Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Notice how not worshiping the beast = Beheading
Hmm I wounder who stills beheads in this time of age!
[quote author=Pharaoh714 link=topic=9836.msg120523#msg120523 date=1286801920] You forgot to add :
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Notice how not worshiping the beast = Beheading
Hmm I wounder who stills beheads in this time of age!
Wow!
lol.. .this is just too unbelievable.
So, old mo is the anti? And those that follow him and his god aren't going to heaven. Oh dear.
Let's face it: getting your adopted son to divorce his wife so you could marry her and finding a verse from the Quran to prove it to him was a bit of a giveaway.
And then the breastfeeding foreign men was a dead giveway.. I said to myself : "....this guy is just having a laugh".
I mean, if it wasn't real, it would be hilarious. I can't believe people fell for this.
I think it is St. Gregory, possibly St. Basil, who said that the martyrs of the time of the antichrist will be the most blessed martyrs ever. I try not to divulge too much, it is a complicated subject.
2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries." 3For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
Adultary, in this context, refers to idolatry, or loving a false God.
The nations that "have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries" are those nations who are doing business with Saudi Arabia. Its as clear as crystal. They are clearly doing business with a state that has made it abundantly clear that neither Churches, nor the worship of Christ, whether in private or not, is permitted.
How can our nations be doing business with Saudi Arabia?
How can this be disputed??
How can a nation, such the USA, or UK, whose faith is not even respected in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, do business with them? How can they buy and sell to such a nation? Why do they criticise Iran over their human rights problems, and yet reward Saudi Arabia - who have the same appaling human rights??
Obama hasn't kept his promises... he promised he would try to be independent from foreign oil.. this hasn't materialised. It won't. It will never happen with him.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120528#msg120528 date=1286810750] OMG, It is Islam. Look at the rest of the chapter:
Well....let us think LOGICALLY for a second......are we suffering right now?
You might say yes...so let me add somthing else to the question: are we suffering right now more than those who suffered during the time of Diocletian?
The Fathers do not allow us to make any of the sort of claims that are being made in this thread.
So, does that mean we should not even read the book of Revelations? Should we not be wise to discern what it is telling us? What exactly did the Church fathers say about interpreting the number/mark/sign of the beast??
Let us concentrate on our own salvation and pray that we are not the anti-Christ.
If I asked a question about a verse in the Bible, you could always respond to it with "Let us concentrate on our own salvation"...
So what then is the point of a forum where we can ask questions, debate and gain knowledge.
If the father's told us NOT to interpret or to even think about who the anti-Christ is, then why did they include the book of Revelations in the Bible for?? What was the point of that?? Why do we even bother reading it, if we're being asked to be blind about what it is telling us???
You said ISLAM is the "anti-christ" we live in Islam right now.....heck we been living with them for over 10 centuries....how come we, as Christians are not to the point of suffering explained by Jesus?
You said ISLAM is the "anti-christ" we live in Islam right now.....heck we been living with them for over 10 centuries....how come we, as Christians are not to the point of suffering explained by Jesus?
We are.
please go and check out the barnabas fund and other associations who have been trying support persecuted Christians around the world.
We did suffer by Islam, that was when Amr Ibn Aas brought the banner of Islam into Egypt and subdued Coptic Christians and Christianity in general in Egypt in the 7th Century.
Christians are suffering in Egypt. Maybe if you're Christian now and are wealthy, you may not notice it, but it does happen.
What is the biggest terrorist threat today? Islam.
The attacks in New York's World Trade Center happened when? 2001! Its not that long ago Mina. July 7 bombings, Madrid, etc... does any of this ring a bell.
You say "we are not to the point of suffering" - we are! Islam has changed how we live. It is a huge threat.
I'm surprised you live in the states and do not realise this.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120535#msg120535 date=1286812827] I'm surprised you live in the states and do not realise this.
No....I am SHOCKED that you are comparing our lives now to what we expect in the end time and to what happened back in the Era of martyrs...........
Dude....are writing on a post on a laptop that is connected to the internet somewhere in europe........on a forum that is a database that is kept in the states. you call that suffering?!
I am not gonna bother with this anymore if you can't even make the distinction.
So please, consider abouna's proposal and stop talking about Islam......
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9836.msg120536#msg120536 date=1286813534] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120535#msg120535 date=1286812827] I'm surprised you live in the states and do not realise this.
No....I am SHOCKED that you are comparing our lives now to what we expect in the end time and to what happened back in the Era of martyrs...........
Dude....are writing on a post on a laptop that is connected to the internet somewhere in europe........on a forum that is a database that is kept in the states. you call that suffering?!
I am not gonna bother with this anymore if you can't even make the distinction.
So please, consider abouna's proposal and stop talking about Islam......
If the building you are in (whilst surfng the internet) gets bombed by 2 planes, or you die whilst taking the metro home, then yes, I would call that suffering.
Thanks Mina for your input to this topic. You always bring a unique perspective and originality to a topic. Its going to be a shame we won't have your comments on this thread.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120537#msg120537 date=1286813656] If the building you are (whilst surfng the internet) in gets bombed by 2 planes, or you die whilst taking the metro home, then yes, I would call that suffering.
No. I wouldn't call it suffering. where is the suffering?! where is the witness to God's name?! where is the choice to die for God?!
mish ba-ollak you can't even make the distinction.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9836.msg120538#msg120538 date=1286813980] [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120537#msg120537 date=1286813656] If the building you are (whilst surfng the internet) in gets bombed by 2 planes, or you die whilst taking the metro home, then yes, I would call that suffering.
No. I wouldn't call it suffering. where is the suffering?! where is the witness to God's name?! where is the choice to die for God?!
mish ba-ollak you can't even make the distinction.
The 7 Coptic Christians who died after Christmas mass on Sunday at the beginning of this year - they were threatened and they still went to Church, and they died.
Why don't you go to barnabus Fund website and see the COUNTLESS number of Christians persecuted in Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Turkey.
In Turkey, 3 Christians were persecuted/beheaded for preaching Christianity - just this year!! Oh! Let's not forget also the Armenian Genocide that killed Millions from our sister Church!! That wasn't that far away...
In Pakistan, many have been killed recently for their faith.
And all this is going on whilst you've been surfing the internet, Mina.
Nigeria - 1000's of Christians are dying there! Sudan, Somalia, etc.. they are being killed; and you don't notice it because you are in America, attached to the internet, and sending emails, and writing comments on tasbeha.org.
Look, why don't go here to see the suffering of other Christians OUTSIDE the borders of the USA: http://www.persecution.org/
The Fathers do not allow us to make any of the sort of claims that are being made in this thread.
So, does that mean we should not even read the book of Revelations? Should we not be wise to discern what it is telling us?
I think the Fathers are referring to this:
"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)
The Fathers do not allow us to make any of the sort of claims that are being made in this thread.
So, does that mean we should not even read the book of Revelations? Should we not be wise to discern what it is telling us?
I think the Fathers are referring to this:
"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)
Thank you George.
That's what I wanted to know. That's perfect. But my question was clearly asking : if the Church fathers had already ascertained WHO/WHAT is the beast?? Did they know??
I was not suggesting it was Islam, but from the material, evidence, and what I've seen, it doesn't look too promising for them.
Although I do agree with minagir that what is going on today does not seem to be the suffering that Christ described. Many of the early Christians suffered just as much, if not more, than the ones who are suffering today (i.e, Diocletian's reign). The suffering that Christ described seems like it should be more easily distinguishable ("For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" -Matthew 24:21).
I am not saying there is no suffering today; I am simply saying we can't say for sure that this is as bad as it is going to get.
As far as "The beast" goes, I couldn't tell you. Revelation is so deep and complex, that's why there are dozens of books out there by church fathers concerning single chapters of it.
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=9836.msg120548#msg120548 date=1286816189] Although I do agree with minagir that what is going on today does not seem to be the suffering that Christ described. Many of the early Christians suffered just as much, if not more, than the ones who are suffering today (i.e, Diocletian's reign). The suffering that Christ described seems like it should be more easily distinguishable ("For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" -Matthew 24:21).
I am not saying there is no suffering today; I am simply saying we can't say for sure that this is as bad as it is going to get.
As far as "The beast" goes, I couldn't tell you. Revelation is so deep and complex, that's why there are dozens of books out there by church fathers concerning single chapters of it.
Yes, maybe it will get worse in the future?
Are we allowed to predict who the anti-Christ is?? At the very least?? Or try to figure it out???
You are not asking questions anymore I think, but making rather sweeping accusations that the Fathers do not support.
We do not know who the anti-Christ is. This is the position of the Church.
None of us should say, 'the Bible means this' unless we have learned from the Fathers. There is an early commentary on Revelation by Oecumenius. It is mostly online and I have already mentioned it in this thread I think.
I recommend that those interested in Revelation should read that first.
Asking who the anti-Christ is and then making judgements about people is not the same as asking how a spiritual verse should be understood. We are not to judge others.
Fr. Peter is such a wise individual, and is 100% correct. While the church fathers attempted to decode "666" they all acknowledged that they do not know and that it probably wont be known until he is here. They did however describe him and some of his attributes. St. Hippolytus wrote on the antichrist and pointed out that he will be a jew from the tribe of Dan, which again is why it is not mentioned in the Gospel of the Apocalypse when listing the tribes of Israel. Clearly he will be a great orator and able to captivate people with his speech.
The conclusion I have come to is that since he brings all nations under his authority and he sits in the temple to proclaim himself God, the abomination of desolation, there needs to be some things in place for him to do so without being rejected by the majority. St. Paul tells us that the mystery of lawlessness was at work already in his time and that the falling away must come first, before the antichrist is revealed. This lawlessness does not necessarily mean that it will be total anarchy but a law contrary to the law of God, as well as lawlessness amongst all religions, especially Christianity.
This will enable him to take hold rather easily with little resistance. The jews will be deceived because they are waiting for their messiah, and a worldly one at that. The muslims believe that Christ comes to judge everyone, therefore they will think that it is He who came to judge all. Some protestants will believe this is the rapture and some will believe that is is the 1,000 year reign. Because of the confusion many people will just be completely dumbfounded and believe in the antichrist for multiple reasons and not necessarily the ones above.
This is why I am opposed to this new age "we all worship the same God" belief, because that is the exact mentality the antichrist will play off of, amongst other things. I would not be surprised if he actually says something to this effect, that he is God and that all religions worship him in their own way and that they are all correct. I cannot count the number of people I run into who believe this, even some of the most pious people.
Please remember these are my opinions based one extensive research, I do not expect anyone to grasp ahold of them but atleast take them into consideration. What we must remember is that the Gospel of the Apocalypse is unique in that it is constantly revealing its secrets to us and is in need of constant interpretation based on the work of those before us. We do not know who the antichrist is, but by his attributes we will know him when he comes.
With respect, I do not think that we need to worry about this at all.
The problems we face are square in our face and have nothing to do with trying to interpret Revelation. This has never been a major concern of the Church.
There are many passages in Revelation which are very clear, such as the messages to the Churches. Such as the hope that despite all that will happen good will prevail and God will be Lord over all.
For most Christians it is entirely irrelevant who the anti-Christ is and when he might come. The martyrs of the Church bore witness in the most difficult circumstances and kept the faith. The Church has faced countless demonic opponents over the millenia and has been preserved.
If we consider that the Church faces the temptations of laziness, worldliness, power and pride, ignorance and heresy, then it does not seem to me to be of value to try and work our who the anti-Christ is. There are plenty of things that obviously need to be done in any case. When Stalin was trying to extinguish the Church there were many who wondered if he was the anti-Christ, but the message of Revelation is not geared up for such curiosity. It is rather a message of hope for those in such circumstances.
When I was a Protestant everyone was interested in these questions, but no-one knew much about holiness and the spiritual life. I am concerned that an interest in these questions derives from the Protestant influence in the West. I am not saying that this is always the case, but there is a reason why we do not read the Revelation in Church all year. There is a reason why few of the Fathers have written about Revelation in detail.
We do not need to know about the anti-Christ, the spirit of anti-Christ is always in the world. We do need to ask whether the Church is prepared for the trials which we are called to face now, and whether we are living the Christian life to the greatest extent. Whether there is a thousand years of the world to go, or just a thousand minutes, our own responsibilities and callings are not one iota different. Whether we face Stalin or the 'anti-Christ' our responsibilities and callings are no different.
This is why I personally think that it is better to consider our own salvation than the speculative questions that often arise in regard to prophecy in the Bible. It is better to consider the health of the Church than become excited (as I was when I was a Protestant) think that the end is near. Our own end is the one we need to be bothered about, and for sure that will take place in just a few decades time for each one of us.
I am not necessarily sure if I should reply to this, but as a student of eschatology I feel compelled. I side with Fr. Athanasius Iskander, who also believes in the importance of this book and that the end is now. However I do agree Fr. Peter that it is of no use to calculate the number, atleast until he is here. While you make many great points I am not inclined to say you are wrong but merely that I disagree. I believe that the Gospel of the Apocalypse goes along with our salvation in the sense that we must be prepared for what is coming, possibly in our lifetime. I think that because we focus too much on the here and now we ignore a large part of what we should be watching for. The jews did not properly watch for the signs of the birth of Christ and were deceived. So I do think it is important that we take this book seriously and not downplay it as not being relevant to salvation, as Christ tells us to watch, this is one of the ways in which we can.
My personal observation of our church tells me many things. Protestantism creeping in through the back door, the inability to use on language in church is pushing people away, the perceived infallibility of our leaders, etc. Again this is my opinion, I value yours very much and I dont want to say that you are completely wrong and I am completely right, or that I am right at all. I hope you forgive me if I have offended you, this was not meant as an attack or anything of the sort, just my view of what is going on.
I understand your view, and I know that you have put a great deal of serious study into these things, but I disagree, not least because I have seen so many Protestant Christians sucked into a pointless obession with interpreting things that the Fathers leave deliberately vague.
My own Protestant tradition was deeply obsessed with these things, and held conferences from the 1820's onwards to decide what it all meant. They even separated from those who interpreted these un-interpretable things differently. But essentially ALL groups who have gone into these things have ALWAYS been wrong. I myself was convinced that the end would come in the 1980's. But it didn't.
I also do not think that these times are any different to any other. The only threat that is faced from Protestant theology is due to our own laziness and lack of discipline. There is nothing worse in modern Protestant heresies than those of the past. The Russian Church was almost eliminated, nothing that will happen in the future could be worse. Indeed in Albania it WAS wiped out entirely. The Church of Carthage is no more, nor that of Libya, nor that of Nubia. All have been eliminated by the Islamic invasion - but this was not the end either. Was Justinian the anti-Christ when he tried to wipe out the Church? or Hitler? or Genghis Khan?
The enemies we face in the West are internal, they are our own laziness and lack of discipline. The enemies faced in the East are the same as have been faced for 1000 years.
Personally I think there is hope for a great renewal of faith in the UK. 71% still want to identify themselves as Christian. They could easily say they were agnostic or atheist. The Church of England looks as if it is collapsing, and a vigorous Catholicism would be good, in my opinion, for my country and open many possibilities for Orthodoxy.
But is Orthodoxy ready? I was very glad indeed to have about 30 people at the first Orthodox Education Day, and we considered it a success. But why only 30 and not 300? I am very glad indeed that the Coptic Evangelism Fellowship of North America is planning a mission to Bolivia, but why do we not seem geared up in the UK for serious and pan-Orthodox mission to British people? The problems we face in these days are not down to the anti-Christ, they are down to us. Pointing at Protestants as the problem just seems plain wrong to me. We should be such witnesses to the faith that Protestants are joining us in great numbers, rather than us seeing our own people leaving and joining Protestant groups. This is not the anti-Christ at work, but our communities failing to inspire, educate and discipline our members. Where is the great cry of prayer rising up for our countries and that the Lord would send His Holy Spirit upon our land? In my opinion if there are problems in our societies it is often and usually because the Church has failed to be the Church. But it is easier to blame others, even the Devil.
When he comes maybe I will blame the anti-Christ for my problems. But I don't believe that my problems are anything other than caused by me.
This is not a criticism of you, Ioannes, though I do disagree with your view of the importance and understanding of Revelation.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9836.msg120554#msg120554 date=1286820162] You are not asking questions anymore I think, but making rather sweeping accusations that the Fathers do not support.
We do not know who the anti-Christ is. This is the position of the Church.
None of us should say, 'the Bible means this' unless we have learned from the Fathers. There is an early commentary on Revelation by Oecumenius. It is mostly online and I have already mentioned it in this thread I think.
I recommend that those interested in Revelation should read that first.
Asking who the anti-Christ is and then making judgements about people is not the same as asking how a spiritual verse should be understood. We are not to judge others.
Father Peter
I see your point.
lol...
I got carried away. First it started out as a question, and then it sort of got more or less as a certainty.
You are right, no one is sure who the anti-Christ is... are we? Perhaps he or she hasn't even arrived yet.
I take it that you are opposed to Churches who talk about the Rapture etc then?
I do not want people to think I am advocating the ability to understand the Gospel of the Apocalypse in its entirety. As I said previously this book is constantly revealing itself to us as the time grows near. Luke 18:8 states "When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?" The change has been suttle over the years, so much so that we dont actually see it, much like the frog in the water, slowly increase the temp and it will never know, eventually boiling to death and not trying to escape.
Again I am nobody but I feel this is my greatest criticism of the clergy.
The Rapture is a modern idea mostly from the 1820's onwards and was popularised by the founders of the Protestant group I belonged to.
I do not really agree with any such speculation. When the disciples asked our Lord about whether or not St John would remain until the end of things he warned them,
John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
I think this is the best advice. We know what we need to do each day. We know what problems our Church faces. Let us deal with those.
Why does the Bible contain such ambiguity in the first place? Why would God reveal these things to St. John, only for us to read it almost 2000 years later, still without much of clue as to what it all really means? It was placed for us to read, yet we have no clear understanding of it. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=9836.msg120578#msg120578 date=1286829842] Why does the Bible contain such ambiguity in the first place? Why would God reveal these things to St. John, only for us to read it almost 2000 years later, still without much of clue as to what it all really means? It was placed for us to read, yet we have no clear understanding of it. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
Do we live out the portions of the Scripture we do understand?
Why then should we worry about the parts we do not?
Do we understand how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?
I know that I live out so little of what I do know that seeking after greater knowledge of things I do not need to know is a temptation, and not a means of grace.
How does knowing anything about the anti-Christ help us today to live a life of holiness, faithfulness, humility and devotion? I don't think I think that it does.
Comments
I wasn't arguing over it.
I just asked a simple question: "WHO IS THE 666 BEAST"?
What's so bad about that??
You all act as if you wrote the book of revelations anyway.
I don't care who the beast is... I just wanted to know roughly if it could be Mo. It seems like Mo, and it has all his trademarks.
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Notice how not worshiping the beast = Beheading
Hmm I wounder who stills beheads in this time of age!
You forgot to add :
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Notice how not worshiping the beast = Beheading
Hmm I wounder who stills beheads in this time of age!
Wow!
lol.. .this is just too unbelievable.
So, old mo is the anti? And those that follow him and his god aren't going to heaven. Oh dear.
Let's face it: getting your adopted son to divorce his wife so you could marry her and finding a verse from the Quran to prove it to him was a bit of a giveaway.
And then the breastfeeding foreign men was a dead giveway.. I said to myself : "....this guy is just having a laugh".
I mean, if it wasn't real, it would be hilarious. I can't believe people fell for this.
Your last post really made me think, you know!
If I understand correctly, those who are killed (beheaded) for the sake of their belief of Christ will "reign with Christ for 1000 years".
What does that mean?
So, after 1000 years, what happens?
So when did the beadings start against Christians?
When did Amr Ibn Aas come to Egypt?
It is Islam. Look at the rest of the chapter:
2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."
3For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
Adultary, in this context, refers to idolatry, or loving a false God.
The nations that "have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries" are those nations who are doing business with Saudi Arabia. Its as clear as crystal. They are clearly doing business with a state that has made it abundantly clear that neither Churches, nor the worship of Christ, whether in private or not, is permitted.
How can our nations be doing business with Saudi Arabia?
How can this be disputed??
How can a nation, such the USA, or UK, whose faith is not even respected in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, do business with them? How can they buy and sell to such a nation? Why do they criticise Iran over their human rights problems, and yet reward Saudi Arabia - who have the same appaling human rights??
Obama hasn't kept his promises... he promised he would try to be independent from foreign oil.. this hasn't materialised. It won't. It will never happen with him.
The Fathers do not allow us to make any of the sort of claims that are being made in this thread.
Let us concentrate on our own salvation and pray that we are not the anti-Christ.
Father Peter
OMG,
It is Islam. Look at the rest of the chapter:
Well....let us think LOGICALLY for a second......are we suffering right now?
You might say yes...so let me add somthing else to the question: are we suffering right now more than those who suffered during the time of Diocletian?
The Fathers do not allow us to make any of the sort of claims that are being made in this thread.
So, does that mean we should not even read the book of Revelations?
Should we not be wise to discern what it is telling us?
What exactly did the Church fathers say about interpreting the number/mark/sign of the beast?? If I asked a question about a verse in the Bible, you could always respond to it with "Let us concentrate on our own salvation"...
So what then is the point of a forum where we can ask questions, debate and gain knowledge.
If the father's told us NOT to interpret or to even think about who the anti-Christ is, then why did they include the book of Revelations in the Bible for?? What was the point of that?? Why do we even bother reading it, if we're being asked to be blind about what it is telling us???
Mina,
I didnt get your question. Sorry.
Mina,
I didnt get your question. Sorry.
You said ISLAM is the "anti-christ"
we live in Islam right now.....heck we been living with them for over 10 centuries....how come we, as Christians are not to the point of suffering explained by Jesus?
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120531#msg120531 date=1286812209]
Mina,
I didnt get your question. Sorry.
You said ISLAM is the "anti-christ"
we live in Islam right now.....heck we been living with them for over 10 centuries....how come we, as Christians are not to the point of suffering explained by Jesus?
We are.
please go and check out the barnabas fund and other associations who have been trying support persecuted Christians around the world.
We did suffer by Islam, that was when Amr Ibn Aas brought the banner of Islam into Egypt and subdued Coptic Christians and Christianity in general in Egypt in the 7th Century.
Christians are suffering in Egypt. Maybe if you're Christian now and are wealthy, you may not notice it, but it does happen.
What is the biggest terrorist threat today? Islam.
The attacks in New York's World Trade Center happened when? 2001! Its not that long ago Mina.
July 7 bombings, Madrid, etc... does any of this ring a bell.
You say "we are not to the point of suffering" - we are! Islam has changed how we live. It is a huge threat.
I'm surprised you live in the states and do not realise this.
I'm surprised you live in the states and do not realise this.
No....I am SHOCKED that you are comparing our lives now to what we expect in the end time and to what happened back in the Era of martyrs...........
Dude....are writing on a post on a laptop that is connected to the internet somewhere in europe........on a forum that is a database that is kept in the states. you call that suffering?!
I am not gonna bother with this anymore if you can't even make the distinction.
So please, consider abouna's proposal and stop talking about Islam......
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120535#msg120535 date=1286812827]
I'm surprised you live in the states and do not realise this.
No....I am SHOCKED that you are comparing our lives now to what we expect in the end time and to what happened back in the Era of martyrs...........
Dude....are writing on a post on a laptop that is connected to the internet somewhere in europe........on a forum that is a database that is kept in the states. you call that suffering?!
I am not gonna bother with this anymore if you can't even make the distinction.
So please, consider abouna's proposal and stop talking about Islam......
If the building you are in (whilst surfng the internet) gets bombed by 2 planes, or you die whilst taking the metro home, then yes, I would call that suffering.
Thanks Mina for your input to this topic. You always bring a unique perspective and originality to a topic. Its going to be a shame we won't have your comments on this thread.
Thanks anyway.
Remember me in your prayers.
If the building you are (whilst surfng the internet) in gets bombed by 2 planes, or you die whilst taking the metro home, then yes, I would call that suffering.
No. I wouldn't call it suffering. where is the suffering?! where is the witness to God's name?! where is the choice to die for God?!
mish ba-ollak you can't even make the distinction.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120537#msg120537 date=1286813656]
If the building you are (whilst surfng the internet) in gets bombed by 2 planes, or you die whilst taking the metro home, then yes, I would call that suffering.
No. I wouldn't call it suffering. where is the suffering?! where is the witness to God's name?! where is the choice to die for God?!
mish ba-ollak you can't even make the distinction.
The 7 Coptic Christians who died after Christmas mass on Sunday at the beginning of this year - they were threatened and they still went to Church, and they died.
Why don't you go to barnabus Fund website and see the COUNTLESS number of Christians persecuted in Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Turkey.
In Turkey, 3 Christians were persecuted/beheaded for preaching Christianity - just this year!! Oh! Let's not forget also the Armenian Genocide that killed Millions from our sister Church!! That wasn't that far away...
In Pakistan, many have been killed recently for their faith.
And all this is going on whilst you've been surfing the internet, Mina.
Nigeria - 1000's of Christians are dying there! Sudan, Somalia, etc.. they are being killed; and you don't notice it because you are in America, attached to the internet, and sending emails, and writing comments on tasbeha.org.
Look, why don't go here to see the suffering of other Christians OUTSIDE the borders of the USA:
http://www.persecution.org/
They also have internet access ya Mina!!!!
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9836.msg120529#msg120529 date=1286811725]
The Fathers do not allow us to make any of the sort of claims that are being made in this thread.
So, does that mean we should not even read the book of Revelations?
Should we not be wise to discern what it is telling us?
I think the Fathers are referring to this:
"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9836.msg120531#msg120531 date=1286812209]
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9836.msg120529#msg120529 date=1286811725]
The Fathers do not allow us to make any of the sort of claims that are being made in this thread.
So, does that mean we should not even read the book of Revelations?
Should we not be wise to discern what it is telling us?
I think the Fathers are referring to this:
"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)
Thank you George.
That's what I wanted to know. That's perfect. But my question was clearly asking : if the Church fathers had already ascertained WHO/WHAT is the beast?? Did they know??
I was not suggesting it was Islam, but from the material, evidence, and what I've seen, it doesn't look too promising for them.
I am not saying there is no suffering today; I am simply saying we can't say for sure that this is as bad as it is going to get.
As far as "The beast" goes, I couldn't tell you. Revelation is so deep and complex, that's why there are dozens of books out there by church fathers concerning single chapters of it.
Although I do agree with minagir that what is going on today does not seem to be the suffering that Christ described. Many of the early Christians suffered just as much, if not more, than the ones who are suffering today (i.e, Diocletian's reign). The suffering that Christ described seems like it should be more easily distinguishable ("For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" -Matthew 24:21).
I am not saying there is no suffering today; I am simply saying we can't say for sure that this is as bad as it is going to get.
As far as "The beast" goes, I couldn't tell you. Revelation is so deep and complex, that's why there are dozens of books out there by church fathers concerning single chapters of it.
Yes, maybe it will get worse in the future?
Are we allowed to predict who the anti-Christ is?? At the very least?? Or try to figure it out???
We do not know who the anti-Christ is. This is the position of the Church.
None of us should say, 'the Bible means this' unless we have learned from the Fathers. There is an early commentary on Revelation by Oecumenius. It is mostly online and I have already mentioned it in this thread I think.
I recommend that those interested in Revelation should read that first.
Asking who the anti-Christ is and then making judgements about people is not the same as asking how a spiritual verse should be understood. We are not to judge others.
Father Peter
The conclusion I have come to is that since he brings all nations under his authority and he sits in the temple to proclaim himself God, the abomination of desolation, there needs to be some things in place for him to do so without being rejected by the majority. St. Paul tells us that the mystery of lawlessness was at work already in his time and that the falling away must come first, before the antichrist is revealed. This lawlessness does not necessarily mean that it will be total anarchy but a law contrary to the law of God, as well as lawlessness amongst all religions, especially Christianity.
This will enable him to take hold rather easily with little resistance. The jews will be deceived because they are waiting for their messiah, and a worldly one at that. The muslims believe that Christ comes to judge everyone, therefore they will think that it is He who came to judge all. Some protestants will believe this is the rapture and some will believe that is is the 1,000 year reign. Because of the confusion many people will just be completely dumbfounded and believe in the antichrist for multiple reasons and not necessarily the ones above.
This is why I am opposed to this new age "we all worship the same God" belief, because that is the exact mentality the antichrist will play off of, amongst other things. I would not be surprised if he actually says something to this effect, that he is God and that all religions worship him in their own way and that they are all correct. I cannot count the number of people I run into who believe this, even some of the most pious people.
Please remember these are my opinions based one extensive research, I do not expect anyone to grasp ahold of them but atleast take them into consideration. What we must remember is that the Gospel of the Apocalypse is unique in that it is constantly revealing its secrets to us and is in need of constant interpretation based on the work of those before us. We do not know who the antichrist is, but by his attributes we will know him when he comes.
The problems we face are square in our face and have nothing to do with trying to interpret Revelation. This has never been a major concern of the Church.
There are many passages in Revelation which are very clear, such as the messages to the Churches. Such as the hope that despite all that will happen good will prevail and God will be Lord over all.
For most Christians it is entirely irrelevant who the anti-Christ is and when he might come. The martyrs of the Church bore witness in the most difficult circumstances and kept the faith. The Church has faced countless demonic opponents over the millenia and has been preserved.
If we consider that the Church faces the temptations of laziness, worldliness, power and pride, ignorance and heresy, then it does not seem to me to be of value to try and work our who the anti-Christ is. There are plenty of things that obviously need to be done in any case. When Stalin was trying to extinguish the Church there were many who wondered if he was the anti-Christ, but the message of Revelation is not geared up for such curiosity. It is rather a message of hope for those in such circumstances.
When I was a Protestant everyone was interested in these questions, but no-one knew much about holiness and the spiritual life. I am concerned that an interest in these questions derives from the Protestant influence in the West. I am not saying that this is always the case, but there is a reason why we do not read the Revelation in Church all year. There is a reason why few of the Fathers have written about Revelation in detail.
We do not need to know about the anti-Christ, the spirit of anti-Christ is always in the world. We do need to ask whether the Church is prepared for the trials which we are called to face now, and whether we are living the Christian life to the greatest extent. Whether there is a thousand years of the world to go, or just a thousand minutes, our own responsibilities and callings are not one iota different. Whether we face Stalin or the 'anti-Christ' our responsibilities and callings are no different.
This is why I personally think that it is better to consider our own salvation than the speculative questions that often arise in regard to prophecy in the Bible. It is better to consider the health of the Church than become excited (as I was when I was a Protestant) think that the end is near. Our own end is the one we need to be bothered about, and for sure that will take place in just a few decades time for each one of us.
Father Peter
My personal observation of our church tells me many things. Protestantism creeping in through the back door, the inability to use on language in church is pushing people away, the perceived infallibility of our leaders, etc. Again this is my opinion, I value yours very much and I dont want to say that you are completely wrong and I am completely right, or that I am right at all. I hope you forgive me if I have offended you, this was not meant as an attack or anything of the sort, just my view of what is going on.
My own Protestant tradition was deeply obsessed with these things, and held conferences from the 1820's onwards to decide what it all meant. They even separated from those who interpreted these un-interpretable things differently. But essentially ALL groups who have gone into these things have ALWAYS been wrong. I myself was convinced that the end would come in the 1980's. But it didn't.
I also do not think that these times are any different to any other. The only threat that is faced from Protestant theology is due to our own laziness and lack of discipline. There is nothing worse in modern Protestant heresies than those of the past. The Russian Church was almost eliminated, nothing that will happen in the future could be worse. Indeed in Albania it WAS wiped out entirely. The Church of Carthage is no more, nor that of Libya, nor that of Nubia. All have been eliminated by the Islamic invasion - but this was not the end either. Was Justinian the anti-Christ when he tried to wipe out the Church? or Hitler? or Genghis Khan?
The enemies we face in the West are internal, they are our own laziness and lack of discipline. The enemies faced in the East are the same as have been faced for 1000 years.
Personally I think there is hope for a great renewal of faith in the UK. 71% still want to identify themselves as Christian. They could easily say they were agnostic or atheist. The Church of England looks as if it is collapsing, and a vigorous Catholicism would be good, in my opinion, for my country and open many possibilities for Orthodoxy.
But is Orthodoxy ready? I was very glad indeed to have about 30 people at the first Orthodox Education Day, and we considered it a success. But why only 30 and not 300? I am very glad indeed that the Coptic Evangelism Fellowship of North America is planning a mission to Bolivia, but why do we not seem geared up in the UK for serious and pan-Orthodox mission to British people? The problems we face in these days are not down to the anti-Christ, they are down to us. Pointing at Protestants as the problem just seems plain wrong to me. We should be such witnesses to the faith that Protestants are joining us in great numbers, rather than us seeing our own people leaving and joining Protestant groups. This is not the anti-Christ at work, but our communities failing to inspire, educate and discipline our members. Where is the great cry of prayer rising up for our countries and that the Lord would send His Holy Spirit upon our land? In my opinion if there are problems in our societies it is often and usually because the Church has failed to be the Church. But it is easier to blame others, even the Devil.
When he comes maybe I will blame the anti-Christ for my problems. But I don't believe that my problems are anything other than caused by me.
This is not a criticism of you, Ioannes, though I do disagree with your view of the importance and understanding of Revelation.
Father Peter
You are not asking questions anymore I think, but making rather sweeping accusations that the Fathers do not support.
We do not know who the anti-Christ is. This is the position of the Church.
None of us should say, 'the Bible means this' unless we have learned from the Fathers. There is an early commentary on Revelation by Oecumenius. It is mostly online and I have already mentioned it in this thread I think.
I recommend that those interested in Revelation should read that first.
Asking who the anti-Christ is and then making judgements about people is not the same as asking how a spiritual verse should be understood. We are not to judge others.
Father Peter
I see your point.
lol...
I got carried away. First it started out as a question, and then it sort of got more or less as a certainty.
You are right, no one is sure who the anti-Christ is... are we? Perhaps he or she hasn't even arrived yet.
I take it that you are opposed to Churches who talk about the Rapture etc then?
Again I am nobody but I feel this is my greatest criticism of the clergy.
I do not really agree with any such speculation. When the disciples asked our Lord about whether or not St John would remain until the end of things he warned them,
John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
I think this is the best advice. We know what we need to do each day. We know what problems our Church faces. Let us deal with those.
Father Peter
Why does the Bible contain such ambiguity in the first place? Why would God reveal these things to St. John, only for us to read it almost 2000 years later, still without much of clue as to what it all really means? It was placed for us to read, yet we have no clear understanding of it. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
Precisely!
That's even how this thread started.
Why then should we worry about the parts we do not?
Do we understand how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?
I know that I live out so little of what I do know that seeking after greater knowledge of things I do not need to know is a temptation, and not a means of grace.
How does knowing anything about the anti-Christ help us today to live a life of holiness, faithfulness, humility and devotion? I don't think I think that it does.
Father Peter