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Marrying a Muslim - Grounds for excommunication??
I just came across this online article from 2002 - http://hss.fullerton.edu/comparative/africa_articles_2002.htm#Pope Shenouda
It notes that:
'Pope Shenouda III said conversion to the Jehovah's Witness faith was a ground for divorce within his church. The only other ground for divorce is adultery.
The Coptic church allows people of other Christian denominations to intermarry, but disapproves of their divorce, which still can be achieved if taken to the courts.
Copts marrying Muslims, who make up most of Egypt's 68 million population, are also excommunicated.'
And I was wondering if it was true that a Copt who marries a Muslim will really be excommunicated? I was a little surprised because I didnt think it was such a big deal if, for example, a Coptic man married a Muslim woman (despite the fact it's very rare - however I do know a few mixed Muslim-Copt married couples). Like, of course ideally we should marry within our religion. But if we marry a Muslim is it true that we'll be excommunicated?
It notes that:
'Pope Shenouda III said conversion to the Jehovah's Witness faith was a ground for divorce within his church. The only other ground for divorce is adultery.
The Coptic church allows people of other Christian denominations to intermarry, but disapproves of their divorce, which still can be achieved if taken to the courts.
Copts marrying Muslims, who make up most of Egypt's 68 million population, are also excommunicated.'
And I was wondering if it was true that a Copt who marries a Muslim will really be excommunicated? I was a little surprised because I didnt think it was such a big deal if, for example, a Coptic man married a Muslim woman (despite the fact it's very rare - however I do know a few mixed Muslim-Copt married couples). Like, of course ideally we should marry within our religion. But if we marry a Muslim is it true that we'll be excommunicated?
Comments
2nd if A muslim Man marries a christian women she has to convert and thus she is not Christian and have chose to abandom her faith.
First of all Muslim women cant marry outside of Islam It is forbidden, Only Muslim Men can marry outside of Islam.
2nd if A muslim Man marries a christian women she has to convert and thus she is not Christian and have chose to abandom her faith.
Ok, I know that's what we say but in reality things dont work like that. There are Muslim women that have non-Muslim men (I know a few myself). I also know of Muslim men who have married Christian girls and the girls have remained Christians. So, my question is that if a Copt marries a Muslim (and the Copt keeps his/her religion as I know some who have) has Baba Shenouda really ordered for them to be excommunicated?
[quote author=Pharaoh714 link=topic=7707.msg100771#msg100771 date=1236251698]
First of all Muslim women cant marry outside of Islam It is forbidden, Only Muslim Men can marry outside of Islam.
2nd if A muslim Man marries a christian women she has to convert and thus she is not Christian and have chose to abandom her faith.
Ok, I know that's what we say but in reality things dont work like that. There are Muslim women that have non-Muslim men (I know a few myself). I also know of Muslim men who have married Christian girls and the girls have remained Christians. So, my question is that if a Copt marries a Muslim (and the Copt keeps his/her religion as I know some who have) has Baba Shenouda really ordered for them to be excommunicated?
A coptic christian excommunicates himself by marrying a catholic in a Catholic Church, so most likely if he marries a muslim, he is excommunicated. I think the reason is that you are constantly living in adultary. The Church does not recognise the marriage between a Christian and a Muslim. THe marriage didn't take place in a Coptic Church; and for that to happen, both have to be baptised Orthodox.
I mean, im not condoning that sort of thing, and there's no Muslim girl in the picture for me personally, but I was just a bit surprised when I read the article. All-in-all, I think Copts should marry other Copts, not because we are a superior religion but because it just makes sense.
many people think they know better than the directive in the Bible 'do not be yoked together with unbelievers'. i mean they believe the 'do not kill, do not steal' stuff but omit Jesus' words 'i am the way the truth and the life' and the Bible's teaching on life and marriage.
if this is really your faith, that you can just believe the parts that you agree with, then it is not my place to tell you what to believe. some people make up their own religions and i believe everyone should have the freedom to believe what they want. however, if you do not come to church and do not believe that taking communion is becoming closer to God, then i assume you don't mind being excommunicated, as you didn't really believe the Christian faith.
this is how some people who are leather-wearing hindus or beer-drinking muslims are happily married to 'Christians' who believe Jesus was a nice man but not God.
what i am saying is that i am in favour of freedom of belief, however it is entirely appropriate for the church (ours or any other) to define people who don't believe in Christianity as being outside of their group. so these people can come to our meetings and be our friends but they are not Christians.
if you are a Christian (i define this as belief in Jesus' death and ressurection and salvation from sin and in the trinity and the revealed words of God through the Bible) then why would you want to marry someone from a different religion?
i expect the answer is that their are many people who are genuinely trying to live as Christians but don't believe of some of it and don't understand much of it.
if this is you, then good news!
you have found the right website where you can learn more!
what i want to recommend is that you find out more about God, because when you do then you will know Jesus is the only way
Your brother in Christ
I wish I could offer answers, but at the moment all I can offer is sympathy since I'm experiencing something similar. I've been coptic since I was five, but because of a great deal of cultural bias that I've experienced over time (because I wasn't born Egyptian) I had alot of difficulty developing any real closeness with the other people in church. I avoided very close friendship outside of the church for a long time, but eventually my need for supportive friendship won out. Since my "support groups" (Psych 101 term) were outside of the church, it is only natural that I met my Fiancee' outside of the church.
One of the greatest things about the Coptic Church also makes things very difficult for people in our predicament; i.e. we take our faith much more seriously that most other congregations. This makes it essential for us to be open with our Father of Confession. It's been a very long time since I've been to confession (long story, not relevant here) and I've temporarily stopped serving because of that. I have a prospective Father of Confession, but one of the challanges I face is how to talk to him about my fiancee'. When I finally open dialog with Abouna, I intend to be open about my Fiancee', but I also intend to be clear that I refuse to betray her, nor will I push her to become Coptic. I'm sure you can see why I'm reluctant to have this conversation, just as I can see why you don't want to talk about your wife.
The thing is, what kind of faith are we practicing if we remove one of the key sacraments? Yet, at the same time, what kind of faith are we practicing if we have excommunication constantly hanging over our heads? There are alot of people saying alot of things that are very convenient for themselves, but it's not always so simple. Some might say we aren't serious about our faith. I, for one, have done a good deal of study and soul searching about my faith. (I had plenty of time in my teen years since I had no friends.) At one point in time (out of frustration with mot belonging) I was completely open to leaving the Church, so I started from scratch and reviewed all of the essential questions of faith to discover my own belief, (I believe in God, I believe in one God, I believe God is good and all-powerful, . . .) To make a very long story short, I found that (for me) every spiritual path lead me to Jesus, and more specifically I believe in the Christology of the Oriental Orthodox Church. I take this very seriously, but I wasn't prepared to be a hermit, so I developed friendships wherever I could. I had no religious requirements for my friends, only moral ones.
I'm not sure how similar your story is, but I'm pretty sure that (like me) you definitely would "mind" being excommunicated. Unfortunately, ignoring the problem is definitely not the answer.
George
i can see i came across too harsh and i am sorry.
what i meant to say is you should sort your spiritual life first, then its normal to want to marry someone who also follows Jesus. obviously if you got married while you were looking for answers outside the church then its also normal to tread carefully when sharing your new enthusiasm for Jesus with someone you already share your life with.
what i wanted to achieve by talking a bit tough was to warn single people, esp young ones of the dangers of slipping away from God in order to search for romantic love. because God's love is stronger and longer lasting than the romantic variety. my best friend from my youth married a non-Christian and i watched over the years as her commitment to God grew weaker and weaker and she lost her bubbly optimism. it really upset me to see this happen to her.
i do think there is a difference between marrying a non-Christian and marrying a Christian non-copt. i personally believe it should be ok to marry a Christian non-copt, although i recognise it may be complicated discussing it with abouna.
if someone is going to marry a non-Christian, i am sorry but i think it is not a good idea. marriage is difficult enough ;) without being pulled in two directions at once. i do however understand the need for friendship. until i was 11, i don't recall having friends, then no close friends till i was 14 (it was the girl i mentioned above, she lived in the next town and we saw each other about once a month). i also spent a lot of time thinking about my faith as a teenager and almost no time doing the 'normal' teenage things!
i think if you come to a time in your life when you are considering spending more time in the church and you are already married to a non-Christian then you should explain why your faith is important and you want to go to church etc and also make a special effort to do things with your spouse that you enjoy together. servant of God 30, you could use praise of your wife's devotion to explain that you too also want to be more religious, and maybe take the available time when she prays to read the Bible (start with daily lent readings if it's been a while since you read it). then you can also fast (in a different way) when she fasts. i would be very surprised (and shocked) if anyone suggests you should be divorced; the church should be open for anyone to come and pray.
please update us on how things go, i will pray that you come closer to God as you search for solutions.
please pray also for me in my weakness