The Coptic Orthodox Church and Zionism

Zoxsasi

I am very much interested in what the Church's (the Coptic Church) stance on Zionism is? Do we, as a Church, insist on zionism? Is it in our dogma that Jews should be given a state?

I am asking as I know that many Evangelical Christians insist and promote zionism and they say that it is according to their beliefs.

But as Coptic Christians, where do we stand when Jews say to us that: "This is the land that God gave us!". Where do we stand in terms of our faith?

My understanding was that, this was the promised land, and there were conditions for having it.

Why am I asking? Israel is building into Palestinian areas in East Jerusalem. You may be aware from this in news. Clinton, Obama and the EU all said to Benjamin Netanyahu that such building of settlements will stall any peace process. Benjamin Netanyahu then, a few days later, explains the reason for why they have not ceased building into Palestinian areas. He says "... God gave this land to our fathers... East Jerusalem IS Israeli land. It is our capital (all of it)".

Which is fine by me, except all his assertions are based from Judeo-Christian theology. As a Christian, as a Coptic Christian, what therefore is our position on such assertions?


Millions Christians in the USA and else where have a committed belief in the importance of standing with Israel and blessing the Jewish people. The verse most often referred to is Genesis 12:3 in which God tells Abraham “I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

But, how should we as Coptic Christians interpret this verse??

What is our position concerning Zionism? I always thought that our inheritance was spiritual, not physical.

DanieM

Pope Shenouda is very outspoken against the actions of the State of Israel against the Palestinians and is actively opposed to any normalisation of relations with Israel.

He is also against Copts visiting Israel apart from in unavoidable cases. A Holy Synod decree issued in 2006 urged Copts not to visit the Christian holy places in Israel, including Jerusalem. According to that decree, such Copts are automatically banned from receiving Holy Communion in the Coptic Orthodox Church.

This is pretty much all I know on this case, I also would like to know more if anyone has any information.

Zoxsasi

Thanks,
But theologically speaking what is our position as a Church. I'm not interested in the political side of this, nor is this an invitation for a debate. This question merely is addressing the theological differences between us and protestant CHurches who are Christian Zionists.

Are we, as a Coptic Church, Christian Zionists? Do we have to support (theologically) jews going back to Israel?

Thanks

jydeacon

Theologically, Jews have no rights to the land. God gave it to them, however many years ago. You won't find anything theologically speaking about rights to land. All of the fathers speak against them but in a spiritual state not necessarily about land. The land has become irrelevant to those who believe in Christ because He has come already. The jews deny Jesus as Christ, therefore the land is of great importance because He will still be coming and "reign" in Jerusalem. As christians it doesn't make a difference if they have land or not.

ilovesaintmark

No.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=9177.msg113951#msg113951 date=1272640763]
Theologically, Jews have no rights to the land. God gave it to them, however many years ago. You won't find anything theologically speaking about rights to land. All of the fathers speak against them but in a spiritual state not necessarily about land. The land has become irrelevant to those who believe in Christ because He has come already. The jews deny Jesus as Christ, therefore the land is of great importance because He will still be coming and "reign" in Jerusalem. As christians it doesn't make a difference if they have land or not.


Thanks JY,

Yes, I've said this also: it doesn't bother us either way - but - theologically speaking, we are therefore against zionism (theologically).

From where i am standing, many jews became Christian, and some remained unbelievers. So, those jews that became Christian, do they have a right to that land? You are right, they do not care. We should not care. Therefore, it seems only logical that if Jesus IS Christ, then we should not be supporting zionism because He didnt come to give us a piece of land. However, although the land is for the people of Jacob, we consider ourselves the "spiritual" people of Israel, not the biological.

However, should the Biological Descendents of Israel STILL have that land?? Does my question make any sense?

THanks gents

DanieM

Surely no.
most modern Jews are not descended from the Jews of the old Testament anyway. The jews that escaped Jerusalem after the destruction of the temple numbered a few hundred, whilst a few hundred years later Thousands of Khazars converted, including their royalty. Most modern Jews are descended from these Khazars from the Caspian Sea who converted to Judaism in the 7th and 8th Centuries, not from the Jews of Antiquity. They have no blood connection to the Jews of Jerusalem. it is a false claim politically and just a myth to give them the excuse.

As for jewish theology, the talmud states that Jews have no right to the Land of israel until the Third temple is built, when the Messiah (well, not Christ as they ignored him....but whoever they think will come) comes and rebuilds it.  verse 111 of the Talmud forbids war with gentiles in order to form a Jewish state, on the grounds that the destruction of the temple is a punishment from God, which would be given back by God when the time is right. 1 kings 21;17-24 show God also Punishing Ahab for claiming lands not given at the time by God.  There are many Jewish groups that oppose this, but all are naturally ignored for the secular political systems call them crazy, or even Anti-Semitic (ironically!).  :D
As for theological question of ownership of Land from a Christian perspective would of course be that the kingdom of Heaven is not an Earthly kingdom, and to feel connected to the earth is to be a lover of the world and not of God.

I hope this is more what you were looking for.

Zoxsasi

Thanks everyone,

You've all supported my ideas. What then of the Christian Zionists? I am sure you must all be familiar with them?!

Its quite funny that protestants criticise us over worshipping idols (icons), saints, Saint Mary, the Holy Communion, confessing to Priests etc, and yet they have their heads stuck so deep in the mud they cannot even see that their faith that supports zionism is completely ridiculous!!

I think that stuff such as dispensionalism, rapture etc are all dogmatic elements belonging to Protestant Churches where support for Zionism is a central element to their belief system. Please someone, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that way!

Thanks,

peterfarrington

I am sorry to have been rather busy all week and not to have had time to do much online.

There are some Protestant Churches in which Zionism is important, along with dispensationalism, the rapture etc.

But this is not the case in the older protestant Churches. The Anglicans and Lutherans are much more likely to be anti-Zionist. The Methodists are not Zionist, and most of the traditional Baptist churches I have known have not been Zionist. Even the charismatic groups I knew never made Zionism a particular feature of their life, indeed I can't remember it being mentioned.

When I grew up we were interested in Biblical prophecy, and we expected Israel to be restored, but I don't think we supported the state of Israel very much. There is a difference between a theological Zionism, and a political one. The state of Israel was created by secular and even atheist Jews rather than orthodox religious ones. So there is a difference between a protestant reading the scriptures and seeing that Israel will return to faith, and considering that the State of Israel is beyond criticism. These are different things.

Those protestants that are Zionist tend to be American, and American influenced, especially new churches and pentecostal churches. I have not met many real Christian Zionists in the UK ever, although of course I am aware of them. They do tend to be associated with prophetic and pentecostal groups not the older UK protestant churches.

I have difficulty supporting many/most of the actions of the State of Israel, and I have spent time with a Lutheran pastor from Bethlehem which was very enlightening - and disturbing. But I also have trouble supporting some/many actions of the various groups leading the Palestinians. But this is all separate, it seems to me, to reflecting with the Fathers on those passages of Scripture which speak of a restoration of Israel - I have not seen any passages from the Fathers quoted yet. (I know it is work to find them and I have been busy all week and haven't looked them up yet).

But even while we can say generally that we believe the promises of God have been and are being fulfilled in the Church, nevertheless there are passages which speak of a future, and eschatological restoration of Israel (in some sense). This is not the same as the creation of a state of Israel - indeed many ultra-Orthodox Jews reject the state of Israel as being man's work and not God's work.

So I suggest that we find the passages in the Gospels and rest of the NT and see what the Fathers have to say. I am popping out now, but if it interests someone then find the passages and quote them here which refer to Israel being restored or finding faith in some sense, and then we can turn to the Fathers to see how they interpret them.

God bless

Father Peter