Hello, Could someone kindly tell me:
If a coptic christian is living in a country where there are no Coptic Churches, is he or she allowed to have communion in the Catholic Church, only for the period when they are working in that country?
Please also bear in mind, when answering, that it may be too costly or impractical for this person to travel to a place where there is a Coptic Church on a regular basis; it may even be impractical on any basis also.
What is their position in front of the Church? Does the CoC consider them ex-communicated? Are they heretics? If their faith is just Orthodox, and they "need" to have the Holy Communion, then is this allowed for such situations? The Catholics do accept us in their Church, but we do not acknowledge their baptism.
I think it is really dangerous to not have communion for a long period of time, and given that we do consider that the Body of Christ is in the Eucharist in the Catholic Church, then is this case permissible for a Coptic Christian?
The same for repentance. If a Coptic Christian lives in a place where he or she is not visited by any Coptic priest, can they confess to a Catholic Priest? Although our Churches are divided, do we still acknowledge their priesthood?
Thanks
Comments
I think I agree with minagir. You're bound to get alot of wrong answers on this forum. Since this is a question of church cannon you should find and contact the most reliable priest available to you, or if possible, write to the local bishop.
I'm guessing you live in PA. The only diocese that I'm aware of covering the North-East is the archdiocese of North America. the link is http://www.nacopts.org/.
Hope this is helpful,
George
However this shouldn’t be done for convenience. I know a lot of dedicated copts who drive more than an hour every Sunday just to commune at an Oriental Orthodox church while there are many Catholic Churches nearby. If one doesn’t have an Oriental Orthodox Church besting to do in my opinion would be to ask permission to commune at other churches both from an Oriental priest and the priest from the other church.
In Christ
Theopilus
I'm guessing you live in PA. The only diocese that I'm aware of covering the North-East is the archdiocese of North America. the link is http://www.nacopts.org/.
I would habrti disagree if the are that class. I don't think anyone living the USA need to do this. Thee are enough churches around.
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7598.msg99788#msg99788 date=1233084045]
I'm guessing you live in PA. The only diocese that I'm aware of covering the North-East is the archdiocese of North America. the link is http://www.nacopts.org/.
I would habrti disagree if the are that class. I don't think anyone living the USA need to do this. Thee are enough churches around.
absolutely right, no one in the U.S unless in very special circumstances, in which you should talk to a priest, preferably Bishop, about doing that. I think permission should only be given by a bishop, not a priest, because the matter is a lot more serious than people make it seem.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7598.msg99790#msg99790 date=1233085064]
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7598.msg99788#msg99788 date=1233084045]
I'm guessing you live in PA. The only diocese that I'm aware of covering the North-East is the archdiocese of North America. the link is http://www.nacopts.org/.
I would habrti disagree if the are that class. I don't think anyone living the USA need to do this. Thee are enough churches around.
absolutely right, no one in the U.S unless in very special circumstances, in which you should talk to a priest, preferably Bishop, about doing that. I think permission should only be given by a bishop, not a priest, because the matter is a lot more serious than people make it seem.
Well guys, I'm not in the USA - but you know, this is a generic topic. I go (thank God!) to a Coptic Orthodox Church, that I wouldnt change for the world. That's me personally.
Well, I would change it, but only for another one that had a better central heating system. That's about it!
But I am asking "generally". Therefore, from Hisservent, could I assume from what you are saying that the door is open to have communion in the Catholic Church, but this requires approval from a Bishop?
So, the fact that it requires approval from a Bishop, means that the Bishop, if he approves it, is admitting that the CoC believes that the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church is the real deal. You agree?
I've heard cases where priests have told their flock to have communion at the RC because there were no Coptic Churches around. Are these priests at fault?
The reason why I am asking was because I was living in Turkey for sometime, and - well , as you know, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate is based in Istanbul. But they would not let anyone non-Chalcedonian partake of the Communion.
There are bishops and priests who will not allow this, but many bishops and priests do allow it. Indeed since our Holy Synod has agreed that the Eastern Orthodox have preserved our Orthodox Faith, even in separation from us, then it seems entirely reasonable for laity even if not for clergy.
I think that the case of the Roman Catholic Church is different because of the significant doctrinal difference. It is easier to imagine an isolated and devout Roman Catholic being allowed to receive communion at an Oriental Orthodox altar, than it is to imagine it to be appropriate for an Oriental Orthodox to receive communion at a Roman Catholic altar. There are a variety of views towards the Roman Catholic Church and some see the doctrinal differences as being less significant than the common Apostolic Faith which has been preserved.
The Coptic Orthodox Church seems to take a very negative line towards the Roman Catholic Church, which I think relates especially to the more recent history of the Roman Catholic Church engaging in mission in Egypt. Certainly in the 5th/6th centuries a Roman Christian would have been treated the same as a Greek one, and our Fathers taught that our attitude towards the laity of these other communities should be very tolerant, since almost certainly the laity have a simple Orthodox faith in Christ and are not directly implicated in any theological controversy.
In Christ
Peter
When I am in Constantinopole (Istanbul, but I prefer greek name) to my Armenian Apostolic friend, He takes the Communion in Catholic Church, but before the Altar you are asking "Are you Christian" and "Do u belive in real presence" or "Are u a Catholic".
For Catholics is forbidden to partake of Communion in non-catholic Church but it is not sin if you can't visit Catholic Church and you will go to Orthodox (it has to be Church with apostolic succesion and all 7 sacramenst) absolutelly it forbidden go to protestant church and parteke in thier "supper".
I hope I help:)
I think that the case of the Roman Catholic Church is different because of the significant doctrinal difference. It is easier to imagine an isolated and devout Roman Catholic being allowed to receive communion at an Oriental Orthodox altar, than it is to imagine it to be appropriate for an Oriental Orthodox to receive communion at a Roman Catholic altar. There are a variety of views towards the Roman Catholic Church and some see the doctrinal differences as being less significant than the common Apostolic Faith which has been preserved.
Actually Peter, Roman Catholics welcome Orthodox members. The Catholic church encourages non-catholics to partake in the eucharist as long as they are Christians, believe Jesus Christ is their savior, and have the same views as Catholics due about the Eucharist. I may not be completly sure if the exact ruling applies to all Christian religious groups, but I do know of a particular cannon law:
"Members of the Orthodox churches and the Polish National Catholic Churches share a more intimate bond with us, however. They may receive the Eucharist when they ask for it and they are properly disposed (cf. Canon 844)."
The Orthodox church, however, does not allow any Roman Catholic to partake in communion nor do they encourage them to attend. (Please read below for further explaination)
For some time both sides did not allow the other, but the Catholic church has added a new doctrine to include other christians, specifically Orthodox, in order to help heal any dislike between the two religious groups. However, the Orthodox church, at least to the posting of the message, still do not encourage Catholics to partake in any Orthodox communion services.
You can read more about this at:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp
http://www.uscatholic.org/glad-you-asked/2008/11/can-a-non-catholic-receive-communion
If you were to walk into a Roman Catholic church, most if not all will include this new doctrine in the misslet, in which it states it encourages christians to partake in the Eucharist.
Here is what it says:
"We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us ‘that they may all be one’ (John 17:21).
I am not saying that a typical Orthodox priest would not allow a Catholic to enter the church or take communion, but when looking at the facts and looking at official Orthodox procedures, they generally do not allow it.
I am new here. I'd just like to add a few comments to this old thread (I chanced upon it when I was doing research on the I-net for something else)
1) The Common Declaration of HH Pope Shenoute and HH Pope Paul VI (of blessed memory) in 1973, explicitly asserted that the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church share the same Faith in the Seven Sacraments.
2) I am not exactly sure when the belief in the invalidity of Catholic baptism began (I suspect at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries in response to the novel practice of Catholics rebaptizing Coptic Orthodox who came into the Catholic Faith), but it was not always so in the Tradition of Coptic Orthodoxy. Up until the 17th century, it was the Coptic Orthodox Church who initiated efforts at reunion with the Catholic Church.
3) As regards the other Oriental Orthodox Churches: the Syriac Orthodox Church has an official limited intercommunion agreement with the Catholic Church in extenuating circumstances (i.e., when a church or priest of either one is not accessible or in cases of near-death); the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church have an official agreement on intermarriage that is much more comprehensive than the one between the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Alexandrian Patriarchate; the Armenian Apostolic Church accepts the validity of all the Catholic Sacraments, and allows intercommunion in extenuating circumstances (i.e., when a church or priest of either one is not accessible or in cases of near-death), and allows for intermarriage between Catholic and Armenians Apostolic Christians.
Blessings,
Marduk
The full explanation of whom may receive Holy Communion is on this website: http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp . I strongly recommend reading this. People who have not been Baptized or Confirmed in the Roman Catholic faith may NOT receive Holy Communion, no matter what their faith is.
Most sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church are reserved for Catholics. The only exemption I can think of is Matrimony, and even then, one of the couple must be a Roman Catholic. (And the non-Catholic must be a baptized Christian - non-baptized Christians may not receive any of the Sacraments.)
Canon 843.3 says...
Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the eastern Churches not in full communion with the catholic Church, if they spontaneously ask for them and are properly disposed. The same applies to members of other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid eastern Churches so far as the sacraments are concerned.
Therefore it is lawful for Roman Catholic priests to administer communion to Eastern Orthodox, as far as Roman Catholic canon law is concerned. But it would not be permissible for an Orthodox to receive communion in such circumstances.
Father Peter
But it would not be permissible for an Orthodox to receive communion in such circumstances.
Why would it not be permissible for an Orthodox Christian to receive communion in a situation where there are no Orthodox Churches available?
Thanks
It is a Christian community, but it is not Orthodox, it is heterodox.
If there are no Orthodox Churches around then it is permissible to receive fellowship and friendship among Roman Catholics, and I have many Roman Catholic friends. But the eucharist is not about fellowship and friendship, it is about an encounter with Christ. And we believe and teach that this encounter is only properly experienced for an Orthodox Christian in an Orthodox community.
Those teachings which are particular to the Roman Catholic communion mean that it is separated from the Church, and therefore, however much we might wish and work for things to be brought to reunion in truth, it is not the case right now. To receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church is to say that the differences don't matter. But the Church says that they do.
Father Peter
Because the Roman Catholic Church is not Orthodox.
It is a Christian community, but it is not Orthodox, it is heterodox.
If there are no Orthodox Churches around then it is permissible to receive fellowship and friendship among Roman Catholics, and I have many Roman Catholic friends. But the eucharist is not about fellowship and friendship, it is about an encounter with Christ. And we believe and teach that this encounter is only properly experienced for an Orthodox Christian in an Orthodox community.
Those teachings which are particular to the Roman Catholic communion mean that it is separated from the Church, and therefore, however much we might wish and work for things to be brought to reunion in truth, it is not the case right now. To receive communion in a Roman Catholic Church is to say that the differences don't matter. But the Church says that they do.
Father Peter
Thanks Fr. Peter.
Good response! (I like it when I get clear responses).
Please PLEASE don't take this as if I'm arguing.. on the contrary - I'm trying to ask questions to learn more.
Can you confirm that the CoC is CATEGORICALLY against Orthodox receiving Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic Church EVEN when there are no Orthodox Churches around at all???
Thanks
Yes it is categorically forbidden. It has been for a long time.
So what should a Coptic Christian do if he/she wishes to have Holy Communion and they are in a country where there are absolutely NO Coptic Orthodox Churches?
What does the CoC allow for such situations?
Thanks
If there is no Oriental Orthodox Church then it may be permitted, with the approval of a person's spiritual father and other authorities, to receive communion at an Eastern Orthodox Church.
There are no other possibilities.
If there is no Orthodox Church at all in a country - and there are very few countries where this is the case - then a person must try to be regular in the practice of their spiritual life, and with the advice of their spiritual father might perhaps attend a Roman Catholic or even possibly an Episcopal Church (depending on the country), but not receive communion.
Which country are you thinking of where there are no Orthodox communities at all?
I would like to place that as a joke in case the Plutonians and the Australians get upset.
What then?
Can you then go to the Catholic?? What if you don't understand Greek?
If you wish to receive communion and it is possible then I guess it does not matter if the Liturgy is served in another language. I would always try an Oriental Orthodox church. Then if the Eastern Orthodox would not commune an OO then that is their choice. It would be necessary to find a different Eastern Orthodox jurisidiction.
But it is never permissible to receive communion at a Roman Catholic Church.
It would be better to travel a couple of hundred miles once a month and stay overnight so as to be able to attend any Orthodox Church.
Father Peter
You cannot receive communion at a Catholic Church under any circumstances.
If you wish to receive communion and it is possible then I guess it does not matter if the Liturgy is served in another language. I would always try an Oriental Orthodox church. Then if the Eastern Orthodox would not commune an OO then that is their choice. It would be necessary to find a different Eastern Orthodox jurisidiction.
But it is never permissible to receive communion at a Roman Catholic Church.
It would be better to travel a couple of hundred miles once a month and stay overnight so as to be able to attend any Orthodox Church.
Father Peter
So what happens if you do in fact have Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic Church?
I know so many Coptic Christians that have had Holy Communion in the Catholic Church actually.
We were recently taught that this IS the Body of Christ on the Catholic Altar.
What happens to those Orthodox Christians who are Orthodox but have had Holy Communion in the Roman Catholic Church? Are they still saved?
How is that a sin? Why is it wrong?
I know an Armenian Orthodox family who attend the Coptic church only.. but that is a special case.
I also see a lot of ethiopians at this same church that these Armenians attend... but I have no clue why they still come to our church when I think there is an Ethiopian church here..
I also want to share what I was taught from the Catholic School I attended:
As a kid I used to receive Communion at school because that was what I was taught and I didn't know otherwise, and my parents let it be. All my Orthodox friends had communion also whether they were OO or EO.
Came High School I still just copied what the older Coptic friends did, which was still have communion at school. I then realised that what I was doing was not right, I mean, I knew all the differences of the Catholic Church and Coptic Church as a kid, from as little as primary school... Like those times in Kindergarten where they'd tell us that Adam and Even and the creation story was all a myth, I always remembered and knew that I was being taught in Sunday School to be correct.. I even remember that I ALWAYS used to point out the differences between our churches at school until the teachers would not know what to say 8) lol but then it got to the point where I figured it was not right from the Coptic Churches point of view when I went to church every Sunday and that it was not necessary to commune with Catholics. So I stopped having communion because I started to think it was very wrong, I even became uncomfortable to do so. I also remember in high school, all of us Coptic girls (all girls school) from all grades had a discussion about it... we all had communion with Catholics as kids, but some of us stopped and some of us continued... 1 girl asked her confession father (which was from my church, so I know the priest very very well) and he said that we can have Communion with the Catholics, well at school obviously, only if we respected the mass and believed that it was indeed the Body and Blood of Christ and pray and believe as we would in our Coptic Church and to also fast 9 hours before even though Catholics are required to fast only 1 hour before.
At school they said that anyone Orthodox can receive communion in the school masses or come up and receive a blessing by putting their right up diagonally across their chest. I think one reason they mentioned that if we were Orthodox that we can commune is because I remember about a good 40% of us were Orthodox (mainly greeks) and they felt they needed to cater for the whole school. I remember they said that even Muslims can have communion too at one stage. (there was only one muslim girl at school anyways). If anyone is from Australia here, they'd know that a LOT of Orthodox parents baptised their kids at Catholic Churches only to guarantee acceptance into Catholic Schools lol... I think this has stopped now tho (I hope so because it's like your messing with the Catholic Church and there's no respect!)
I just began not to feel comfortable having communion, or even receiving a blessing... In my last 2 years of high school I was so much more aware of our differences, I remember I was even upset at a lot of 'wrongs' I saw with the Catholic Church, even simple things like walking to the altar to have communion in shoes, or even seeing teachers sitting with one leg over the other and not showing respect.. It really hurt me at the time, I remember.
A lot of the Copts had communion, but I hope they knew what they were doing, hopefully showing the right respect anyways, and I am sure all of us Copts knew our differences and definitely none of us we're straying away anyways. I believe the reason why Copts continued having communion was the fact that we became so close to our school and being brought up and taught in catholic schools. On the other hand, my fellow EO friends had communion normal because they actually didn't know otherwise... and probably until this day they don't or won't.
Catholic schools are THE BEST nevertheless anyways! I hope I teach in Catholic schools in the future, I think I was raised better there than the Coptic School... everyone pray for me please.
LOL, well sorry for a very long post that just provides an example of Copts receiving Communion at Catholic churches... pretty useless huh? Please let me know if this adds or helps to the questions at hand...
Cheers
I've heard conflicting reports - both from "respected" sources within our Church.
Some say it is a "blessing", and some say that the CoC does acknowledge it as the real Body and Blood.
Is there anything from a Bishop available that can state the real view of the CoC?
Also, I'm aware that before (maybe 8 years ago, or more) that re-baptism was required for any Roman Catholic entering in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I now know as a fact (from several priests) that re-baptism is not required. What is asked of the new member is the following:
If they were NOT baptised by immersion, then this is then administered
if they were baptised by immersion, then they only need the delta - which is the Holy Chrism (or Mayroon) to be administered. That's it.
So, it means that the CoC does in fact recognize Catholic baptisms (if done correctly) - which means that it recognizes Catholic priesthood - which means that (IMHO) it MUST also recognize the sacraments that their priests follow.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be what I've seen so far.
Finally, what IS the view of any Coptic Orthodox Christian that does have Communion in the Catholic Church? What happens to that person?? Are they excommunicated or not?
I know for a fact that anyone Coptic Christian who does confess in the Roman Catholic Church - to a Catholic priest, has to not RE-confess the sins to a Coptic Priest, but has to just give the priest a rough summary of the confession afterwards.
Thanks
The whole thing is very odd. The bigger question is why you are considering receiving the sacraments in a non-Orthodox Church.
It is a grave issue and I believe it would normally result in a period of penitence.
None of this makes sense. Most Catholic baptisms are not performed by immersion and are therefore not considered valid by the Coptic Orthodox Church. A Catholic priest is therefore not considered baptised by the Coptic Orthodox and therefore is not considered an Orthodox priest. He cannot therefore conduct Orthodox sacraments. A person who is baptised by immersion by a priest who was not baptised by immersion would therefore not be considered baptised.
The whole thing is very odd. The bigger question is why you are considering receiving the sacraments in a non-Orthodox Church.
It is a grave issue and I believe it would normally result in a period of penitence.
Where did I say I was "considering it"?
I was just asking.
But as I said, I know for a FACT that there are Coptic Priests who have just given the Mayroon to someone who was Catholic before - it means that they still accepted his/her baptism. Perhaps it was not even by immersion - i'm not sure. All i know, as a fact, is that they were baptised in the RC and received the Holy Chrism in the CoC.
If it doesn't make sense to you, PM and take it up with the priest's who allowed it.
Is that OK!?
Let's keep this factual - Please!
What is the official view of the CoC on these issues.
Even though I know several priests who have accepted the Catholic Baptism and have given only the Holy Chrism, it doesn't mean the CoC officially agrees with that? Does it?
What IS the official position?
What is the official position concerning the Eucharist? Does the CoC believe that this IS the Holy Body and Blood?
Thanks