Are Orthodox Lazy?

Ioannes

Forgive me for saying this, but I feel as if many Orthodox are lazy and seem to go to church for cultural reasons as opposed to spiritual necessity. I am not saying this is fact or that I can prove it. It is a mere observation, or my interpretation of what I see I guess.

For instance. I cannot seem to get people to do anything. Maybe my suggestions are too radical, that I understand, but my nature is to reach out. I want to spread Orthodoxy, to get it out there. I state my ideas or atleast the need to evangelize and it just goes unnoticed. There is an utter lack of structure and communication and it drives me insane, this is not just my church but according to many people I have discussed this with, but the church as a whole. Which is quite amazing actually, we have survived this long being so disorganized. It just seems as if we are doing what we can just to get by. I mean if no copts came here, there would not be a Coptic church in america.

This is my question tho, is what I am seeing true?

Abounasarecool

Hey so this is my opinion :)
I dont think i can judge and say these ppl are going to church bc of cultural reasons and not spiritual reasons...this could be true for some...but could be wrong for others. But again...who am i to judge that?
& i do see your frustration about the disorganization...but pray about it and talk to your priest or bishop in order to solve that. I would say that that issue is definetly getting better tho :)

ilovesaintmark

Ioannes,

I agree.

The lazy factor extends to so many aspects, not just the evangelization and outreach.

minatasgeel

well some times you have to worry about what's IN the Church before worrying about what's outside. the ones the need help these days are mostly people of the congregation.....

geomike

Before we say other people are lazy we should look at ourselves first.

socoolbishoy

first Orthodoxy is not lazy... this is incorrect, if you want to say it, you should say Orthodox people...
second, Orthodox People are not lazy... not because you are not told everything that happens in your church and/or others' church does that mean that nothing is being done!

also if you think everyone is lazy, why not do all you can do in whatever service... and if it doesn't go through, or something happens that your partners in service did not complete their duty, and in result caused failure to the service! what is the importance here?

do you think God will forget all the work you have done? will He damn you because you didn't finish the service, even though you did all your work?! or will He bless your work, and consider it...

which now brings me to the main point, are you doing your services for your glory or God's glory?!

if its for God's glory, you will not be stressed, you will be relaxed, if one doe not do his duties, you will be very understanding, you will be as a child holding your parent's hand, and know because dad is holding my hand, I can overcome the whole world! if you do not have these feelings, more than likely you are seeking the your glory....

if you are always stressed, wanting the service to be successful is your main goal (we all want the service to be successful, but if you care for the success of the service more than the service itself) if you worry about the success of the service and work hard, because it will give you self gratification... not having faith in God, and thinking you can do it all, these among many others will tell you, you are not seeking God's glory but yours!

so do your service, focus on yourself, don worry about anyone else... and seek YOUR reward, don't worry about anyone else!!!


Neshkor Allah, akhadna el baraka!

Ioannes

[quote author=minagir link=topic=9742.msg119363#msg119363 date=1284558292]
well some times you have to worry about what's IN the Church before worrying about what's outside. the ones the need help these days are mostly people of the congregation.....


I agree. I see many outside influences entering the church and clergy unwilling or unable to do anything about it. St. Mark's of D.C. published that awful "red book" filled with all kinds of stupid protestant songs. And as Fr. Peter correctly pointed out a while back, we should not allow these things to enter into the church through the back door. I have spoken to my FOC about this and requested to speak with a bishop but was denied the opprotunity to do so and was told I never would speak with a bishop. This to me is disconcerting. I know my abrasive tone is what keeps me from being taken seriously and people are afraid that I may offend them. So what? Its not my goal and I do have respect for them, very much indeed. But it seems that questioning things is a big no no, as if we believe in the infalibility of our leaders.

I was absolutely furios the other day. We had a wonderful bishop from St. Samuel's monastery come visit us. I am quite fond him, a very nice and loving individual. What I found amazing is how packed the church was, I have never seen it like that. I am disgusted that people can be late constantly, or just never show up, but when a bishop comes everyone is on time and liturgy starts when it should and runs nearly flawless.

yousiegtennis

.

Ioannes

[quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=9742.msg119375#msg119375 date=1284574519]
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9742.msg119374#msg119374 date=1284573308]
I have spoken to my FOC about this and requested to speak with a bishop but was denied the opprotunity to do so and was told I never would speak with a bishop.


That's not right.  Here in CA, everyone has the Bishop's contact information.  In fact, it is posted on the diocese's website, I think.  Our Bishop hears our complaints all the time, especially since we have something more despicable than the red book...we have BANDS (not all the churches, just some)!!  BANDS!!!  Like full on drums, bass, electric guitar, everything!  It's disgusting and we certainly have complained to our Bishop and I hope he is doing what he can.


I think my FOC was speaking about a particular subject that would not be brought to the bishops attention. You have got to be kidding me? Bands!? This is getting rediculous. What is even more sad is that people are too stupid to understand just how bad this is and why. You know alot of our leaders think that the apostasy is specific to the time when the antichrist reigns, how stupid, and this is why they consider protestants Christian. But which ones should be considered Christian? And how can the Holy Spirit lead us and them, when they consist of several hundred thousand denominations. This is why my personal belief, like Fr. Athanasius Iskander, is that the end is now. We have lost the ability to question and just accept everything blindly. I hope Fr. Peter weighs in on this I am sure he will not agree about the bands. I cant believe that, what a disgrace.

servant33

[quote author=geomike link=topic=9742.msg119366#msg119366 date=1284562493]
Before we say other people are lazy we should look at ourselves first.


It is important not to overlook this.

Don't worry about what other people do or why other people are coming to church because 99.99% of the time we are incorrect in out judgments because we don't see the whole picture. The fact that the Coptic Church is still alive and thriving despite disorganization is a testament of God's power working in our church.
If you want to evangelize, by all means go ahead and God bless your service, but don't accuse the church of not doing anything - again because you do not see the whole picture and evangelism is not always directly teaching about the church.
Lastly, just like how all people have different gifts, I think different churches have the Holy Spirit working in them in different ways. The protestant church, despite differences in theology, is very successful at spreading the message of Christ around the world. Even though the Coptic Church is not as good at doing this, we still have our own blessings and gifts as church.

ilovesaintmark

I'm not lazy, so I am able to say it about others I observe.

I know what a dirty cup looks like, I know what urine on the bathroom walls and floors look like, I know that there are candle drippings everywhere.  Should I go on with my list?

Ioannes

Servant this is what destroys church. A selfish attitude like that. Sin is sin, and I have no right to point out anyone sin, but when it affects others I have that right. When a lax attitude spreads or protestantism spreads, I WILL say something, this is the attitude that I hate. When something needs done, do it. Of course these things should be brought to the attention of the priest and or bishop.

Servant, this is exactly why protestantism has wormed its way into the church. Even though people seen it, nobody said anything. I for one know that protestantism is like a bacteria, it multiplies and spreads the infection until nothing is left but infection. I know many of you think that I am over zealous and taking things too serious. But we are warned in the Gospel of the Apocalypse to keep the words within this prophecy. It is a warning and nobody seems to be heeding it. I am not being over zealous I am doing what Christ has told us all. He told us to watch. So it is a big deal to me.

peterfarrington

While we should be glad that at least God has not left Himself without a witness and that to some extent He makes Himself known in places where Orthodox are not present. Nevertheless Protestantism is not Christian. There are Christians who are Protestants, and there are Protestants who are Christians, even very good Christians, but this is despite the teachings of Protestantism which are not Christian.

I will always defend the devotion and commitment of those Protestants who love our Lord. But they have been confused and deceived, and many of their dearest desires for spiritual growth are frustrated by the protestant situation in which they find themselves.

I do not believe at all that we should consider that protestants are good at evangelism and Orthodox are good at spirituality. The message which Protestantism shares is not the Gospel, and though I am glad that there are many devout souls who share what they have experienced for themselves, nevertheless it is not more than a partial truth. We need to ask ourselves why WE are not doing evangelism everywhere that there are Coptic Orthodox? The responsibility is ours, not protestants.

Thank God that Coptic Orthodox around the world are taking this responsibility more and more seriously. But every congregation should be doing evangelism. It is part of what it means to be the Church. There may be reasons for not being good at it, but we can also find help and advice. But there are no excuses for not praying hard and earnestly and constantly that God would send to us those whom He wants to save, and then doing all we can to help enquirers understand and experience Orthodoxy.

Ioannes

Fr. Peter, I think that what you have highlighted is very true. I think that God allows things for a reason, and protestantism was allowed and is being allowed to enter into our churches. It is frustrating for me because nobody takes anything I say seriously. At first people did not know how to take me, now that they have an excuse to not care what I say, nobody listens. Because I have a mood disorder I am held in check. So for people who DO want to do something it seems impossible.

I do what I can Fr. Peter but it feels as if we are fighting an un-winable war. I spoke on apostasy once and related it to protestant and as far back as the 4th council, and it was not well received. No matter how much evidence I gave. I dont know, its difficult and makes me extremely sad.