Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
.
.
Comments
it is an answer of the Southern Diocese of America to a question that is important for your understanding on this topic.
God created sex as a means to procreate and multiply. That's the only reason. but for us to fornicate and disobey God is a direct sin and it will take us away from God.
"3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them." -Ephesians 5:3-7
Pray that God guides you to the right path and leads you throughout the way into His Kingdom.
God Bless and please pray for me and my weakness
what if she/he leaves you straight after having sex? then you are no longer keeping yourself pure for the next person. what if, God forbid, she or he dies before you marry?
egyboy is right, and also you loose nothing by waiting until you are married, except you loose an opportunity to sin.
Sex is holy?
Physical intimacy is both for the ongoing survival of humanity, and is also a means of pleasure and comfort for the strengthening of the bonds between a husband and wife. The Fathers teach us that in the beginning God created humanity as male and female, and therefore the sexual aspect of our being is both good and in the will of God. Our sexuality is not part of the Fall of humanity as some have taught in the past. The Fathers teach us that seeing that Adam and Eve would sin, God created them in such a way that through procreation the human race would survive. Yet in the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were entirely complete in their own male and female sexuality and were not ashamed.
Just as the use of the appetite was part of the created human order, nevertheless there was a right and a wrong way to exercise that created aspect of our humanity. Adam and Eve fell into sin by the wrong exercise of their will when they chose to serve themselves rather than God's will. So our sexuality, created as a good, must be exercised in accordance with the proper order which God has set.
In the case of Adam and Eve, they had been given to each other, indeed in a sense Eve was created to be in a marital relationship with Adam. Therefore the exercise of their sexuality was in accordance with God's will. In a sense they were already of one flesh. But for us the exercise of our sexuality is dangerous when we disobey God.
The Scriptures teach us that when we engage in sexual intimacy we become 'one flesh' with the other person. This seems to mean to me that we share some aspect of our being, and they share some aspect of their being. What if our relationship with this person breaks down? It seems to me that we lose something when the relationship breaks. Something is torn from us. We become damaged. And if we enter another relationship, and that breaks down? Well, we are torn again. Something is taken from us. And when we do enter into a lasting relationship we cannot help but find that some aspect of our relationship is affected by previous relationships.
There is no such thing as easy, cost-less sexual intimacy.
Here are a few thoughts about the costs...
i. There is a spiritual cost. To engage in sexual intimacy outside of marriage is sin. It does not mean that sexual intimacy is bad, but that we have chosen to serve ourselves rather than God. That is what sin is. Our own will rather than Gods'. Even if the sexual relationship is between a couple who plan to get married, and who do get married, to engage in sin is not a solid foundation for a Christian relationship.
If a man cannot keep himself pure for his prospective wife, or rather if he cannot help his prospective wife keep herself pure, then this is not a good beginning for a marriage. What other sins will he allow into this relationship? Instead of being a priest to his family, he will be in danger of leading his family into sin instead of into life.
ii. There is also the fact that engaging in sexual activity outside of the safeguards which God has provided leads to sexuality being over associated with physical pleasure, especially personal satisfaction. It becomes very difficult for sexuality to be considered in a chaste manner for such a person, even when and if they become married. When sexuality becomes too closely identified with pleasure it ceases to become a God ordained means of self-giving and genuine intimacy.
iii. Within the context of marriage it is possible for a person to be entirely self-giving, and to discover intimacy with another person. This is part of the meaning of becoming 'one flesh'. But outside of marriage, especially when sexual practice is casual, or when a person is not even living in a co-habiting relationship, such attempts at finding intimacy will fail, or will certainly be inadequate. We are consciously and sub-consciously concerned with questions like - does this person love me? is our relationship cooling? how can I keep this person liking me? Intimacy in such a context is damaging because rather than giving ourselves freely we gve ourselves to keep the other person, or to manipulate the other person into liking us. This distorts our ideas of love and intimacy and often causes lasting damage in any future marital relationship with someone else.
iv. Of course sexual practice outside of marriage also has health implications. There are all manner of sexually transmitted diseases which can be and are passed around communities of people who engage in sexual activity. Many of these have long lasting effects, and can even be deadly.
Let us not be fooled. Sex is not harmless. Sex is not just a physical act. It is a most powerful means of expressing and producing intimacy between a man and a woman who have committed themselves to a self-less life together. In any other context it is dangerous. To practice sexual acts outside of marriage both damages those who participate, and also damages any future marriage. In a sense, when you have sex with someone you become united to them in body and soul, and when you walk away some part of your soul is torn away from you. Do it enough times and you are diminished. You are less than the person God made you. And you are harming the person you engage in such casual sex with as well.
The teaching of the Church that we should remain chaste until marriage, and remain chaste within marriage, is for our salvation, and for the proper exercise of our sexuality. It is not an arbitrary rule, but one which serves to save us from harm. Sex is very powerful and so very dangerous. Within marriage it can be a source of great comfort and intimacy, outside of marriage it hardens our hearts, leads us away from God, teaches us to seek our own pleasure, and distorts our understanding of what sexuality and intimacy mean.
For the sake of our own salvation, and for the salvation of those other people with whom we are tempted to engage in 'casual sex', let us flee from this temptation and learn what it means to be chaste. The person who has not learned to find true and lasting intimacy with God before all others, will not be able to find intimacy in casual sex, and the person who has found such intimacy with God will not want to seek it in a counterfeit.
God bless us all
Father Peter
God created sex as a means to procreate and multiply. That's the only reason.
I disagree with this point - sex [within marriage] is not only for procreation, which I think Fr. Peter covered in his post.
DBassily, I would suggest reading the chapter titled 'Chastity' in the book "Practical Spirituality" by Heg. Fr. Athanasius Iskander (it can be found here: http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/content/books/spirituality.pdf starting on page 59). Fr. Athanasius tells us that sex within marriage is about giving, while sex outside of marriage is about taking. There's a good analogy that was mentioned in this chapter, and I'd like to share it with you: Pray for me,
Mansour89
It's aimed at high school age groups, but I personally thought it was a great talk (and I'm a little older than high school :P )
God bless,
Matthew
I just have a quick question. It seems to me that all of the teachings in the bible are pretty self explanitory as to why we should not do them. I understand not killing, or worshipping other Gods, or Stealing. However I do Not understand why Sex prior to marriage is a sin. I'm not considering it and I'm sure i will wait till I am Married, what i want to know however is this: what is the reasoning for waiting, sex seems harmless if its consentual so why is it a sin. what is the reasoning behind this??
Thank you.
You're free to do as you please in your life. But I'm just curious: when you get married, have you planned how you will tell your future husband and wife what you did sexually with other people before you met them? They would have to know. You are aware of that? Not just the number of sexual partners you've had, but what you've done. Have you planned on how you will say that?
The only thing youth plan on is that they are assuming and putting their hopes in the assumption that their future partners would have also had sexual experiences in the past. That's great - so tell me: which sexual position would you like your future husband or wife to have done with other people and tell you about?
What sexual experience would you like them to tell you about from their past?
Can you honestly look your future wife or husband in the eyes and tell her/him what you did sexually with others, and let them tell you.
It is remarkable that the most important decisions we make in life is at a time when we are the most ignorant and least patient period in our lives.
In terms of just plain common sense, if you can be friends and maintain self control before you get married to someone, then I'd recommend this. It is completely sinful to go around seducing someone as a way to start a relationship anyway.
I am not sure that I agree that it is necessary or wise for partners in a marriage to share every sexual experience they may have had prior to becoming engaged or married. Such disclosures are suitable for the FOC, but within a marriage would probably cause a great deal more harm than good. It is enough for a potential partner to be honest - well before marriage and at the point of engagement - and say, 'You should know that I have had a/some sexual partners before'. There is no need at all to be explicit.
They do not need to know details. Perhaps the number of partners, and whether or not full sexual intercourse took place. But no details.
What matters more, in my opinion, is whether or not the person has any sense of repentance for such actions in the past. If the person has repented then they are forgiven by God. We are all of us sinners. We are sinful people when we become engaged and sinful people when we are married. But a faithful Christian is always seeking to become more holy, more loving, more gentle, more obedient, more Christ-like.
There is certainly something special about two people who have not had sexual experience marrying each other. But it cannot be a universal experience, nor does it seem to me one that we can demand. If we have been forgiven by God and received absolution by our priest then we are restored to purity.
It is not good for us to look down on others because they have sinned (I do not mean that you are). Just as it is not good for us to sin in the first place. I understand that there is a wider Middle-Eastern culture around this issue, but it is not always Christian. What will happen, as has been posted here before, if thousands of Americans and British people become Christians in our Churches, a great many of them with sexual histories - who would dare to say that they are second-class because of it.
There seem to me to be two elements here. On the one hand we must preserve ourselves so that we can offer ourselves in purity to a prospective partner - but even more so that we may be blameless before God who knows our hearts. And on the other hand I do believe that we must be much more open-hearted towards those who fall into sexual sin. It is not the end of the world - IF THERE IS REPENTANCE. (I say this from the point of view of being generous to those who have sinned, not being easy going on ourselves).
Our Lord Himself is very strict with us. To look lustfully on a woman IS THE SAME AS HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH HER. I say it in capitals so that it is clear to us all. The sin is in the desire not in the act. By the time we act out our desire we are already committed to sin, we have already turned from God.
Let us examine our own hearts. When we tut-tut because a good boy is going out with a bad girl who slept with a boyfriend some years ago and has repented and tried to be a good servant ever since, let us remember every drawn out and lingering glance which condemns us as adulterers. We should be afraid to demand that our prospective partner tells us all about her boyfriend, because we know that there are not enough hours in the day to recall all of our own hidden and private sexual sins - how can consider ourselves pure just because we have not had a girlfriend.
Surely we should preserve ourselves, and be forgetful of the absolved sins of others. I know this is hard in many cultures, and it is perhaps a sign of spiritual maturity when it is possible. But I know for myself that I am a great sinner and have no right to judge anyone else, least of all my wife who has put up with me for 21 years. Is she a sinner as well? Of course. But the Lord is her judge, not me.
Should there be some disclosure before engagement? Yes, of course. It is reasonable to share that a person has had some sexual experiences. (But not to go into detail). It is reasonable to share that a person has been in prison, or bankrupt, or lost their job for various reasons. A partner needs to know the sort of person they might marry, and what we have done with our lives. But the details of our sins are best left to God and our FOCs. Otherwise we must be constantly telling our partners of our sins in a way that would be destructive of a relationship.
"I am sorry my dear, I have just sinned by thinking this dinner was awful". "I am sorry my dear, I have just sinned by staring at that attractive woman over there and wishing you looked like her".
Such honesty is for our FOCs not our partners. They are not directly involved and so are able to offer, hopefully, balanced and prayerful advice.
In terms of bringing a marriage date forward, that is a good idea in some situations and a bad idea in others. Within marriage, as much as outside of it, our sexuality is to be preserved in chastity. This means that marriage is not an excuse for any exercise of sexuality at any time. If someone is so burning with sexual desire that they feel the need to get married just to exercise that desire then their spiritual life is unbalanced. I would suggest that they have still lessons to be learned. One's partner is not a sexual object, but a sister/brother in Christ, with whom we are to grow in Christ together. If the main reason for getting married is to be able to have sex legitimately then I think I would have to say that such sexual practice would verge on the sinful even within marriage.
Nevertheless, once a couple have agreed to marry, and all other things in balance - job, somewhere to live, a degree of maturity - then there is not much good in a long engagement. I do agree with you that learning self-control before marriage, before engagement, and before dating, is the best option for all concerned. Even within marriage there is a need for self-control, and we are called to abstain from sexual relations at certain times. This is very hard if there is no self-control in the relationship.
God bless us all as we seek to perfect our relationships with others in love
Father Peter
Although this is a given, I just wanted to add that the surest way of receiving God's forgiveness is through the sacrament of confession.
CertifiedOrthodox,
I am not sure that I agree that it is necessary or wise for partners in a marriage to share every sexual experience they may have had prior to becoming engaged or married. Such disclosures are suitable for the FOC, but within a marriage would probably cause a great deal more harm than good.
Actually, you would have to now: according to the CoC - your partner needs to have medical tests for this sort of stuff. It would be highly irresponsible to have engaged in sexual activities and not tell your current future/husband. They would have a right to know.
But, yes.. that is precisely my point:
-----------------------------------
Let's say you do not say. The FoC suggests that if you have confessed it, then there's NO NEED to say, UNLESS your future husband/wife ask. So, if they ask, then you have to say. Do you see my point? Agreed... but, how can i say this delicately: if they "ask" , you'd have to be explicit.
Do you see what I mean.
I agree with you WHOLEHEARTEDLY (!!).. but, you are assuming that the other partner will NOT ask. They actually have a right to ask. That's MORE than enough details there. Oh! Definately. Well said. Agreed. - no comment No, its self righteousness to look down on others. But no matter how sinful we are, I'm sure we'd want to know the sexual experiences of our future significant other. I agree Fr. Peter. However, you are assuming here, in my opinion (please correct me if I'm wrong), that the person will not go into detail. Just the basic disclosure of information, as far as I'm concerned, will lead to more questions.
All I'm saying is, people jump into doing foolish things because they don't think of the day they will marry someone, and what that involves. Whether you go into detail, or keep it general, it is a very VERY awkward and hurtful scenario to be in. Egyptian girls get offended if they've found out that a guy even got engaged and broke up, what about more than that? Could you kindly explain that more? The last statement that "such sexual practice would verge on the sinful even more within marriage? What do you mean?
Do you mean that within marriage, their relationship is sinful because it started out sinful?
I meant personally, that it is quite hard to keep a sense of purity before marriage with your fiancé; and no matter what good intentions we have, it's never perfect. You'd need to live the perfect distance apart, and have the perfect friends ALWAYS available to you 24/7, you'd need to have the perfect house where you're chaparoned 24/7 to ensure that you are not leading each other into temptation...
I know several couples that did push the engagement day forward for this reason: that their lives were not perfect, and the situation of them being engaged caused a lot of frustration: financially, and sexually. I think each case is different. But, for me personally, I hate to compromise my Christian values in any way, and I find that even when we have good intentions, they are not enough. Even St Paul said something of that nature that he wished to desire to do something good, but could not.
And this is a humble way: to admit our weakness, even though we have good intentions. It is best. However, I think what you were suggesting was: it is dangerous to bring forward a marriage date and get married when you are only marrying to satisfy your sexual desires - and the compatibility factors are not yet resolved.
Yes - this is dangerous; but then, ask yourself this:
If they are struggling keeping their purity, is there a reason for that? Is it because they truly like each other so much? If that is the case, then they ought to not burn in passion and be responsible before God about their feelings and just get married. Amen
Father Peter
If someone said - 'I am desperate to eat that burger, I must have that burger, all of my days are spent just imagining eating it', then we would not normally say, 'Well it is not good to be so consumed with lust for a burger so go ahead and eat one now and eat one whenever you feel like you are consumed with desire for one'. We would diagnose a spiritual disease which needed help.
It seems to me that though it is better to not be consumed with desire for sexual activity outside of marriage, if a person is consumed with such a desire then there is a spiritual condition which needs addressing, because marriage is not for the satisfaction of personal desire.
And I do disagree with you about the need to answer all questions which a prospective partner might ask. A person does not have the right to know all the sins of another. That sort of exposure is reserved solely for God and one's FOC. A prospective partner should know that someone has been sexually active, and if they have engaged in full sexual activity, but they have no need to know all the details at all, and it should be enough for the prospective partner to say, 'You don't need to know and it would not be helpful to know'. No-one has the right to know all of our sins, only God and our FOC.
If a person asks, you do not need to tell, and should not tell. Why just that sin? A proud partner might very well be a much worse husband or wife than one who has fallen into a sexual sin in the past. Should the prospective partner describe each and every occasion when they fell into pride, describing how it happened and how they felt and what they said or thought? I would suggest not.
I would suggest that it is not appropriate to want to know all the sexual experiences of a potential partner and it rather verges on voyeurism. It is enough, more than enough, to know that the person has sinned in this way. No other details should be asked. How can we dare to judge a prospective partner and set ourselves up to examine their every sin when we ourselves are weighed down with so many. It might be common to want to know the details of a prospective partners sins, but it does not strike me as being healthy or entirely Christian. And in any case why the concentration on the sexual sins of the other, are repented sexual sins the worst or even the most important? Are pride, greed, gluttony, selfishness, laziness, anger etc not just as bad or worse in a prospective partner?
I am concerned that much of the interest in a prospective partners past failings is more to do with our own sense of pride, that we must marry a virgin, and that only a virgin is the proper subject of marriage, when this is not the case at all.
Father Peter
In regard to the question in the middle of your post, I meant that if a couple are mainly getting married so that they can have sex then they have the wrong attitude towards sex and it is liable to be conducted in a sinful manner even within their marriage.
If someone said - 'I am desperate to eat that burger, I must have that burger, all of my days are spent just imagining eating it', then we would not normally say, 'Well it is not good to be so consumed with lust for a burger so go ahead and eat one now and eat one whenever you feel like you are consumed with desire for one'. We would diagnose a spiritual disease which needed help.
It seems to me that though it is better to not be consumed with desire for sexual activity outside of marriage, if a person is consumed with such a desire then there is a spiritual condition which needs addressing, because marriage is not for the satisfaction of personal desire.
And I do disagree with you about the need to answer all questions which a prospective partner might ask. A person does not have the right to know all the sins of another. That sort of exposure is reserved solely for God and one's FOC. A prospective partner should know that someone has been sexually active, and if they have engaged in full sexual activity, but they have no need to know all the details at all, and it should be enough for the prospective partner to say, 'You don't need to know and it would not be helpful to know'. No-one has the right to know all of our sins, only God and our FOC.
If a person asks, you do not need to tell, and should not tell. Why just that sin? A proud partner might very well be a much worse husband or wife than one who has fallen into a sexual sin in the past. Should the prospective partner describe each and every occasion when they fell into pride, describing how it happened and how they felt and what they said or thought? I would suggest not.
I would suggest that it is not appropriate to want to know all the sexual experiences of a potential partner and it rather verges on voyeurism. It is enough, more than enough, to know that the person has sinned in this way. No other details should be asked. How can we dare to judge a prospective partner and set ourselves up to examine their every sin when we ourselves are weighed down with so many. It might be common to want to know the details of a prospective partners sins, but it does not strike me as being healthy or entirely Christian. And in any case why the concentration on the sexual sins of the other, are repented sexual sins the worst or even the most important? Are pride, greed, gluttony, selfishness, laziness, anger etc not just as bad or worse in a prospective partner?
I am concerned that much of the interest in a prospective partners past failings is more to do with our own sense of pride, that we must marry a virgin, and that only a virgin is the proper subject of marriage, when this is not the case at all.
Father Peter
Thanks Fr. Peter,
I liked your response. My opinion came from several particular priests who said that what you have confessed should not be repeated, but at the same time, the only one who should know about it is your future wife/husband ONLY in the event they ask.
Isn't that why the Church now insists that both parties do a medical exam before marriage?
"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify."
Where is your heart? where is your mind? is it looking for things that are helpful or beneficial? or is it looking for thinks that are earthly rather than heavenly? Just because I "can" do something, does not mean it is going to bring me closer to God. That's what we are fighting for! we are fighting against the devil to change our lives in order to do things that benefit us SPIRITUALLY. We have to constantly build ourselves up by asking God to work in us to change us for the better!
please pray for me and my weakness
And of course the encouragement to have a medical is not a dogmatic matter but a pastoral one. And therefore it has value only as it is applied in particular circumstances.
Neither my wife nor I had a medical examination. I married her 'for richer and poorer, in sickness and in health, till death us do part'.
Now if a potential partner has some life-threatening illness then it should be revealed before an engagement. And it is wise (although I do not apply this to myself I am afraid) to often visit the Doctor for a check up in all circumstances. But what is a medical check up before engagement designed to detect? I am not entirely sure. Is it to show that the potential partner is lying about something? Or to check that the potential partner will live for 70 years or more?
I know that I married my wife because I loved her, and have had to live with the consequences, as she has with me.
Father Peter
You cannot predict what a future spouse will find out nor ask to know.
Your logic is correct: is this edifying for me to find out? Yet I know very well that the Coptic Orthodox Church tells anyone to be as honest as possible with the spouses; and in such cases, they say "You should not say unless she/he asks you".
If Fr. Peter says that we should not tell UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES our sexual pasts/history etc to our future wives/husbands, then that is OK. I'm not bothered either way.
But would you agree that to save this from happening from the beginning, it is best not to even have a sexual past??? This is only my humble point of view.
Fr. Peter, please: if you have had sexual experiences in the past - you should have medical checks SO that your future / current husband wife KNOWS that they are accepting you with what?
No?? Am I missing something?
I don't really think there is any disagreement here.
I am certainly not issuing any absolute decrees, everyone has their own priests and spiritual fathers to ask advice from.
As I have said several times, it is appropriate for someone to tell a prospective partner that they have been sexually active, and it would be reasonable to have a medical checkup on that basis. But I see no helpful or beneficial reason at all to go into great detail about what exact sexual experiences a person might have had. The reason it would be sensible to have a medical checkup is so that the prospective partner can be aware of any sexually derived illnesses which might be present. But as I have also said before, that does not seem to me to be an absolute requirement, and is a pastoral matter.
Our Church might well counsel honesty, since it would not be helpful for a person to lie about having a sexual history. But the Church does not counsel being as honest as possible, in the sense of going into great detail about sexual experiences, since that would almost certainly damage a relationship, even if a prospective partner asks for great details. If we have been absolved then it is sometimes completely right for us to say I sinned in a sexual way, but only twice, or whatever, and I repented and was forgiven by God so that is all in the past and I do not even want to think about it. I only want to think of the future that you and I have together.
Father Peter
CertifiedOrthodox,
I don't really think there is any disagreement here.
I am certainly not issuing any absolute decrees, everyone has their own priests and spiritual fathers to ask advice from.
Fair enough. Hmm... I PERSONALLY would agree; but that is a personal decision everyone must make. Some people would find it completely disturbing if their future partner told them they had abstained from intercourse, but neglected to mention they had done other sexual things. Oh? I have no opinion on this matter. In fact, I find it quite confusing as I've heard things from the CoC suggesting that both parties need to have medical checkups as a requirement before marriage.
Has anyone else heard that? Perhaps I've mis understood it. Thanks for your words of wisdom.
I hope that the fact that someone has repented can make their future spouse forget or not ask about their past, but situations in life are unpredictable.
I do not think that having a medical examination has much to do with describing one's past sins.
And of course the encouragement to have a medical is not a dogmatic matter but a pastoral one. And therefore it has value only as it is applied in particular circumstances.
Neither my wife nor I had a medical examination. I married her 'for richer and poorer, in sickness and in health, till death us do part'.
Now if a potential partner has some life-threatening illness then it should be revealed before an engagement. And it is wise (although I do not apply this to myself I am afraid) to often visit the Doctor for a check up in all circumstances. But what is a medical check up before engagement designed to detect? I am not entirely sure. Is it to show that the potential partner is lying about something? Or to check that the potential partner will live for 70 years or more?
I know that I married my wife because I loved her, and have had to live with the consequences, as she has with me.
Father Peter
Sadly the majority of Egyptians do not marry for Love. They marry just for the sake of being married and starting a family and not because they have found a partner that they love and wish to spend the rest of their lives with. So there usually isn't a strong connection between the two. If one partner finds out that the other has a medical illness (even a treatable one), they suddenly become "damaged goods" and are replaced. If a genetic disease happens to run in someone's family then it becomes very difficult to find a spouse who will accept it. So for some Egyptians this medical exam is a pre-requisite for marriage. It's really sickening but thats the reality.