Hi,
I'm just curious, but why can't women read during the Paschal Prayers at Church. The men are not deacons, and yet they read.
Why is it only men?
I can understand that a woman is not allowed in the alter. But this is outside of the alter. If women can teach sunday school at Church (i.e. IN the Church) - they may read to the children a passage from the Bible. Surely that amounts to reading the Bible in the Church? They might as well do it in front of an older audience.
Comments
The men are not deacons, and yet they read.
But they are deacons they're just not wearing their tonias like in a3shaya and baker. The Mangalia is outside the Altar all the time by the way.
i would love to know if there is a reason for this
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7837.msg101787#msg101787 date=1239642086]
The men are not deacons, and yet they read.
But they are deacons they're just not wearing their tonias like in a3shaya and baker. The Mangalia is outside the Altar all the time by the way.
Im so sorry, but that is not completely true. Would you agree?
The readings are done by people who are not even ordained as deacons. I'm sure you must have realised that also in your Church.
however, i think the answer to this question is the same answer to the question 'why can't women be deacons and priests and bishops?' which i am not a 100% sure of. maybe someone else can enlighten us.
just to add something, in my church in Bright Saturday, everyone (men and woman) read part of the revelation. is this allowed? if so, then why not during Pascha? if it is not allowed then i think the priest at my church allows it just so everyone can get a blessing. and on a side note when the members of the congregation read part of the revelation at my church, they don't go to the mangalia they just read in their spot.
however, i think the answer to this question is the same answer to the question 'why can't women be deacons and priests and bishops?' which i am not a 100% sure of. maybe someone else can enlighten us.
Im not at all asking why women cannot be deacons. I'm not suggesting that nor asking that.
I'm asking why they can't read the Bible or homilies during the Paschal Prayers as the men who read them are not all deacons (i.e. they've never been ordained). Secondly, women also serve in sunday school. Part of that may be reading to children passages from the Bible. What is the difference between reading a passage from the Bible to some kids who are sitting in Church after the mass has finished, and reading the SAME Bible during say - Passion Week?!
and i said "i think the answer to your question is the same answer to this question 'why can't women be deacons and priests and bishops?' which i am not 100% sure of"
and also keep in mind that i said "i think"
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
It is not permissible for women to teach in church and the job of a reader in the church (previously, not so much now) was to explain and instruct the congregation. This is my guess-- I'm not sure of the actual reason. I guess it goes along with the other thing that St. Paul , that he "does not permit woman to have authority over a man" and that kind of goes along-- not to read or instruct in the church services.
In my church, women don't read the Revelation. I've never heard it being done before.
The way I see it now though, does it really matter? The men can take the blessings of the reading the readings and singing the psalms and the women can take the blessing of listening. Really, in the big scheme, who gets to read is inconsequential.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7837.msg101795#msg101795 date=1239648571]
just to add something, in my church in Bright Saturday, everyone (men and woman) read part of the revelation.
It's the same in my church as well. My priest is very strict and he followes every rule in the church so I think this is actually allowed.
We also don't have to go up to the manglia when we are reading it that's why I am guessing it's allowed to read revelations and not any part else during the holy week.
Reality might be different, but that shouldn't be the base of the discussion. In our church in the sunday school pascha services all reads, all the girls and boys. If you ask me this is more a cultural issue than a biblical one (don't take the pauline verse and apply it randomly to anything without considering the context!!!, if women should remain silent, how could they praise and chant along?). An example is that in some other orthodox churches the women are part of the chorus, in our church never (or rarely).
I will wait until Mina replies
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]]najoust sa ehryi `nte Myna erouw[/coptic]
I will wait until Mina replies
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
is that ME?! :)
What i really think is that women"may" read...but it's normally not done. The only thing i would consider is what they do in monasteries in egypt...which i would want to hear from anyone about. because i know NO ONE can get into the monasteries specially nun ones. soo if anyone knows what happens, please tell us.
ALso i have to make it clear and strongly agree with His Erof. Only ranks of deacons oghnostoses or higher can read the liturgical readings....i guess you can get away with wearing a tonia and reading. ALSO this is in liturgical services. Pascha is not really a full liturgical services. it's similar to the Agpeya hours.
About readings the "homilies"...i know that those are normally for priests to read. like the senixar keda. most of the time the priest read it...but then in some situations the deacons do.
aijoust ebol e;bytk alla ]nou `n]]ma] nemak qen pekmoust[/coptic]
I waited for you but now I don't agree with you on your point
[coptic]`mmon `cse an `nte nihiomi ws `nniws `nte tenek`klycia sa ehryi nennau `nte ]iagpia [/coptic]
No - it shouldn't be (is not right) that women read the readings of our Church even the hours of Agpia
[coptic]tenek`klycia ouparadotikoc te ouoh niparadococ cecen] `mmwou ejen pailogoc `nte ]epictoly erem`nKorin;oc[/coptic]
Our Church is a traditional one and the rites are based on the verse of the Epistle to the Corinthians
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]Myna>
aijoust ebol e;bytk alla ]nou `n]]ma] nemak qen pekmoust[/coptic]
I waited for you but now I don't agree with you on your point
[coptic]`mmon `cse an `nte nihiomi ws `nniws `nte tenek`klycia sa ehryi nennau `nte ]iagpia [/coptic]
No - it shouldn't be (is not right) that women read the readings of our Church even the hours of Agpia
[coptic]tenek`klycia ouparadotikoc te ouoh niparadococ cecen] `mmwou ejen pailogoc `nte ]epictoly erem`nKorin;oc[/coptic]
Our Church is a traditional one and the rites are based on the verse of the Epistle to the Corinthians
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
:). well it's just my opinion. it can be changed. even thoo i think so, i don't think they need to go up on the mangaleia. sometimes when our abouna let's them read he leads them where they are. on the women's side. it's like that post a while ago about the a priest leading the girls when chanting evlogimenos el-kebera.
And that I didn't agree with [coptic](eulogymenoc pinis])[/coptic]
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]nem vai `mpa]ma] nemaf[/coptic]
And that I didn't agree with [coptic](eulogymenoc pinis])[/coptic]
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
well as i remember, shady said that the deacons chose to learn el-hoos el-keiahki elkebir (which is in fact hard as i learned it and said it once) and the girls learned evlogimenos with abouna. and when it came time to say it the deacons said that and the girls said that with abouna. there was nothing wrong with that. because it's all hymns. i can see why don't you agree on this reading in pascha....and i do agree with you in essence. but what happened with evlogimenos is fully fine. hymns are people's response. you can't tell the people don't say your own response because we are the ones who always did it!!!
At my church on bright Saturday the mic travels in the whole church
In other words, there must be a certain interpration to the verse...
I'm just wondering...
Why are women allowed to chant along and say the replies in church then? (keeping in mind Cor 5 :14-15)
In other words, there must be a certain interpration to the verse...
You are exactly right and I did mention this, but perhaps you overlooked it. I said that this verse is meant for women reading/teaching in the church. It does not apply to singing or chanting-- that is for the whole congregation.
In other words, we all have our specific roles in the church and they are all valuable. It simply was not given to women to teach in the church worship service. But nonetheless, they have many other services in which they may participate.
This is in accord with 1 Corinthians 12 which describes the importance of the Body of Christ and all its individual members-- that each member is important and contributes something unique and essential to the body.
Why are women allowed to chant along and say the replies in church then? (keeping in mind Cor 5 :14-15)
In other words, there must be a certain interpration to the verse...
there are deacons responses and there are people response. there are also Priest prayers. deacon's can't do what the priest does and the people can't do what the deacons do. it's that simple. all have their own duties.
now let's stay on topic.
Every year during the Pascha, the priest of my church (who is also my FOC), makes me read one of the Paschal readings. Yesterday I read one of the prophesies. When someone objected to this (in public) last year Abouna said there was nothing wrong about it.
It might be significant to say that my priest is very strict about everything that goes on in church.
Why has this thread died all of a sudden?
well....because the answer is as ALWAYS.....all have their own duties in our Church. for more details, visit the links below.
Why has this thread died all of a sudden?
Because the Pascha is over, and everyone just wants to eat meat, and binge of fata and ma7shee with boiled eggs grilled in sweet butter, and drink and be merry.
Let's raise it again next year - same time same place and see if we can progress this??
I think once people start eating meat, they lose concentration and are happy with anything.
[quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=7837.msg101944#msg101944 date=1240025008]
Why has this thread died all of a sudden?
Because the Pascha is over, and everyone just wants to eat meat, and binge of fata and ma7shee with boiled eggs grilled in sweet butter, and drink and be merry.
Let's raise it again next year - same time same place and see if we can progress this??
I think once people start eating meat, they lose concentration and are happy with anything.
I can't help but saying: lol... I try to avoid using such language on this forums to set an example, but I couldn't help it in this situation.
I just hate how people make up their own rules without actually knowing what can be done and what cannot.
Oh, and for the record, I read another prophesy during Good Friday and Bright Saturday (night of the Apocalpse). Am I the only one that finds this normal?
I am sure that all of the threads went quiet because most participants were busy in Church over the weekend. Indeed many forums shut down entirely for the Paschal weekend.
This is still an interesting thread, and at the least it should be possible to find some bishops who will provide guidance about whether women are allowed to read during the Paschal readings, or at other times, outside of the Liturgy. If a mixed group of people were reading the Agpeya prayers together would a woman be allowed to read the lections?
Certainly other Orthodox Churches have mixed choirs, therefore there is not an absolute Orthodox prohibition on women leading the congregation in this way, though it may well be that there is a prohibition in the Coptic tradition.
I would want to add, as I have in other places, that in any case service in the Church does not mean only or even mostly service in the Liturgy. A Church which only serves the Liturgy and does not serve its own people and the people around it is not properly living the Christian life, therefore there is a great deal of scope, almost infinite, to find avenues of genuine and important service of God beyond speaking in the Liturgy.
Father Peter
He covers the aspects of the Apocalypse night readings and the Coptic Prophecies of Holy Week
here was the original question-
I would like to hear your views related to the issue "letting women to share in the readings during Apocalypse night (Revelation)." I have been in different States in US and have seen girls read chapters from the Holy Book of Revelation and sections from prophecies and prayers during that night.
Recently, in our church, some girls asked to share in reading some of the prophecies, etc, and were not allowed. Actually, while one of them was reading, a deacon interrupted her saying this is wrong and not allowed as St. Paul said in his letters. I felt the girl was offended and two of them left the church that night.
If this is a critical issue to some girls (who were born in the States) who think that this is discrimination and may get offended when deacons stop them saying "the voice of women should not...etc. Which is better to let some of them share reading while sitting in their places, or get offended and let them think of the Coptic Church as a church discriminating against women? Which is better to let some of them share with reading few sections or stop and offend them and even not care if they hate the church and seek other churches with American friends whenever they get the chance to do?
There are really two issues here:
One is the fact that having women reading in the church is against the teaching of the Holy Bible. "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says" (1 Cor 14:34). The Coptic Church is not discriminating against women. On the contrary it is a biblical church. I want to go a step further and say that not only women should not be allowed reading in the Church but also not any man just because he is a male should be reading during Divine Liturgy. In the orders of deacons there is a special rank for readers in our church called 'Anaghnostis'. Males holding this rank or above are the ones who should be allowed to read with understanding in the church. So if the church in its organization has a special rank for male readers, how can we open it to anyone to stand in the church and read? Let alone women whom the Holy Bible clearly states otherwise? So instead of saying and unfortunately promoting wrongfully that our church is discriminating against women, we need to learn the right teachings of the holy Bible and the church and relay them to those who accuse us.
The other issue is the incident that happened in your church which is really regretful. To remedy a wrong situation with a wrong reaction is not really a solution. You said the girls had asked to share in the readings and were not allowed. I am not clear on how they ended up reading? Did they read on their own without asking permission? The deacon who took on his shoulder to intervene, did he ask the attending priest and got his approval to do so. To embarrass others in the middle of church at the time we are reading the Holy Bible is not gaining anyone but deviates our attention from the Holy Bible at hand and creates tension and bitterness and as I hear the girls left the church offended. This situation could have been handled wisely with a spirit of love and humility instead of deacons assigning themselves enforcers of the 'law'.
QT, you are too negative.
I am sure that all of the threads went quiet because most participants were busy in Church over the weekend. Indeed many forums shut down entirely for the Paschal weekend.
This is still an interesting thread, and at the least it should be possible to find some bishops who will provide guidance about whether women are allowed to read during the Paschal readings, or at other times, outside of the Liturgy. If a mixed group of people were reading the Agpeya prayers together would a woman be allowed to read the lections?
Certainly other Orthodox Churches have mixed choirs, therefore there is not an absolute Orthodox prohibition on women leading the congregation in this way, though it may well be that there is a prohibition in the Coptic tradition.
I would want to add, as I have in other places, that in any case service in the Church does not mean only or even mostly service in the Liturgy. A Church which only serves the Liturgy and does not serve its own people and the people around it is not properly living the Christian life, therefore there is a great deal of scope, almost infinite, to find avenues of genuine and important service of God beyond speaking in the Liturgy.
Father Peter
How am I being negative? If a woman wants to read in Church, its OK. I'm not bothered at all. I'm just asking why can't they read during the Pascha? I don't even have a personal opinion on this subject.
I just think the thread went quiet because the Pascha is over and everyone's so busy eating meat, having fun eating easter eggs etc, and enjoying the good food that they won't really be bothered about this until next year.
As you and I and others have said, it is a busy time of year, that is the reason everything Orthodox goes quiet.
Father Peter