Why should I PM any priests and criticise their actions? That is for their own bishops to do.
The fact is that our Church presently considers both the baptism and eucharist of the Roman Catholic Church to be defective, and has raised both of these sacraments as serious issues that require dialogue and discussion between our Churches.
Though my personal opinion tends to be that the Roman Catholic baptism by affusion should be accepted, nevertheless the clear instruction of the Coptic Orthodox Church means that I must baptise by immersion any Roman Catholic coming to join the Orthodox Church. If the instruction were not clear then I would be willing to accept the Roman Catholic baptism. But in fact the instruction cannot be ignored. If a Coptic Orthodox priest receives a Roman Catholic by chrismation only then this is a matter for the bishop concerned to judge.
But I know this is not normal practice. Indeed I know of converts to the COC who have had to be rebaptised because they were received by chrismation in one situation and when moving to another country the local bishop would not accept them as Orthodox.
If the Roman Catholic baptism is not accepted, apart from in special and particular circumstances, then the other sacraments certainly are not - even though this does not mean that they are condemned or considered empty of grace.
But the main issue is, the Church forbids her members to receive communion in the Roman Catholic Church. To do so is to be disobedient. I am not sure that another reason is required in terms of our own practice. We may wish to ask questions of the Church, and even investigate the matter and see if another view is possible. But when we are disobedient then we separate ourselves from the Church.
A quick google shows a lot of people asking if a Catholic and Coptic Orthodox can marry, and all the answers being given, (as I would expect) say that the Coptic Orthodox would be, and is, excommunicate, if he does so. All say that the Catholic party could become Coptic Orthodox by baptism and then the marriage could be conducted between two Orthodox Christians.
One response does say that a Catholic-Coptic marriage would be forbidden in Egypt but that it is allowed in some places in the US. This suggests that some US churches are pushing the boundaries of what is permitted.
The answer on the SUSCOPTS website says...
Recently the Catholic Church has been accepting and performing mixed marriages, not only between a Catholic and a Christian from another different denomination, but even between a Catholic and a person from another religion. However, this is not the case with the Coptic Church. In the Coptic Crowning ceremony (i.e. the marriage ceremony) the officiating priest puts the priesthood robe on the bridegroom; thus symbolizing that he is the priest of this new family being formed through Holy Spirit. How can one be a priest to a family each member of which believe in different dogmas.
We do believe that the Catholic Church is an Apostolic Church; but until we resolve these dogmatic dissimilarities; we are not in full communion. I highly recommend that you sit with a Coptic priest and get him to explain to both of you the differences between the two faiths. Believe me, it is very important for your marriage that both of you have the same beliefs and commit yourselves to one Church so that your future children feel they belong to one Church and do not get confused.
and
Therefore, if someone is seriously and genuinely interested in marrying someone from our church, the following steps must be established:
1. Believe wholeheartedly & unconditionally in the teachings of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which are the true Christian doctrines.
2. Begin a spiritual agenda with a spiritual father from our church who will guide in confession and spiritual growth.
3. Be baptized and confirmed in the Coptic Orthodox Church. [Very few exceptions are allowed for a few Orthodox churches, which also baptize by immersion, to receive the Holy Chrismation, Myron Oil for Confirmation only.]
So certainly the SUSCOPTS follow the practice as I have understood it, that the baptism of Roman Catholics is not presently accepted, and therefore the other sacraments are not either. This seems to be the understanding of the position of the Holy Synod as understood my own bishop, by Metropolitan Bishoy and by Bishop Youssef.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=7598.msg124983#msg124983 date=1292855016] Why should I PM any priests and criticise their actions? That is for their own bishops to do.
Sorry, it should have said "PM ME, and take it up with the priests..." - i.e. I will NOT publish their names here. I meant, if you wanted to know more about why priests were doing this, I could tell you, but offline.
My apologies.. I wasn't clear.
The fact is that our Church presently considers both the baptism and eucharist of the Roman Catholic Church to be defective, and has raised both of these sacraments as serious issues that require dialogue and discussion between our Churches.
Yes.. that was what my understanding was. But apparently things have changed.
Though my personal opinion tends to be that the Roman Catholic baptism by affusion should be accepted, nevertheless the clear instruction of the Coptic Orthodox Church means that I must baptise by immersion any Roman Catholic coming to join the Orthodox Church. If the instruction were not clear then I would be willing to accept the Roman Catholic baptism. But in fact the instruction cannot be ignored. If a Coptic Orthodox priest receives a Roman Catholic by chrismation only then this is a matter for the bishop concerned to judge.
You are right. We should be obedient to what the Church instructs. But as I'm telling you, there appears to be a change in this. I'm not entirely FOR this movement either. I would be cautious about baptising a Catholic in our Church. It really has to be for the right reasons, and for me, marriage is the WRONGEST reason to baptise someone - which REALLY seems to be happening a lot in our Church.
But I know this is not normal practice. Indeed I know of converts to the COC who have had to be rebaptised because they were received by chrismation in one situation and when moving to another country the local bishop would not accept them as Orthodox.
If the Roman Catholic baptism is not accepted, apart from in special and particular circumstances, then the other sacraments certainly are not - even though this does not mean that they are condemned or considered empty of grace.
But the main issue is, the Church forbids her members to receive communion in the Roman Catholic Church. To do so is to be disobedient. I am not sure that another reason is required in terms of our own practice. We may wish to ask questions of the Church, and even investigate the matter and see if another view is possible. But when we are disobedient then we separate ourselves from the Church.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=7598.msg124984#msg124984 date=1292857741] A quick google shows a lot of people asking if a Catholic and Coptic Orthodox can marry, and all the answers being given, (as I would expect) say that the Coptic Orthodox would be, and is, excommunicate, if he does so. All say that the Catholic party could become Coptic Orthodox by baptism and then the marriage could be conducted between two Orthodox Christians.
I am dead against such marriages anyway. Conversion should be based on faith, not for marriage to another person.
One response does say that a Catholic-Coptic marriage would be forbidden in Egypt but that it is allowed in some places in the US. This suggests that some US churches are pushing the boundaries of what is permitted.
The answer on the SUSCOPTS website says...
Recently the Catholic Church has been accepting and performing mixed marriages, not only between a Catholic and a Christian from another different denomination, but even between a Catholic and a person from another religion. However, this is not the case with the Coptic Church. In the Coptic Crowning ceremony (i.e. the marriage ceremony) the officiating priest puts the priesthood robe on the bridegroom; thus symbolizing that he is the priest of this new family being formed through Holy Spirit. How can one be a priest to a family each member of which believe in different dogmas.
See, this response isn't really clear concerning Holy Communion. Concerning marriages - yes, the RC have married Coptic with Catholic and Catholic with protestant... its a disgrace.. There's even been muslim with catholic.
We do believe that the Catholic Church is an Apostolic Church; but until we resolve these dogmatic dissimilarities; we are not in full communion.
See, this statement was the basis of the discussion we had in Sunday School concerning this issue:
We started by saying that the RC is an Apostolic Church. Therefore, as an Apostolic Church, it has a valid priesthood. Therefore, its sacraments are valid. Therefore this IS the True Body and Blood on the Altar.
That was roughly how the Sunday School teacher broke into the subject of the Holy Communion in the RC being actual Body and Blood of Christ.
I highly recommend that you sit with a Coptic priest and get him to explain to both of you the differences between the two faiths. Believe me, it is very important for your marriage that both of you have the same beliefs and commit yourselves to one Church so that your future children feel they belong to one Church and do not get confused.
I think I understand the differences, and its because I understand the differences, I'm asking this question. IF THIS IS THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST in the Catholic Church, why shouldn't a Coptic Christian be allowed to partake of it if there are no Coptic Churches around?
and
Therefore, if someone is seriously and genuinely interested in marrying someone from our church, the following steps must be established:
1. Believe wholeheartedly & unconditionally in the teachings of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which are the true Christian doctrines.
2. Begin a spiritual agenda with a spiritual father from our church who will guide in confession and spiritual growth.
3. Be baptized and confirmed in the Coptic Orthodox Church. [Very few exceptions are allowed for a few Orthodox churches, which also baptize by immersion, to receive the Holy Chrismation, Myron Oil for Confirmation only.]
So certainly the SUSCOPTS follow the practice as I have understood it, that the baptism of Roman Catholics is not presently accepted, and therefore the other sacraments are not either. This seems to be the understanding of the position of the Holy Synod as understood my own bishop, by Metropolitan Bishoy and by Bishop Youssef.
The Assyrian Church of the East is also an Apostolic Church. This says something of the origin of a community, it does not say that it is still Orthodox.
If a Church is not Orthodox then it is not Orthodox, so to receive communion among a non-Orthodox community is to abandon Orthodoxy.
Without exhausting the reasons someone might want to make such a change of jurisdiction (and to some extent it could also apply to a Greek Orthodox changing to a Russian Orthodox community or some other different ethnicity), some might be:
i. Due to marriage with a member of an OO community. ii. Due to lack of any EO within any sort of travel distance, or likelihood of any ever being within distance. iii. Change in theological views concerning Chalcedon. iv. Appreciation of greater cultural variety within OOxy. v. Development of relationship with particular OO community. vi. Sense of spiritual leading towards OOxy. vii. Sense of being more at home among OO.
It does not seem to me that it is best to think of OO being better in a comparative sense, although I am convinced that OOxy is the fulness of the Orthodox faith. It seems to me better to consider moving in response to a spiritual leading and sense of being drawn in such a direction. The grass is not necessarily greener. Life may well continue to be difficult. But if we are led in a direction by the Lord then we may believe that it is for our salvation. For myself, I would be no-where else.
Increasingly it is important in the UK to think of being Orthodox rather than Coptic. The Council of Oriental Orthodox Churches has a growing sense of vision in regard to helping all OO experience a sense of being members of one Church. Certainly for myself, I love the worship in my own community, but find it wonderful to worship with Copts, Armenians, Indians, Syrians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, French and British, all as members of one Church and one communion. I can sit in a room with an Egyptian bishop, a Syrian archbishop, a British Metropolitan, Armenian, Ethiopian, Indian and Eritrean priests, and have a wonderful sense of unity. Real brotherly unity.
For someone in London it is possible to worship in many places (understanding there is a language issues), but also to attend the English Bible study under Father Vahan at the Armenian Church, which I will try to do in the better weather. I hope that this sense of being able to benefit from many different active communities will increase each year. It is certainly our hope that this will be the case on the Council. It does perhaps seem to me, and I may be wrong, that the OO are increasingly seeking to face the challenges of being part of British society, while perhaps some of the EO are focussing on serving only their immigrant congregation which is a legitimate pastoral responsibility. The Indians, for instance, have just held a large family conference. The Armenians are starting two new missions in Dublin and Cardiff. The Syrians have just consecrated a cathedral. It seems to me that things are happening. And of course we are planning 4 Orthodox Education Days in 2011 and the Oriental Orthodox Festival.
In the end though, a person must always have a sense that making a move is something they must do. It is perhaps not quite so drastic as moving from Catholicism or Protestantism to Orthodoxy. But it is still a serious decision.
Comments
The fact is that our Church presently considers both the baptism and eucharist of the Roman Catholic Church to be defective, and has raised both of these sacraments as serious issues that require dialogue and discussion between our Churches.
Though my personal opinion tends to be that the Roman Catholic baptism by affusion should be accepted, nevertheless the clear instruction of the Coptic Orthodox Church means that I must baptise by immersion any Roman Catholic coming to join the Orthodox Church. If the instruction were not clear then I would be willing to accept the Roman Catholic baptism. But in fact the instruction cannot be ignored. If a Coptic Orthodox priest receives a Roman Catholic by chrismation only then this is a matter for the bishop concerned to judge.
But I know this is not normal practice. Indeed I know of converts to the COC who have had to be rebaptised because they were received by chrismation in one situation and when moving to another country the local bishop would not accept them as Orthodox.
If the Roman Catholic baptism is not accepted, apart from in special and particular circumstances, then the other sacraments certainly are not - even though this does not mean that they are condemned or considered empty of grace.
But the main issue is, the Church forbids her members to receive communion in the Roman Catholic Church. To do so is to be disobedient. I am not sure that another reason is required in terms of our own practice. We may wish to ask questions of the Church, and even investigate the matter and see if another view is possible. But when we are disobedient then we separate ourselves from the Church.
Father Peter
One response does say that a Catholic-Coptic marriage would be forbidden in Egypt but that it is allowed in some places in the US. This suggests that some US churches are pushing the boundaries of what is permitted.
The answer on the SUSCOPTS website says...
Recently the Catholic Church has been accepting and performing mixed marriages, not only between a Catholic and a Christian from another different denomination, but even between a Catholic and a person from another religion. However, this is not the case with the Coptic Church. In the Coptic Crowning ceremony (i.e. the marriage ceremony) the officiating priest puts the priesthood robe on the bridegroom; thus symbolizing that he is the priest of this new family being formed through Holy Spirit. How can one be a priest to a family each member of which believe in different dogmas.
We do believe that the Catholic Church is an Apostolic Church; but until we resolve these dogmatic dissimilarities; we are not in full communion. I highly recommend that you sit with a Coptic priest and get him to explain to both of you the differences between the two faiths. Believe me, it is very important for your marriage that both of you have the same beliefs and commit yourselves to one Church so that your future children feel they belong to one Church and do not get confused.
and
Therefore, if someone is seriously and genuinely interested in marrying someone from our church, the following steps must be established:
1. Believe wholeheartedly & unconditionally in the teachings of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which are the true Christian doctrines.
2. Begin a spiritual agenda with a spiritual father from our church who will guide in confession and spiritual growth.
3. Be baptized and confirmed in the Coptic Orthodox Church. [Very few exceptions are allowed for a few Orthodox churches, which also baptize by immersion, to receive the Holy Chrismation, Myron Oil for Confirmation only.]
So certainly the SUSCOPTS follow the practice as I have understood it, that the baptism of Roman Catholics is not presently accepted, and therefore the other sacraments are not either. This seems to be the understanding of the position of the Holy Synod as understood my own bishop, by Metropolitan Bishoy and by Bishop Youssef.
Why should I PM any priests and criticise their actions? That is for their own bishops to do.
Sorry, it should have said "PM ME, and take it up with the priests..." - i.e. I will NOT publish their names here. I meant, if you wanted to know more about why priests were doing this, I could tell you, but offline.
My apologies.. I wasn't clear.
Yes.. that was what my understanding was. But apparently things have changed. You are right. We should be obedient to what the Church instructs. But as I'm telling you, there appears to be a change in this. I'm not entirely FOR this movement either. I would be cautious about baptising a Catholic in our Church. It really has to be for the right reasons, and for me, marriage is the WRONGEST reason to baptise someone - which REALLY seems to be happening a lot in our Church. Cheers
A quick google shows a lot of people asking if a Catholic and Coptic Orthodox can marry, and all the answers being given, (as I would expect) say that the Coptic Orthodox would be, and is, excommunicate, if he does so. All say that the Catholic party could become Coptic Orthodox by baptism and then the marriage could be conducted between two Orthodox Christians.
I am dead against such marriages anyway. Conversion should be based on faith, not for marriage to another person. See, this response isn't really clear concerning Holy Communion. Concerning marriages - yes, the RC have married Coptic with Catholic and Catholic with protestant... its a disgrace.. There's even been muslim with catholic. See, this statement was the basis of the discussion we had in Sunday School concerning this issue:
We started by saying that the RC is an Apostolic Church. Therefore, as an Apostolic Church, it has a valid priesthood. Therefore, its sacraments are valid. Therefore this IS the True Body and Blood on the Altar.
That was roughly how the Sunday School teacher broke into the subject of the Holy Communion in the RC being actual Body and Blood of Christ. I think I understand the differences, and its because I understand the differences, I'm asking this question. IF THIS IS THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST in the Catholic Church, why shouldn't a Coptic Christian be allowed to partake of it if there are no Coptic Churches around? Agreed.
If a Church is not Orthodox then it is not Orthodox, so to receive communion among a non-Orthodox community is to abandon Orthodoxy.
Father Peter
I could pm this to you but I would like everyone's input if they have a view.
What would be the grounds for changing to the Coptic Orthodox Church from another Apostolic church particularly the Chalcedonian variety.
It seems our choices could be based on attractions and aversions difficult to justify in the light of reason.
So what could justify an already Christian to change. What is better about the non-Chalcedonian churches.
Thanks
Without exhausting the reasons someone might want to make such a change of jurisdiction (and to some extent it could also apply to a Greek Orthodox changing to a Russian Orthodox community or some other different ethnicity), some might be:
i. Due to marriage with a member of an OO community.
ii. Due to lack of any EO within any sort of travel distance, or likelihood of any ever being within distance.
iii. Change in theological views concerning Chalcedon.
iv. Appreciation of greater cultural variety within OOxy.
v. Development of relationship with particular OO community.
vi. Sense of spiritual leading towards OOxy.
vii. Sense of being more at home among OO.
It does not seem to me that it is best to think of OO being better in a comparative sense, although I am convinced that OOxy is the fulness of the Orthodox faith. It seems to me better to consider moving in response to a spiritual leading and sense of being drawn in such a direction. The grass is not necessarily greener. Life may well continue to be difficult. But if we are led in a direction by the Lord then we may believe that it is for our salvation. For myself, I would be no-where else.
Increasingly it is important in the UK to think of being Orthodox rather than Coptic. The Council of Oriental Orthodox Churches has a growing sense of vision in regard to helping all OO experience a sense of being members of one Church. Certainly for myself, I love the worship in my own community, but find it wonderful to worship with Copts, Armenians, Indians, Syrians, Ethiopians, Eritreans, French and British, all as members of one Church and one communion. I can sit in a room with an Egyptian bishop, a Syrian archbishop, a British Metropolitan, Armenian, Ethiopian, Indian and Eritrean priests, and have a wonderful sense of unity. Real brotherly unity.
For someone in London it is possible to worship in many places (understanding there is a language issues), but also to attend the English Bible study under Father Vahan at the Armenian Church, which I will try to do in the better weather. I hope that this sense of being able to benefit from many different active communities will increase each year. It is certainly our hope that this will be the case on the Council. It does perhaps seem to me, and I may be wrong, that the OO are increasingly seeking to face the challenges of being part of British society, while perhaps some of the EO are focussing on serving only their immigrant congregation which is a legitimate pastoral responsibility. The Indians, for instance, have just held a large family conference. The Armenians are starting two new missions in Dublin and Cardiff. The Syrians have just consecrated a cathedral. It seems to me that things are happening. And of course we are planning 4 Orthodox Education Days in 2011 and the Oriental Orthodox Festival.
In the end though, a person must always have a sense that making a move is something they must do. It is perhaps not quite so drastic as moving from Catholicism or Protestantism to Orthodoxy. But it is still a serious decision.
Father Peter