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Learning Coptic is Forbidden in Egypt?

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hi  everyone,

Im SO sorry if my question is ignorant about something that maybe obvious for you all, but is it forbidden to teach Coptic in Egyptian schools as a language???

I just saw a video by H.G. Bishop Thomas who stated this as a fact.



Can anyone bring me links concerning this? The language was forbidden to be taught in schools to promote the "arabization" of Egypt.

I had no idea!!!
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Comments

  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Sasi,

    What's with you man?  Are you for real today?  Did someone hit you on the head with a hammer or what? 

    I have never seen you wandering with comments like this before.

    What gives?

    Are you serious?
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=9825.msg120274#msg120274 date=1286411067]
    Sasi,

    What's with you man?  Are you for real today?  Did someone hit you on the head with a hammer or what? 

    I have never seen you wandering with comments like this before.

    What gives?

    Are you serious?


    What's wrong?

    Is it true? It is forbidden to teach Coptic as a language in an  Egyptian School??

    Thanks
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    What's wrong is that they can't even learn languages that are used today in the world....why in the world would they teach a language that is technically (sad to say) dead to many people for centuries?
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Sorry guys if I seem a bit slow to pick up what you're saying, but I'd just like someone to confirm whether or not it is against the law in Egypt to teach Coptic in Schools??

    H.G. Bishop Thomas said that in any school (private or public) students can learn ANY foreign language EXCEPT Coptic. It is forbidden for Coptic to be taught. This was to ensure the arabization of Egypt.

    Can anyone confirm this (with a simple "yes" or "No" answer i loveSaintMark) plus with references??

    I'd really like references where possible

    Thanks
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Sasi,

    Simply put:  YES.

    His Grace is the source. 

    You have to realize that there are many blatant things in Egypt, and other things that have undercurrents to them.

    Examples:

    --The President of the Arab Republic of Egypt is elected by a 99% plebicide and no other opponents on the ballot.

    --The Egyptian Constitution states that "the Koran is the source for laws in the country".

    These would constitute blatant things.

    On an undertow or covert aspect, you have to declare on official documents your religion:  birth certificate, driver's license, national I.D. card, passport, etc.  Also, when you take your exams, you place your name, date, and religion on the examination sheet.  There is no written law for such things, but they serve one purpose and that is to segregate the two main segments of the population.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=9825.msg120317#msg120317 date=1286463647]
    Sasi,

    Simply put:  YES.

    His Grace is the source. 

    You have to realize that there are many blatant things in Egypt, and other things that have undercurrents to them.

    Examples:

    --The President of the Arab Republic of Egypt is elected by a 99% plebicide and no other opponents on the ballot.

    --The Egyptian Constitution states that "the Koran is the source for laws in the country".

    These would constitute blatant things.

    On an undertow or covert aspect, you have to declare on official documents your religion:  birth certificate, driver's license, national I.D. card, passport, etc.  Also, when you take your exams, you place your name, date, and religion on the examination sheet.  There is no written law for such things, but they serve one purpose and that is to segregate the two main segments of the population.


    Hang on, you have to put your religion on exam papers!???

    DO YOU HAVE PROOF OF THIS!??

    Thanks
  • Abounasarecool
    WOW i didnt know this...
    & the sad part is that other countries are worse than this
    We need to pray for Egypt & all the muslim countries
    God bless
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Zoxsasi,

    Call your family in Egypt and ask them.  That's all the proof you need.
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    .
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Mina and all,
    How is Coptic language a dead language?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=9825.msg120333#msg120333 date=1286485911]
    Dear Mina and all,
    How is Coptic language a dead language?


    i know that's gonna happened :) :)

    Well it is not a language of a country.......and it won't be for any time soon. for as much as we all dream it....it won't. we have to consider reality. Ophadece, please understand what i am saying.



  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    .
  • epchois_nai_nanepchois_nai_nan
    [coptic]`cnawnq on icje oumys `nrwmi aucaboc. ouon ouwp `nnoj `nrwmi etoucaji `ebol `nqytc ke `mvoou. ouon ]houi] `nounis] `njintoujo nahran. hw] rw `ntencahni `noury] `n`mton `ecaboc[/coptic] :)

    It will live again if a lot of people learn it. A significant number of people use it even today. We've got the beginnings of a promising revival on our hands. We have to provide an easy way to learn it though.

    God bless :)
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    I know you are all going to kill me, but if Coptic is forbidden to be taught in Egyptian schools, then I will learn it and use it more often. It sounds much nicer than arabic anyway.

    Can someone just send me proof that Coptic was forbidden to be taught in Egyptian Schools.

    Thanks
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear all,
    I am sorry I keep replying from my mobile and can't use Coptic fonts. I'm so disappointed by your replies especially Mina and ebshois_nai_nan. I take it Godlovesme is a young non-EGypt born member.
    The Coptic language is still being used among a number of families in the south of Egypt those very people that fr. Shenouda Maher sought help from when he was studying for his degree. We're trying to revive the language on a bigger scale but "revive" here is a mistakenly used word.
    By no scientific or pragmatic means is the Coptic language dead.
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    .
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=9825.msg120365#msg120365 date=1286522254]
    Dear all,
    I am sorry I keep replying from my mobile and can't use Coptic fonts. I'm so disappointed by your replies especially Mina and ebshois_nai_nan. I take it Godlovesme is a young non-EGypt born member.
    The Coptic language is still being used among a number of families in the south of Egypt those very people that fr. Shenouda Maher sought help from when he was studying for his degree. We're trying to revive the language on a bigger scale but "revive" here is a mistakenly used word.
    By no scientific or pragmatic means is the Coptic language dead.
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot


    Let's bring it alive. We can revive it by using it more often. We can give it life by at the very least saying good morning and good evening to each other in Church IN COPTIC!

    Im going to start. Let's not foolishly throw away our culture like this.

    Also, I think we should learn a bit of Greek - a lot of our hymns are in Greek - what do you think?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    And we can say:  Efnouti instead of Allah.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=9825.msg120377#msg120377 date=1286538411]
    And we can say:  Efnouti instead of Allah.


    lovely!! I agree!!

    Efnouti is WAY better than "allah".

    Any other smart suggestions?
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Godlovesme,
    I'm sorry I obviously did not mean to offend you but it seems I managed to do that. Sorry again.
    Let me tell you that your argument is actually flawed (as long as you have paid attention to my previous post). Coptic is still being practised to this very day unlike Latin and old Greek. IT is not a dead language.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9825.msg120364#msg120364 date=1286521780]
    I know you are all going to kill me, but if Coptic is forbidden to be taught in Egyptian schools, then I will learn it and use it more often. It sounds much nicer than arabic anyway.

    Can someone just send me proof that Coptic was forbidden to be taught in Egyptian Schools.

    Thanks

    so you want to learn the language only because it might be "forbidden to be taught in Egyptian schools"?!!!!!!!!

    lovely......the best reason to do so.
    haha...it's like you have understood NOTHING of what we are considering about the langauge....

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=9825.msg120365#msg120365 date=1286522254]
    Dear all,
    I am sorry I keep replying from my mobile and can't use Coptic fonts. I'm so disappointed by your replies especially Mina and ebshois_nai_nan. I take it Godlovesme is a young non-EGypt born member.
    The Coptic language is still being used among a number of families in the south of Egypt those very people that fr. Shenouda Maher sought help from when he was studying for his degree. We're trying to revive the language on a bigger scale but "revive" here is a mistakenly used word.
    By no scientific or pragmatic means is the Coptic language dead.
    God bless you all and pray for us a lot


    Ya habibi......for as much as i love reading and writing coptic......and soon speak it hopefully, reality is what we live in and what we deal with.
    We can do a lot to change, but should not expect it. Do what we can and our best, but not trust that to be the outcome.
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    .
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Godlovesme,

    Here is a deduction for you:

    If the Church is living and has sacraments;
    ...and the Sacraments are living as we pray in them;
    ...and when we pray we may utilize Coptic (when used with understanding);
    Does this not make Coptic, as a language, a living language and endeavor?

    I have always pleaded that I am:  Orthodox first, and Coptic second.

    This fact allows me to be in fellowship and regard with someone who is British Orthodox, Armenian, Syriac, etc., but does not take away from my cultural identity and my yearning to leave free in the sacrifices that my forefathers made.
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    .
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Mina,
    I can't say I understand your post really. I think you were replying to something I didn't mention in the quote you referred to. Please explain to me what you mean.
    Dear Godlovesme,
    So you live in Italy? Do you consider yourself Italian then? Well, that is just a rhetoric question, because although I don't live in Italy, never have been there, but I am the biggest Italian fan on this planet. Even Italians themselves admitted to me they don't love Italy as much as I do... so I defy you to be the same... hehe... btw Italy will play Brazil tomorrow in pallavolo semi-finale, and under vente-uno Azzurri beat Belarus 2-0, and I am waiting for the match of the senior Azzurri vs Northern Ireland (in a few minutes time)...
    OH MY GOD... completely off topic. Sorry...
    Back to our topic: I did view the wikipedia pages you may have alluded to in your posts. I completely understand your argument about olden Greek, and Latin, which are still used in Roman Catholic churches, but are dead. I agree. However, Coptic is not treated the same. That article is not 100% accurate to me. The Coptic language may not be a primary language anymore, may have been replaced by Arabic in terms of the majority of the Egyptian population, but there is still native speakers of the language who do speak Coptic. That makes it a "living" language. I am not talking about ecclesiastical usage, or kholagy books or psalmodies, etc, because in that sense it will amount to the olden Greek, and Latin, but when native speakers speak the language even though on a miniscule scale, it is still a "living" but not a "primary" language.
    I am quoting someone called George, Remenkimi is his nickname on coptichymns.net website, and I think here also, but can't remember: there you go:
    Read these two articles on language death and language change. Coptic is not linguistically defined as a dead language. Coptic can be defined as a diachronic change with moribund. In other words, Coptic has such variety within different time periods that it is diachronic but it's on its way to being dead because it is not used as a primary language. What you are describing is socialinguistics. I think we can agree that we cannot say Coptic is a primary language for Copts as a society, not individual Copts. It's not. Nor is it at the other end of dead, where no surviving person knows the language.
    That person has a masters degree in Coptic studies, and as you can see he is well-learned on Coptic language, as one of the many respects of his knowledge.
    One last thing: if some Greek village started producing some books on olden Greek, and started practising (even though inaccurately), and propagating even though on a small scale, would olden Greek be called dead anymore? I doubt that.
    Do I really think Jewish language died before it was revived in Israel today? I don't really think so, but it may well have been. Those latter two examples have no bearing to the reality with Coptic language.
    [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    .
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Godlovesme,

    There are a lot of Westerners that think that Orthodoxy is dead--but It is alive.

    There are a lot of Westerners that think that the Coptic Orthodox Church is dead--but It is alive.

    There are a lot of Westerners that think that the Coptic language is dead--but it is most certainly alive.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Godlovesme,
    I'd just like to urge you to look at websites through google scholar search engine. Of course I'm not talking about those websites relating to the Coptic language. The definition I'd like to once again stress out: language dies with the death of the last speaker. Certainly that's not the case with Coptic language. In addition I won't comment on the sources you refer to until I have a look myself but I hope those aren't sources ridiculing the Coptic language per se. Yes I won't be surprised if you come across a lot of these. Anyway if you still disagree that Coptic language is a living language then I hope you at least agree that scientifically it is a "thriving" language or a deteriorating one although I don't think the latter term actually applies.
    OF course what you say about the youth in not only California but also in Egypt and everywhere else that they don't care about Coptic, but let me tell you that I'm very pessimistic about such an issue. As a matter of fact I don't believe Coptic will ever be revived to such a large scale that they can be won back ever. I do like your style of complaining about that issue As you come across very caring on the language as well as the youth. May God bless us all and change our ways to the best He sees fit.
  • ophadeceophadece
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=9825.msg120413#msg120413 date=1286571283]
    Godlovesme,

    There are a lot of Westerners that think that Orthodoxy is dead--but It is alive.

    There are a lot of Westerners that think that the Coptic Orthodox Church is dead--but It is alive.

    There are a lot of Westerners that think that the Coptic language is dead--but it is most certainly alive.


    +200 ilovesaintmark
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    .
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