Brethren, my name is Daniel and I've been a member for quite a while now, almost a year. But I've mainly just been reading and enjoying your words of wisdom. To cut things short, I've ran into a friend who believes abortion is wrong but they believe that if someone is raped then they have the right to perform the abortion. I have many moral, theological, and rational arguments to prove otherwise, varying from complicated to as simple as two wrongs don't make a right.
What I'm asking for is for any suggestions from those of you who have experience with this kind of situation, along with your prayers for my friend and I.
Pray for me,
Daniel
Comments
The problem is that if a woman is raped, and is subsequently pregnant, she may go psychologically crazy: having a baby she didnt ask for, by a man she doesnt love NOR like, bringing a child in a world without a father.
My question is for you: If she was unfortunate enough to be raped and get pregnant, and you insist that she should NOT have an abortion, then would you OFFER to raise the child yourself??
My only issue is that psycholgicially, she could suffer tremendously and perhaps inflict pain on herself.
But if you think all women who are raped and get pregnant should NOT have an abortion, then at least offer to take care of the children or adopt them.
How does our church view abortion after a rape incident?
Abortion is only permitted when a mother's life is at risk. Pregnancy due to rape is very unfortunate but does not justify killing the fetus. The mother should consider this as a test of faith and carry that cross with joy, knowing that God permits such tribulations to those who can endure them, and He will give the comfort and help needed.
Father Peter
This is Anba Youssef's answer from the Southern Diocese, perhaps the third sentence will be of use:
How does our church view abortion after a rape incident?
Abortion is only permitted when a mother's life is at risk. Pregnancy due to rape is very unfortunate but does not justify killing the fetus. The mother should consider this as a test of faith and carry that cross with joy, knowing that God permits such tribulations to those who can endure them, and He will give the comfort and help needed.
I agree with this answer... and if psychologically she is disturbed by it.. then it will be a problem, and the pain that she could potentially inflict on herself could be disastrous.
[quote author=SilentOne link=topic=7824.msg101726#msg101726 date=1239397036]
This is Anba Youssef's answer from the Southern Diocese, perhaps the third sentence will be of use:
How does our church view abortion after a rape incident?
Abortion is only permitted when a mother's life is at risk. Pregnancy due to rape is very unfortunate but does not justify killing the fetus. The mother should consider this as a test of faith and carry that cross with joy, knowing that God permits such tribulations to those who can endure them, and He will give the comfort and help needed.
I agree with this answer... and if psychologically she is disturbed by it.. then it will be a problem, and the pain that she could potentially inflict on herself could be disastrous.
i think sayedna's answer is clear. now all of this psychology talk about the mother will be there in EVERY CASE of rape. considering that to be a problem woudl defy the whole belief that sayedna just said.
I idea is what sayedna said in the second part: "The mother should consider this as a test of faith and carry that cross with joy, knowing that God permits such tribulations to those who can endure them, and He will give the comfort and help needed."
If the mother doesn't have the true faith in GOD, then the whole rule is invalid for that specific mother.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7824.msg101734#msg101734 date=1239440397]
[quote author=SilentOne link=topic=7824.msg101726#msg101726 date=1239397036]
This is Anba Youssef's answer from the Southern Diocese, perhaps the third sentence will be of use:
How does our church view abortion after a rape incident?
Abortion is only permitted when a mother's life is at risk. Pregnancy due to rape is very unfortunate but does not justify killing the fetus. The mother should consider this as a test of faith and carry that cross with joy, knowing that God permits such tribulations to those who can endure them, and He will give the comfort and help needed.
I agree with this answer... and if psychologically she is disturbed by it.. then it will be a problem, and the pain that she could potentially inflict on herself could be disastrous.
i think sayedna's answer is clear. now all of this psychology talk about the mother will be there in EVERY CASE of rape. considering that to be a problem woudl defy the whole belief that sayedna just said.
I idea is what sayedna said in the second part: "The mother should consider this as a test of faith and carry that cross with joy, knowing that God permits such tribulations to those who can endure them, and He will give the comfort and help needed."
If the mother doesn't have the true faith in GOD, then the whole rule is invalid for that specific mother.
Mina,
Of course, what you are saying is in no doubt an ideal Christian attitude that we should all adopt. It is definately something that I feel edifies me, and I thank you even raising this statement as I feel some comfort in it - personally.
However, such a statement may have no impact or bearing on someone who is not Christian. And I think this is where the original question is directed. I don't think we are talking about a good Coptic girl being raped. We are talking about someone who doesn't know God. Already, atheists, or non practicing Christians seem to have their own set of values - which may include abortion in that. Some may believe that abortion is wrong without being Christian at all. Most definitely the voice of the Church may influence them to some degree. Nevertheless, should push come to shove in their lives, I doubt very much that such words would appeal to them whatsoever.
I'm not at all condoning abortion in the case of rape. But I am most definitely refraining from judging them - especially if I myself intend to judge them about having an abortion and will not offer them my assistance in raising their children.
Although I PERSONALLY can accept the statement you mentioned: i.e. "the mother or person should consider this as a test of faith" - i STILL, however, find it HUGELY INSULTING that a bishop would dare to impose his morals on others. He can consider it a test of faith for HIS personal life... but I don't think he has the right to suggest this for other people (who may not have may not even be christian or know God at all!!) especially if HE HIMSELF (not anyone else he knows!!!) is not willing to take care of a baby whose father raped his mother.
So, when you say the whole rule is invalid - I guess that would mean that it doesn't apply to them? Which means that you agree with me then??
( Im a bit lost)
Mina,
Of course, what you are saying is in no doubt an ideal Christian attitude that we should all adopt. It is definately something that I feel edifies me, and I thank you even raising this statement as I feel some comfort in it - personally.
However, such a statement may have no impact or bearing on someone who is not Christian. And I think this is where the original question is directed. I don't think we are talking about a good Coptic girl being raped. We are talking about someone who doesn't know God. Already, atheists, or non practicing Christians seem to have their own set of values - which may include abortion in that. Some may believe that abortion is wrong without being Christian at all. Most definitely the voice of the Church may influence them to some degree. Nevertheless, should push come to shove in their lives, I doubt very much that such words would appeal to them whatsoever.
I'm not at all condoning abortion in the case of rape. But I am most definitely refraining from judging them - especially if I myself intend to judge them about having an abortion and will not offer them my assistance in raising their children.
So, when you say the whole rule is invalid - I guess that would mean that it doesn't apply to them? Which means that you agree with me then??
( Im a bit lost)
I guess what i said was a Christian answer for a Christian.
When i say the whole rule is "invalid" i mean it doesn't apply for those who are not with God in our Christian life. Referring to the people am talking about as believers or unbelievers; that's fine. it's just that many of "the believers" still stray for the teaching of the Church and do what they want.
Now if we are speaking to unbelievers we simply don't have anything other than the main reason we have for ANY ABORTION. That is: "Killing a human being." That's the only think you can use against an unbeliever. Dude. HE IS A BISHOP OF GOD. HE chose him to be so. His teachings are part of the Church and we are to respect him in every way. despite that, he didn't say anything wrong. This is the teaching of the church. NO ABORTION for any one except if the mother is in physical danger. it's that simple and clear.
Indeed it is hard to decide the measure of others cross. Who are we to say this is your right size of cross, go carry it? But Jesus Himself gave the key of heaven to His disciples and their descendants “And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.” Matthew 16:19.
My point is we should not start by bending the rules. We shouldn’t start by defining when abortion is allowed but by declaring NO ABORTION. However, the clergy might loosen the rule depending on an individual’s specific circumstance for the have the authority to forbid or permit.
Again let us start from no abortion, which is the norm, and if we find some extraordinary cases such as great physical dangers to the mother let those cases be the exception. Now it is natural to say “how come we pass such great burdens onto others while secluding ourselves from the problem?” Well this is a very noble question and here is what Mother Teresa had to say about it:
"Please don't kill the child. I want the child. Please give me the child. I am willing to accept any child who would be aborted, and to give that child to a married couple who will love the child, and be loved by the child. From our children's home in Calcutta alone, we have saved over 3,000 children from abortions. These children have brought such love and joy to their adopting parents, and have grown up so full of love and joy!"
Mother Teresa also said "It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
P.S There is more quotes by Mother Teresa in the following link: http://www.gargaro.com/mother_teresa/quotes.html
Happy Palm Sunday to all :D
In Christ
Theophilus
Now to the early Church Fathers:
“The very earliest rules of the Orthodox Church, beginning with the LXIII Canon of the Council of Elivira, A.D. 306, and the XXII Canon of the Council of Ancyra, 314 A. D. (Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfil ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees.), deprive the woman who has destroyed a fetus of Holy Communion for a period of ten years. The same provision is made in the XCI Canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council and the II and VIII Canons of St. Basil the Great. In his VIII Canon St. Basil gives a succinct and precise definition of abortion: "Those who give potions for the destruction of the child conceived in the womb are murderers, as are those who take the poisons which kill the child." The only difference between our age and former times is that now this murder is performed not by means of poison but by means of an operation, and that as a result of improved medical techniques, an abortion is now less dangerous to the mother's life.”
The ten years excommunication now has been reduced to no less than one year by Pope Shenouda. This however does not mean abortion is now considers a lesser sin but it is due to the economy of salivation.
To find more about the orthodox view on abortion: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspxIn Christ
Theophilus
So, you might ask what the solution is. I find it a terrifying thing to force the mother to raise the baby. If she would like, that is a great blessing from God. If she would not, I personally find it absurd to force her to. There are various organizations (including churches) that would be willing to take the child and give it to parents that will be able to love and care for it accordingly.
There is one more issue we are forgetting. If we force the mother to raise the child, she could be driven to insanity. Many women are extremely sensitive people. Seeing the result of her rape before her every moment of her life could drive many women to insanity, leaving the child an orphan as well. Is this the result that we want??
I also know that many people will object to my personal input on this subject, and say that it does not matter what any individual thinks, but rather what the rules actually are. However, I am finding that we tend to place these "rules" without actually feeling the problem. We must do that, or else we will become cold people who refuse to understand and feel others' emotions.
There is no debate here.
I think its really best to ask a clinical psychiatrist these questions. I am not qualified to answer them, but I can most definitely imagine how traumatic it must be to be pregnant by someone who raped you, and then be encouraged to have the baby to appease "the Church" - where no one seems to be offering a helping hand, but just judgements. Such a scenario, seems a realistic combination of ingredients that would lead to either severe clinical depression or suicide.
In Christ
Theophilus
Basically, all that i said was said, but this an opinion from a females point of view.
GBU!
In all honesty, certain people aren't getting the message and are just going by what black-and-white ink on paper (pixels on a display?!) say as far as what this bishop said or what that person in church history said. You must not think like this. You have to consider the woman and the terrible event that she already went through and what impact it will have on her if she doesn't get that abortion. It is better to get rid of a fetus than to have a child that is fatherless and a mother that may not even care for the child. Think about it then -- is it so immoral?
She will have too many issues to deal with that I think no human being could handle.
1.She will be suffering the mental trauma of being raped and will need to undergo years of counseling.
2.How is she expected to be a good mother if she is still trying to deal with what has happened to her? She needs to be mentally healthy to be able to raise a child properly.
3. The child will be a constant reminder of the worst day of her life.
4. The child will be fatherless and will probably ask about the father at some point. The mother will have to relive the whole thing again and the kid will probably get the shock of his/her life and may need counseling.
5.If she is a single woman, I am sure she will be looked upon extremely negatively in Coptic society for having a child out of "wedlock". She may even be blamed for the rape as is common in middle eastern societies.
6.It will be impossible for her to find a Coptic man that will accept her situation and marry her.
For all the guys that are saying she should keep the child, I would like to ask you-would you marry a woman who has a child as a result of rape? Would you understand and support her and raise this child?
Bottom line this womans life will be pretty much a living hell. Unless the church comes up with a support system, involving counseling, protection, encouragement, possibly caring for the child and raising it, or adoption possibilities etc Its ridiculous to expect the woman to have to endure so much pain and suffering.
Abortion is never the answer to rape because it takes a terrible wrong and compounds it by adding murder, and taking a human life is murder.
Therefore the question is never, is it justified for a woman to take away the life of an unborn human being by violence when that life has begun in a violent act, but as QT has said, the question is what do we, the Church, do for a person who is in such a situation. I know that this is a live issue in Egypt where Christian women are being raped, and those of you who are well connected to Egypt will know better how it is being dealt with in practice than I do.
But I know in my heart that if one of my own daughters was raped and fell pregnant I would not be counselling abortion. Not because there is a Church law which forbids it, but because the unborn child is a human being who is already precious to God. If it is better for us to have a millstone tied around our necks and be cast into the sea if we cause a little one to sin, how much a greater judgement if we encourage the life of a little one to be destroyed?
It doesn't seem enough to me to say 'there are not support services in place so abortion is OK in these circumstances'. Put the support services in place then. The Roman Catholic Church manages to. Many Protestant Churches manage to. But I am a little confused as to whether this is a purely hypothetical issue outside of Egypt, or whether we are talking about the practice in Egypt?
Taking away a human life to ease even very severe psychological stress is not the answer though. Otherwise we would counsel ending the lives of old people with dementia - I know friends who have been suffering terribly through having relatives whose personalities have disintegrated due to this disease. Or people with chronic illnesses or severe disabilities, or people in comas.
As has been said, we should be asking what we should be doing to help such people, understanding the stresses that they are under if they do make choices the Church cannot support, but not going so far as to condone those decisions. There is always another way - the person in the middle of such a situation is not usually best placed to see the alternatives.
Father Peter
I AM NOT condoning abortion in the case of rape. But if i am going to tell this poor woman that she should keep the baby and that abortion is wrong, I better suggest to keep it for her and look after it. The Church does not even help in problems that IT CAUSES so i doubt very much it will help in a problem that someone else has caused. This is from my own experience.
That is a cruel option initself as the mother would give me her baby and she may even be attached to it.
Its a cruel situation. We need to show mercy and compassion in this event.
It seems to me that the only options a victim of rape is faced with (according to people on this board) is either abortion or keep the product of the rape, and thus, possibly face greater psychological trauma by keeping the child. First, some statistics: according to various sources, the chances of a woman getting pregnant as a result of rape ranges anywhere from 1-5% (see here). That seems awfully small to me. Granted, even if one person suffers rape, that's one person too many. Is there a way to circumvent the problem of not having an abortion and not adding to the potential psychological trauma associated with a child of rape? I've skimmed some of the posts, and I'm surprised that no one has suggested the possibility of putting such a child up for adoption. Why should the woman keep the child if she doesn't want it? Further, why kill it and not give it a chance at life? Now, I don't know what is involved in going to an adoption agency and putting a child up for adoption, but at least that gets around the issue of abortion and mental trauma. Thoughts?
In addition, I wanted to comment on something someone said earlier about Coptic men and women who have been raped. One should not be so quick to judge on such matters. While I'm sure there are Coptic men who would refuse, without so much as a second thought, marrying a woman who was raped, I'm certain there are some who truly live Christ and reflect His love and would doubtlessly wish to help such women. It won't be easy, but then, Christ never said anything about life being easy. However, in the end, 'omnia vincit amor' (Love conquers all).
Its a cruel situation. We need to show mercy and compassion in this event.
QT, I am missing the subtext of your posts. I am not sure why you are saying essentially the same thing several times? Surely no-one doubts that compassion should be shown? Surely no-one here is doubting that the Church should provide assistance.
I hope that if a situation arose I would do whatever I could to help such a woman, even to the point of opening my home. But why are your posts making me think that you think people would not do that?
So what is your real question?
Father Peter
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7824.msg101834#msg101834 date=1239725990]
Its a cruel situation. We need to show mercy and compassion in this event.
QT, I am missing the subtext of your posts. I am not sure why you are saying essentially the same thing several times? Surely no-one doubts that compassion should be shown? Surely no-one here is doubting that the Church should provide assistance.
I hope that if a situation arose I would do whatever I could to help such a woman, even to the point of opening my home. But why are your posts making me think that you think people would not do that?
So what is your real question?
Father Peter
Fr. Peter, I doubt that the Church would provide assistance.
I have heard of cases where bishops AND priests have encouraged a woman to marry the man who raped her!! And being an obedient orthodox girl, she did that.
I myself have been and seen countless situations where the clergy in the CoC have imposed merciless standards that they themselves wouldn't even know how to spell. And the worst part: they were the cause of the problem.
as a (female) medical doctor i have had several experiences when women who have had abortions many years ago (20 years ago in 1 case) have just started crying when asked about operations they have had in the past (a routine medical question). they have been full of grief and guilt, which, although dormant, was so great it bubbled up easily in front of a tired junor doctor filling in some routine paper-work.
so let's not think for one minute that abortion is not traumatic for the mother.
i agree with cefas, however that our churches should provide 2 things:
1. help with arranging adoption if needed
2. V IMPORTANT! men who are willing to marry women who have been raped, even if they are single mums at the time of engagement. i have met too many Christian men who said (theoretically) they would never ever marry a non-virgin even if the case of rape.
there is no-where in the Bible that God gives us the right to marry a virgin.
think about it, why should you demand from God an easier life? it is better to suffer the shame and take the blessing.
also women shoud be willing to marry men who have been raped.
if people have had abortions in the past, we should remember we are all sinners, and not punish them for the rest of their lives (some time away from communion, as theophilus1 talks about may act as some kind of deterrent for people who take it lightly).
may God give us the grace to show mercy and the courage to follow Him and uphold His principles.
that sounds worrying. i hope God will give you the courage to say something to the bishop if you see a similar situation again.
qt,
that sounds worrying. i hope God will give you the courage to say something to the bishop if you see a similar situation again.
On the contrary,
It has shown me that they are so capable of hiding behind their priesthood - either when in the CHurch, or outside.
i just feel sorry for coptic people who were raised to be obedient to the church and church fathers that had the misfortune of being Coptic and knowing such priests and bishops.
What really saddens me is that they would have made brilliant lawyers. What a waste of a career.
mmm... one of the things qt mentioned was making the woman marry the man who raped her. i can't see how that could be right.
if the "raper" sinned and is sorry for it.....how can you cover his sin. also how can you cover the woman's pregnancy. you thinks it's easy being known to be raped. NO!. they are actually trying to avoid those psychological probelms that Qt was talking about. a woman who becomes pregnant without a husband in egpyt is not an easy thing. she'll never get away from those egy's words.
I am sorry to take a differnt route of explain this other then what i said before.....but this is just reality. so the clergy (even thoo they do sometimes make mistakes when doing this) try to do best for everyone.
I feel like when this question comes it's often b/c someone wants to hear the church say it's ok. what we have to realize is that, like it's been mentioned before, a sin is never not a sin, and God has given us the free will to either commit them or not for whatever reason--even the horribly complicated ones such as this.
The real reason I felt I needed to reply is about the women being raped, then encouraged to marry their abusers. This thought frightens me to no end, and no matter the good intentions behind it, it is never the answer.
The slim training I have in these situations has taught me that rape is about the abuser having power over his victim, and is a behavior pattern that more often than not repeats itself and manifests itself in various ways. It is not the answer even for a single mother in Egypt or any where else in the world.
I hope you are all having a blessed Holy Week.
in Christ
tina n
I was looking for some Holy Week music when I came across this thread, and felt compelled to reply. To give you some context, these are my thoughts as a young Coptic woman, in her first few years of medical education who might be faced with the prospect of learning to perform abortions for various reasons. I've thought and dialogued about this issue quite a bit with my peers, family, and friends.
I feel like when this question comes it's often b/c someone wants to hear the church say it's ok. what we have to realize is that, like it's been mentioned before, a sin is never not a sin, and God has given us the free will to either commit them or not for whatever reason--even the horribly complicated ones such as this.
The real reason I felt I needed to reply is about the women being raped, then encouraged to marry their abusers. This thought frightens me to no end, and no matter the good intentions behind it, it is never the answer.
The slim training I have in these situations has taught me that rape is about the abuser having power over his victim, and is a behavior pattern that more often than not repeats itself and manifests itself in various ways. It is not the answer even for a single mother in Egypt or any where else in the world.
well....i just doubt that you haven't seen what really happens in egypt. it get's really bad when you are a single mother. actually it is so bad that you normally don't hear much about those women becuase they HIDE themselves to not be ashamed.