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Killing Non Virgins
Hi,
In the Bible, God tells the people of Israel the following:
(Numbers 31:17-18) - "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."
So how exactly were the men meant to know who was a virgin or not? Maybe the women lied just to be freed?
Secondly, why is God asking the people of Israel to kill even the little children? What about those women who were mothers - why should they be killed? Why would God who put the commandment :"Thou Shalt not Kill" tell His people to go and kill?
OK.. this is a story from the case of the Midianites - but why did God tell His people to kill them?? Isn't killing just as bad as idolatory?? Isn't a sin a sin?
Surely it is a sin to have killed someone because they have sinned.
This issue is disturbing a lot of non Christians and atheists.
Please PLEASE only those with correct responses respond - that way this thread can be used as a reference to answer and clarify this issue.
Thanks
In the Bible, God tells the people of Israel the following:
(Numbers 31:17-18) - "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."
So how exactly were the men meant to know who was a virgin or not? Maybe the women lied just to be freed?
Secondly, why is God asking the people of Israel to kill even the little children? What about those women who were mothers - why should they be killed? Why would God who put the commandment :"Thou Shalt not Kill" tell His people to go and kill?
OK.. this is a story from the case of the Midianites - but why did God tell His people to kill them?? Isn't killing just as bad as idolatory?? Isn't a sin a sin?
Surely it is a sin to have killed someone because they have sinned.
This issue is disturbing a lot of non Christians and atheists.
Please PLEASE only those with correct responses respond - that way this thread can be used as a reference to answer and clarify this issue.
Thanks
Comments
The Midionites were supposedly descendants of the "Giants" spoken of in Genesis 6, and in verse 4 we read "Now there were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward" That is the part people seem to skip over, how exactly did these "Giants" survive the flood? Not really sure but I have a few theories, for now let us stay on topic. Why would God want these people killed? The giants in Gen. 6, who were born from the "bene ha elohim" or Sons of God, wrought havoc upon the earth and helped usher in an age of utter chaos and ungodliness, causing God to destroy all flesh with a flood. Now you may not believe in the book of Enoch but as a theory these giants were supposedly offspring from a union between angels and men, to which there is much scriptural evidence for. This is one of the worst things that could be done by angels or human, it is the worst of all sexual perversions. These midionites were descendants from them, and assuming they were hybridized, this is exactly why God would want them destroyed.
Assuming they are not, they were still a scourge upon the earth. Living as an ungodly people, killing, raping, pillaging, and every other possible ungodly thing. To me it is more humane to kill off even the babies for the simple reason they would grow up without family. Or grow up and realize what the israelites had done an rebel against them. The virgins were most likely captives of other tribes for their ceremonial worship of pagan Gods to which they would probably be sacrificed. Either way, no matter where you believe they are from as humans God was doing a work of justice while testing his people's loyalty. We have to remember that back in that time all people understood was force, so when they exterminated these people, the israelites became well known for defeating a great army. Which also told people that their God was very strong.
In that time when you would conquer a people, they viewed the conquering tribe as having superior gods, and would therefore worship them as superior gods. This is the reason for so much bloodshed. You couldnt exactly go door to door spreading the word of YHWH. It had to be done within the context of the time, people could not understand the new covenant we have today, back then. Just as we have a hard time understanding the violence and bloodshed of that time.
Sorry for rambling, hopefully this helps.
Im sorry - this doesn't make sense, even spiritually speaking.
Let's say some girl seduces me, and I sin with her. So, is it logical that I kill her so she doesn't go around seducing other people?
Is this God's intention Ioannes?
Why DID God command that the Israelites kill:
* Man
* Woman
* Child
(I think even cattle!!)
* And yet to take only for themselves the other virgins.
You make a parallel between some Giant People and the Midianites, but I cannot find proof of this association in any book.
* Also, if God is telling the Israeli men to take unto themselves the VIRGIN women from the Midianites, how would they know if she's a virgin or not?? Why destroy the cattle, and not the virgin women? Why kill the children for? Surely if there was a girl amongst the children, then they'd have grown up to be virgin women?? Why kill them for??
What's going on?!
The Old Testament is a record of God's revelation of himself to man over time. Man didn't understand for much of the time, and only partially understood God's nature at the best of times.
All of us deserve and are experiencing death. It should not come as a surprise that God sometimes draws that judgement down on mankind. Physical death is not man's biggest problem.
Why did God send the flood?
The Hebrew for 'virgin' is also the same as 'young woman'.
The Old Testament is a record of God's revelation of himself to man over time. Man didn't understand for much of the time, and only partially understood God's nature at the best of times.
All of us deserve and are experiencing death. It should not come as a surprise that God sometimes draws that judgement down on mankind. Physical death is not man's biggest problem.
Why did God send the flood?
Thank you Father Peter,
Yes, God sent down the flood to destroy the creation because, for the most part, they were all living in sin.
However, what I fail to understand is that He gave us the commandment "Thou shalt not kill"; yet in this situation, He orders them to kill even the children. What did the Children do wrong to deserve death?
Why spare the young women and kill the children?
these are few points:
- I fully agree with the last 2 paragraphs by Ioannes (well, except 'more humane to kill off even the babies' part) and Father Peter's reply;
- I read that the Midianites mocked and defied God after witnessing the Israelites escape from Egypt and the crossing of the Red Sea with God's protection. They were planning to exterminate the Israelites after seeing the end of the Pharaoh's much feared army so God Almighty swore He will punish them and make of them an unforgotten example to all;
- did God spare Sodom and Gomorrah's children? The Midianites' children were dedicated to pagan gods hence to the devil. During their youth their parents sent many of them to be burnt alive in a huge furnace to please the devil while under a hypnotic influence of pagan priests and covering their cries with deafening drum sounds - so were the stock and all what is Midianite dedicated to evil gods;
- all the adult Midianite people were carriers of sexually transmittable diseases, except some untouched young women (virgins) who were kept aside for special pagan occasions or ceremonies;
- it is understood that many of the very young children were thus spared a bad future;
- an estimate of the Midianites warriors were 100.000 while the Israelites were about 30.000;
Hope I helped explaining this.
GBU
The Midionites were supposedly descendants of the "Giants" spoken of in Genesis 6, and in verse 4 we read "Now there were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward" That is the part people seem to skip over, how exactly did these "Giants" survive the flood? Not really sure but I have a few theories, for now let us stay on topic. Why would God want these people killed? The giants in Gen. 6, who were born from the "bene ha elohim" or Sons of God, wrought havoc upon the earth and helped usher in an age of utter chaos and ungodliness, causing God to destroy all flesh with a flood. Now you may not believe in the book of Enoch but as a theory these giants were supposedly offspring from a union between angels and men, to which there is much scriptural evidence for. This is one of the worst things that could be done by angels or human, it is the worst of all sexual perversions. These midionites were descendants from them, and assuming they were hybridized, this is exactly why God would want them destroyed.
This raised so many questions in my head, and I don't even know where to start. I guess it would have to be with reading the book of Enoch.
And I'm just as curious as Zoxsasi as to why God would have the Israelites do this after giving them a commandment not to kill, rather than doing it himself. The Israelites, killing these ungodly people, would become murderers. Wouldn't this drive them closer to savagery than to godliness? Doesn't this picture seem opposite to the peace and order we believe God wants in the world?
When our British and Commonwealth troops stood alone in defending the West against the evils of Nazism it was not murder when they killed German soldiers.
Father Peter
No other generation has ever lived as we try to. Every other generation has always had to live with the constant reality and presence of death.
Over 5% of the British population were killed or wounded in the First World War for instance. About 10% of the male population. Every family was touched. All of those men who served had faced death, and seen it up close. But they were willing to sacrifice their lives for their families, for their country, and for good against evil. I think we have rather lost the sense of what it means to face almost certain death for the sake of others.
To an extent I am sure that the Israelites, heavily outnumbered by an evil force which wished to annihiliate them, saw it in the same way. And looking back they saw that God must have been with them and used them for his purposes, otherwise they would have been overwhelmed.
In both the First and Second World Wars there was a strong sense in Britain that the conflict was against evil, there were days of prayer asking for God's blessing and protection.
Father Peter
Hopefully that helped.
I still cannot fathom how killing their cattle is right, and yet they are allowed to keep their virgin women.
OK - so, we had war hereos that died for a good cause, against Nazism, but the Nazis started it. And actually, there would have been no world war unless the Nazi regime wasnt hell bent on taking over all of Europe. Were the Midianites really like this? Where is the Biblical proof??
And what was SOOoooOOoooooo bad about their cattle had to be destroyed also??
Why kill the children and spare the virgin women??
I am not sure what sort of peaceful resolution should be sought with a people so steeped in sin and evil that they sacrifice their children to demons? From an eternal point of view...
i. Those adults who consented to this evil way of life were now being judged by God. They had had enough time to repent of their evil and more time would not lead to repentance. God sees and knows the direction of a life. He knows when the last chance to repent has been given.
ii. Those children who would have grown up to such a life of evil were spared by God who brought an end to their earthly life before it could be utterly corrupted.
iii. Those children who might have left the community in repulsion at the way of life being conducted also had an end to their earthly life but were brought into God's presence without being corrupted.
If you read earlier in Numbers you will see that the Midianites visited Balaam the prophet and urged him to curse the Israelites. They promised him all manner of wealth, but he refused to curse them because he told the Midianites that God had blessed them. He went with the King of the Midianites and multiple times gave the word of God to the Midianites, saying that God was with them and he must bless them and could not curse them. The Midianites had every opportunity to dwell in peace with the Israelites, and they received many prophecies from Balaam so that they had no excuse, yet they desired to eliminate the Israelites, even when they had heard that God was with them.
Then, also in Numbers, we read that the Israelites began to mix with the Midianites and to adopt their worship of Baal. One even brought a Midian woman into the camp and slept with her. The Lord was angry with the Israelites but judgement was stayed because Phineas had killed both the Israelite and the Midianite woman he had committed sin with.
It is at this point that the Israelites are instructed to assault the Midianites, because they are assaulting the Israelites with their pagan ways and leading them away from God. Judgement had already been turned towards the Israelites and 24,000 had died in a plague because they had worshipped Baal-Peor.
The Lord had already judged Israel because none of those who were numbered at this point in Numbers were those whom Moses had numbered when they first left Egypt. All of the generation had passed away because of their unbelief. We should not think that the judgement of God was or is partial. He had already judged Israel several times. Now, as the chosen people were about to settle in the promised land, judgement also comes upon the evil nations there.
All of the men are slain, including the kings and the prophet Balaam who had encouraged the worship of Baal-Peor among the Israelites. The boy children are killed, and the cattle.
It is only the girl children who are spared, and they will become part of the Israelite community.
God has judged the Midianites, and brought to an end their nation. But he has not spared his own people. They also are judged. But the end in view is forming a godly people for himself, and to be a witness to the world.
What fellowship has light with darkness?
As to the question about how would it be known if a person was a virgin. I think you are over-complicating the issue a little. In such cultures a female is either:
i. a child
ii. an unmarried (and virgin) young woman
iii. a married woman.
iv. a temple prostitute
It would not be hard to see who was married and who was not.
The young girls are saved because they are still sexually innocent. The older ones are complicit in seeking to seduce the Israelites and lead them to the worship of Baal-Peor.
Father Peter
I don't know about George, but you've answered my concerns. Thanks again. Let's not add to this thread anymore unless you need further explanation. I really want Fr. Peter's answer to be seen as a reference point.
With all due respect to the other posters, I recommend that my original quesiton be shown, and Fr. Peter's answers (the last one and the ones before).
Thanks