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When should women cover their heads in the Church?

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Hello,

Can someone tell me when a woman should cover her head in the Church? is it during the communion, or is it anytime when the Alter curtain is open?

What is the official answer?

How serious is it if she doesn't have it covered?

Also, for a man - what should he do/not do with respect to covering his head when the church?

Secondly, more importantly, as a deacon, do you have a role to play in correcting any of this?

For example, would you tell a man with a baseball cap on to take it off during the mass? Or is it your duty to tell a woman to cover her head during the communion? Is that the role of the deacon also, or should that be left to a priest?

Thanks

Comments

  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Women===>  all times

    Men should always remove their hats.  A hat is not the same as a veil.  The veil, for a woman, is to cover the crown (the locks of hair) as a respect for the King of Kings and His Crown, Majesty, and Authority.

    Coverings for the priest are not the same as a hat.  They are priestly crowns.  Prayer shawls (shamlas) are from the Judaic tradition when reading from the scriptures.  Yet, another tradition that has been lost in the Coptic Church relative to complacency and laziness.

    Deacons (the majority, not all) can't even control their bad habits, much less be an example to the congregation or be in a position to enforce any of the above.  Even if a deacon were conscientious, you cannot say anything to anyone in the church because everyone is either a genius or a saint and above any reproach.  Mostly the thug attitude weighs into the situation.  The priests do not want to say anything because they are afraid of being labeled as having lost the youth.  So we have "aaak".
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=8903.msg111461#msg111461 date=1267561749]
    Deacons (the majority, not all) can't even control their bad habits, much less be an example to the congregation or be in a position to enforce any of the above.  Even if a deacon were conscientious, you cannot say anything to anyone in the church because everyone is either a genius or a saint and above any reproach.  Mostly the thug attitude weighs into the situation.  The priests do not want to say anything because they are afraid of being labeled as having lost the youth.  So we have "aaak".


    can you please state what ought to be done and then tell us the reality based on your opinion?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    No caps, but a lot of deacons wear cap.  A cap is a sign of prominence as an equivalence to the female hair.  When entering a home, business, or church, you remove the cap because you are accepting and respecting the sovereignty at hand.

    I am not saying all deacons are ill-mannered, not by any means.  However the general trend is for disregard and disrespect, which spirals and breeds more.  If the deacon, with a myriad of ages, are hanging out in the back during Holy Communion, then the congregation follows their lead also.

    I think I throw in a little sarcasm, because I have seen the trend getting worse every year. 

    The deacons should be examples, and by their demeanor and example that carries a lot of weight.  The Sext Gospel of the Agbeya that we repeat calls us to example, "let your light so shine before all men that they may see your good works and Glorify Your Father in Heaven".  The deacons are called upon to marshal the people.

    I don't know whether I would say our people are getting more sensitive or that they are becoming intolerant.  In itself requires making a judgment, and I'm not sure I have enough interaction to plate out either.  The end result, unfortunately, is the same.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    The other thing  is there is a gap in authority because the priests cannot be every where.  They are not going to leave the Liturgy to see what is going on in the back of the church.

    My feeling has always been that the backbone, the base and foundation is in the diaconate.  No strong diaconate, service becomes weak, and chaotic.  I feel sorry for the priests.  They get blamed for everything.  I do not feel that enough deacons step up to the plate.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    I also feel there should be a mentoring system or in essence a "big brother" ("big deacon") type system.  An older cadet becomes oath bound to take care of mentor 3-5 younger ones, with instruction and example.  Instruction on so many things that would be channeled over years.  You don't make a deacon in one week/month/year.  A deacon should be an angelic presence in all regards:  conduct, appearance, chant, movements, etc.

    A deacon's chant meeting does not take care of these points.  One person instructing 20 is not practical or personal.  The big brother wil actually learn a lot also.  It is almost to take a page out of the monastic systems of discipleship.

    I do not mean to take it to the level of discipleship, that may be too strong of a term or example.

    I also know that havoc and chaos do not achieve anything, and they only degrade the atmosphere of the church, and more importantly, the character of the people in the church.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=8903.msg111467#msg111467 date=1267566164]
    No caps, but a lot of deacons wear cap.


    when they are wearing tonia?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    no. I meant at other times when entering the church.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Anba (Pope) Kyrillos VI used to make the deacons wear a shamla (reader's shawl) when chanting the psalms during the Holy Pascha at the Cathedral.
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    The little cap is for full deacons only, not anyone in the diaconate. Since full deacons are not really common at all(outside of the LA diocese) and Egypt you don't see it as often, its not that the cap/crown are dying out, there just aren't many deacons.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    I meant baseball and sports caps.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=8903.msg111484#msg111484 date=1267571365]
    Anba (Pope) Kyrillos VI used to make the deacons wear a shamla (reader's shawl) when chanting the psalms during the Holy Pascha at the Cathedral.


    yeah....they are also supposed to wear it during chanting the long expositions.
  • user00
    According to 1 Corinthians 11, Women should cover their heads when they pray. So during any church service basically, and not just for the partaking of the Holy Communion.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Well, this is a huge shame to see us in this situation.

    Many times, i've attended the mass, and the there was some one wearing a baseball cap during the mass. Its no child or anything.

    This statement about the shamlas is very interesting - is that something we are meant to observe also? So, we used to have deacons with locks in their heads and then we stopped?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Traditionally the prayer/reader's shawl (shamla) is for both priest and deacons whenever anything is recited from the scripture.  I would say that the priests observe its use 10-30% and the deacons 0.0000000000000000000000001%.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    To add, that was for specific ranks of deacons and not all. This observed by bishops most clear; they simply take there 'emma off when reading the gospel.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    For the bishops, the kalansona is essentially the quasi-equivalent of the shamla.

    Actually, any reader, from what I have as info is to wear the shamla (old traditions).
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=8903.msg111533#msg111533 date=1267652439]
    For the bishops, the kalansona is essentially the quasi-equivalent of the shamla.


    noo....the qolonsowa is considered their head....Anba Rafael said so answering a question concerning why the bishop doesn't take it off during matins.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Minagir,

    That's not what I mean.  The bishop removes his mitre (exclusive of the kolonsowa--being underneath) at certain times, and specifically at readings.  This is an exclusive feature from bearing his head at any time, as a concept (e.g. when he is outside of the church services).  The concept of the prayer shawl is a list of ideals and symbols, including:  the reminder of the cloud of the Lord's Presence that would cover the Meeting Tent as His Presence was manifest among the Israelites, it is also a sign of humility, also a sign of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, reverence, holiness, an acceptance of the tenets of the readings,  etc.

    The comment I made, and highlighted as:  "quasi-equivalent" puts the same perspective.  The Kolonsowa carries all of the above meanings, and others as they apertain to the monastic vows, and so on.  You are absolutely correct, they are not allowed to remove it because of their covenant and vows.

    I hope you get my gist.  I wasn't inferring any substitution aspect. 
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