Hi,
Before our Lord was betrayed, He prayed to the Father asking Him to spare Him from the cross:
a) If Christ came to die to give us eternal life, why did He pray that this be taken away from Him?
b) If God the Father and God the Son are One God, why did Christ pray to the Father for? He was basically speaking to Himself? Did Christ really need to speak to the father openly?
c) if Christ existed before the ages - then was His Soul created at birth? If His soul was created at Birth, then what characteristic of Jesus Christ existed before He was created?
Comments
Thinking about this stuff made me think of some more quesitons to explore.
a) Jesus was fully human in addition to being fully God. This means he suffered all the basic limitations the rest of us do including fear of pain; I don't think he used his Godness to cheat at all. I even hold what I think to be a less popular notion that he's even been sick, and/or possibly had skinned knees as a kid, etc.
When he was in Gethsemane, I think he knew the importance of what he was about to undertake, but normal and understandable human fears were present. I think his prayer in Gethsemane was a great illustration of true bravery. Bravery doesn't mean having no fear; it means fulfilling your duty in spite of your fear.
b) The Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are one in essence, but have three consciousnesses, so it makes sense for one of the trinity to be speaking to another and still be the same God. The question I thought of is: Is a pair of siamese twins a fair metaphor for the shared essence yet individuality of the people of the Trinity? The twins effectively share the same body yet they are two individual people and it makes sense for them to be speaking to each other. (probably not a very good metaphor now that I see it in print . . . oh well)
c) I think Jesus full nature (human & divine inseparable) existed forever, though I don't believe Adam was made to look exactly like him. The way we say he was born in Coptic literally means "He took flesh"; we also say that in the liturgy. As far as his characteristics . . . I have no idea. Maybe he didn't have a body, or maybe he had his glorified body like after the resurrection . . .
Thank you for your frequent source of things to meditate on. :)
George
That is a boom shaka laka of a question, QT! Very deep! I hope my response will help clarify your questions.
a) If Christ came to die to give us eternal life, why did He pray that this be taken away from Him?
Response: In His Divinity the Lord Jesus willingly goes to His death (17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father (John 10:17-18).”
In His Humanity, He wishes to avoid it, for it is a sign of humanity to avoid death:" O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me, (Mat.26:39)..."
St. Athanasius, The Apostolic says: "Whatever is written concerning our Savior in His human nature, out to be considered as applying to the whole race of Mankind; because He took our body, and exhibited in Himself human infirmity, (Defense of His Flight, 13,Ser., IV:259)
Thus being fully human He feared death (it can be painful at times) and prayed to the FATHER (not to Himself- please don't confuse ESSENCE with PERSON) uniting His Will to the Father.
b) If God the Father and God the Son are One God, why did Christ pray to the Father for? He was basically speaking to Himself? Did Christ really need to speak to the father openly?
Part of this question was answered in question A, but permit me to clarify a bit on Essence and Person. Essence is WHAT you are: human, PERSON is WHO you are: QT; thus QT (person) is a human being (essence). Every person has one essence. The Lord Jesus is the only person (trying to keep it non-Chalcedonian ;)) to be Human AND Divine! The Lord Jesus prayed to the FIRST person of the Holy Trinity and not to Himself. People can fall into an ancient heresy called "Modalism" which God made 3 appearances like an actor wearing masks. Orthodoxy says there are 3 DISTINCT person with the same divine essence or nature.
The Lord Jesus prayed "openly" to show us a lesson that "serves to teach us to prefer God's Will to our own, (St John of Damascus, The Disputation with Pyrrus,33,35, pages 16-18).
c) If Christ existed before the ages - then was His Soul created at birth? If His soul was created at Birth, then what characteristic of Jesus Christ existed before He was created?
He assumed complete human nature: body, will, soul, emtion -and even mortality, everything that pertains to humanity except sin. His HUMAN soulwas created at His conception as well all those other features of human nature. The Lord Jesus existed as God the Word (John 1:1,2). The Word, or Logos, of God, the second Person of the Most Holy Trinity was pure spirit as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit: "God is Spirit.. John 4:24."
Hope it helps ;D!
or is that completely wrong?
+mahraeel+
and he cried when Lazareth had died, because he was close with him.. this showed that he had personal emotions like everyone
I am almost sure the second one is correct
So, if we say "given that Christ was also a man and feared death" then we are admitting that those who are duophysites are in someway correct.
Regardless, why would Christ fear death when knowing that through His death, He would complete His plan for our salvation?
Also, (i know this is a stupid question, and we risk getting into attonement, but how exactly through Christ's death do we receive salvation?
If Christ had not died on the cross, would have lived eternally? or would He have died a normal/natural human death?
How does His death bring about salvation?
my two pennies concerning your last question: Christ died in the flesh, and his divinity departed not from his humanity. Therefore, Him being the source of Life could not be overcome by death, but death was swallowed up. I heard an analogy before of a fish (death) trying to consume a whale (Christ) and therefore the whale beats the fish that consumed all other tiny fishes before (our souls).
Christ then is the firstfruits of the new man. In Him death has no power over us anymore and we are united with Him through partaking in His death and resurrection (baptism) and are mystically united with His Body to become members of His Life-giving body through the Eucharist. We now are fit to be a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit (because this same Holy Spirit came upon Christ after His baptism). The Holy Spirit is the Lifegiver and therefore IN Christ we have life and the Holy Spirit dwells in us in order to be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. And having the knowledge and fullness of God IS essentially salvation.
St Paul explains this in an amazing way in his epistle to the Ephesians, the whole epistle is gold, but take a look at this part!
Ephesians 2:4-6 and 19-22But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 3:16-19
16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
There's much more to say about this topic, but i'll leave that to those on the site that exceed me by far with knowledge :D
If Christ had not died on the cross, would have lived eternally? or would He have died a normal/natural human death?
How does His death bring about salvation?
To Hos Erof's excellent response, I want to add that the body of Christ resurrected, so it is not dead, again I'll mention a quote said previously:
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7730.msg100974#msg100974 date=1237050424]
a) If Christ came to die to give us eternal life, why did He pray that this be taken away from Him?
A point that is overlooked is that with Jesus Christ being FULL God, he was pure and the source of holiness, and his crucifixion meant that He had to carry all the sins of the world. For Christ, that in itself is more detestable than anything, no wonder really, that He did not want the sins put on His shoulders.
a) If Christ came to die to give us eternal life, why did He pray that this be taken away from Him?
God is the Holy of Holies, He is purity, love, perfection, and is without spot, etc. For us to receive salvation He had to take all our sins one by one and have them put on him that he may suffer and die on our behalf. The Father then turned away from the Son because he was filled with the iniquities of all mankind. Christ was not afraid of being crucified he was afraid of becoming sin, the sin that we committed.
[glow=red,2,300]In the Name of the Father+ and of the Son+ and of the Holy Spirit+, the One True God. Amen[/glow]
That is a boom shaka laka of a question, QT! Very deep! I hope my response will help clarify your questions.
Thanks Boricua! I'm always asking questions.. but I really am interested to learn. Great.
OK.. that part is understood (thanks!). Could you, or someone else elaborate more on this issue? Thanks Boricua, thanks for explaining this. God knows how others have understood this, but i really regret not studying theology at a younger age now.
As a response to you first question
a) If Christ came to die to give us eternal life, why did He pray that this be taken away from Him?
God is the Holy of Holies, He is purity, love, perfection, and is without spot, etc. For us to receive salvation He had to take all our sins one by one and have them put on him that he may suffer and die on our behalf. The Father then turned away from the Son because he was filled with the iniquities of all mankind. Christ was not afraid of being crucified he was afraid of becoming sin, the sin that we committed.
Christ can and never will become sin.....I think maybe you need to rephrase this part as to not confuse others. Christ is sinless as He is one of the Holy Trinity
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=7730.msg101766#msg101766 date=1239576328]
As a response to you first question
a) If Christ came to die to give us eternal life, why did He pray that this be taken away from Him?
God is the Holy of Holies, He is purity, love, perfection, and is without spot, etc. For us to receive salvation He had to take all our sins one by one and have them put on him that he may suffer and die on our behalf. The Father then turned away from the Son because he was filled with the iniquities of all mankind. Christ was not afraid of being crucified he was afraid of becoming sin, the sin that we committed.
Christ can and never will become sin.....I think maybe you need to rephrase this part as to not confuse others. Christ is sinless as He is one of the Holy Trinity
Let's say that Unworthy meant to say Christ "CARRIED" the iniquities of the world? Would that be better?
Thanks for your input.. i admit, this isn't the easiest of subjects to actually get around.
Sorry to disagree, and this is one of the greatest mysteries of our faith, but Jesus did become sin. II Cor 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
George
omelnour,
Sorry to disagree, and this is one of the greatest mysteries of our faith, but Jesus did become sin. II Cor 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
George
Hi George,
Are you saying that Christ became sin?
I know in the NT it says He became a "curse". THe wording is pretty clear, but I think it is hard to understand how God can be this? Please feel free to explain more.
Is there another interpretation of II Cor 5:21?
"For He" -- God the Father
"made"
"Him who knew no sin" -- Jesus
"to be sin for us, . . ."
???,
Is there another interpretation of II Cor 5:21?
"For He" -- God the Father
"made"
"Him who knew no sin" -- Jesus
"to be sin for us, . . ."
Thanks. Do you want to add a few of your personal contemplations to that?
I wonder if Father Peter can help us with this subject?!?
Omelnour,
I don't think Christ literally becomes sin, but He becomes an atonement for our sins.
Anyway, I'm really getting to grips as well, like anyone else, but what problem do you have exactly with what has been posted?
+ Christ is Risen! Truly He is Risen! +
I turn to the words of Ambrose to explain the issue that is being discussed here:
But if you hold to the letter, so as to think from what is written, namely, the Word was made flesh, that the Word of God was turned into flesh, do you not deny that it is written of the Lord that e did not make sin but was made sin? So, was the Lord turned into sin? Not so, but, since he assumed our sins, He is called sin. For the Lord is also called an accursed thing, not because the Lord was turned into an accursed thing but because He Himself took on our curse. He says, 'For he is accursed that hangs on a tree.' It is written that he was made sin, that is, not by the nature and operation of sin... but that He might crucify our sin in his flesh, He assumed for us the burden of the infirmities of a body already guilty of carnal sin.
Pray for me and my weakness,
childoforthodoxy
Another is from St Severus who says...
You see that on all points by being himself made a curse he becomes a dispeller of the curse, and this curse he takes up on to the cross, and thence puts it to flight: for it was overcome by the law which said, "Cursed of God is everyone who shall be hanged upon wood" (1 Deut 21:23).
And he himself underwent the accursed death that was for our sake, and thence blessed the whole human race; and the blessed Paul bears witness who writes to the Galatians and says, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, and became a curse for our sake, because it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who is hanged upon wood', in order that the blessing of Abraham might be among the nations in Jesus Christ" (1 Gal. 4:13,14).
So also he is said to have become sin (2 Cor. 5:21), because he endured the death that was the due of sinners; for, while he is himself the pure justice of the Father, he is crucified between two robbers; but these on account of their offences, and in accordance with the passage in the Gospel of Mark who says, "And with him they crucified two robbers, one on the right hand and one on the left, and the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, 'He was numbered with the unjust'" (Mark 25: 27, 28).
So he became sin to remit the sins of others: so also he paid the debt that was incurred for us, and we ourselves became righteousness in him; for those who have been freed from debts are righteous, and are not termed liable. And, because during the time of his Humanization he did no sin, therefore also iniquity was not found in him, but he showed himself righteous, that is, he is righteousness; and, when he became flesh, all our nature again was justified in him as in firstfruits; and this is what the wise Paul said to the Corinthians about the Father, "He made him sin for our sake, who knew no sin, that we might be the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).
So we see that he is said to have become sin because he endured the death we deserved, and this is the sense in which we should understand that he became sin.
Father Peter
I really like this discussion. Please continue. Thanks to all who have contributed. I know this topic is quite serious as we are often challenged by many non believers (and even our own faithful) as to how our Lord, our Creator, can be seen as being "Cursed" and being "sin".
The language is very important here, because its not as if He was sin, but He assumed our sins. But the word "assumed" means He carried them (as far as I am concerned) - would anyone here agree with that?
Also, the word "cursed" - Its true that He became cursed for us, but is it right to use the term "He IS cursed" or better to say "He became cursed"?
I know that Christ carried our sins on the cross, therefore we were saved.....but maybe it was me getting hung up on the wording
Thanks for the clarifications though
People,
I really like this discussion. Please continue. Thanks to all who have contributed. I know this topic is quite serious as we are often challenged by many non believers (and even our own faithful) as to how our Lord, our Creator, can be seen as being "Cursed" and being "sin".
The language is very important here, because its not as if He was sin, but He assumed our sins. But the word "assumed" means He carried them (as far as I am concerned) - would anyone here agree with that?
Also, the word "cursed" - Its true that He became cursed for us, but is it right to use the term "He IS cursed" or better to say "He became cursed"?
Can someone tell me if what I said was right? That we use the term "assumed" our sins or is it OK to say "He became sin"?
الذي تفسيره: إلهي إلهي لماذا تركتني؟
أليس هو الله نفسه؟ فكيف يقول: إلهي إلهي لماذا تركتني...
يجزع بعض المسيحيين أمام هذه الكلمات، و يقولون: لماذا قال الله مثل هذه الكلمات الصعبة؟
و المسلمين و غير المسيحيين عموماً يرون فيها أنها دليل قاطع على خطأ المسيحية، و تأليه السيد المسيح...
لكن الحقيقة، أن الإيمان المسيحي يقوم على هذه العبارة...
بدون هذه العبارة، عقيدة الفداء نفسها تتزعزع!!!
المسيح فداؤه كامل...
لذلك فقد جاز عنا الموت بكل بشاعته و أنواعه و اختبره تماماً مثلنا...
لقد أخذ خطايا كل الإنسانية و خطايا هذا الدهر، و كأنها خطاياه الشخصية...و ذاق كل مرارتها و آلامها...(كما يقول بولس الرسول: "صار خطية لأجلنا")
خطيئة آدم أماتته موتاً:
1- جسدياً: حيث تنفصل نفسه عن جسده
2- أدبياً: باللعنة...و صار يخاف الحيوانات مثلاً...
3- روحياً: بالبعد عن الله
4- أبدياً: في الجحيم...
و المسيح ذاق الموت بكل سلطانه (سلطان الموت)
مات على خشبة (ملعون كل من علق على خشبة)
و جسدياً..
و نزل إلى الجحيم...و حطمه و أخذ نفوس الأبرار...
لكن أين هو الموت الروحي؟
إنه يظهر تماماً في هذه العبارة: "إلهي إلهي لماذا تركتني"
لقد ذاق يسوع مرارة البعد عن الله، و كأن الخطية هي خطيته...
الفداء لم يكن تمثيلية...بل لقد حمل يسوع عنا فعلاً كل خطايا هذا الدهر...
و كل تبعاتها و آلامها...
و الجحيم ليس فقط مكان العذاب..بل أهم شيء فيه هو الحرمان من حب الله و القرب منه...
و هذا ما اختبره المسيح...
لاهوتياً بالطبع هو كلمة الله...لا يمكن أن يكون قد انفصل عن الآب...
لكنه اختبر تماماً الانفصال عن الله...هذا الذي اختبره آدم و أولاده بالخطية...
النفس اليائسة لا تطلب الله....لكنه صلى إلى الله في عمق آلامه التي لا يمكن لأي بشري تصورها....و لا يحتملها إلا الإله المتجسد...
فالمسيح هنا يصرخ، نائباً عن الخاطئ الذي كان يجب أن يحتمل ذلك العذاب، و ذلك الترك، "إلهي
إلهي لماذا تركتني"
المسيح اختبر بالفعل تبعات الخطايا كلها و كأنه هو المخطئ، كأنها خطاياه هو الشخصية في جسده الخاص...
و غالباً كان السيد المسيح يصلي المزمور 22...
1 إِلَهِي! إِلَهِي لِمَاذَا تَرَكْتَنِي بَعِيداً عَنْ خَلاَصِي عَنْ كَلاَمِ زَفِيرِي؟
2 إِلَهِي فِي النَّهَارِ أَدْعُو فَلاَ تَسْتَجِيبُ. فِي اللَّيْلِ أَدْعُو فَلاَ هُدُوءَ لِي.
3 وَأَنْتَ الْقُدُّوسُ الْجَالِسُ بَيْنَ تَسْبِيحَاتِ إِسْرَائِيلَ.
4 عَلَيْكَ اتَّكَلَ آبَاؤُنَا. اتَّكَلُوا فَنَجَّيْتَهُمْ.
5 إِلَيْكَ صَرَخُوا فَنَجُوا. عَلَيْكَ اتَّكَلُوا فَلَمْ يَخْزُوا.
...
و هذا المزمور فيه نبوات عن آلامه، و فيه بالطبع الإيمان بخلاص الرب و تسبيحه...
و لا يمكن أن ينم عن يأس...
لكنه بسبب أتعابه الجسدية لم يكمله بشفتيه....و لكن في قلبه...
لقد علمنا يسوع في هذه الكلمات أن الشكوى لله و الصراخ إليه في عمق آلامنا هو شيء محبوب و مرغوب فيه...
إذاً فكما قلنا...المسيح اختبر تماماً كل آلام الخطية...
و أهمها عذاب الجحيم، حيث يفقد الإنسان صلته بالله و يحرم من محبته و علاقته به...
و بهذه الكلمات العميقة جداً...أكد يسوع أن الفداء حقيقي و كامل...و ليس مجرد تمثيلية أو ظاهرياً فقط...
يا لعظمة تدبير إلهنا، و حبه و رحمته...
Translation:
Why did Christ say: Elohi elohi lama sabakhtani, which translates, My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Isn't He God Himself? Why would He say that?
Some christians are puzzled when faced with these words and they ask themselves, why would God utter such difficult words?
And muslims and non-christians in general see the words as prove that christians are wrong and that they deify Christ
The truth, however, is that the christian faith is based upon this very phrase!!! Without this phrase, the whole theory of redemption is shaken...
Christ redeemed us fully, which is why He died for our sakes a complete death, with all its horror, and with all its colours, He tasted death exactly just like we would
He took the sins of all humanity and the sins of this age upon Him as if they were His personal sins, and He tasted their bitterness and pain, just like St Paus says: 'He became sin for us'
Adam's sin resulted in death...:
1....physically: when the soul leaves the body
2.... ???: with the curse, since humans started fearing animals for instance
3.... spiritually: by being far from God
4.... eternally: in Hell
Christ tasted death with all its power (the power of death), He died on a piece of wood (cursed is he who hangs on a piece of wood)
He died physically, He descended into Hades and demolished it and took with Him the souls of the righteous
But... where is the spiritual death??? The answer lies in this phrase: 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?'
Jesus tasted the bitterness of being away from God, as if the sin He carried was His own, Redemption wasn't just a show, Jesus really did carry all sins of this age on our behalf, and with them all their pain and discomfort...
hell isn't merely a place of suffering, but its most important characteristic is being away from the love of God and not being near Him, this is what Christ experienced
In His divinity of course, He is the Word of God, it's not possible for Him to be seperated from the Father, but He did experiece being away from God in it's entirity... this is what Adam and his children tasted by sinning
The desperate soul doesn't seek God, yet He prayed to God in the midst of His pain, which no human can imagine and which no one could bear except for the God Incarnate
Christ here screams on behalf of the sinner who was supposed to bear this suffering, and this being forsaken 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?'
Christ really experienced the complete result of sin as if He was the sinner, as if they were His personal sins in His own body
Most probably Christ was praying Psalm 22, this pslam contains prophesies on His pain... it also contains faith in God's redemption and praise..
it can't come out of despair
Because of His physical pain He couldn't finish the psalm with His lips, but He continued in His heart...
Jesus taught us by using these words, that screaming to God while we're in the midst of the pain is something that is desired and loved
So, Christ tasted all the pain of sin, the most important of which is the suffering of Hell, where human loses his bond with God and is deprived of His love and his relationship with Him
With these very deep words Christ confirmed that our redemption was true and complete and not just a show or an outward thing...
Oh, the greatness of God's plan, and His love and mercy...
this is an excerpt from the book 'Words of Christ on the cross' from Father Anthony Coniaris...
I thought it was interesting since it touched upon the subject we're discussing here..
Can someone tell me if what I said was right? That we use the term "assumed" our sins or is it OK to say "He became sin"?
Lets look at the Scripture and see what words it uses, not to limit our discussion but to base it on the word of God,
(1Pe 2:24) Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed.
That word, bore is ἀναφέρω and it means to bear or carry or take up. The other verse says..
(2Co 5:21) Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us: that we might be made the justice of God in him. Sin for us... That is, to be a sin offering, a victim for sin.
The key word here is made, which is ποιέω. This has lots of meanings to do with making, bringing about, causing.
There is also..
(Heb 9:28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
And this also has the word bear, which is the same word as in 1 Peter.
Can anyone else find verses which speak of Christ in relation to bearing or carrying our sins, or any other such ideas?
In English the word assume can have the same meaning as 'taking up'. I think these verses have the sense of Christ bearing something that is not his own. And the other word - made - we have already found in the Fathers where they describe it as meaning that he seems to have become liable to the punishment we deserve, and in that sense is 'made sin' while he preserves himself without sin towards God - since sin is a turning away from God.
What seems clear is that we cannot and must not say that Christ became sinful. But he shared with us the consequences of Adam falling into sin and being left in his natural mortality. Christ became liable to pain and suffering, such as we bear and deserve because of our sin. Yet in him it was undeserved therefore he bore the consequences of our human sin, not his own.
Father Peter
What seems clear is that we cannot and must not say that Christ became sinful. But he shared with us the consequences of Adam falling into sin and being left in his natural mortality. Christ became liable to pain and suffering, such as we bear and deserve because of our sin. Yet in him it was undeserved therefore he bore the consequences of our human sin, not his own.
Father Peter
Im not at all trying to blow my own trumpet.. but it was a good thing I asked.
Thanks Fr. Peter.
I think the above response is pretty clear. It makes sense also with respect to what we've learned theologically. Christ CANNOT be described as "sinful" - omelnour in a way therefore had a valid point.
I have no idea what you said, but it looks really pretty.
George