it can work between muslims and christians (as it has been in the past, at times), I also love the arabic language with its rich vocabulary and beautiful poetry.. But I also value coptic both linguistically and culturally.
What I'm trying to say is that loving coptic doesn't cancel out loving Egypt... It's not one or the other, I'm both a patriot who loves her country with its two main religions and peoples, yet I hold on to my heritage as a copt. I don't see myself as being a threat to national unity by loving coptic...
From a linguistic point of view, I do also love Coptic. Yes.
There was a language actually called Esperanto that was recent. It was man made. For those that love Coptic, as a language - ok. But it should not be a tool nor mechanism to make us feel patriotic to a civilisation that we are no longer part of. It will cause division. Nor should it be a tool to prevent us from praying.
I meant I was patriotic to present day Egypt, with BOTH its major groups of people (muslims and christians). But you see, it's not only us Copts who take pride in Egypt's history, as a matter of fact, most Egyptians do, and it's actually true, because many of them are copts turned muslims, so are in fact descendents of ancient Egyptian.
Anyways, I'm not saying that us being descendents of ancient Egyptians makes us any better or smarter than others... But it's a more sentimental reason, I guess, since I'm a history freak and it means somthing to me to know that I'm the descendent of people who had this vast empire with all its glory...Also you'll find the same with Greeks, Italians, etc.
However, keeping coptic, is more than sentiment, it's also because reading things in the language they were written in, in the original language, is always better than translation.. As they say: traduttore e traditore (translator is a traitor)...
To tell you te truth, i didnt really read all the posts. But in a way i wanted to ask a question concerning this topic. Is it a sin in a way if in tasbeha you sing but dont really decipher and literally pay attention to the words both english and coptic? But mostly coptic?? I hope im not disrupting the topic if its a long one tell me if i should start my own.
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=6868.msg92881#msg92881 date=1216261471] To tell you te truth, i didnt really read all the posts. But in a way i wanted to ask a question concerning this topic. Is it a sin in a way if in tasbeha you sing but dont really decipher and literally pay attention to the words both english and coptic? But mostly coptic?? I hope im not disrupting the topic if its a long one tell me if i should start my own.
/ mahraeel plzzz p4m sister in Christ
Not really. If you really FULLY PAY attention to EVERY SINGLE word, you wont be able to FULLY PRAY.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92883#msg92883 date=1216263320] [quote author=mahraeel link=topic=6868.msg92881#msg92881 date=1216261471] To tell you te truth, i didnt really read all the posts. But in a way i wanted to ask a question concerning this topic. Is it a sin in a way if in tasbeha you sing but dont really decipher and literally pay attention to the words both english and coptic? But mostly coptic?? I hope im not disrupting the topic if its a long one tell me if i should start my own.
/ mahraeel plzzz p4m sister in Christ
Not really. If you really FULLY PAY attention to EVERY SINGLE word, you wont be able to FULLY PRAY.
No. THat's wrong. It says in the Bible, in the psalms :"Worship the Lord with UNDERSTANDING".
That's in Pslam 47:7. Some versions even say "Praise the Lord with Understanding". So, if the tasbeha = PRAISE, then it MUST BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING!!!
Mina, if u have a problem with this, take it up with God. He wrote the Bible. What are your biblical references for saying otherwise??
I've posted one.
Here's another just in case u weren't convinced :
Read 1 Corinthians 14 about speaking in tongues, and HOW POINTLESS it is to speak in tongues UNLESS someone understands u, and if u don't even understand it yourself, what is the POINT???
Ps 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
And then in verse 14 , 1Co 14:15 it says:
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Do i need to say anything more???
THerefore, if u do not pray with understanding, u are NOT praying. In fact, its so wrong, that its remarkable seeing someone Coptic justifying this.
[coptic]Bac pamenrit,[/coptic] [coptic]Pilogicmoc `fnaswpi pe `pjinkwt `nte tenek`klyci`a - `ksanmoust ni deke ek`klyci`a cecaji qen touacpi eqoun `Franca ie Britanni`a ie keouai `n,wra `napodymyc ebyl ]ek`klyci`a `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic] The point will be the edification of the church Vas - you can see that other churches speak in their own tongue inside France or Britain or any other country in the diaspora except the Coptic church [coptic]`mmon ];wt an nem (]ek`klyci`a epar,yc) ouoh ]meu`i je nirem`nIclam cenacwtp touacpi @ naswpi `nrem`n<ymi je ceswpi qen <ymi ie anremArapi`a je pounah] pe qen ;aiacpi tai[/coptic] No I don't agree with "state church" and I think the the muslims can choose their language, be it Egyptian because they live in Egypt, or Arabic because their faith is written in that [coptic]anon swpi an ne nirem`nArapi`a ouoh ;aiacpi tai ;wn an pe[/coptic] We are not Arabs and this language is not ours [coptic]anon `nrem`n<ymi ne ouoh tenacpi pe `nrem`n<ymi tenswpi kan qen piapodymyc[/coptic] We are Copts and our language is Coptic even in the diaspora [coptic]V] efe`cmou erwten ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen neten`proceu,y[/coptic] God bless you all and don't forget us in your prayers [coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
OK.. first of all, let's not deviate from the point: praying without undertanding is wrong. The Bible references back that up. Unless anyone has any other Bible references that suggest u can pray anything without understanding is OK, please post it.
Secondly, your comment above makes me worry. Its a comment that causes division. Not unity. Arabic is the language of Egypt my friend.
Let me put a question to you Ophadece:
Let's assume, hypothetically speaking that all of Egypt became Coptic Orthodox, or Christian.. let's say.. ok?
Churches are filled to the top. All mosques are converted into Churches (because there are no room in CHurches anymore, and mosques are not needed).. let's say.
Would you still feel the same way about the arabic language if It will be the language in which ALL OF EGYPT will pray in??
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92897#msg92897 date=1216278792] [quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92883#msg92883 date=1216263320] [quote author=mahraeel link=topic=6868.msg92881#msg92881 date=1216261471] To tell you te truth, i didnt really read all the posts. But in a way i wanted to ask a question concerning this topic. Is it a sin in a way if in tasbeha you sing but dont really decipher and literally pay attention to the words both english and coptic? But mostly coptic?? I hope im not disrupting the topic if its a long one tell me if i should start my own.
/ mahraeel plzzz p4m sister in Christ
Not really. If you really FULLY PAY attention to EVERY SINGLE word, you wont be able to FULLY PRAY.
No. THat's wrong. It says in the Bible, in the psalms :"Worship the Lord with UNDERSTANDING".
That's in Pslam 47:7. Some versions even say "Praise the Lord with Understanding". So, if the tasbeha = PRAISE, then it MUST BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING!!!
Mina, if u have a problem with this, take it up with God. He wrote the Bible. What are your biblical references for saying otherwise??
I've posted one.
Here's another just in case u weren't convinced :
Read 1 Corinthians 14 about speaking in tongues, and HOW POINTLESS it is to speak in tongues UNLESS someone understands u, and if u don't even understand it yourself, what is the POINT???
Ps 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
And then in verse 14 , 1Co 14:15 it says:
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Do i need to say anything more???
THerefore, if u do not pray with understanding, u are NOT praying. In fact, its so wrong, that its remarkable seeing someone Coptic justifying this.
Here you are just denying the story of Monk washing the pot with holes more than once.
You are taking the bible too literal.
THat fact that YOU ARE PRAYING makes all the difference.
NOT ALL pray is the same; there are many kinds of prayer. Tasbeha, being a collective prayer, is diffrent then your own prayer in your own small room.
You are telling me right now that alllllll of our prayers, that we send up to HIM, wen we are not understanding are in vain.......So wait, what about reading the bible.........
And of course, i also agree with ophadece. That was always a probelm that he is trying to let us know about it and is one of the greatest probelms that cause "dangers of coptic"
lol i c theres some type of competition here. Yes, but vas, you can't literally sit there and focus on every word in tasbeha can you? I mean you have to be doing it to praise God but do you have to understands it well? How about the topic. I mean surely you dont know what every coptic word means do you?
P>S Is Vas your name? I have seen many write that. LOL
[coptic]Bac pamenrit. Eu`slyl nouesen euka] `mmon kakoc pe je ni`gravy =e=;=b eujw `mmoc je Pi=p=n=a =e=;=b ma`tcabon ou tenka] an tensaer`proceu,y[/coptic] Praying without understanding is not wrong since the Holy Books say that the Holy Spirit teaches us what we can't understand when we pray [coptic]oumys `mmona,oc auswpi niagrammatoc alla auareh `mpennah] ebolhiten metermeletyn `nnihwc qen ]acpi `nrem`n<ymi ouoh auer'alin `mmwou - e;be nihwc qen `nrem`n<ymi etemton eceermeletyn pe[/coptic] A lot of monks were illiterate but still preserved our faith through learning the hymns in Coptic and singing them - that is because the hymns in Coptic are easy to learn [coptic]]nacqai qa ]acpi `nrem`nArapi`a menencwc[/coptic] I will write about the Arabic language later [coptic]V] efe`cmou erok ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen nek`proceu,y[/coptic] God bless you and don't forget us in your prayers [coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
To answer this subject requires spirituality and deepness. Its truly best at this stage that we ask our FoC's. All I can tell you is that there are many priests that agree with me. Priests who speak Coptic well, and yet refuse to allow it in their churches so that others can pray in the languages they understand.
The gift of the Holy Spirit was to give the apostles the tool or ability in speaking in tongues. What benefit was it if the Apostles were able to speak in languages that NO ONE Understood!? Your argument is like saying :"since the Holy spirit teaches us to pray, then we might as well stand up and say any gibberish that comes out of our mouth and hope that God accepts it".
OK.. Look. The same as we did for the subject on Punishments. Everyone gave their opinions and we were none the wiser. When we read the H.H's book on repentance, at that point we knew what the baseline was for making comments.
I so far have given references from scripture indicating that praying without understanding is WRONG. OK!? It is AGAINST scripture. PERIOD.
Now, the only book I know about prayer is called "THE ART OF PRAYER" . I'm gonna read it, and then make comments, but I must say, if u know of a book by H.H. on prayer, I'd prefer this.
To answer this subject requires spirituality and deepness. Its truly best at this stage that we ask our FoC's. All I can tell you is that there are many priests that agree with me. Priests who speak Coptic well, and yet refuse to allow it in their churches so that others can pray in the languages they understand.
The gift of the Holy Spirit was to give the apostles the tool or ability in speaking in tongues. What benefit was it if the Apostles were able to speak in languages that NO ONE Understood!? Your argument is like saying :"since the Holy spirit teaches us to pray, then we might as well stand up and say any gibberish that comes out of our mouth and hope that God accepts it".
WHY do people love to pick the extreme..... SO you it's to either sing in ONE LANGUAGE and lose the tunes and the spirit of them......or say what ever and still think God is accepting you.
The acceptable prayer is from the heart. God says, about the Jews, that they praise with their tongue but their hearts strayed away from Him. They did all their worship in Hebrew and they still do and speak it. Did that mean they were accepted by God……I guess you’d know the answer. Vassilios, you missed the part that Ophadece mentioned about the illiterate monks who are still living with God better then anyone of us here would wish to be.
If it's best asking our father of confession, then what are you don't here right now on the forum wasting your time.
Did the gift make them speak of tongues or others LISTEN to them in different tongues?!!! That refers to the apostles speaking in different languages meaning to spread the Word in the rest of the nations, the MANY, In the same time, in times of maricles as the one of St. Peter, other hear them in there own language. Think aboutt hat a little.....
I so far have given references from scripture indicating that praying without understanding is WRONG. OK!? It is AGAINST scripture. PERIOD.
WOW....since when you take the scripture THAT LITERAL........in many posts before people gave you VERSES from the bible that you always never accepted directlly.
But again, my fellow Ophadace brought a scripture refrnce to us, so......
Mina, I'm not getting side tracked into an argument. I'm asking on here, cos I'm always travelling, in the middle of nowhere and have no FoC for the most part of my time.
Its best to wait until I ask my FoC or u can ask yours. I have already found 10 priests that have agreed with me. I can name them. I know a priest that REFUSES to pray in Coptic, even though he speaks it fluently because he knows his congregation doesn't speak it.
You talk about praying from the heart, but the heart is where all the malice is.. why would u want to pray from the heart? That's the place that made u mis-judge me, and u are using that wicked instrument to speak to God with. (that was a PRIEST that told me that!! - and if u want his name and number, I can give it to u!!!) - He said "That's why we use the AGPEYA" - "Pray from the Agpeya, not from your heart".
I gave several quotes about the importance of praying with understanding FROM THE BIBLE. what did u give to justify your opinion??
If praying from your heart was what God wanted, He wouldnt have taught us how to pray saying "Our Father who art in heaven".
In fact, Christ would have taught us, according to your logic: "Don't even say any words.. just hummm nice Coptic tunes and think of flowers when u talk to me... "
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6868.msg92955#msg92955 date=1216315597] Mina, I'm not getting side tracked into an argument. I'm asking on here, cos I'm always travelling, in the middle of nowhere and have no FoC for the most part of my time.
Its best to wait until I ask my FoC or u can ask yours. I have already found 10 priests that have agreed with me. I can name them. I know a priest that REFUSES to pray in Coptic, even though he speaks it fluently because he knows his congregation doesn't speak it.
You talk about praying from the heart, but the heart is where all the malice is.. why would u want to pray from the heart? That's the place that made u mis-judge me, and u are using that wicked instrument to speak to God with. (that was a PRIEST that told me that!! - and if u want his name and number, I can give it to u!!!) - He said "That's why we use the AGPEYA" - "Pray from the Agpeya, not from your heart".
I gave several quotes about the importance of praying with understanding FROM THE BIBLE. what did u give to justify your opinion??
If praying from your heart was what God wanted, He wouldnt have taught us how to pray saying "Our Father who art in heaven".
In fact, Christ would have taught us, according to your logic: "Don't even say any words.. just hummm nice Coptic tunes and think of flowers when u talk to me... "
So first. You don’t want pray from the heart…..OK. I am not gonna argue with that, that’s You. But yes God does want your heart….not your knowledge, not your money, not your service if it even came to that part.
If your heart is not with God in prayer, then neither a prayer from the agpeya or from the most spiritual books/words out there will satisfy a good prayer.
And wow, you fell in the “Our Father..” trap. That prayer took HUGE sections of books to maybe come close to fully understanding. If we ALL pray it in the same manner with FULL UNDERSTADNING, then yes, it is a good enough prayer to be said every time you’re supposed to pray.
I NEVER said don’t pray from the agpeya.
Well, YOU DON’T HAVE TO SAY WORDS TO HAVE A PERFECT PRAYER. not even hymns that you, FOR NO REASON, are arguing against.
If you read books about prayer they will all say that there are different ways of prayer. Praises in church where everyone is there is different then other prayers. REMEMBER THAT…I've said it before and you ignored it for no reason of what so ever.
Stop being so literal….you will not gain anything from this.
God wants your heart - yes. but not the garbage that's in there.And I don't think He will share it with garbage. "Light has no part with darkness". So, praying from your heart is not always advised in CoC. Many priests have said this. Praying from a "REPENTENT" heart is OK.
I do not understand the rest of your argument. But look - why not find a book from H.H that talks about prayer and see what the CoC thinks. I've come to realise that asking on Tasbeha.org, can be dangerous if we just give our opinions that are NOT backed by any Church references.
About "praying from your heart" - abouna told me that. U can take it up with him. PM me if u want his email or phone number.
As for the rest: A mother advised her daughter that its wrong to pray when u do not understand what u are saying. I cannot believe that you disagreed with her mother when the Bible says EXACTLY the same thing: "Pray with Understanding".
Please back up whatever u are saying with scripture; otherwise, do not post as it will be your opinion, and that's all, and u'll end up misleading others.
[coptic]Bac pamenrit>[/coptic][coptic]]ouem`h;yi je ei`cqai qen ]ecki - ]naerouw hi peklogicmoc `nte ]acpi `nrem`nArapi`a qen >ymi @ ]mou] an ejen ]vws `n<ymi alla ejen tennaareh etenacpi ouoh cathy niparadococ[/coptic] I am sorry I am writing that late, I will answer your point of the Arabic language in Egypt; I am not calling for division of Egypt but for us preserving our language and therefore our traditions. [coptic]Nim et`iri `nrem`nArapi`a ]acpi `n<ymi @ `n;oc an te - nirwmi euer=[=c ejen <ymi lesjen `nje ni`<rictianoc ouoh `cremrwm hanacpi de ke (`nrem`nArapi`a ie `nrem`nAnatolac @ =s=b=l)[/coptic] Who made Arabic the language of Egypt; it is not - the people who occupied Egypt oppressed us Christians and enforced other languages (like Arabic or Turkish, etc) [coptic]joust eBritanni`a - nirwmi `nte `Ckotlanda ie Uelz ie Irlanda caji qen touacpi plyn `nrem`nBritanni`a ouoh nimyini `nte ni`s;eh swpi qen niacpi mpecnau[/coptic] Look at Britain - the people of Scotland or Wales or Ireland speak their own languages in addition to English and the street signs are in both languages [coptic]okoun de ]ouos vai[/coptic] At least this is what I mean [coptic]V] efe`cmou erok ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen nek`proceu,y[/coptic] God bless you and don't forget us in your prayers [coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
I do not understand why you are writing each post in Coptic and in English! You know that we are not fluent in Coptic. By adding it, it makes the English hard to read. The whole purpose of writing in English is to help us communicate our thoughts with one another. By the very fact of you adding the Coptic in your posts, it defeats the purpose of communication as it makes the english-text harder to read.
As for heritage, we are Orthodox Christians. Coptic was the language of pre-islamic Egypt. If we are not Egyptian, yet Orthodox, then what right do people have of imposing a language on us with respect to how we pray our offices, our liturgies, our rights and our vespers?
Its irrelevant who made Arabic the language of Egypt. What's important is that it is the language that we now use every day in Egypt to communicate with. If we can communicate in it successfully, then the language is fine. If it has pronouns, nouns, adjectives, articles, adverbs etc, and we can express our thoughts and understand literature in it, and we can understand the Bible in it, then it serves its purpose.
By suggesting that "arabic is not your language", you are pushing yourself further from unity with your homeland Egypt. It is your language. Is your mother tongue not arabic!?
Let's imagine that the Greeks came and occupied Egypt, and influenced us also, and we ended up speaking "GREEK" in Egypt, and Coptic faded away. What difference does it make. So long as we speak a language that we all understand??
Languages, dialects - over time change. It doesn't define our faith, nor dogma that ALWAYS STAYS THE SAME.
Concerning this topic, that is of great interest to everyone, I would like to conclude and put things straight.
Issue 1: We cannot pray in a language we do not understand: -----------------------------------------------------------
By learning Coptic hymns in English or Arabic (downloading them in English or Arabic) - and then learning the Coptic afterwards, proves a good way to pray with understanding. It is clear that we cannot pray in a language that is foreign to us and read the translation at the same time.
Issue 2: Our Coptic Language (and Greek to some extent) and Hymns may risk on becoming extinct -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our hymns, well - Coptic hymns, are pharaonic. They are part of our Church, and I doubt that they will leave. What I suggest is, we teach our children from now how to pray. Not necessarily in Coptic. But to pray with understanding whether it be in English/Coptic/French/Arabic. It doesn't matter. What matters are our Coptic orthodox Dogmas, Liturgies, Rites, Theology. THese things we should hold dear to our hearts.
It is hard to separate the language from its music (i.e. Coptic Language from the Coptic Music/Hymns etc). But , this does work well in arabic - by the way!!
I think, what has to be done, and I am saying this now through consultation with our Church leaders, that Our Coptic/Greek hymns cannot go. What has to happen is that - during any liturgy, there are some hymns that should always be said in Coptic/Greek (always!). Well known hymns (Hiten, Ari-Epresvaveen etc and Agios Otheos). But not everything. The mass should be prayed in understanding. Doing things without understanding for the sake of keeping a language from extinction should not happen. It would be cruel for a priest to pray the entire liturgy in Coptic, using the liturgy or a fraction of a liturgical prayer of one of our great fathers, which hasn't yet been translated into English. That's just cruel to do that. (for example. I have not seen ONE BOOK that has the hymn E-Aghapi tou Theo) - and I know many priests/bishops that still sing this. Perhaps they know the meaning.. but.. most of us do not speak Greek nor Coptic.
Its also cruel, likewise to sing anything in Coptic that hasn't been translated. it will simply become a one-man-show, and rather than becoming a participant in worshipping, we will find ourselves "observers" in worshipping.
No one wants the Coptic language to die. Yet, if people persist in singing coptic 24/7 and in every part of the mass, tasbeha, vespers, agpeya, so that no one really understands, then one day, sure enough, you'll have kept the language from extinction, yet the Church may be empty in parts of the world where countries do not speak Coptic.
Issue 3: Praying with Understanding - the Importance ---------------------------------------------------
As I said before, if anyone has an issue with this, take it up with God. Please read 1 corinthians 14, and also Psalm 47:7 :"Praise the Lord with Understanding".
I think this verse is crystal clear.
Also, its wrong to change "right from wrong" to appease our desires and our own agendas.
It is prayer that purifies our hearts, not the Coptic melodies. Although the melodies are good and invite worship, they can be like a double edged-sword if it actually prevents u from praying (by virtue of the fact that it may inhibit you from actually understanding). The devil tries his best to stop u from praying, and then we do this to ourselves by consistently singing in Coptic when we are not able to even pronounce the langauge correctly, let alone understand it word for word.
Conclusion -----------
Finally, most hymns/rights/doxologies are now translated into English. Not everything though. We have to be wise when thinking about those who may be attending vespers/mass/rights/sacraments who may not have a good grasp of the Coptic language. Remember: the Church is there to help us pray, to lead us into prayer, and subsequently repentence, not to stop us from praying!!
If your mind wanders during prayer because you are not understanding the praise from participating in doing the tasbeha, this can be solved by learning the tasbeha in your native language and super-imposing Coptic afterwards. Sure, we should not be lazy,but proactive in our spiritual life.
Nothing is as powerful, nor beautiful and as meaningful as the Coptic Orthodox Tasbeha - no one wants to see this masterpiece of praise and woship evaporate needlessly. But prayer with understanding is paramount, and unless understanding of this praise is given priority, there will be HUGE problems in our Church later on.
---------
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Comments
U know what worries me? Is that posters on here are saying (screaming rather) :"We are Coptic.. its our language" , "its our heritage" - "arabic is not our language".
If they are Egyptian, and they say this, then isn't there a risk that this causes further division between Christians and Muslims in Egypt? Rather than uniting in what we have in common (Egypt), we seem to be focused on what divides us. I mean, there are some Coptic sites who have even shown the "Coptic Flag"... and no doubt, with its national anthem too.
Do not remove the ancient landmark Which your fathers have set
I don't support such extremist groups...
Personally I love Egypt with its two religions, I think it can work between muslims and christians (as it has been in the past, at times), I also love the arabic language with its rich vocabulary and beautiful poetry.. But I also value coptic both linguistically and culturally.
What I'm trying to say is that loving coptic doesn't cancel out loving Egypt... It's not one or the other, I'm both a patriot who loves her country with its two main religions and peoples, yet I hold on to my heritage as a copt. I don't see myself as being a threat to national unity by loving coptic...
God Bless
Please pray for me
From a linguistic point of view, I do also love Coptic. Yes.
There was a language actually called Esperanto that was recent. It was man made. For those that love Coptic, as a language - ok. But it should not be a tool nor mechanism to make us feel patriotic to a civilisation that we are no longer part of. It will cause division. Nor should it be a tool to prevent us from praying.
Anyways, I'm not saying that us being descendents of ancient Egyptians makes us any better or smarter than others... But it's a more sentimental reason, I guess, since I'm a history freak and it means somthing to me to know that I'm the descendent of people who had this vast empire with all its glory...Also you'll find the same with Greeks, Italians, etc.
However, keeping coptic, is more than sentiment, it's also because reading things in the language they were written in, in the original language, is always better than translation..
As they say: traduttore e traditore (translator is a traitor)...
God Bless
Please pray for me
/
mahraeel
plzzz p4m sister in Christ
To tell you te truth, i didnt really read all the posts. But in a way i wanted to ask a question concerning this topic. Is it a sin in a way if in tasbeha you sing but dont really decipher and literally pay attention to the words both english and coptic? But mostly coptic?? I hope im not disrupting the topic if its a long one tell me if i should start my own.
/
mahraeel
plzzz p4m sister in Christ
Not really. If you really FULLY PAY attention to EVERY SINGLE word, you wont be able to FULLY PRAY.
lol thanks mina=)
/
mahraeel
plzzz p4m sister in Christ
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=6868.msg92881#msg92881 date=1216261471]
To tell you te truth, i didnt really read all the posts. But in a way i wanted to ask a question concerning this topic. Is it a sin in a way if in tasbeha you sing but dont really decipher and literally pay attention to the words both english and coptic? But mostly coptic?? I hope im not disrupting the topic if its a long one tell me if i should start my own.
/
mahraeel
plzzz p4m sister in Christ
Not really. If you really FULLY PAY attention to EVERY SINGLE word, you wont be able to FULLY PRAY.
No. THat's wrong. It says in the Bible, in the psalms :"Worship the Lord with UNDERSTANDING".
That's in Pslam 47:7. Some versions even say "Praise the Lord with Understanding". So, if the tasbeha = PRAISE, then it MUST BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING!!!
Mina, if u have a problem with this, take it up with God. He wrote the Bible. What are your biblical references for saying otherwise??
I've posted one.
Here's another just in case u weren't convinced :
Read 1 Corinthians 14 about speaking in tongues, and HOW POINTLESS it is to speak in tongues UNLESS someone understands u, and if u don't even understand it yourself, what is the POINT???
Ps 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
And then in verse 14 , 1Co 14:15 it says:
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Do i need to say anything more???
THerefore, if u do not pray with understanding, u are NOT praying. In fact, its so wrong, that its remarkable seeing someone Coptic justifying this.
[coptic]Pilogicmoc `fnaswpi pe `pjinkwt `nte tenek`klyci`a - `ksanmoust ni deke ek`klyci`a cecaji qen touacpi eqoun `Franca ie Britanni`a ie keouai `n,wra `napodymyc ebyl ]ek`klyci`a `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
The point will be the edification of the church Vas - you can see that other churches speak in their own tongue inside France or Britain or any other country in the diaspora except the Coptic church
[coptic]`mmon ];wt an nem (]ek`klyci`a epar,yc) ouoh ]meu`i je nirem`nIclam cenacwtp touacpi @ naswpi `nrem`n<ymi je ceswpi qen <ymi ie anremArapi`a je pounah] pe qen ;aiacpi tai[/coptic]
No I don't agree with "state church" and I think the the muslims can choose their language, be it Egyptian because they live in Egypt, or Arabic because their faith is written in that
[coptic]anon swpi an ne nirem`nArapi`a ouoh ;aiacpi tai ;wn an pe[/coptic]
We are not Arabs and this language is not ours
[coptic]anon `nrem`n<ymi ne ouoh tenacpi pe `nrem`n<ymi tenswpi kan qen piapodymyc[/coptic]
We are Copts and our language is Coptic even in the diaspora
[coptic]V] efe`cmou erwten ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen neten`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you all and don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
Secondly, your comment above makes me worry. Its a comment that causes division. Not unity. Arabic is the language of Egypt my friend.
Let me put a question to you Ophadece:
Let's assume, hypothetically speaking that all of Egypt became Coptic Orthodox, or Christian.. let's say.. ok?
Churches are filled to the top. All mosques are converted into Churches (because there are no room in CHurches anymore, and mosques are not needed).. let's say.
Would you still feel the same way about the arabic language if It will be the language in which ALL OF EGYPT will pray in??
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6868.msg92883#msg92883 date=1216263320]
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=6868.msg92881#msg92881 date=1216261471]
To tell you te truth, i didnt really read all the posts. But in a way i wanted to ask a question concerning this topic. Is it a sin in a way if in tasbeha you sing but dont really decipher and literally pay attention to the words both english and coptic? But mostly coptic?? I hope im not disrupting the topic if its a long one tell me if i should start my own.
/
mahraeel
plzzz p4m sister in Christ
Not really. If you really FULLY PAY attention to EVERY SINGLE word, you wont be able to FULLY PRAY.
No. THat's wrong. It says in the Bible, in the psalms :"Worship the Lord with UNDERSTANDING".
That's in Pslam 47:7. Some versions even say "Praise the Lord with Understanding". So, if the tasbeha = PRAISE, then it MUST BE DONE WITH UNDERSTANDING!!!
Mina, if u have a problem with this, take it up with God. He wrote the Bible. What are your biblical references for saying otherwise??
I've posted one.
Here's another just in case u weren't convinced :
Read 1 Corinthians 14 about speaking in tongues, and HOW POINTLESS it is to speak in tongues UNLESS someone understands u, and if u don't even understand it yourself, what is the POINT???
Ps 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
And then in verse 14 , 1Co 14:15 it says:
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Do i need to say anything more???
THerefore, if u do not pray with understanding, u are NOT praying. In fact, its so wrong, that its remarkable seeing someone Coptic justifying this.
Here you are just denying the story of Monk washing the pot with holes more than once.
You are taking the bible too literal.
THat fact that YOU ARE PRAYING makes all the difference.
NOT ALL pray is the same; there are many kinds of prayer. Tasbeha, being a collective prayer, is diffrent then your own prayer in your own small room.
You are telling me right now that alllllll of our prayers, that we send up to HIM, wen we are not understanding are in vain.......So wait, what about reading the bible.........
And of course, i also agree with ophadece. That was always a probelm that he is trying to let us know about it and is one of the greatest probelms that cause "dangers of coptic"
P>S Is Vas your name? I have seen many write that. LOL
/
mahraeel
plzzz p4m sister in CHrist
Eu`slyl nouesen euka] `mmon kakoc pe je ni`gravy =e=;=b eujw `mmoc je Pi=p=n=a =e=;=b ma`tcabon ou tenka] an tensaer`proceu,y[/coptic]
Praying without understanding is not wrong since the Holy Books say that the Holy Spirit teaches us what we can't understand when we pray
[coptic]oumys `mmona,oc auswpi niagrammatoc alla auareh `mpennah] ebolhiten metermeletyn `nnihwc qen ]acpi `nrem`n<ymi ouoh auer'alin `mmwou - e;be nihwc qen `nrem`n<ymi etemton eceermeletyn pe[/coptic]
A lot of monks were illiterate but still preserved our faith through learning the hymns in Coptic and singing them - that is because the hymns in Coptic are easy to learn
[coptic]]nacqai qa ]acpi `nrem`nArapi`a menencwc[/coptic]
I will write about the Arabic language later
[coptic]V] efe`cmou erok ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen nek`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you and don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]Oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
To answer this subject requires spirituality and deepness. Its truly best at this stage that we ask our FoC's. All I can tell you is that there are many priests that agree with me. Priests who speak Coptic well, and yet refuse to allow it in their churches so that others can pray in the languages they understand.
The gift of the Holy Spirit was to give the apostles the tool or ability in speaking in tongues. What benefit was it if the Apostles were able to speak in languages that NO ONE Understood!? Your argument is like saying :"since the Holy spirit teaches us to pray, then we might as well stand up and say any gibberish that comes out of our mouth and hope that God accepts it".
OK.. Look. The same as we did for the subject on Punishments. Everyone gave their opinions and we were none the wiser. When we read the H.H's book on repentance, at that point we knew what the baseline was for making comments.
I so far have given references from scripture indicating that praying without understanding is WRONG. OK!? It is AGAINST scripture. PERIOD.
Now, the only book I know about prayer is called "THE ART OF PRAYER" . I'm gonna read it, and then make comments, but I must say, if u know of a book by H.H. on prayer, I'd prefer this.
People,
To answer this subject requires spirituality and deepness. Its truly best at this stage that we ask our FoC's. All I can tell you is that there are many priests that agree with me. Priests who speak Coptic well, and yet refuse to allow it in their churches so that others can pray in the languages they understand.
The gift of the Holy Spirit was to give the apostles the tool or ability in speaking in tongues. What benefit was it if the Apostles were able to speak in languages that NO ONE Understood!? Your argument is like saying :"since the Holy spirit teaches us to pray, then we might as well stand up and say any gibberish that comes out of our mouth and hope that God accepts it".
WHY do people love to pick the extreme.....
SO you it's to either sing in ONE LANGUAGE and lose the tunes and the spirit of them......or say what ever and still think God is accepting you.
The acceptable prayer is from the heart. God says, about the Jews, that they praise with their tongue but their hearts strayed away from Him. They did all their worship in Hebrew and they still do and speak it. Did that mean they were accepted by God……I guess you’d know the answer.
Vassilios, you missed the part that Ophadece mentioned about the illiterate monks who are still living with God better then anyone of us here would wish to be.
If it's best asking our father of confession, then what are you don't here right now on the forum wasting your time.
Did the gift make them speak of tongues or others LISTEN to them in different tongues?!!!
That refers to the apostles speaking in different languages meaning to spread the Word in the rest of the nations, the MANY, In the same time, in times of maricles as the one of St. Peter, other hear them in there own language. Think aboutt hat a little..... WOW....since when you take the scripture THAT LITERAL........in many posts before people gave you VERSES from the bible that you always never accepted directlly.
But again, my fellow Ophadace brought a scripture refrnce to us, so......
I'm not getting side tracked into an argument. I'm asking on here, cos I'm always travelling, in the middle of nowhere and have no FoC for the most part of my time.
Its best to wait until I ask my FoC or u can ask yours. I have already found 10 priests that have agreed with me. I can name them. I know a priest that REFUSES to pray in Coptic, even though he speaks it fluently because he knows his congregation doesn't speak it.
You talk about praying from the heart, but the heart is where all the malice is.. why would u want to pray from the heart? That's the place that made u mis-judge me, and u are using that wicked instrument to speak to God with. (that was a PRIEST that told me that!! - and if u want his name and number, I can give it to u!!!) - He said "That's why we use the AGPEYA" - "Pray from the Agpeya, not from your heart".
I gave several quotes about the importance of praying with understanding FROM THE BIBLE. what did u give to justify your opinion??
If praying from your heart was what God wanted, He wouldnt have taught us how to pray saying "Our Father who art in heaven".
In fact, Christ would have taught us, according to your logic: "Don't even say any words.. just hummm nice Coptic tunes and think of flowers when u talk to me... "
Mina,
I'm not getting side tracked into an argument. I'm asking on here, cos I'm always travelling, in the middle of nowhere and have no FoC for the most part of my time.
Its best to wait until I ask my FoC or u can ask yours. I have already found 10 priests that have agreed with me. I can name them. I know a priest that REFUSES to pray in Coptic, even though he speaks it fluently because he knows his congregation doesn't speak it.
You talk about praying from the heart, but the heart is where all the malice is.. why would u want to pray from the heart? That's the place that made u mis-judge me, and u are using that wicked instrument to speak to God with. (that was a PRIEST that told me that!! - and if u want his name and number, I can give it to u!!!) - He said "That's why we use the AGPEYA" - "Pray from the Agpeya, not from your heart".
I gave several quotes about the importance of praying with understanding FROM THE BIBLE. what did u give to justify your opinion??
If praying from your heart was what God wanted, He wouldnt have taught us how to pray saying "Our Father who art in heaven".
In fact, Christ would have taught us, according to your logic: "Don't even say any words.. just hummm nice Coptic tunes and think of flowers when u talk to me... "
So first. You don’t want pray from the heart…..OK. I am not gonna argue with that, that’s You. But yes God does want your heart….not your knowledge, not your money, not your service if it even came to that part.
If your heart is not with God in prayer, then neither a prayer from the agpeya or from the most spiritual books/words out there will satisfy a good prayer.
And wow, you fell in the “Our Father..” trap.
That prayer took HUGE sections of books to maybe come close to fully understanding. If we ALL pray it in the same manner with FULL UNDERSTADNING, then yes, it is a good enough prayer to be said every time you’re supposed to pray.
I NEVER said don’t pray from the agpeya.
Well, YOU DON’T HAVE TO SAY WORDS TO HAVE A PERFECT PRAYER. not even hymns that you, FOR NO REASON, are arguing against.
If you read books about prayer they will all say that there are different ways of prayer. Praises in church where everyone is there is different then other prayers. REMEMBER THAT…I've said it before and you ignored it for no reason of what so ever.
Stop being so literal….you will not gain anything from this.
God wants your heart - yes. but not the garbage that's in there.And I don't think He will share it with garbage. "Light has no part with darkness". So, praying from your heart is not always advised in CoC. Many priests have said this. Praying from a "REPENTENT" heart is OK.
I do not understand the rest of your argument. But look - why not find a book from H.H that talks about prayer and see what the CoC thinks. I've come to realise that asking on Tasbeha.org, can be dangerous if we just give our opinions that are NOT backed by any Church references.
About "praying from your heart" - abouna told me that. U can take it up with him. PM me if u want his email or phone number.
As for the rest: A mother advised her daughter that its wrong to pray when u do not understand what u are saying. I cannot believe that you disagreed with her mother when the Bible says EXACTLY the same thing: "Pray with Understanding".
Please back up whatever u are saying with scripture; otherwise, do not post as it will be your opinion, and that's all, and u'll end up misleading others.
I am sorry I am writing that late, I will answer your point of the Arabic language in Egypt; I am not calling for division of Egypt but for us preserving our language and therefore our traditions.
[coptic]Nim et`iri `nrem`nArapi`a ]acpi `n<ymi @ `n;oc an te - nirwmi euer=[=c ejen <ymi lesjen `nje ni`<rictianoc ouoh `cremrwm hanacpi de ke (`nrem`nArapi`a ie `nrem`nAnatolac @ =s=b=l)[/coptic]
Who made Arabic the language of Egypt; it is not - the people who occupied Egypt oppressed us Christians and enforced other languages (like Arabic or Turkish, etc)
[coptic]joust eBritanni`a - nirwmi `nte `Ckotlanda ie Uelz ie Irlanda caji qen touacpi plyn `nrem`nBritanni`a ouoh nimyini `nte ni`s;eh swpi qen niacpi mpecnau[/coptic]
Look at Britain - the people of Scotland or Wales or Ireland speak their own languages in addition to English and the street signs are in both languages
[coptic]okoun de ]ouos vai[/coptic]
At least this is what I mean
[coptic]V] efe`cmou erok ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen nek`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you and don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
I do not understand why you are writing each post in Coptic and in English! You know that we are not fluent in Coptic. By adding it, it makes the English hard to read. The whole purpose of writing in English is to help us communicate our thoughts with one another. By the very fact of you adding the Coptic in your posts, it defeats the purpose of communication as it makes the english-text harder to read.
As for heritage, we are Orthodox Christians. Coptic was the language of pre-islamic Egypt. If we are not Egyptian, yet Orthodox, then what right do people have of imposing a language on us with respect to how we pray our offices, our liturgies, our rights and our vespers?
Its irrelevant who made Arabic the language of Egypt. What's important is that it is the language that we now use every day in Egypt to communicate with. If we can communicate in it successfully, then the language is fine. If it has pronouns, nouns, adjectives, articles, adverbs etc, and we can express our thoughts and understand literature in it, and we can understand the Bible in it, then it serves its purpose.
By suggesting that "arabic is not your language", you are pushing yourself further from unity with your homeland Egypt. It is your language. Is your mother tongue not arabic!?
Let's imagine that the Greeks came and occupied Egypt, and influenced us also, and we ended up speaking "GREEK" in Egypt, and Coptic faded away. What difference does it make. So long as we speak a language that we all understand??
Languages, dialects - over time change. It doesn't define our faith, nor dogma that ALWAYS STAYS THE SAME.
Concerning this topic, that is of great interest to everyone, I would like to conclude and put things straight.
Issue 1: We cannot pray in a language we do not understand:
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By learning Coptic hymns in English or Arabic (downloading them in English or Arabic) - and then learning the Coptic afterwards, proves a good way to pray with understanding. It is clear that we cannot pray in a language that is foreign to us and read the translation at the same time.
Issue 2: Our Coptic Language (and Greek to some extent) and Hymns may risk on becoming extinct
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Our hymns, well - Coptic hymns, are pharaonic. They are part of our Church, and I doubt that they will leave. What I suggest is, we teach our children from now how to pray. Not necessarily in Coptic. But to pray with understanding whether it be in English/Coptic/French/Arabic. It doesn't matter. What matters are our Coptic orthodox Dogmas, Liturgies, Rites, Theology. THese things we should hold dear to our hearts.
It is hard to separate the language from its music (i.e. Coptic Language from the Coptic Music/Hymns etc). But , this does work well in arabic - by the way!!
I think, what has to be done, and I am saying this now through consultation with our Church leaders, that Our Coptic/Greek hymns cannot go. What has to happen is that - during any liturgy, there are some hymns that should always be said in Coptic/Greek (always!). Well known hymns (Hiten, Ari-Epresvaveen etc and Agios Otheos). But not everything. The mass should be prayed in understanding. Doing things without understanding for the sake of keeping a language from extinction should not happen. It would be cruel for a priest to pray the entire liturgy in Coptic, using the liturgy or a fraction of a liturgical prayer of one of our great fathers, which hasn't yet been translated into English. That's just cruel to do that. (for example. I have not seen ONE BOOK that has the hymn E-Aghapi tou Theo) - and I know many priests/bishops that still sing this. Perhaps they know the meaning.. but.. most of us do not speak Greek nor Coptic.
Its also cruel, likewise to sing anything in Coptic that hasn't been translated. it will simply become a one-man-show, and rather than becoming a participant in worshipping, we will find ourselves "observers" in worshipping.
No one wants the Coptic language to die. Yet, if people persist in singing coptic 24/7 and in every part of the mass, tasbeha, vespers, agpeya, so that no one really understands, then one day, sure enough, you'll have kept the language from extinction, yet the Church may be empty in parts of the world where countries do not speak Coptic.
Issue 3: Praying with Understanding - the Importance
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As I said before, if anyone has an issue with this, take it up with God. Please read 1 corinthians 14, and also Psalm 47:7 :"Praise the Lord with Understanding".
I think this verse is crystal clear.
Also, its wrong to change "right from wrong" to appease our desires and our own agendas.
It is prayer that purifies our hearts, not the Coptic melodies. Although the melodies are good and invite worship, they can be like a double edged-sword if it actually prevents u from praying (by virtue of the fact that it may inhibit you from actually understanding). The devil tries his best to stop u from praying, and then we do this to ourselves by consistently singing in Coptic when we are not able to even pronounce the langauge correctly, let alone understand it word for word.
Conclusion
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Finally, most hymns/rights/doxologies are now translated into English. Not everything though. We have to be wise when thinking about those who may be attending vespers/mass/rights/sacraments who may not have a good grasp of the Coptic language. Remember: the Church is there to help us pray, to lead us into prayer, and subsequently repentence, not to stop us from praying!!
If your mind wanders during prayer because you are not understanding the praise from participating in doing the tasbeha, this can be solved by learning the tasbeha in your native language and super-imposing Coptic afterwards. Sure, we should not be lazy,but proactive in our spiritual life.
Nothing is as powerful, nor beautiful and as meaningful as the Coptic Orthodox Tasbeha - no one wants to see this masterpiece of praise and woship evaporate needlessly. But prayer with understanding is paramount, and unless understanding of this praise is given priority, there will be HUGE problems in our Church later on.
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If you think you have any comments to add or complaints concerning this thread, please PM the admins, or email ([email protected]).
Thanks