[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9836.msg120583#msg120583 date=1286831799] Do we live out the portions of the Scripture we do understand?
Why then should we worry about the parts we do not?
Do we understand how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?
I know that I live out so little of what I do know that seeking after greater knowledge of things I do not need to know is a temptation, and not a means of grace.
How does knowing anything about the anti-Christ help us today to live a life of holiness, faithfulness, humility and devotion? I don't think I think that it does.
Father Peter
Again this is my major criticism of much of our clergy. Christ tells us to watch, and there is a reason. Even in His parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins, those who did not practice the Orthodox spiritual life AND did not watch, were not allowed into the wedding. The reason we need to know these things or rather watch is to make sure we are not deceived now or when the time comes, which I do believe is now. As I said several times already The Gospel of the Apocalypse constantly reveals its secrets with each passing day, it is canonized for a reason.
I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying because I possibly am not being clear. I do not think we need to sit and concentrate on the name of the antichrist, rather the conditions that bring about his being revealed, his attributes, the signs, etc. Otherwise why would we be told to watch if it did not matter? I am not saying we need to delve into things we do not know, as the early church fathers clearly state that many of these things could not be known in their time, many can be known in ours. But many of our leaders do not believe the apostasy has even happened yet, even though this contradicts the words of St. Paul.
I think I will remove myself from this thread, not out of anger. I just do not want this to escalate to a place it does not need to be.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9836.msg120586#msg120586 date=1286833074] [quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9836.msg120583#msg120583 date=1286831799] Do we live out the portions of the Scripture we do understand?
Why then should we worry about the parts we do not?
Do we understand how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?
I know that I live out so little of what I do know that seeking after greater knowledge of things I do not need to know is a temptation, and not a means of grace.
How does knowing anything about the anti-Christ help us today to live a life of holiness, faithfulness, humility and devotion? I don't think I think that it does.
Father Peter
Again this is my major criticism of much of our clergy. Christ tells us to watch, and there is a reason. Even in His parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins, those who did not practice the Orthodox spiritual life AND did not watch, were not allowed into the wedding. The reason we need to know these things or rather watch is to make sure we are not deceived now or when the time comes, which I do believe is now. As I said several times already The Gospel of the Apocalypse constantly reveals its secrets with each passing day, it is canonized for a reason.
I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying because I possibly am not being clear. I do not think we need to sit and concentrate on the name of the antichrist, rather the conditions that bring about his being revealed, his attributes, the signs, etc. Otherwise why would we be told to watch if it did not matter? I am not saying we need to delve into things we do not know, as the early church fathers clearly state that many of these things could not be known in their time, many can be known in ours. But many of our leaders do not believe the apostasy has even happened yet, even though this contradicts the words of St. Paul.
I think I will remove myself from this thread, not out of anger. I just do not want this to escalate to a place it does not need to be.
That's an excellent point Ioannes,
Christ does tell us to watch, and be careful. The jews had prophesies for their times that were fulfilled when Christ was born, crucified and rose from the dead.
The prophesies for our times is in Revelations. I just don't understand why Fr. Peter is telling us not to be concerned about what it means, as we should be watchful.
When Simeon said: "Let your servant department in peace, for my eyes have seen your salvation" - why didnt he say to himself: "How can I be so sure that this is the Christ? Let's not misinterpret the obvious?"
i agree with this excellent post from father peter:
"With respect, I do not think that we need to worry about this at all.
The problems we face are square in our face and have nothing to do with trying to interpret Revelation. This has never been a major concern of the Church.
There are many passages in Revelation which are very clear, such as the messages to the Churches. Such as the hope that despite all that will happen good will prevail and God will be Lord over all.
For most Christians it is entirely irrelevant who the anti-Christ is and when he might come. The martyrs of the Church bore witness in the most difficult circumstances and kept the faith. The Church has faced countless demonic opponents over the millenia and has been preserved.
If we consider that the Church faces the temptations of laziness, worldliness, power and pride, ignorance and heresy, then it does not seem to me to be of value to try and work our who the anti-Christ is. There are plenty of things that obviously need to be done in any case. When Stalin was trying to extinguish the Church there were many who wondered if he was the anti-Christ, but the message of Revelation is not geared up for such curiosity. It is rather a message of hope for those in such circumstances.
When I was a Protestant everyone was interested in these questions, but no-one knew much about holiness and the spiritual life. I am concerned that an interest in these questions derives from the Protestant influence in the West. I am not saying that this is always the case, but there is a reason why we do not read the Revelation in Church all year. There is a reason why few of the Fathers have written about Revelation in detail.
We do not need to know about the anti-Christ, the spirit of anti-Christ is always in the world. We do need to ask whether the Church is prepared for the trials which we are called to face now, and whether we are living the Christian life to the greatest extent. Whether there is a thousand years of the world to go, or just a thousand minutes, our own responsibilities and callings are not one iota different. Whether we face Stalin or the 'anti-Christ' our responsibilities and callings are no different.
This is why I personally think that it is better to consider our own salvation than the speculative questions that often arise in regard to prophecy in the Bible. It is better to consider the health of the Church than become excited (as I was when I was a Protestant) think that the end is near. Our own end is the one we need to be bothered about, and for sure that will take place in just a few decades time for each one of us.
Father Peter"
the book of revelation, i think, is to give us a rough guide about the end and to reassure us that we will be saved through the sacrifice and glorious resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. the church fathers were surely inspired when they decided to pay attention to the principle of revelation (be prepared and look after your own salvation) rather than to working out numbers and times.
Is anyone allowed to read the Bible and ask a question like "who is the anti-Christ?" when the Bible clearly talks about it and even gives us clues??
You could go off and say "Focus on yourself and leave the anti-Christ alone".. yeah, OK.. but after focusing on myself, and praying, fasting reading the Bible and singing hymns and flogging myself with a chain over my sins, my mind tends to think about other stuff - like politics, revelations and information technology.
Is a person allowed to have ANY intellectual or thought-filled dialogue outside the scope of focusing on his/her own sins with you or Father Peter!???
OK.. I focused on my sins, I repented for my sins, I read the Bible... now i've done all that, AM I NOW in a position to ask about the anti-Christ!?????!!!
Darn!!!
And I'm wondering why Coptic Christians are leaving the CoC to go to the Evangelical... there's your answer!!!!!!!
Before you post an answer - I'm not DYING to know who the Anti-Christ is, but your way Fr. Peter, and Mabsoota is as if we are NOT allowed to even ask questions like this...
That annoys me!!!
And you respond with a very infuriating answer: "FOCUS ON YOURSELF!"
Whats the point in the Bible then giving us the book of Revelations for???
St. John Chrysostom, in his homilies on 2 Thess. tells us to be aware of these things so we do not become deceived, as opposed to just write them off any way possible. I am not sure we can know who exactly he is until he is here and has been revealed. St John Climacus teaches that the number 8 indicated eternal life, and in Greek Christs name equals "888". The number 7 indicates the temporal life and 6 of course is inferior to 7 indicating that the beast is not only temporal but totally incomplete.
I get criticized for speaking on how these times give us the indications that the time is near. As St. Paul tells us that the mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) was at work in his time, it shows that satan began conditioning the world's people very early in the Christian churches history. This is a slow process so that we do not see the actual change taking place. This lawlessness is not in the sense of no order, but of God's natural, moral, and ethical laws. All of these will be replaced with new natural, moral, and ethical laws, which we can already see. For instance I hear many people, including fellow Orthodox, state that "we all worship the same God." This mentality is just part of the conditioning. The antichrist must be accepted by all religions, or the majority of the people in all religions, as God, therefore this mentality is crucial.
I would continue but I am assuming the more I continue the worse the criticism.
certainly we can ask, but there isn't a good answer yet. the anti-Christ might even be a system or government, not necessarily a person.
many people who thought that they alone have worked out who the anti-Christ is have gone on to make crazy claims like 'the world will end in 1984' and also got stuck in other wrong predictions.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9836.msg120794#msg120794 date=1287136983] certainly we can ask, but there isn't a good answer yet. the anti-Christ might even be a system or government, not necessarily a person.
many people who thought that they alone have worked out who the anti-Christ is have gone on to make crazy claims like 'the world will end in 1984' and also got stuck in other wrong predictions.
Thanks mabsoota.
I agree entirely that making "claims" is not wise and I already thanked Fr. Peter for drawing this to my attention.
But there is a huge difference between understanding who or what the beast is, and trying to figure out when the end of the world is.
The Bible, on the one hand, tells us "he who has ears, let him hear", and yet informs us that "no one knows the day or time Christ will come"; and as Ioannes pointed out - we should be able aware of what is going around us and discern these events.
What is the point of God giving us revelations which are essentially prophesies if we ignore them and do not discern them. Why even when Christ was on the cross, crucified, he reminded everyone of the prophesies said about Him from the old testament (Eloi, Eloi, lama sabakhtani - which is Psalm 21 - if I'm not mistaken).
If we are able to discern what the Book of Revelations tells, then I see no fault with that.
If it is wrong to try and understand who the "beast" or the 666 beast is in the Book of Revelations, then why does the Church read this chapter every year on Bright Saturday? What's the point of that?
Fr. Peter and Mabsoota are right. We need to know where the line is, what we can know and what we cannot. Even St. Andrew of Caesarea made this clear, that many of these things could not be known until the time drew closer. Working out the name should not be done unless the figure of the antichrist fits the description in the scriptures, by then it might not even matter.
What we do need to do is watch for the signs of the time, which are much easier to know and understand. If you want to know the beast the early fathers speak of this, mostly St. Hippolytus. The beast is the opposite of Christ or as St. Augustine calls him "The ape of Christ" because as a monkey mimics, so too does the antichrist mimic Christ and what He has done. Christ was born of a pure virgin, the beast will be born of a whore. Christ was a jew born out of the tribe of Judah, and the beast also is a jew born out of the tribe of Dan. He will be the "messiah" the Jews have been waiting for. They rejected Christ because they wanted a worldly king to free them from Roman persecution, this "messiah" will be a political figure who will rule the nations with an iron fist.
Here is a prophecy fulfilled in Apoc. 8:10-11 "Then the third angel sounded, and there a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water; and the name of the star is Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood; and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter." Wormwood is a bitter herb, it can be ingested to kill parasites, and it also stimulates the digestive system. But too much and it becomes poison.
In Russa there is a place in which this bitter plant grows abundantly, its name is Chernobyl. The city is named after the Ukrainian word for mugwort or wormwood (Artemisia vulgaris), which is "chornobyl". The word is a combination of the words chornyi (чорний, black) and byllia (билля, grass blades or stalks), hence it literally means black grass or black stalks. That may signify burnt grass, perhaps prior to cultivation. If anyone here remembers the nuclear power plant disaster that happened in the 1980's in which the explosion in Chernobyl had made hundreds of thousands of miles of land inhabitable, and even today the effects are felt. Many children are born deformed and many people still get sick. This is the third trumpet. The time is near.
Comments
Do we live out the portions of the Scripture we do understand?
Why then should we worry about the parts we do not?
Do we understand how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?
I know that I live out so little of what I do know that seeking after greater knowledge of things I do not need to know is a temptation, and not a means of grace.
How does knowing anything about the anti-Christ help us today to live a life of holiness, faithfulness, humility and devotion? I don't think I think that it does.
Father Peter
Again this is my major criticism of much of our clergy. Christ tells us to watch, and there is a reason. Even in His parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins, those who did not practice the Orthodox spiritual life AND did not watch, were not allowed into the wedding. The reason we need to know these things or rather watch is to make sure we are not deceived now or when the time comes, which I do believe is now. As I said several times already The Gospel of the Apocalypse constantly reveals its secrets with each passing day, it is canonized for a reason.
I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying because I possibly am not being clear. I do not think we need to sit and concentrate on the name of the antichrist, rather the conditions that bring about his being revealed, his attributes, the signs, etc. Otherwise why would we be told to watch if it did not matter? I am not saying we need to delve into things we do not know, as the early church fathers clearly state that many of these things could not be known in their time, many can be known in ours. But many of our leaders do not believe the apostasy has even happened yet, even though this contradicts the words of St. Paul.
I think I will remove myself from this thread, not out of anger. I just do not want this to escalate to a place it does not need to be.
[quote author=peterfarrington link=topic=9836.msg120583#msg120583 date=1286831799]
Do we live out the portions of the Scripture we do understand?
Why then should we worry about the parts we do not?
Do we understand how the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ?
I know that I live out so little of what I do know that seeking after greater knowledge of things I do not need to know is a temptation, and not a means of grace.
How does knowing anything about the anti-Christ help us today to live a life of holiness, faithfulness, humility and devotion? I don't think I think that it does.
Father Peter
Again this is my major criticism of much of our clergy. Christ tells us to watch, and there is a reason. Even in His parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins, those who did not practice the Orthodox spiritual life AND did not watch, were not allowed into the wedding. The reason we need to know these things or rather watch is to make sure we are not deceived now or when the time comes, which I do believe is now. As I said several times already The Gospel of the Apocalypse constantly reveals its secrets with each passing day, it is canonized for a reason.
I am not sure you are understanding what I am saying because I possibly am not being clear. I do not think we need to sit and concentrate on the name of the antichrist, rather the conditions that bring about his being revealed, his attributes, the signs, etc. Otherwise why would we be told to watch if it did not matter? I am not saying we need to delve into things we do not know, as the early church fathers clearly state that many of these things could not be known in their time, many can be known in ours. But many of our leaders do not believe the apostasy has even happened yet, even though this contradicts the words of St. Paul.
I think I will remove myself from this thread, not out of anger. I just do not want this to escalate to a place it does not need to be.
That's an excellent point Ioannes,
Christ does tell us to watch, and be careful. The jews had prophesies for their times that were fulfilled when Christ was born, crucified and rose from the dead.
The prophesies for our times is in Revelations. I just don't understand why Fr. Peter is telling us not to be concerned about what it means, as we should be watchful.
When Simeon said: "Let your servant department in peace, for my eyes have seen your salvation" - why didnt he say to himself: "How can I be so sure that this is the Christ? Let's not misinterpret the obvious?"
"With respect, I do not think that we need to worry about this at all.
The problems we face are square in our face and have nothing to do with trying to interpret Revelation. This has never been a major concern of the Church.
There are many passages in Revelation which are very clear, such as the messages to the Churches. Such as the hope that despite all that will happen good will prevail and God will be Lord over all.
For most Christians it is entirely irrelevant who the anti-Christ is and when he might come. The martyrs of the Church bore witness in the most difficult circumstances and kept the faith. The Church has faced countless demonic opponents over the millenia and has been preserved.
If we consider that the Church faces the temptations of laziness, worldliness, power and pride, ignorance and heresy, then it does not seem to me to be of value to try and work our who the anti-Christ is. There are plenty of things that obviously need to be done in any case. When Stalin was trying to extinguish the Church there were many who wondered if he was the anti-Christ, but the message of Revelation is not geared up for such curiosity. It is rather a message of hope for those in such circumstances.
When I was a Protestant everyone was interested in these questions, but no-one knew much about holiness and the spiritual life. I am concerned that an interest in these questions derives from the Protestant influence in the West. I am not saying that this is always the case, but there is a reason why we do not read the Revelation in Church all year. There is a reason why few of the Fathers have written about Revelation in detail.
We do not need to know about the anti-Christ, the spirit of anti-Christ is always in the world. We do need to ask whether the Church is prepared for the trials which we are called to face now, and whether we are living the Christian life to the greatest extent. Whether there is a thousand years of the world to go, or just a thousand minutes, our own responsibilities and callings are not one iota different. Whether we face Stalin or the 'anti-Christ' our responsibilities and callings are no different.
This is why I personally think that it is better to consider our own salvation than the speculative questions that often arise in regard to prophecy in the Bible. It is better to consider the health of the Church than become excited (as I was when I was a Protestant) think that the end is near. Our own end is the one we need to be bothered about, and for sure that will take place in just a few decades time for each one of us.
Father Peter"
the book of revelation, i think, is to give us a rough guide about the end and to reassure us that we will be saved through the sacrifice and glorious resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. the church fathers were surely inspired when they decided to pay attention to the principle of revelation (be prepared and look after your own salvation) rather than to working out numbers and times.
You could go off and say "Focus on yourself and leave the anti-Christ alone".. yeah, OK.. but after focusing on myself, and praying, fasting reading the Bible and singing hymns and flogging myself with a chain over my sins, my mind tends to think about other stuff - like politics, revelations and information technology.
Is a person allowed to have ANY intellectual or thought-filled dialogue outside the scope of focusing on his/her own sins with you or Father Peter!???
OK.. I focused on my sins, I repented for my sins, I read the Bible... now i've done all that, AM I NOW in a position to ask about the anti-Christ!?????!!!
Darn!!!
And I'm wondering why Coptic Christians are leaving the CoC to go to the Evangelical... there's your answer!!!!!!!
Before you post an answer - I'm not DYING to know who the Anti-Christ is, but your way Fr. Peter, and Mabsoota is as if we are NOT allowed to even ask questions like this...
That annoys me!!!
And you respond with a very infuriating answer: "FOCUS ON YOURSELF!"
Whats the point in the Bible then giving us the book of Revelations for???
I get criticized for speaking on how these times give us the indications that the time is near. As St. Paul tells us that the mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) was at work in his time, it shows that satan began conditioning the world's people very early in the Christian churches history. This is a slow process so that we do not see the actual change taking place. This lawlessness is not in the sense of no order, but of God's natural, moral, and ethical laws. All of these will be replaced with new natural, moral, and ethical laws, which we can already see. For instance I hear many people, including fellow Orthodox, state that "we all worship the same God." This mentality is just part of the conditioning. The antichrist must be accepted by all religions, or the majority of the people in all religions, as God, therefore this mentality is crucial.
I would continue but I am assuming the more I continue the worse the criticism.
The end is now, pray.
the anti-Christ might even be a system or government, not necessarily a person.
many people who thought that they alone have worked out who the anti-Christ is have gone on to make crazy claims like 'the world will end in 1984' and also got stuck in other wrong predictions.
certainly we can ask, but there isn't a good answer yet.
the anti-Christ might even be a system or government, not necessarily a person.
many people who thought that they alone have worked out who the anti-Christ is have gone on to make crazy claims like 'the world will end in 1984' and also got stuck in other wrong predictions.
Thanks mabsoota.
I agree entirely that making "claims" is not wise and I already thanked Fr. Peter for drawing this to my attention.
But there is a huge difference between understanding who or what the beast is, and trying to figure out when the end of the world is.
The Bible, on the one hand, tells us "he who has ears, let him hear", and yet informs us that "no one knows the day or time Christ will come"; and as Ioannes pointed out - we should be able aware of what is going around us and discern these events.
What is the point of God giving us revelations which are essentially prophesies if we ignore them and do not discern them. Why even when Christ was on the cross, crucified, he reminded everyone of the prophesies said about Him from the old testament (Eloi, Eloi, lama sabakhtani - which is Psalm 21 - if I'm not mistaken).
If we are able to discern what the Book of Revelations tells, then I see no fault with that.
If it is wrong to try and understand who the "beast" or the 666 beast is in the Book of Revelations, then why does the Church read this chapter every year on Bright Saturday? What's the point of that?
What we do need to do is watch for the signs of the time, which are much easier to know and understand. If you want to know the beast the early fathers speak of this, mostly St. Hippolytus. The beast is the opposite of Christ or as St. Augustine calls him "The ape of Christ" because as a monkey mimics, so too does the antichrist mimic Christ and what He has done. Christ was born of a pure virgin, the beast will be born of a whore. Christ was a jew born out of the tribe of Judah, and the beast also is a jew born out of the tribe of Dan. He will be the "messiah" the Jews have been waiting for. They rejected Christ because they wanted a worldly king to free them from Roman persecution, this "messiah" will be a political figure who will rule the nations with an iron fist.
Here is a prophecy fulfilled in Apoc. 8:10-11 "Then the third angel sounded, and there a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water; and the name of the star is Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood; and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter." Wormwood is a bitter herb, it can be ingested to kill parasites, and it also stimulates the digestive system. But too much and it becomes poison.
In Russa there is a place in which this bitter plant grows abundantly, its name is Chernobyl. The city is named after the Ukrainian word for mugwort or wormwood (Artemisia vulgaris), which is "chornobyl". The word is a combination of the words chornyi (чорний, black) and byllia (билля, grass blades or stalks), hence it literally means black grass or black stalks. That may signify burnt grass, perhaps prior to cultivation. If anyone here remembers the nuclear power plant disaster that happened in the 1980's in which the explosion in Chernobyl had made hundreds of thousands of miles of land inhabitable, and even today the effects are felt. Many children are born deformed and many people still get sick. This is the third trumpet. The time is near.