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Worshiping Angels

TzegemariamTzegemariam
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hello everyone, I came across this verse in the Holy Bible and needed some clarification on it.
Colossians 2:18 (New King James Version)

Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

I know at my Church we sing a lot of praises to the Holy Angels and Saints, so are we gulity of worshiping angels, when we pray to them and sing to them?

Someone please help me , I'm confused.

Thanks and may God Bless You all soo much

Comments

  • egyboyegyboy
    if you read the context of the hymn it would make a lot more sense.. like in Kiahk we say a lot of hymns about the Archangel Gabriel coming to St. Mary to give her the good news.. we do not worship angels or saints, but rather we thank them, and praise WITH them. because the angels worship God and the saints lived according to the will of God and so do the same.
    i hope this clears things up

    God Bless and please pray for me and my wekaness
  • MozesMozes
    If you check the words carefully in these links, you will exactly understand what egyboy is saying.Sometimes it may sound as if we worship them,though.

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1223 ; --(St Michael)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/278 ; -- ( St Gabreil

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/279 --  (St Raphael)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/286 - (St Mina)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/285 - (St George)
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Mozes link=topic=8579.msg108420#msg108420 date=1260842375]
    If you check the words carefully in these links, you will exactly understand what egyboy is saying.Sometimes it may sound as if we worship them,though.

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1223 ; --(St Michael)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/278 ; -- ( St Gabreil

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/279 --  (St Raphael)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/286 - (St Mina)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/285 - (St George)


    i know many of the texts above....NONE says we "worship them." distinguishing between "worship" and "veneration" is very important in these cases.
  • MozesMozes
    [quote author=minagir link=topic=8579.msg108424#msg108424 date=1260844880]
    [quote author=Mozes link=topic=8579.msg108420#msg108420 date=1260842375]
    If you check the words carefully in these links, you will exactly understand what egyboy is saying.Sometimes it may sound as if we worship them,though.

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1223 ; --(St Michael)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/278 ; -- ( St Gabreil

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/279 --  (St Raphael)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/286 - (St Mina)

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/cat/285 - (St George)


    i know many of the texts above....NONE says we "worship them." distinguishing between "worship" and "veneration" is very important in these cases.


    You are right. I posted the link so that the person who asked may see through the words to identify and be in clear that we only honor ,venerate and ask them to pray for us but that we do not pray directly to them.
  • TzegemariamTzegemariam
    So are we worshipping them???
    and why do we always honor the Saints and Angels???
  • MozesMozes
    [quote author=Tzegemariam link=topic=8579.msg108430#msg108430 date=1260845996]
    So are we worshipping them???
    and why do we always honor the Saints and Angels???


    No, worship is given unto God alone. We venerate Saints and ask them to pray for us to God.We  honor them to express our love and gratitude to God, whom the Saints greatly pleased.

    Check here for more info;

    http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=762&catid=210

    And also look at the answers to many questions here; http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?catid=210

    Once again, do not get confused, worship is reserved only to God. We do not pray directly to St Michael and ask him to grant us our petition. We pray thru him, so that God grants us pur heart's wish. We say, "For the sake of St Michael or Your Mother, oh Lord have mercy on me...

    Hope this helps.
  • Theophilus 1Theophilus 1
    Dear Tzegemariam

    I have similar concerns on some of our Tewhado (Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Church) hymns and praises. If we are not to say they imply worship of saints and angles it almost borderlines it. However, since hymnology is a deep field it takes much research before labeling a hymn as orthodox of unorthodox.

    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • TzegemariamTzegemariam
    Yeah I feel the same way at times,Theophilus!!!
    So is God happy when we sing songs to His Saints and Angels?
    Thank you
  • Theophilus 1Theophilus 1
    Dear Tzegmariam
    One thing we can say for sure is everything is good in moderation. The songs we sing for angels and saints in our church might be extreme at times. I have been struggling to come up with some valid explanation as to why our Tewhado church tend to venerate saints and angles to a degree it resembles worship while other Orthodox churches don’t.
    I think we can draw a parallel between Tewhado church’s current situation and the Roman Catholics during the period of counterreformation. Just as the Catholics faced with the threat of Protestants (who banish the idea of saints and angles) hold onto the tradition of venerating saints and angles even stronger our Tewahdo church also faced with a similar threat might be leaning to the other extreme in an effort to correct the error of banishing saints and angles.

    Tzegmariam, I would love to hear you point of view.

    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    It would be good if some people posted a Coptic liturgical hymn to St Michael and a comparable Ethiopian one to St Michael so we can see compare and contrast.

    Father Peter
  • Theophilus 1Theophilus 1
    Dear Fr. Peter
    I have tried to find lyrics of songs in English but failed to do so  :(.
    I will appreciate it if anyone can post lyrics of Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox songs glorifying the angles or saints.

    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • elsi70x7elsi70x7
    [quote author=Tzegemariam link=topic=8579.msg108430#msg108430 date=1260845996]
    So are we worshipping them???
    and why do we always honor the Saints and Angels???


    Tzege.....,
    are u familiar with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Tewhedo website? Here is a link to the synaxarium page: http://www.stmichaeleoc.org/Synaxarium/Tahisas_12.htm

    December 21st is celebrated in honor of St. Michael. Check out the explaination for this celebration and honor. If it is possible for us to reward Angels; this is how we try to accomplish it.......giving alms and feasting, praising and worshipping GOD who sends them to us for our benefit and relief!

    As egyboy posted we worship and praise GOD with the Angels and Saints.
  • elsi70x7elsi70x7
    [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8579.msg108470#msg108470 date=1260948795]
    It would be good if some people posted a Coptic liturgical hymn to St Michael and a comparable Ethiopian one to St Michael so we can see compare and contrast.

    Father Peter


    Father Peter,
    I think the translations are the same since it is all the same liturgy. I mean 'Thank You' means the same whether I say 'Merci' (French) or 'Amesegenalehu' (Amharic) or in any other language dosen't it?
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    Dear elsi70x7,

    The hymns/songs are not the same throughout the whole tradition. That is why we were trying to find an English translation of an Ethiopian hymn/song to one of the Angels. To compare the meaning. It is not exactly the same liturgy as that of the Copts. It is based on it certainly, but the Ethiopians have much of their own liturgical tradition expressed in it as well and their practice was also influenced by the Syrian nine monks who established the Church after it had been previously founded by St Frumentius. I have been to several Ethiopian/Eritrean liturgies and it seemed not exactly the same as the Coptic in several regards.

    Father Peter
  • Theophilus 1Theophilus 1
    Elsi
    I love the link you posted, it’s a great resource.  :D In regards to our liturgy I think Tzege’s concern is not the liturgy itself but the songs and hymns we use outside the liturgy. Personally, I find our liturgy to be theologically rich and the tune ideal for contemplation.
    My concern, which I share with Tzege is that it seems sometimes we mention the names of the saints and angels even more than Christ’s name.
    I understand that we need to approach this matter with great caution and wisdom as some ultra-orthodox go to the extreme of labeling others as protestant or reformed orthodox (Tehadso) if one calls Christ’s name one to many times and hold on to his bible to tight (you know what I mean).  ;)   
    Elsi, I look forward to hear what you think.
    P.S. It will be great if someone can find some lyrics that we may analyze it. 
    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • elsi70x7elsi70x7
    Hi Theo,
    I am very glad u have found the link I posted beneficial!  :) Honestly i do not think we should be concerned about the songs and hymns we have been using for century's.
    I do not find such a problem of mentioning Saints and Angels more than CHRIST in any Orthodox worship service I have attended. The Holy Trinity, CHRIST and the Theotokos are always the main focus of our worship.
    I do not care what other people think when it comes to my Bible.....I will hold onto it as tight as I like!! I do not think it is possible to call on CHRIST too many times.
    Why do Church people get so vain they start to think they know better than GOD??? Start questioning His ordinances?? Too much like Saducees and Pharisees, they become blind to the truth that is staring them right in the face!

    I know my Masters Voice and I do not have to 'analyze' it. Seek Theo, and u shall find!!!
    GODS Perfect Love,
    elsi
  • elsi70x7elsi70x7
    [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=8579.msg108549#msg108549 date=1261247606]
    Dear elsi70x7,

    The hymns/songs are not the same throughout the whole tradition. That is why we were trying to find an English translation of an Ethiopian hymn/song to one of the Angels. To compare the meaning. It is not exactly the same liturgy as that of the Copts. It is based on it certainly, but the Ethiopians have much of their own liturgical tradition expressed in it as well and their practice was also influenced by the Syrian nine monks who established the Church after it had been previously founded by St Frumentius. I have been to several Ethiopian/Eritrean liturgies and it seemed not exactly the same as the Coptic in several regards.

    Father Peter


    Dear Father Peter,

    No, it is not 'exactly' the same; but what is? Just like maternal twins are not exactly the same even though they have come from the same. I think if we look at creation we see that our Almighty GOD loves variety! Different variations on the same theme!
    When you study and compare the Syrian, Coptic and Ethiopian hymns I think u will find the differences are minimal because they have one goal......Praising and Thanking GOD for His endless mercy and innumerous gifts and blessings He gives to mankind by the hand of His Angels and Saints who do His Will.
    GOD Be With You Always,

    elsi
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