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Communion Hymns in Vrigin Mary fast and feast
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou>
ebolhiten peten`hmot ]ouos je `nouon `nteftamoi epikocmocyc `nte nihwc `nte Eu,aricti`a qen ];eotokoc nycti`a nem sai[/coptic]
Please (through your grace) I want someone to tell me the order of hymns of Communion during the Theotokoc fast and feast
[coptic]My tenerar,ec;e hi (Piwik) nem menencwf (paralax nem Atai par;enoc)? ie pikocmocyc keouai pe?[/coptic]
Do we start with "[coptic]Piwik[/coptic]" and followed by "[coptic]paralax[/coptic] and [coptic]Atai par;enoc[/coptic]"? Or is it a different order?
[coptic]V] efecmou erwten ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen neten`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you and don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
ebolhiten peten`hmot ]ouos je `nouon `nteftamoi epikocmocyc `nte nihwc `nte Eu,aricti`a qen ];eotokoc nycti`a nem sai[/coptic]
Please (through your grace) I want someone to tell me the order of hymns of Communion during the Theotokoc fast and feast
[coptic]My tenerar,ec;e hi (Piwik) nem menencwf (paralax nem Atai par;enoc)? ie pikocmocyc keouai pe?[/coptic]
Do we start with "[coptic]Piwik[/coptic]" and followed by "[coptic]paralax[/coptic] and [coptic]Atai par;enoc[/coptic]"? Or is it a different order?
[coptic]V] efecmou erwten ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen neten`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you and don't forget us in your prayers
[coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
Comments
pray for me
joe
except for Anok nem being before atay-parthenos before all of these.
About pi-oik, i guess you don't say it because u'd have Anok nem to say.
What happens mostly thoo is that u'd start with ekismaroot and continue from there on with other known hymns. also since communion is shor most of the time, u'd say some hymns one day and other another day. this is of course for communion time.
In vespers, glorifiction mostly just goes into this order, not much diffrent; maybe skip some things....and of course you wont say anok nem or atay parthenos.
Do we sing Ya Om al nour during this period??
Do we also sing it during Christmas?
Thanks
When is St. Mary's feast btw?
Do we sing Ya Om al nour during this period??
Do we also sing it during Christmas?
Thanks
St.Mary's fast is in August....i think it is the 14th or something close to that....please correct me if i am wrong
When is St. Mary's feast btw?
Do we sing Ya Om al nour during this period??
Do we also sing it during Christmas?
Thanks
no songs that are part of the actual liturgical service of vespers or liturgy
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6952.msg93044#msg93044 date=1216409672]
When is St. Mary's feast btw?
Do we sing Ya Om al nour during this period??
Do we also sing it during Christmas?
Thanks
no songs that are part of the actual liturgical service of vespers or liturgy
Sorry, i didnt quite understand that? Ya oum al nour - its the hymn in the last page of the khedmet il shamass.. don't we sing this during Holy Communion??
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6952.msg93048#msg93048 date=1216411466]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6952.msg93044#msg93044 date=1216409672]
When is St. Mary's feast btw?
Do we sing Ya Om al nour during this period??
Do we also sing it during Christmas?
Thanks
no songs that are part of the actual liturgical service of vespers or liturgy
Sorry, i didnt quite understand that? Ya oum al nour - its the hymn in the last page of the khedmet il shamass.. don't we sing this during Holy Communion??
it's not a "hymn" rather just a song. mostly it's sung annual days in communion. that's why it's at the "end of the book" not in the order of the tamgeed, in the right position of the book.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6952.msg93055#msg93055 date=1216411949]
[quote author=minagir link=topic=6952.msg93048#msg93048 date=1216411466]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6952.msg93044#msg93044 date=1216409672]
When is St. Mary's feast btw?
Do we sing Ya Om al nour during this period??
Do we also sing it during Christmas?
Thanks
no songs that are part of the actual liturgical service of vespers or liturgy
Sorry, i didnt quite understand that? Ya oum al nour - its the hymn in the last page of the khedmet il shamass.. don't we sing this during Holy Communion??
it's not a "hymn" rather just a song. mostly it's sung annual days in communion. that's why it's at the "end of the book" not in the order of the tamgeed, in the right position of the book.
Mina,
We can sing this annually??? Its one of my favourite songs! I cannot believe there is a song i like that we can finally sing anually.
But.. of course we can sing it during the Holy Communion during the feast of St Mary?? Right??
Mina,
We can sing this annually??? Its one of my favourite songs! I cannot believe there is a song i like that we can finally sing anually.
But.. of course we can sing it during the Holy Communion during the feast of St Mary?? Right??
of course. u can, techniclllyy, say anything for st Mary during communion.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6952.msg93058#msg93058 date=1216413057]
Mina,
We can sing this annually??? Its one of my favourite songs! I cannot believe there is a song i like that we can finally sing anually.
But.. of course we can sing it during the Holy Communion during the feast of St Mary?? Right??
of course. u can, techniclllyy, say anything for st Mary during communion.
And i can sing it during the Communion anytime of the year also?
The fast of St. Mary also starts August 7 and always ends on August 22. But this year, Aug 6 is a Wednesday so I guess we have an extra day... and the feast is on a Friday so we'll be fasting then too... :D
Dear all
[coptic]aha ]nycti`a `nte ];eotokoc nacokc qen pimahsasf Agoctoc> ouoh pisai etqen pimahjw] `n`cnau `nte piabot `nomioc pe[/coptic]
Yes the fast of the Virgin will start on the seventh of August, and the feast is on the twenty second of the same month
[coptic]Myna af;eqtwqt je ]meu`i je nihwc `nte Eu,aricti`a ouw] enihwc `nte ]doxologi`a alla afjoc nyi je pikocmycic ouomioc pe ouoh aikat an ]nou[/coptic]
Mina confused me as I think the hymns of Communion are different to the hymns of glorification but he said that the order is similar and I don’t understand now
[coptic]Aika] ou aJozef pejaf je ni`cnau `nhwc euviri qen pijwm `nte ]refsemsi `nnidiakonoc[/coptic]
I understood what Joseph said of the two hymns mentioned in the book of deacon’s service
[coptic]Ebolqen peten`hmot ouonh `nkecop e;ribwl ebol eroi je anok pe piela,ictoc[/coptic]
Please clarify again explaining to me as I am weak :)
[coptic]V] efe`cmou erwten ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen neten`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you all and don’t forget us in your prayers
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou>[/coptic]
Dear all
[coptic]aha ]nycti`a `nte ];eotokoc nacokc qen pimahsasf Agoctoc> ouoh pisai etqen pimahjw] `n`cnau `nte piabot `nomioc pe[/coptic]
Yes the fast of the Virgin will start on the seventh of August, and the feast is on the twenty second of the same month
[coptic]Myna af;eqtwqt je ]meu`i je nihwc `nte Eu,aricti`a ouw] enihwc `nte ]doxologi`a alla afjoc nyi je pikocmycic ouomioc pe ouoh aikat an ]nou[/coptic]
Mina confused me as I think the hymns of Communion are different to the hymns of glorification but he said that the order is similar and I don’t understand now
[coptic]Aika] ou aJozef pejaf je ni`cnau `nhwc euviri qen pijwm `nte ]refsemsi `nnidiakonoc[/coptic]
I understood what Joseph said of the two hymns mentioned in the book of deacon’s service
[coptic]Ebolqen peten`hmot ouonh `nkecop e;ribwl ebol eroi je anok pe piela,ictoc[/coptic]
Please clarify again explaining to me as I am weak :)
[coptic]V] efe`cmou erwten ouoh `mperer`pwbs qen neten`proceu,y[/coptic]
God bless you all and don’t forget us in your prayers
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
the hymns of glorification are the same. but during communion, the fitting hymns are [coptic]`Anok nim[/coptic] and [coptic]`Atai Par;enoc[/coptic].
oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]]sep`hmot emasw Myna
oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
hey.....i thought [coptic]`P[oic[/coptic] is [coptic]`P=o=c[/coptic]...atleast in almost all the books except the old english translated liturgy book??!!!
No no no Mina
[coptic]nai ne soft qen ]met`cqai `nte naijwm alla `pjin`;re nem ([) `mmon (o)[/coptic]
These are mistakes in writings of these books but you make it with "[coptic][[/coptic]" not "[coptic]o[/coptic]"
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]`mmon `mmon `mmon Myna[/coptic]
No no no Mina
[coptic]nai ne soft qen ]met`cqai `nte naijwm alla `pjin`;re nem ([) `mmon (o)[/coptic]
These are mistakes in writings of these books but you make it with "[coptic][[/coptic]" not "[coptic]o[/coptic]"
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
hmm....does that include ALL books. I have in church books (katameroses, sagda dn Laqan, Kiahk Psalmody) that are from around 1950s and even 40s that spell it with [coptic][[/coptic]
vai `fnaswpi ([) `mmon (o) qen nijwm tyrou[/coptic]
It should be "[" not "o" in all books
[coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]Myna pamenri>
vai `fnaswpi ([) `mmon (o) qen nijwm tyrou[/coptic]
It should be "[" not "o" in all books
[coptic]oujai qen `=P=[=c[/coptic]
I am not denying what you are saying. I just wanted the source.
We all know that i can say, "This should be so..." and I do that in many texts, speaking capitalization-wise of words which you also support me in. But we can't just change ALL BOOKS!
FOr example I have in front of me the "Holy Week" book of Hegumen Attala of Sourian, 1971. The book spells out [coptic]`P[oic[/coptic] with [coptic]o[/coptic].
`n;ok pe `nrwmi va pi`kribwc ouoh `kouos hanapodeixic e;be ou aicaji cathy[/coptic]
You are a precise person and want proofs for what I said before
[coptic];ai te taermynia je nicaji qen hanswt ebol `nje noumorvy tou`cqai nem ni`cqai etcymvonyc ne `mmon etvwnyen (ebul ]`cjai `nsorp)[/coptic]
That is my understanding that abbreviations are written with consonant letters not vowels (excepting the first letter)
[coptic]]ercrah @ P=,=c - =e=;=b - =p=n=a - =s=b=l[/coptic]
I give as examples: [coptic]P=.=c - =p=n=a - =s=b=l[/coptic]
[coptic]alla acoi `napac `nje nimet`cqai ouoh neac`hros qen ni`cqai ouoh enavjemmwou nem (o) `mmon ([)[/coptic]
But these writings were old and they found it difficult and therefore made it easy in writings with "[coptic]o[/coptic]" rather than "[coptic][[/coptic]"
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]Myna pamenrit>
`n;ok pe `nrwmi va pi`kribwc ouoh `kouos hanapodeixic e;be ou aicaji cathy[/coptic]
You are a precise person and want proofs for what I said before
[coptic];ai te taermynia je nicaji qen hanswt ebol `nje noumorvy tou`cqai nem ni`cqai etcymvonyc ne `mmon etvwnyen (ebul ]`cjai `nsorp)[/coptic]
That is my understanding that abbreviations are written with consonant letters not vowels (excepting the first letter)
[coptic]]ercrah @ P=,=c - =e=;=b - =p=n=a - =w=b=l[/coptic]
I give as examples: [coptic]P=.=c - =p=n=a - =w=b=l[/coptic]
[coptic]alla acoi `napac `nje nimet`cqai ouoh neac`hros qen ni`cqai ouoh enavjemmwou nem (o) `mmon ([)[/coptic]
But these writings were old and they found it difficult and therefore made it easy in writings with "[coptic]o[/coptic]" rather than "[coptic][[/coptic]"
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
but wait. If we use what you are speaking about. there wouldn't be an [coptic]a[/coptic] in [coptic]=p=n=a[/coptic]. Also don't forget [coptic]Iycouc[/coptic], [coptic]I=y=c[/coptic]. and then if the old, original books said that, where is the rule coming from....
You are so strict and want precise proofs, which I don't have. I said it is only my personal opinion which I base on both abbreviations in chemistry and nations' names (ITA - FRA - USA, etc); yes you will still find vowels in both the first and last letters as is the case with [coptic]=p=n=a [/coptic] as you rightly pointed out (and [coptic]=e=;=b[/coptic]) but the bulk of the word which is the middle letter (in most cases is the second letter in the reference word) should be a consonant rather than a vowel. With [coptic]I=y=c [/coptic] I think you can't write it like [coptic]=i=c=c [/coptic] is that it may be confused with other words like [coptic]ictouc [/coptic] for example (second letter is c), so likewise [coptic][ [/coptic] is the second letter in [coptic]P=[=c [/coptic] and this way it may not be confused with [coptic]polewc [/coptic] for example (although in the latter case it would be more fitting to be [coptic]=p=l=c[/coptic]). I hope you get my point, and again it is all personal opinion applying logic only.
PS: check larger books like psalmodies in your church (more recently printed as well) and you will definitely find [coptic]P=[=c [/coptic] as printing techniques were able to avoid the earlier misprints
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
Mina (forgive me all for using English only as I can't form too technical Coptic sentences),
You are so strict and want precise proofs, which I don't have. I said it is only my personal opinion which I base on both abbreviations in chemistry and nations' names (ITA - FRA - USA, etc); yes you will still find vowels in both the first and last letters as is the case with [coptic]=p=n=a [/coptic] as you rightly pointed out (and [coptic]=e=;=b[/coptic]) but the bulk of the word which is the middle letter (in most cases is the second letter in the reference word) should be a consonant rather than a vowel. With [coptic]I=y=c [/coptic] I think you can't write it like [coptic]=i=c=c [/coptic] is that it may be confused with other words like [coptic]ictouc [/coptic] for example (second letter is c), so likewise [coptic][ [/coptic] is the second letter in [coptic]P=[=c [/coptic] and this way it may not be confused with [coptic]polewc [/coptic] for example (although in the latter case it would be more fitting to be [coptic]=p=l=c[/coptic]). I hope you get my point, and again it is all personal opinion applying logic only.
PS: check larger books like psalmodies in your church (more recently printed as well) and you will definitely find [coptic]P=[=c [/coptic] as printing techniques were able to avoid the earlier misprints
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
I guess i see what you are coming from...and i respect it as it is your opinion.
As for other psalmodies, i don't find that. The Kiahk Psalmody i was talking about was from around 1950s, also done by Hegumen Attalla, Also the newest Psalmody, The Paramos one, is in fact a new edition of the old one, which was done by H.Attalla too.
Actually all of these books don't have like for spaprate letters like we have here (=o=c) but rather a line connected between the [coptic]o[/coptic] and [coptic]c[/coptic] to be like this: [coptic]¡[/coptic]... a whole sparate character
[coptic]]nou akerouw erok[/coptic]
Now you answered yourself
[coptic]Vai ¡ pe =[ + =c `mmon =o + =c[/coptic]
That [coptic]¡ [/coptic] is [coptic]=[ + =c [/coptic] not [coptic]=o + =c[/coptic]
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
Oh Mina,
[coptic]]nou akerouw erok[/coptic]
Now you answered yourself
[coptic]Vai ¡ pe =[ + =c `mmon =o + =c[/coptic]
That [coptic]¡ [/coptic] is [coptic]=[ + =c [/coptic] not [coptic]=o + =c[/coptic]
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
No. i just showed you that it's a special charchter spelled with the [coptic]o[/coptic] and c[coptic][/coptic] and not [coptic][[/coptic].
i just found this, http://www.copticchurch.net/cgibin/gallery/index.php?currDir=./Manuscripts/High_Resolution&pageType=image&image=Coptic church of the Virgin Mary-Haret Zuwaila- Cairo.jpg
A manuscript i guess is one of the old coptic text.
look at the first half, 2nd line from the bottom...you'll find "[coptic]`p=o=c `v][/coptic]".
also second half, the new paragraph where you see "[coptic]PEJEP=O=CDE[/coptic]", of course that means, [coptic]Pe je `P=o=c de[/coptic]"
wow, the cool thing is that the Manuscripts above are: "Matins Prayer of the Friday of Pascha, From the Torah of Moses", also "11th hour of Good Friday of Pascha, from Exodus of Moses."
Mina (forgive me all for using English only as I can't form too technical Coptic sentences)
It doesnt matter, you'd be the only one anyway to understand the Coptic sentence anyway. We've been through this: no one here speaks Coptic. Its only you.
I would still believe the source you found as being that old didn't have a printing of [coptic]=[=c [/coptic] so instead they used [coptic]=o=c [/coptic] - in fact, if you open your psalmody book on the third page of the first cantcile ([coptic]pihwc `mmahou`it[/coptic]) you will find the word [coptic]er[oic [/coptic] in ([coptic]tajij er=[=c[/coptic]) abbreviated to [coptic]er=[=c [/coptic] (being a separate character for the abbreviation as you rightly said; but not a separate letter - this is not a Coptic letter; it is just an abbreviation). Noway that you will find [coptic]eroc [/coptic] (feminine of [coptic]erof[/coptic]) with [coptic]er=o=c [/coptic] as it doesn't make sense (to abbreviate a four lettered word in the first place). I think this supports my assumption that [coptic]er=[=c [/coptic] should be exactly like [coptic]P=[=c [/coptic] and it is not an [coptic]o [/coptic] - however in the olden manuscripts it was printed like that because of the difficult to connect two letters on the same line together (something to do with the space bar and the demography of letters in typewriters and printers).
Again, I don't have much proof of what I am assuming, but I am still holding on to my opinion and I hope someone correct me if I am wrong
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
Mina (again forgive me all that I can't be using Coptic for these rather too technical sentences),
I would still believe the source you found as being that old didn't have a printing of [coptic]=[=c [/coptic] so instead they used [coptic]=o=c [/coptic] - in fact, if you open your psalmody book on the third page of the first cantcile ([coptic]pihwc `mmahou`it[/coptic]) you will find the word [coptic]er[oic [/coptic] in ([coptic]tajij er=[=c[/coptic]) abbreviated to [coptic]er=[=c [/coptic] (being a separate character for the abbreviation as you rightly said; but not a separate letter - this is not a Coptic letter; it is just an abbreviation). Noway that you will find [coptic]eroc [/coptic] (feminine of [coptic]erof[/coptic]) with [coptic]er=o=c [/coptic] as it doesn't make sense (to abbreviate a four lettered word in the first place). I think this supports my assumption that [coptic]er=[=c [/coptic] should be exactly like [coptic]P=[=c [/coptic] and it is not an [coptic]o [/coptic] - however in the olden manuscripts it was printed like that because of the difficult to connect two letters on the same line together (something to do with the space bar and the demography of letters in typewriters and printers).
Again, I don't have much proof of what I am assuming, but I am still holding on to my opinion and I hope someone correct me if I am wrong
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]
wait. I thought since the manuscrupt is in fact written, not copyed, is the most right. the only reason they would make [coptic][oic[/coptic], [coptic]-o-c[/coptic], it's own charachter, [coptic]¡[/coptic], that would make it EASY to print. but if you are writting, what difference does it make?!
also in the pslmody [coptic]er[oic[/coptic] is spelled [coptic]er=o=c[/coptic].
about "[coptic]eroc[/coptic]", you just said it. the word is 4 letter, there is no abbreviation for it. I have never seen one in any coptic texts.
also one more thing....Not all coptic words are abbreviated. We all know the number are yes, abbreviated becuase there is no numbers in coptic, like the hebrew....
for example, i learned that you have [coptic]`,ryctoc[/coptic] and [coptic]`,rictoc.[/coptic] [coptic]`<rictoc [/coptic]is Christ, which makes it capital and abbreviated in [coptic]=,=c.[/coptic] but not the same goes for [coptic]`,ryctoc[/coptic] which comes from good/goodness.
[coptic]`fouwnh je `n;ok pe etcohi qa paiouon - alla eina`cqai `mmoc nem ou [ `mmon ou o sa]amoni `nououwhem ebolqen nirwmi `nte rem`n<ymi ma`nnat[/coptic]
It seems you are right on this one - but I will keep writing it with [coptic][ [/coptic] rather than an [coptic]o [/coptic] till I get an answer from the people of Remenkimi website
[coptic]oujai qen P=[=c[/coptic]