Hey everyone i was wondering is Ibrahim ayad an Archdeacon or is he at the rank of Deacon because im unsure like ive seen pictures of him wearing the black but i was just wondering
I would be pretty surprised if he was not an archdeacon. He's the muallem of St. Mark's Cathedral in Cairo. That's a huge title. Also, I'm pretty sure deacons don't wear the black outfit. Only Archdeacons do.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7177.msg95074#msg95074 date=1223159421] I would be pretty surprised if he was not an archdeacon. He's the muallem of St. Mark's Cathedral in Cairo. That's a huge title. Also, I'm pretty sure deacons don't wear the black outfit. Only Archdeacons do.
PK
Since Deacons are considered clergy, they also wear black.
He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
He wears the black faragia because he is a graduate of the Clerical College. Which means he is not required to wear it daily, but is allowed to wear it on occasions like Easter, Christmas, Weddings, Funerals, Special Feasts etc.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95079#msg95079 date=1223170079] He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7177.msg95120#msg95120 date=1223250061] [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95079#msg95079 date=1223170079] He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
No. Epidiakons are subdeacons. There are not clergy. Only full Deacons and Archdeacons are clergy and can wear black.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7177.msg95124#msg95124 date=1223250592] [quote author=minagir link=topic=7177.msg95120#msg95120 date=1223250061] [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95079#msg95079 date=1223170079] He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
No. Epidiakons are subdeacons. There are not clergy. Only full Deacons and Archdeacons are clergy and can wear black.
actually you are right. i miscounted the 7 ranks in our Church.
there are 7??? im soooo lost haha i know the basic 5 what are the other 2 and in anba mettaous he doesn't mention the other 2 ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/14644/Deacons
[quote author=Copticdeacon link=topic=7177.msg95127#msg95127 date=1223251558] there are 7??? im soooo lost haha i know the basic 5 what are the other 2 and in anba mettaous he doesn't mention the other 2 ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/14644/Deacons
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7177.msg95120#msg95120 date=1223250061] [quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95079#msg95079 date=1223170079] He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
I was told by my priest and as well as other clergy members. what is your source?
[quote author=Copticdeacon link=topic=7177.msg95152#msg95152 date=1223324874] whats the difference between the 7 ranks of the church and of deaconship..sorry im just really confused now
The 7 orders of the Church are the whole Church, they consist of (if i am not mistaken): Deacon, Arch-deacon, Preists, Hegomens, Bishops, Metropolitans, and finally the Pope. (i think i messed up.... i am not toaly sure about the first 2 (like the Deacon part) )
and the order of Deacons is: Epsaltos, Aghnostos, Epidiacon, Deacon, Arch-deacon.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95157#msg95157 date=1223327410] I was told by my priest and as well as other clergy members. what is your source?
what coptic pharaoh said makes it clear why. a source is a book of abouna Tadrous Yacoub. also I have Anba Rafel recording say that these are the full seven ranks of the Church.
I am not saying they are not clergy members, just not fully.
the first 3 ranks (leaving out arch-epsolotos just for it's main reason), are introductory ranks for the main rank, Ediakon, full deacon. the main proof is that ediakon is the first rank ordained by laying of hands.....like a priest.
I agree more with the first one, but in the end, these are the levels of priesthood!
there is nothing higher than a bishop... thus the pope is just mere big brother, not higher in rank!
and for the deacon, the archdeacon is nothing but a mere big brother to the other deacons... same goes with the priests!
aghnastos is clergy... that's why the bishop will cut the hair!
for Ibrahim ayad, he is an aghnastos, thus why he is able to read the gospel! and the only reason he wears the black, is because he is a professor in the clerical school... also the students wear the black. its more of a uniform!
also Ibrahim Ayad's main job is being a deacon, he gets paid for it, so as we said aghnastos is one of the levels of clergy, so that gives him the right to wear the black, because he is a full time aghnastos, and clergy!
yea anba david said that aghnastos is the 1st actual rank of deaconship so arch epsaltos is not considered a rank or is it like an actual rank where there are certain prayers and certain things done in the rite of ordination?
but to me , and Arch-Epsaltos sounds higher than Aughnostos, (i know thei is wrong), but i dunno, it just sounds like it. And i beleive Ibrahim Ayad is an Arch deacon
Ibrahim Ayad is not an archdeacon at all. Archepsaltos is a true rank with prayers as any true rank does. But copticdeacon is correct, in the original rites, Oghnostos was the first rank of the deacon
[quote author=coptic pharaoh link=topic=7177.msg95172#msg95172 date=1223339794] but to me , and Arch-Epsaltos sounds higher than Aughnostos, (i know thei is wrong), but i dunno, it just sounds like it. And i beleive Ibrahim Ayad is an Arch deacon
It says: Cantor Ibrahim Ayad is the lead deacon in the Cathedral in Cairo, Egypt and at present time is one of few authoritative figures on Coptic Hymns.
He's a cantor....what do you expect him to be. he's the pope's deacon and a great mualem. he lead's the Cathedral's chorus. we sometimes lead the chorus of deacons in church.....does that mean we are all "archdeacons"??!!
In order to be ordained a Deacon, does one completely give their life to the service? I mean specifically, do they stop working, and take on a salary from the church as an official clergymen, or has it happened that one is ordained a deacon without working full time at the church? This doesn't seem right since this is the reason for the ordination, along with going to work everyday in a black robe! lol
I am going ot say what i think (this will most probably be wrong, nobody go all Bazerk on me please): I think if the Church can support them (like if they have enough money and all) then they should dedicate their life to Church, but if they can not be supported fully, then they get their own job, while still serving at the Church..... (i know this is most probably wrong, please nobody go all offensive on me)
[quote author=Tishori link=topic=7177.msg95198#msg95198 date=1223421806] Random Side Note Question:
In order to be ordained a Deacon, does one completely give their life to the service? I mean specifically, do they stop working, and take on a salary from the church as an official clergymen, or has it happened that one is ordained a deacon without working full time at the church? This doesn't seem right since this is the reason for the ordination, along with going to work everyday in a black robe! lol
Yes you completely give your life to being a deacon. You quit your job or whatever you are doing and dedicate your time to church and your salary comes from the church as well. (this also applies to Cantors like muallem Ibrahim Ayad whose job is teaching hymns)
the reason I ask, is because i came across this album of a the ordination of a deacon in the LA area. He looks very young, not even 40 and it just surprises me that he would give his life to the service at such a young age. Don't get me wrong, this is a huge blessing and honor, I would just like to know the logistics.
Thanks Coptic Pharaoh! And Thanks to everyone else in advance!
[quote author=Tishori link=topic=7177.msg95204#msg95204 date=1223422350] the reason I ask, is because i came across this album of a the ordination of a deacon in the LA area. He looks very young, not even 40 and it just surprises me that he would give his life to the service at such a young age. Don't get me wrong, this is a huge blessing and honor, I would just like to know the logistics.
Thanks Coptic Pharaoh! And Thanks to everyone else in advance!
If you are talking about the topic that was on Coptichymns.net about this, it also said somewhere that he will be ordained a priest in two weeks(which doesn't make sense to me since there was no reason for the ordination to being a deacon in the first place) http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-8584-p-66692.html#66692
Comments
PK
I would be pretty surprised if he was not an archdeacon. He's the muallem of St. Mark's Cathedral in Cairo. That's a huge title. Also, I'm pretty sure deacons don't wear the black outfit. Only Archdeacons do.
PK
Since Deacons are considered clergy, they also wear black.
He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95079#msg95079 date=1223170079]
He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
No. Epidiakons are subdeacons. There are not clergy. Only full Deacons and Archdeacons are clergy and can wear black.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7177.msg95120#msg95120 date=1223250061]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95079#msg95079 date=1223170079]
He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
No. Epidiakons are subdeacons. There are not clergy. Only full Deacons and Archdeacons are clergy and can wear black.
actually you are right. i miscounted the 7 ranks in our Church.
there are 7??? im soooo lost haha i know the basic 5 what are the other 2 and in anba mettaous he doesn't mention the other 2 ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/14644/Deacons
I ment 7 ranks of the church not deaconship
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7177.msg95079#msg95079 date=1223170079]
He is not an archdeacon or a full deacon. He is what the pope recently ranked him as "arch epsaltos." He is just in charge of leading the deacons outside. Nothing more
what's your source of that. As jydeacon just said, Ibrahim Ayad is an oghnostos. granting him the rank of "arch-epsaltos" is lowering him in rank, not raising him.
(i.e. arch-epsoltos is the second rank of deaconship. was given to cantors who are blind becasue they couldn't be ordained to other ranks, not being able to do the other ranks duties.)
FYI: deacons, general, are considered clergy men, but FULLY are when they become Epiziakons, which is the first rank of deaconship that is ordained by the laying of hands, if you'd ever see the ordination of epiziakons. so not all can wear black, only epiziakons and only those who truly full servants of the church......
I was told by my priest and as well as other clergy members.
what is your source?
whats the difference between the 7 ranks of the church and of deaconship..sorry im just really confused now
The 7 orders of the Church are the whole Church, they consist of (if i am not mistaken): Deacon, Arch-deacon, Preists, Hegomens, Bishops, Metropolitans, and finally the Pope. (i think i messed up.... i am not toaly sure about the first 2 (like the Deacon part) )
and the order of Deacons is: Epsaltos, Aghnostos, Epidiacon, Deacon, Arch-deacon.
please correct me if i am wrong.
I was told by my priest and as well as other clergy members.
what is your source?
what coptic pharaoh said makes it clear why. a source is a book of abouna Tadrous Yacoub. also I have Anba Rafel recording say that these are the full seven ranks of the Church.
I am not saying they are not clergy members, just not fully.
the first 3 ranks (leaving out arch-epsolotos just for it's main reason), are introductory ranks for the main rank, Ediakon, full deacon. the main proof is that ediakon is the first rank ordained by laying of hands.....like a priest.
2.sub-deacon,
3.deacon/archdeacon,
4.priest/archpriest,
5.bishop/archbishop
some say... its seven...
1.aghnastos,
2.sub-deacon,
3.deacon,
4.archdeacon,
5.priest,
6.archpriest,
7.bishop/archbishop
I agree more with the first one, but in the end, these are the levels of priesthood!
there is nothing higher than a bishop... thus the pope is just mere big brother, not higher in rank!
and for the deacon, the archdeacon is nothing but a mere big brother to the other deacons... same goes with the priests!
aghnastos is clergy... that's why the bishop will cut the hair!
for Ibrahim ayad, he is an aghnastos, thus why he is able to read the gospel! and the only reason he wears the black, is because he is a professor in the clerical school... also the students wear the black. its more of a uniform!
also Ibrahim Ayad's main job is being a deacon, he gets paid for it, so as we said aghnastos is one of the levels of clergy, so that gives him the right to wear the black, because he is a full time aghnastos, and clergy!
akhdna el baraka... neshkor allah!
And i beleive Ibrahim Ayad is an Arch deacon
look at this: http://tasbeha.org/media/?person=Ibrahim+Ayad
but to me , and Arch-Epsaltos sounds higher than Aughnostos, (i know thei is wrong), but i dunno, it just sounds like it.
And i beleive Ibrahim Ayad is an Arch deacon
look at this: http://tasbeha.org/media/?person=Ibrahim+Ayad
what's your point.
It says:
Cantor Ibrahim Ayad is the lead deacon in the Cathedral in Cairo, Egypt and at present time is one of few authoritative figures on Coptic Hymns.
He's a cantor....what do you expect him to be. he's the pope's deacon and a great mualem. he lead's the Cathedral's chorus. we sometimes lead the chorus of deacons in church.....does that mean we are all "archdeacons"??!!
In order to be ordained a Deacon, does one completely give their life to the service? I mean specifically, do they stop working, and take on a salary from the church as an official clergymen, or has it happened that one is ordained a deacon without working full time at the church? This doesn't seem right since this is the reason for the ordination, along with going to work everyday in a black robe! lol
Random Side Note Question:
In order to be ordained a Deacon, does one completely give their life to the service? I mean specifically, do they stop working, and take on a salary from the church as an official clergymen, or has it happened that one is ordained a deacon without working full time at the church? This doesn't seem right since this is the reason for the ordination, along with going to work everyday in a black robe! lol
Yes you completely give your life to being a deacon. You quit your job or whatever you are doing and dedicate your time to church and your salary comes from the church as well. (this also applies to Cantors like muallem Ibrahim Ayad whose job is teaching hymns)
Thanks Coptic Pharaoh!
And Thanks to everyone else in advance!
the reason I ask, is because i came across this album of a the ordination of a deacon in the LA area. He looks very young, not even 40 and it just surprises me that he would give his life to the service at such a young age. Don't get me wrong, this is a huge blessing and honor, I would just like to know the logistics.
Thanks Coptic Pharaoh!
And Thanks to everyone else in advance!
If you are talking about the topic that was on Coptichymns.net about this, it also said somewhere that he will be ordained a priest in two weeks(which doesn't make sense to me since there was no reason for the ordination to being a deacon in the first place) http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-8584-p-66692.html#66692