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Sunday School Assistance
Hi,
I was having a brainstorming session with this monk concerning what to do with children who are around 5 to 7 years old.
They seem to be the ones causing the most noise and disruption in the Church.
I suggested that we make them into a Choir and get them involved in the Church. Some lady interjected and said "Im an expert in Sunday School, and I know how Children behave. Children cannot concentrate for more than 10 mins. More than 10 mins, they need to play with something".
I said to her " Well, OK.. but we need a solution for this problem".
At 7 years, I wasn't running around the church causing disruption. I admit, i found it hard to concentrate on the mass, so what our Church did was send us downstairs for hymn lessons during part of the mass. Now, I don't know if that was a good idea.
But if kids cannot concentrate during the entire mass, what should they do? Any ideas?
Should we ask them to sit down quietly and read a book?
Should we tell them to go and play outside or in the Church gardens if they feel a bit restless??
What can we do?
I was having a brainstorming session with this monk concerning what to do with children who are around 5 to 7 years old.
They seem to be the ones causing the most noise and disruption in the Church.
I suggested that we make them into a Choir and get them involved in the Church. Some lady interjected and said "Im an expert in Sunday School, and I know how Children behave. Children cannot concentrate for more than 10 mins. More than 10 mins, they need to play with something".
I said to her " Well, OK.. but we need a solution for this problem".
At 7 years, I wasn't running around the church causing disruption. I admit, i found it hard to concentrate on the mass, so what our Church did was send us downstairs for hymn lessons during part of the mass. Now, I don't know if that was a good idea.
But if kids cannot concentrate during the entire mass, what should they do? Any ideas?
Should we ask them to sit down quietly and read a book?
Should we tell them to go and play outside or in the Church gardens if they feel a bit restless??
What can we do?
Comments
listen... next time you go to church, watch the children, and see what they are doing... see what the "disruptive" children are doing, and see what the quite kids are doing.
as I wish to speak about the word "expert" in sunday school... but I will leave that for another time... the choir will not make a difference, if boys who are this age and are deacons are causing a ruckus... and the "expert" is right, kids are taught to not have their attention on something for more than ten minutes... HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea... when kids are outside of the church when they are young they will stay outside of the church when they are old... even if its for a coptic class! WHILE THE SERVICE OF THE LITURGY IS BEING SERVED, THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY OTHER FORM OF SERVICE GOING ON!!! (except if you have more than one liturgy, and the people who are being served with the different service have attended a Liturgy)
now I will try to answer your question... and you will see this in your analysis I asked you should do! 1. have a person of authority stay with them, if it's their parents, or if they respect you, then you...
2. kids pay attention for no more than 10-15 minutes... so every 5-7 minutes go to them, let them show you where are we in the book, and/or have them sit for 2 -5 minutes. all of these will make them think or re-focus
3. dont have all of the children sit together in a big portion... except if you have enough people to help you (about 1 to every 5 kids)
(there is much more... but these are the main basic ones)
no... what you teach a child, you're teaching an adult! have them follow along with the liturgy book... show them where we are, have them follow along word for word... if you don't show them the importance of a liturgy when they are children, as adults they will have a hard not comprehending or understanding the importance of the liturgy.
NO! NO! NO!... keep them inside the church... and as long as you do what you can, and you pray for them, God will grace you and them with peace... but please get the parents involved, they will not spit out babies and leave them to do whatever they please!
neshkor Allah... akhadna el baraka!
I agree totally, it is a horrible idea having kids go down to a basement during the mass and leave the service. This is wrong. But it wasn't for the mass, it was for the sermon only.
I still think it is wrong. Someone should have translated the sermon, not taken us away so that we are doing something different.
But the worst thing is this - that wasn't when we were 7, it was when we were a bit older.
Anyway, I didnt go with the other kids. My friends and I were all deacons and what kept us occupied during the mass was the hymns. Obviously the vespers was the most interesting part of the day because we could concentrate on all of it because we knew literally all of it.
We need to find something for these kids SuperWham ? But what?
They learned that from the Episcopalian Church in the United States, as well as other non-helpful items with a destructive long term aspect.
I would also add that the major mistake that the Armenian Church has made is by having the kids go to Sunday School during the Liturgy (for convenience). The children never get used to the Liturgy, become alienated, leave the Church, and then the Church wonders how to get them back.
They learned that from the Episcopalian Church in the United States, as well as other non-helpful items with a destructive long term aspect.
Gosh, that's quite extreme. This is not good.
I didn't mean to give you this impression. The deacons would take the kids downstairs and teach them hymns during the sermon. I am dead against this.
But is it true that kid's only have a concentration for 10 mins?
Look, I say their parents should be called in whenever they make a noise - PERIOD.
So what if they lose concentration? Should they be disruptive??
And sending them to a baby's room is worse. They will think that this room is where they can be disruptive with other disruptive kids. Gosh!!
The aim is for them to grow in respect for the Church - and if we do not do this properly, they will end up growing in disrespect for the Church (which they are already), and we'd have been the cause of this - unwittingly.
It is certainly not all children who have this problem. I have had children of 2-4 be relatively quiet throughout the liturgy, and when they reach 7 they have become servers, if boys, and have been given lots to do.
As a priest I would much rather a family came relatively late to Church (not through laziness of course, but if they have a child who finds it very hard to concentrate or be still) and then were all able to engage to some degree, rather than that they came very early and spent the whole liturgy unable to concentrate and causing disruption to others. I never expect silence in any case. But quality is better than quantity - in this case. The priest should also pray for all the children and especially those who find quietness difficult.
For others there seems to be less excuse not to be in Church early.
Father Peter
Pray for me
We cannot expect kids to concentrate 2 hours on the mass, and at the same time, we need to make them respect the Church, by not taking it lightly and coming late.
Let's see.
If the kids are > 5 years of age, they should be given some kind of duty to assist in the Church that will keep them occupied, yet focused and respectful of the mass. What can you give them?
The fact that when we were young we acted completely differently is true, but things have unfortunately changed and since we are not completely separated from society around us our children have changed as well. Personally I think many of the problems we face are down to the nature of the highly processed food we eat.
In my own congregation I have rarely had problem children running amok. Many families have come at the beginning of the liturgy and their children have been no more than a little bit fidgety, or have been taken our briefly if they are very young.
But if a child really does have an attention problem, and it is a recognised conditio, then we have to deal with the problem not recall how well behaved we were. As a young boy I was always at my father's side in very many long and (boring for a child) evangelical services. But there are children who cannot, just cannot, sit quietly even when their parents wish they would. I would rather the family came late and were all able to benefit from some of the service, than arrived earlier and were unable to benefit from any of it.
If it is a discipline problem then perhaps the local church could hold proper parenting classes. Or could arrange for older helpers to share out the problem children. But I do believe that there is a physiological problem with this present generation of children which is much more than just lacking discipline and which is caused by the toxic context in which our children are conceived, born and brought up. There is no food in the supermarket which has not been chemically adjusted in some way. Our water supplies are treated with chemicals. The chemicals in the packing of our food is leaching into what we eat.
Most families I know with a problem young child are not lacking discipline, they are often lacking support, and/or they have a child with a psychological condition.
Do feel free to disagree with me, gently. This is not a dogmatic issue, and not one I deal with regularly as I do not have lots of small children in my congregation, and those I have had are usually well behaved. I do not believe that bad behaviour should be excused in Church, but that, as I said, it is better, as far as I can see, for a family to pray together with some degree of harmony for a shorter time, which hopefully increases, than to insist that the family must come for the whole liturgy or nothing, and not be able to attend to any prayer at all.
How old are you? I am 47. I was brought up in another world.
Father Peter
I don't think the children who can concentrate are the issue.
It is the one's who can't, and who are too young to be servants.
I would much rather they remembered Church as a place of welcome than a place they dreaded. So sometimes (I am using the word sometimes) I do think that less is more.
It would be very interesting to have some patristic input on the presence of children in Church.
Father Peter
What Geomike has said is exactly how most of us where raised in church(at least my generation) I'm only 21. lol I'm not saying I would ever be able to raise a child any better than they are being raised, but I see a sort of let the kid be a kid sort of thing and then they end up doing whatever they want. And then when someone such as myself tries to get the kids focused or I tell them to behave themselves in church, I either get completely disregarded or the usual answer is, my daddy/mommy/whoever said i can do what i want. At least from my experience its not because the kids are simply fidgety kids, its a lack of respect for authority and lack of discipline.
Father Peter,
What Geomike has said is exactly how most of us where raised in church(at least my generation) I'm only 21. lol I'm not saying I would ever be able to raise a child any better than they are being raised, but I see a sort of let the kid be a kid sort of thing and then they end up doing whatever they want. And then when someone such as myself tries to get the kids focused or I tell them to behave themselves in church, I either get completely disregarded or the usual answer is, my daddy/mommy/whoever said i can do what i want. At least from my experience its not because the kids are simply fidgety kids, its a lack of respect for authority and lack of discipline.
Gentlemen,
Can we focus on the issue here?
Let's be creative:
What duty / service / function can we give kids during the mass?
I am a deacon, and I even find it hard to concentrate at EVERY single second in the mass, especially in Coptic and I have no liturgy book with me.
To answer Zoxasi's question:
In Sunday school or something you can teach them a little bit about the liturgy like abouna does this and abouna does that and the deacon goes around the altar, So that they will be eager and waiting until it happens in church and they will remain quiet and patient. You can also set up a points system where if you come to church you will get this amount of points and if you are quiet you get this amount of points. If they get like these many points they earn a reward. You can set up something like that, just remember to stop it when they grow a little because they will just come to church for points. Also, if you teach them some of the hymns of the church they will want to come to church on their own.
We need to find something for these kids SuperWham ? But what?
hello, my name is Bishoy (aka on tasbeha.org, SuperMAN✞(BAM)... BAM is fine, Superman is fine... or Bishoy is fine... I'm not SuperWHAM, or superham, just to clarify things ;))
second, I already mentioned how I have treated this problem before, and it worked for me... but here is what I said, Again!
[quote author=✞SuperMAN✞(BAM)✞ link=topic=9449.msg116418#msg116418 date=1279021882]
1. have a person of authority stay with them, if it's their parents, or if they respect you, then you...
2. kids pay attention for no more than 10-15 minutes... so every 5-7 minutes go to them, let them show you where are we in the book, and/or have them sit for 2 -5 minutes. all of these will make them think or re-focus
3. dont have all of the children sit together in a big portion... except if you have enough people to help you (about 1 to every 5 kids)
(there is much more... but these are the main basic ones)
neshkor Allah... akhadna el baraka!
I was just adding to what you said.
They do not speak English.
They do not now the difference from a Wham or A BAM.
BTW, I made it to the first page and climbing! I do not think I will ever reach minagir, but if a computer virus hits his computer, I have a shot.
I think the Admins need to create a separate category for him: SuperHero.
the first point is that i think it IS everyone's problem.
if u r new to the church, u can just smile at the kids so they know they r included or give them a wave, but once u know the kids (and parents) quite well and the kid sitting near u is noisy, u can ask the parent if they mind u taking the kid round the church to show them 1 or 2 icons and point things out in the mass. most parents i know (i am not one but i have studied lots about child developement and have helped in sunday school) are very grateful for any help.
it's true to say that in most countries, kids learn not to pay attention, so u can expect it takes some time to teach them otherwise. giving them a Christian book (please, not a book about dinosaurs, cars etc, take the opportunity to show them it's about God!) to read or colour in or a small toy whose job is to 'listen' with them is a good idea for when their attention wanders. if they can read, u could be really organised and put a marker in the Bible for the day's gospel reading and ask them to read 1 or 2 verses when they are fidgeting, so by the end they read the whole gospel for themselves.
in the church i'm moving back to soon, the smaller kids often have a short talk during the sermon given by a (sub)deacon in an annex from where they can see into church, so are not cut off. they have a choice whether to go there (if they find the sermon a bit long) or staying in the main service, listening in to the translation if necessary. kids often come a bit late (eg before the reading of the gospel) and i think it's absolutely fine if a family with kids has to come a bit late, certainly better than not coming at all, although they should try to come earlier as the kids get older.
it's great to get kids to serve. in the church i mentioned there are 2 small boys (5 or less) who love to come right at the beginning and help with serving. every child is different and so should be treated differently. the girls in this church arrange the money collection and bring it to the deacons and they also are responsible for arranging the water after Holy Communion. girls can also take part in a choir, and the older girls can give out books or be in charge of the screen showing the words of the liturgy.
or course, teaching the children about the liturgy is the job of every parent, sunday school teacher and regular church member. how many of u chat to the children after church? how many of their names do u know? what r their interests? in one church i met a 5 yr old boy who didn't know the reason for kneeling in prayer (metania)! it was Good Friday, and no-one had explained about the 400 prostrations and about repentance. i really think by this age a child is perfectly able to understand the basics of us 'saying sorry' to God and God helping us to be 'good'. u can ask the child, 'look, everyone is kneeling down, do u know why we do this?'
u can give kids a job at the start of the service, like counting the number of times we say the Lord's prayer, working out at what times people make the sign of the cross or sit down or stand up, and then explain these points to them later.
to make friends with the kids, simply hang out with them after mass and either join in their games, once they recognise u (and their parents know who u are) or involve them in something they will find interesting (giving out cakes, tidying up etc). always answer their questions, however silly they seem, and also be clear about what is really not allowed (eg, 'sorry u can't eat in the church area because we worship God here, so we don't want to make a mess, why don't u go and see auntie mary, she has some nice cakes')
these are just a few ideas, i'm sure u can come up with lots more, maybe ask the kids in yr church for some, or ask the older kids/teens what would have helped them concentrate in church when they were younger. i think that generally (i have only seen in uk what happens), coptic kids concentrate very well compared to lots of others i have seen, and we should encourage them to continue and be their friends and guide them in the right path.
may God give us wisdom.
This is surely a matter for the priest to address with the parents in the first place. Parent classes, discussion of acceptable behaviour in the Church, even raising the issue in confession. If the priest does not deal with it then others will spend all their energies trying to keep children amused instead of the real issue being dealt with.
Thankfully I have not had such parents or children in my congregation yet.
Father Peter
LOL... lets create a virus, that will lessen his post count every time he posts! and if they make a superhero title, you'll find me posting left and right to make sure I get that title here too! lol
Ah. It wasn't clear to me at all that we were talking about spoiled children and un-interested parents.
This is surely a matter for the priest to address with the parents in the first place. Parent classes, discussion of acceptable behaviour in the Church, even raising the issue in confession. If the priest does not deal with it then others will spend all their energies trying to keep children amused instead of the real issue being dealt with.
Thankfully I have not had such parents or children in my congregation yet.
Father Peter
God must love you a lot ;D
I actually made some virus that restricts you from accessing the internet. It's funny but it's messed up. I deleted it because i was scared that i might infect somebody. LOL
so remind me never to accept any files from you!
Father Peter