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On doing the sign of the cross

mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Psalm 63 (New King James Version)

Psalm 63

A Psalm of David when he was in the wilderness of Judah.

1 O God, You are my God;
         Early will I seek You;
         My soul thirsts for You;
         My flesh longs for You
         In a dry and thirsty land
         Where there is no water.
2 So I have looked for You in the sanctuary,
         To see Your power and Your glory.
         
3 Because Your lovingkindness is better than life,
         My lips shall praise You.
4 Thus I will bless You while I live;
        I will lift up my hands in Your name.
5 My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness,
         And my mouth shall praise You with joyful lips.
         
6 When I remember You on my bed,
         I meditate on You in the night watches.
7 Because You have been my help,
         Therefore in the shadow of Your wings I will rejoice.
8 My soul follows close behind You;
         Your right hand upholds me.
         
9 But those who seek my life, to destroy it,
         Shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
10 They shall fall by the sword;
         They shall be a portion for jackals.
         
11 But the king shall rejoice in God;
         Everyone who swears by Him shall glory;
         But the mouth of those who speak lies shall be stopped.

This psalm is probably why we do the sign of the cross.. what do you think?

Comments

  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Dear mikeforjesus,

    The practice of making the sign of the cross originated in Apostolic times, and is part of the unwritten tradition which was passed on from the first Christian generation. Tertullian describes the practice as part of the tradition of the Church when he was writing in about 200 AD. Many other writers from this period refer to the practice, especially as associated with baptism.

    It would seem clear that the Apostles introduced, promoted, or encouraged this practice so that it was universal after a generation or two. Tertullian is explicit that it does not derive from a Biblical injunction, but is part of the holy tradition we pass on. Indeed at the beginning there was no New Testament to insist on this sign in any case.

    The Tradition (not every tradition, some of which are local customs) is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, and even before the New Testament was written the Holy Spirit was leading the Church into a life of truth and love. And it is in this context that the sign of the cross was introduced. At the beginning, and for many centuries afterwards, the sign of the cross was made on the forehead with the thumb. The manner in which we know make the sign of the cross (I mean all those Christians around the world who do so) developed later.

    The particular verse you highlighted made me immediately think of the ancient manner of prayer in which the Christian stood with palms held facing upwards. Like this .. http://www.nickchurch.org/Intercessions/images/orans_catacomb2.jpg

    God bless you

    Father Peter
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    Ok. Thanks.

    do you know any stories on the power of the sign of the cross.. I don't feel comfortable that only us orthodox do the sign of the cross..






  • egyboyegyboy
    who said only Orthodox Christians make the Sign of the Cross?? i went to catholic school for elementary school and high school and they always did the Sign of the Cross.  I think even protestants do the sign of the Cross so its not just us.. its all Christians.
  • egyboyegyboy
    and regarding your question about the Power of the Sign of the Cross, read this: http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/8_23.html#1
    it is the story of the Martyrdom of St. George. The third paragraph is about the Power of the Sign of the Cross.

    please pray for me and my weakness
  • CopticdeaconCopticdeacon
    I have another question that has to do with this. When we do the sign of the cross we say In the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit One God Amen. Im in Bible Club at my school and I showed a sermon in english by Abouna Anthony Messeh and the second they heard  him say In the name of the Father... they said we don't say that...and I asked why and they said you could also be saying in the name of the devil because he is the father of lies the son of perdition and i forgot the other one. So I told them...but we say One God after...so we are identifying who it is...the One the Only True God. But they didn't agree...but I also feel I didn't explain it in a good way so please tell me why exactly we say In the name...
  • mikeforjesusmikeforjesus
    protestants do not do the sign of the cross.. well I don't think they depend on it for protection
  • Unknown
    I believe,

    It's the strangest most shocking comment ever said by 'Christians'......

    Mark 16:16
    He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    Matthew 28:19
    Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    So what would they say about that? If they baptize in the name of Jesus Christ they surely know that He and the Father and the Holy Spirit are worshiped as One: the Holy Trinity the One and only God.

    This is unacceptable. Obviously your friends were misguided by bad teaching.

    And what do they say on the many times Jesus spoke about or with the Father in the Gospels?? Let their 'teacher' count how many times the word father is found in the Bible and how many times it meant good vs. evil.

    Matthew 11:27
    All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

    Matthew 13:43
    Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

    Matthew 10:32 Confess Christ Before Men
    “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

    The unique sign of the Son of man that will appear in heaven in His 2nd coming is the sign of the Cross. I think you should advice them on this critical issue.

    GBU
  • CopticdeaconCopticdeacon
    Good point John...anyone else?
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    What community do they belong to? It does not sound like anything any normal Protestant would say, since clearly it is entirely Scriptural to use the form..

    in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

    If you find out where they are from then we would have a better idea of why they would say such a thing.

    Doing some research I find that this idea...

    Nowhere in the bible is any type of triad or trinity mentioned. It is a Pagan idea adopted by "Apostate People", who called themselves "Christians or Christ's", but denied him in baptism and godhead.


    is found on a site that also uses the idea of Father of Lies, Son of Perdition, Spirit of Inquity. Therefore it would seem to me that these people you have been speaking to deny the Trinity and are not Christians at all. Perhaps they are Jehovah's Witnesses, or an extreme type of Pentecostalist but they are not Christians in any sense that most Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants would understand. That is not to say they are bad people - but what they believe is wrong and not Christian.

    Father Peter
  • AvvaAntoniAvvaAntoni
    Speaking about the sign of the cross.... Why do we and the eastern orthodox differ in how we do the sign of the cross. We start off with the forehead, going down to the abdomen and we go to our left then to the right. The eastern orthodox go from right to left. Is there a reason why it is like that? If so, when did this change happen and why did it happen?

    With Love,
    Antoni
  • geomike
    I heard it is because of this reason. We do it the way we do because we believe that God takes us from darkness(left) to light(right). The Eastern Orthodox do it the way they do it because, well, i forgot why they go left first, but they like to end at the heart(right) i don't remember the reason though
  • Unknown
    The Eastern Orthodox Christians make the sign of the cross from Right to Left because of how the prayer itself is in Greek (and Coptic): En onoma tou Patros kai tou Huiou kai tou Agiou Pnematos.  When we say "Holy," the Fathers thought it right to say it as we touch our Right shoulder.  The right side being the side of agreement, good, concord, of oathes, of strength, of majesty, and royalty: thus, saying Holy there.  Also, whatever writings of the Church I have come across before the tenth century, I've only read of the sign of the cross being done this way.  I know the Roman Church changed sometime after Francis of Assisi, because in a letter addressed to him from his bishop he is told that the sign of the cross is made with the thumb and first two fingers together with the last two in the palm, and is made from the forehead to the abdomen and from right to left, as has always been the proper practice. 

    I do not, however, mean to condemn or saying someone is wrong because of this.  When the Roman Catholic Church changed their practice, it was influenced by the Latin In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, where the Latin word "holy" comes after Spirit, so they thought it right to end on the right rather than the left.  It was also a way to differentiate from the Greek Christians.  I'm not saying either direction is more correct than the other, but rather that both are right.  For Arabic, it would have to be from left to right because Bismi il-Abi wa el-Ibni wa ar-Rouhh el-Qudous, where "holy is said after Spirit--like in Latin. 

    So, from what I understand, it's largely a linguistic dependency.  Please, anyone, correct me if I am somehow wrong in my understanding of what I've researched. 
  • HezekielHezekiel
    [quote author=joseph.vandenbrink link=topic=8562.msg109281#msg109281 date=1263499700]
    The Eastern Orthodox Christians make the sign of the cross from Right to Left because of how the prayer itself is in Greek (and Coptic): En onoma tou Patros kai tou Huiou kai tou Agiou Pnematos.  When we say "Holy," the Fathers thought it right to say it as we touch our Right shoulder.  The right side being the side of agreement, good, concord, of oathes, of strength, of majesty, and royalty: thus, saying Holy there.  Also, whatever writings of the Church I have come across before the tenth century, I've only read of the sign of the cross being done this way.  I know the Roman Church changed sometime after Francis of Assisi, because in a letter addressed to him from his bishop he is told that the sign of the cross is made with the thumb and first two fingers together with the last two in the palm, and is made from the forehead to the abdomen and from right to left, as has always been the proper practice. 

    I do not, however, mean to condemn or saying someone is wrong because of this.  When the Roman Catholic Church changed their practice, it was influenced by the Latin In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, where the Latin word "holy" comes after Spirit, so they thought it right to end on the right rather than the left.  It was also a way to differentiate from the Greek Christians.  I'm not saying either direction is more correct than the other, but rather that both are right.  For Arabic, it would have to be from left to right because Bismi il-Abi wa el-Ibni wa ar-Rouhh el-Qudous, where "holy is said after Spirit--like in Latin. 

    So, from what I understand, it's largely a linguistic dependency.  Please, anyone, correct me if I am somehow wrong in my understanding of what I've researched. 


    I do not think, language is an issue here, because there are Copts and Syrians that are members of the Eastern Orthodox Chruch. They use the same words when praying in arabic, but cross themselves from right to left.
  • CopticdeaconCopticdeacon
    Sorry for the late reply Father Peter....they're actually from the Apostolic Church
  • Unknown
    While we have always crossed ourselves, it became something that was more extensively stressed during the Iconoclast controversy. Most of our icons were taken away and a great many destroyed and replaced with simple crosses, and the Iconoclasts stressed crossing ourselves sort of as a way to replace the veneration of Icons. After we got our Icons back, we continue to cross ourselves as often as we did during the controversy. It is a prayer in itself, and we must show as much respect towards the all-Holy Trinity as we can.

    [quote author=I Believe link=topic=8562.msg109769#msg109769 date=1264866655]
    Sorry for the late reply Father Peter....they're actually from the Apostolic Church


    This is a rhetorical question, but how can a church be apostolic when it was not established by the Apostles?
  • IoannesIoannes

    [quote author=I Believe link=topic=8562.msg109769#msg109769 date=1264866655]
    Sorry for the late reply Father Peter....they're actually from the Apostolic Church


    This is a rhetorical question, but how can a church be apostolic when it was not established by the Apostles?


    Mike, from the Eastern point that is true. What about the Oriental, for instance Egypt never had an iconoclastic era, atleast to my knowledge. Also a good point about the apostolic, how can they be if they actually arent and cannot historically tie themselves to the origns of the church? Well as we know in many if not most of these denominations its "Because they say so" or "God told them". They dont need a reason. My mother says a somewhat similar phrase when we discuss these topics, as she tries to convince me Orthodoxy is wrong. Thank you Mike for your input, very informative!
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