this is from a book that we will soon publish (about the roumi explanation in kiahk vespers praises):
"Written by Father Sarkis who was known as Cantor Sarkis. He was from Old Cairo, Egypt. His father was Fr. Armia, the priest of Sts. Apakir and John Church in Old Cairo then He served in the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. Fr. Sarkis lived in the 15th century and was ordained a priest on the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem with his father. There, he met many Greeks and learned from them the Greek language. He constructed some hymns in Greek and Coptic like “[coptic]`Ari'alin[/coptic]” the Psali Watos for the three saintly children and the nine Greek parts that are chanted on the Saturday theotokia in the Kiahk vespers praise. The Greek parts are constructed to have his name spelled out on each first latter of the parts, “[coptic]CARKIC AKI[/coptic].” Fr. Sarkis departed around 1492 A.D.. May the blessing of his prayers be with us all, Amen.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9254.msg114608#msg114608 date=1274415960] this is from a book that we will soon publish (about the roumi explanation in kiahk vespers praises):
"Written by Father Sarkis who was known as Cantor Sarkis. He was from Old Cairo, Egypt. His father was Fr. Armia, the priest of Sts. Apakir and John Church in Old Cairo then He served in the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. Fr. Sarkis lived in the 15th century and was ordained a priest on the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem with his father. There, he met many Greeks and learned from them the Greek language. He constructed some hymns in Greek and Coptic like “[coptic]`Ari'alin[/coptic]” the Psali Watos for the three saintly children and the nine Greek parts that are chanted on the Saturday theotokia in the Kiahk vespers praise. The Greek parts are constructed to have his name spelled out on each first latter of the parts, “[coptic]CARKIC AKI[/coptic].” Fr. Sarkis departed around 1492 A.D.. May the blessing of his prayers be with us all, Amen.
Thanks Mina, Its good to know this actually. I was curious myself. I know he had something to do with the hymn.
I have a question though: notice some CHurches remove his name and say:
Ostavtos Pek-Vok Pi-Eptokhoss: Efoi Ari-Etf Efoi Nenokhos: Essagy nem nai Hoss Meto-khoss Hoss Erof Ari-Ho otchasf.
I don't really know....but i don't think it's a big deal....even I personnaly don't like it Also a mistake that many do is this: that HE may join all those.. and not that WE..
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9254.msg114632#msg114632 date=1274467373] I don't really know....but i don't think it's a big deal....even I personnaly don't like it Also a mistake that many do is this: that HE may join all those.. and not that WE..
Hi Mina,
Im not sure I get what you mean- Do you mean that you do not like replacing Sarkis with EFoi? I just want to be sure that Efoi means "we". Is that what you mean? You prefer to pray for everyone rather than for one person??
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9254.msg114633#msg114633 date=1274469110] [quote author=minagir link=topic=9254.msg114632#msg114632 date=1274467373] I don't really know....but i don't think it's a big deal....even I personnaly don't like it Also a mistake that many do is this: that HE may join all those.. and not that WE..
Hi Mina,
Im not sure I get what you mean- Do you mean that you do not like replacing Sarkis with EFoi? I just want to be sure that Efoi means "we". Is that what you mean? You prefer to pray for everyone rather than for one person??
there are 2 different things I am talking about. Both consider the authenticity of the original coptic text.
Zoxasi, To answer your concern, the word for "we" is [coptic]anon[/coptic]. However, grammatically, this would not necessarily make sense. If you want to mention more than one person, you would have to change up the words a little bit. The only obvious change to make is from [coptic]pekbwk[/coptic] (Your servant) to [coptic]nek`ebiaik[/coptic] (Your servants). I would ask ophadeece to translate the rest of the verse because my Coptic skills are much weaker than his. In Christ, aem581
Question: I thought "Sarkis" is the Armenian form of the name "Sergius" (Arabic: Sarga). How does this factor? Especially in light of the Armenian presence in the Basilica Church of the Holy Sepulchre (The Church of the Holy Resurrection). Does this qualify the person named as being of Armenian Ancestry? From my understanding, the Armenians are the one's using this form of the name.
I'm curious. Has this been explored? Is he identified specifically of Coptic ancestry and ecclesiastical jurisdiction?
Question: I thought "Sarkis" is the Armenian form of the name "Sergius" (Arabic: Sarga). How does this factor? Especially in light of the Armenian presence in the Basilica Church of the Holy Sepulchre (The Church of the Holy Resurrection). Does this qualify the person named as being of Armenian Ancestry? From my understanding, the Armenians are the one's using this form of the name.
I'm curious. Has this been explored? Is he identified specifically of Coptic ancestry and ecclesiastical jurisdiction?
I never heard about this....and i don't think it makes sense because if that was so, he would of been speaking (and writing) in Armenian which, according to what i know, is their liturgical language. But Sarkis here writes in Coptic and Greek.
I'm purely speculating and asking out loud, relative to the name "Sarkis". There were many Armenians that were influential in the Coptic Church, who contributed in terms of iconography and writings. Actually most of the oldest Coptic Icons that survive were written by Armenians.
In terms of Armenians in the Holy City, they were well versed in Greek, just as many Coptics were well versed in Greek throughout time.
Many of the Coptic Fathers, their writings survived in Greek.
I am by no means saying that he [Sarkis] is definitively Armenian. I'm just pondering or asking if there is any geneology to place him as of Coptic ancestry or Armenian ancestry? In other words, do you have a more complete biography or reference. Having heard that chant, and chanted it so many times, I have been curious. Thanks.
Nope. the reference i found in the new Kiahk Psalmody of deer el-sourian and itself was taken from: Meggalet el-karma el-gadida, 2005, vol. 242
some other refernces in other books say that he lived in the 18th century...that is only based on the general concept that the roumi and the mo'aqqab parts were composed around that time and not before. but again, they don't include explicit info as what i found the Kiahk psalmody in the ref above.
Comments
"Written by Father Sarkis who was known as Cantor Sarkis. He was from Old Cairo, Egypt. His father was Fr. Armia, the priest of Sts. Apakir and John Church in Old Cairo then He served in the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. Fr. Sarkis lived in the 15th century and was ordained a priest on the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem with his father. There, he met many Greeks and learned from them the Greek language. He constructed some hymns in Greek and Coptic like “[coptic]`Ari'alin[/coptic]” the Psali Watos for the three saintly children and the nine Greek parts that are chanted on the Saturday theotokia in the Kiahk vespers praise. The Greek parts are constructed to have his name spelled out on each first latter of the parts, “[coptic]CARKIC AKI[/coptic].” Fr. Sarkis departed around 1492 A.D.. May the blessing of his prayers be with us all, Amen.
this is from a book that we will soon publish (about the roumi explanation in kiahk vespers praises):
"Written by Father Sarkis who was known as Cantor Sarkis. He was from Old Cairo, Egypt. His father was Fr. Armia, the priest of Sts. Apakir and John Church in Old Cairo then He served in the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. Fr. Sarkis lived in the 15th century and was ordained a priest on the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem with his father. There, he met many Greeks and learned from them the Greek language. He constructed some hymns in Greek and Coptic like “[coptic]`Ari'alin[/coptic]” the Psali Watos for the three saintly children and the nine Greek parts that are chanted on the Saturday theotokia in the Kiahk vespers praise. The Greek parts are constructed to have his name spelled out on each first latter of the parts, “[coptic]CARKIC AKI[/coptic].” Fr. Sarkis departed around 1492 A.D.. May the blessing of his prayers be with us all, Amen.
Thanks Mina,
Its good to know this actually. I was curious myself. I know he had something to do with the hymn.
I have a question though: notice some CHurches remove his name and say:
Ostavtos Pek-Vok Pi-Eptokhoss:
Efoi Ari-Etf Efoi Nenokhos:
Essagy nem nai Hoss Meto-khoss
Hoss Erof Ari-Ho otchasf.
WHat does that mean?
Also a mistake that many do is this:
that HE may join all those..
and not that WE..
I don't really know....but i don't think it's a big deal....even I personnaly don't like it
Also a mistake that many do is this:
that HE may join all those..
and not that WE..
Hi Mina,
Im not sure I get what you mean- Do you mean that you do not like replacing Sarkis with EFoi? I just want to be sure that Efoi means "we". Is that what you mean?
You prefer to pray for everyone rather than for one person??
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9254.msg114632#msg114632 date=1274467373]
I don't really know....but i don't think it's a big deal....even I personnaly don't like it
Also a mistake that many do is this:
that HE may join all those..
and not that WE..
Hi Mina,
Im not sure I get what you mean- Do you mean that you do not like replacing Sarkis with EFoi? I just want to be sure that Efoi means "we". Is that what you mean?
You prefer to pray for everyone rather than for one person??
there are 2 different things I am talking about. Both consider the authenticity of the original coptic text.
To answer your concern, the word for "we" is [coptic]anon[/coptic]. However, grammatically, this would not necessarily make sense. If you want to mention more than one person, you would have to change up the words a little bit. The only obvious change to make is from [coptic]pekbwk[/coptic] (Your servant) to [coptic]nek`ebiaik[/coptic] (Your servants). I would ask ophadeece to translate the rest of the verse because my Coptic skills are much weaker than his.
In Christ,
aem581
Question: I thought "Sarkis" is the Armenian form of the name "Sergius" (Arabic: Sarga). How does this factor? Especially in light of the Armenian presence in the Basilica Church of the Holy Sepulchre (The Church of the Holy Resurrection). Does this qualify the person named as being of Armenian Ancestry? From my understanding, the Armenians are the one's using this form of the name.
I'm curious. Has this been explored? Is he identified specifically of Coptic ancestry and ecclesiastical jurisdiction?
Minagir,
Question: I thought "Sarkis" is the Armenian form of the name "Sergius" (Arabic: Sarga). How does this factor? Especially in light of the Armenian presence in the Basilica Church of the Holy Sepulchre (The Church of the Holy Resurrection). Does this qualify the person named as being of Armenian Ancestry? From my understanding, the Armenians are the one's using this form of the name.
I'm curious. Has this been explored? Is he identified specifically of Coptic ancestry and ecclesiastical jurisdiction?
I never heard about this....and i don't think it makes sense because if that was so, he would of been speaking (and writing) in Armenian which, according to what i know, is their liturgical language. But Sarkis here writes in Coptic and Greek.
I'm purely speculating and asking out loud, relative to the name "Sarkis". There were many Armenians that were influential in the Coptic Church, who contributed in terms of iconography and writings. Actually most of the oldest Coptic Icons that survive were written by Armenians.
In terms of Armenians in the Holy City, they were well versed in Greek, just as many Coptics were well versed in Greek throughout time.
Many of the Coptic Fathers, their writings survived in Greek.
I am by no means saying that he [Sarkis] is definitively Armenian. I'm just pondering or asking if there is any geneology to place him as of Coptic ancestry or Armenian ancestry? In other words, do you have a more complete biography or reference. Having heard that chant, and chanted it so many times, I have been curious. Thanks.
the reference i found in the new Kiahk Psalmody of deer el-sourian and itself was taken from: Meggalet el-karma el-gadida, 2005, vol. 242
some other refernces in other books say that he lived in the 18th century...that is only based on the general concept that the roumi and the mo'aqqab parts were composed around that time and not before. but again, they don't include explicit info as what i found the Kiahk psalmody in the ref above.
Thanks for the info.