Hi,
(I just modified this as i don't want to sound as if I'm generalising)....
I know this is a sensitive topic, but please be patient with me and help me understand your points of view. I'm extremely curious to know, and in no way do I disrespect any member of the Church..
I'd like to know why Coptic Christians "Deify" their clergy? It seems to me that whilst I've been in the CoC, that a priest can get away with anything, and even criticism by simply using his priesthood as a means to escape any rebuke.
Is that right?
Is it right that Copts tell me "no no.. you shouldnt complain about a priest, because he's a PRIEST!"
Yes, he is a priest, and should be held to the highest standards. Let's forget about priesthood - for one second.
I see NO reason why I shouldn't have a priest or bishop arrested if they've broken the law. If he is a citizen and holds a passport, he should be judged by common law.
Yet, why is it a Bishop and maybe a Priest (not all of them of course) in the CoC seem to put themselves SO HIGH up above everyone else that they think that they shouldn't be judged? They come in the mass telling us "Forgive me for my sins" and they prostrate before the congregation. They sing "Lord forgive us 1000's of times in the mass", and yet when it actually comes to admitting their sins or being accountable for their actions, they just play the "Im a priest card" and pretend they are immune to ANY criticism.
Why is that?
Surely, if they are our fathers we should be able to have an honest open dialogue with them? We should be able to tell them that what they've done is wrong (MORALLY/LEGALLY wrong)?
Where IS the humility then in them by not accepting criticism?
And what seems to give them the God given right to do something wrong and get away with it is the Coptic Congregation that seem to deify priests and bishops, as if they are above the law, above criticism and responsibility for their actions.
Let's put the Church aside for a small second. What is stopping me going to the police and having a Bishop / priest sued for slander/bearing false witness and theft?
Please tell me??
I can hear you say "Because he is a priest of God" - yes, and I am a son of God, and you are a daughter/son of God also! Is his hand that offers me the Body of Christ greater than my mouth that has received it?
Comments
But I think you must understand that mostly we respect their POSITION regardless of the PERSON!
I mean I had an experience where someone was talking about a priest in a manner I found inapproprate, I told the person to watch his words, he said why? I said: because in the end he's a priest!
That doens't mean he can do no wrong, nor does it mean I can't critizise him and point him to his errors, but the issue at hand is HOW do I do this? And also WHY? am I doing it with a pure heart? do I have a personal grudge? etc.
When we stop respecting our priests and giving them a certain special regard, then the whole institution of the church might lose its place!
Look at it this way: many people critizise Mubarak, I have no problem with that, I do too when he does something I think is bad...
but when they make fun of him or when someone like Lieberman says: he can go to hell! Then he offends not just Mubarak, but the whole country! He offends Egypt and all Egyptians by showing disrespect to its president.
When we start treating priests with disrespect, the priesthood itself, not just that one priest is disrespected in my opinion.
There can be criticism BUT in a fitting, and respectful manner..
I would love to hear your views...
God bless
Look, I agree some might deify priests, and view them as infalliable almost, this could happen.
But I think you must understand that mostly we respect their POSITION regardless of the PERSON!
I mean I had an experience where someone was talking about a priest in a manner I found inapproprate, I told the person to watch his words, he said why? I said: because in the end he's a priest!
That doens't mean he can do no wrong, nor does it mean I can't critizise him and point him to his errors, but the issue at hand is HOW do I do this? And also WHY? am I doing it with a pure heart? do I have a personal grudge? etc.
When we stop respecting our priests and giving them a certain special regard, then the whole institution of the church might lose its place!
Look at it this way: many people critizise Mubarak, I have no problem with that, I do too when he does something I think is bad...
but when they make fun of him or when someone like Lieberman says: he can go to hell! Then he offends not just Mubarak, but the whole country! He offends Egypt and all Egyptians by showing disrespect to its president.
When we start treating priests with disrespect, the priesthood itself, not just that one priest is disrespected in my opinion.
There can be criticism BUT in a fitting, and respectful manner..
I would love to hear your views...
God bless
Criticism is respectful, but unfortunately, when you have to tell a priest or bishop "you lied" and "bore false witness" or tell him "you stole" - that may come across as being disrespectful.
We are not talking about telling a priest that he sang badly, or got theolgical concepts wrong or right.. I wouldnt care, and I wouldnt criticise him over stuff like that.
I mean, when a priest breaks the law, it surprises me why many Copts say "no. you shouldnt do anything - because he's a priest! and God will deal with him".
i have 2 points,
1. it's not only the coptic church that has this problem. i have seen it in lots of other churches as well.
the best solution to the general problem is prevention.
one of the main reasons some clergy (btw, not any i currently know) become 'above' the congregation is because they are isolated there... by the congregation.
before you say 'i would never do that' let me ask you,
do your pray for the clergy every day?
do you help with things that need doing in the church (visiting the sick, clearing up after church, organising meetings, sending emails etc?
do you help with the priests' personal life, eg making sure people know when it's his birthday, checking if his grass needs cutting etc, or helping tasoni (if he is not a monk) making food for church, or helping with transport to church for old people etc etc.
do you make it your ambition to stop any gossip you hear in the church, and instead you encourage everyone you meet in their own spriritual life and prayers?
do you spontaneously pray with your church friends or organise Bible studies together, taking the difficult questions to a deacon or priest?
we ARE the church, we are not here to be served by 'the church'.
2. ok, so you can say 'yes' to all of the above (!), now if there's still a problem, Jesus left us with really clear instructions on how to deal with it (it applies to clergy and other Christians as well. unfortunately i have had to do this recently with someone very dear to me (non-coptic) who has done some really dodgy stuff, mainly to do with money...)
matthew 18:15-22 tells us how we must proceed when there is a big problem, first privately, then with a friend, then, lastly take the problem to the church. this does not mean shouting out at a sunday meeting, but a small meeting with some church leaders and you and the person you have a problem with. i would personally recommend fasting and paying before going to such a meeting as it is the devil who wants to destroy us, not that person we have problems with, and we must pray for protection from pride and for the other person's soul.
if this doesn't work, remember the church belongs to God, not to you or me, and it is not for us to 'force' God to judge his church. 1 corinthians 6:1-7 prohibits lawsuits among believers. so if you get ripped off, hurt or badly disappointed, it is not up to you to fix it. remember how much our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ suffered because he did not smash all his enemies when they oppressed him. be glad of the honour of suffering likewise.
ok, so if you know a priest or anyone else who is about to murder or abuse someone, i would not expect you to keep silent, there is nothing wrong with calling the police if you peep through a crack in the door and see someone holding a gun to someone's head. i mean you can be sensible in an emergency, but be careful to follow the principles outlined in 1 corinthians 6.
just so you know, i realy do understand your pain, my situation with that other person is getting to that stage, so far nothing worked, but it is not for us to take that person to court, even though we have every right under the law to do so. God's judgement, when it comes, is awful and terrifying, so be in no hurry to see God avenging you for the wrongs done to you, instead pray for God's mercy, for we are all sinners.
to summarise, prevent clergy being isolated, pray for everyone and follow our Lord's instructions and example when you are wronged.
pls let me know if this does not cover your queries, maybe i or someone elso could answer you more fully.
What about the Catholic church who was sued for millions by the catholic faithful over the homosexuality scandals? Were they wrong for suing the CHurch?
And the RC did something really weird that just drove everyone crazy, and made it lose MANY believers: it denied the claims at 1st. It did that "Im a priest, and you are disrespecting the House of God by disrespecting MEEEE" attitude.
And what did it gain by doing that? Nothing.
What is wrong with suing a priest or a bishop? I mean, what if he does something SO bad or careless that he doesnt repent over it and it leads to someone being killed or injured?
Why are you, Mabsoota, treating them or giving them different laws than what we are goverened by. I feel the problem is that they do BIG mistakes simply because they know they can get away with it.
I like this topic, I find it very interesting... lol and more of a question you would ask!
if a priest breaks the law of the land, you have all right to put him in front of the court of the land to be judged according to that law of that land! there is absolutely nothing wrong with that! but put in mind you that you have to prove the opposing side also, many things appear much different than they really are... but if you are assured of your case than by all means you are free to do so!
if a priest breaks the law of the church, including dogma stealing from the church and such... you have all right to bring him in front of the court of the church, so that he might be judged according to Her rules! again you have to collect your proofs, go to the head of the priests, the bishop, or if a bishop to his "leader" the patriarch the pope, and if with the pope himself, you go to the secretary of the synod, anba Bishoy, who will bring it up to the synod!
I love our church, because there is always someone higher... to everyone there is a leader! and as in the courts and the law of the land, you have to prove your point one hundred percent, by documents, by witnesses, by etc... if priests could get away with whatever, then there would be no priests who are excommunicated, which there are a few... there would be no bishops who are put in a monastery and are not allowed to serve outside, where there are a few of that too... if even the church and the synod view the pope unable to take care of the church as a righteous and mentally stable shepared, they would take care of the papacy in their own hands... which also happened before, i cant remember which pope... but he had alzihmers i think, and the synod took care of the papacy, yet they didnt tell the whole world about it!
now if you may... lets both get in this mentality of priest congregation member relationship... which will bring me to the hand statement you said... kissing the hand started only as a sign of respect... you even see it whether Christian or muslim, that the son will kiss his father's hand, so do we, as viewing the priest as a father we kiss his hand... then people started contemplating about it, and said its because he is holding the body of the Almighty... but as for you... if your father does something that you disagree with, you wouldn't put him in jail... but rather discuss it with him, and try to resolve it as much as you can out of court... if all fails, and your father is too crooked... you would do the "right" thing, which your heart and mind will be comfortable with... in which you can do in this situation also!
Truly The Christ arose Himself from the dead!
Akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
qt, i am not saying we shouldn't sue priests. i am saying we shouldn't sue any Christians, priests or anyone else.
i know that's a bit extreme, but i think these people should be 'tried' like superman suggests, by the church. then, if it's something serious like murder or child abuse, the whole church could take the offending person to the police, and it would take the pressure off the victim or family to do it.
if it's something like fraud or stuff that you wouldn't go to prison for, it should stay in the church.
so you see, keeping it in the church could actually bring more shame and more punishment on the offending person (if it turns out they are guilty), it's not at all about covering things up, i don't think Jesus was thinking of covering up serious Church scandals in matthew 18, but about the church being responsible for it's own discipline.
then if it's something like a poor grasp of doctrine or an interpersonal clash, the church could (should) mediate, educate and rehabilitate.
what do others think?
good points, superman.
qt, i am not saying we shouldn't sue priests. i am saying we shouldn't sue any Christians, priests or anyone else.
But why? That, I can tell you, is the worst thing you could possibly do.
The Church will not give the victim (a member of the public) his fair rights. Not at all. The bishop will defend his priests, and the priest will generally be protected by the immunity given to him by the Church. There will never be any justice.
For domestic cases, sure - I think I can agree with you on this. 110%. We should keep it internal. But where a priest does something wrong, terribly wrong, legally or morally wrong, and you take this up with his superior, then I can guarantee that any bishop will want to show you that you are in fact the person who is the criminal. They will change it around and tell you to forgive, forget, that no one is perfect. But they will NOT apologise.
They will NEVER admit their mistakes, and if they did, a "sorry" will never bring you justice. OK, so we agree. But I cannot help but feel even in serious cases, the deification of priests, by themselves, and that promoted by others will only lead to them getting off very lightly. In fact, a Bishop once lied and did something very cruel, and I spoke to abouna's son about the situation. His son told me "ohh!! WOW.. he is a brilliant Bishop! He answered very wisely by lying!"
What kind of response of that? Are we now condoning lying and bearing false witness??
Its the people in the Church that deify them.. and it is really so dangerous. No.. that's NOT true, keeping it in the Church means that you've been conned, and you havent received ANY justice. Who cares about if they can speak english or not, or whether they know if The Holy Communion is a Miracle or a Mystery.. I'm not bothered. I care that if they hurt or harm anyone of my friends and family by committing a crime, I'll not hesitate to bring the full weight of the law on them.
But I keep having that passage from St Paul come to mind, not least because there are priests who have to deal with the hurtful and criminal actions of the people as well. Indeed in the Church there is scope for anyone to harm anyone.
(1Co 6:1-8) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to be judged before the unjust: and not before the saints? Know you not that the saints shall judge this world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know you not that we shall judge angels? How much more things of this world? If therefore you have judgments of things pertaining to this world, set them to judge who are the most despised in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you any one wise man that is able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother: and that before unbelievers. Already indeed there is plainly a fault among you, that you have law suits one with another. Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? But you do wrong and defraud: and that to your brethren.
Now perhaps it is that there is not one wise man among us to whom we can go for a judgement. But I know that I would not feel very good about taking another Christian, especially an Orthodox one, to a secular court. Certainly not until all the avenues within the Church had been explored and exhausted. But perhaps I am fortunate. I have a bishop I love very much who has never done me any harm.
What would happen if he did act in a criminal manner towards me? I am not sure. It would surely depend on the case. It has always been hard to bring a bishop to account, on the other hand this is to prevent malicious accusations, but on the other hand it would always be good for there to be one clergyman in each diocese whose job was to be an advocate on behalf of the people, both dealing with worthless charges, and also promoting the causes of those who have genuinely been hurt.
The best case is therefore that issues between Christians are dealt with within the Church, but if those who should be guaranteeing justice are the ones implicated in an injustice then I can sympathise with QT's obviously strongly felt objections, and I am not sure that the Church, our Church, is best organised to be self critical. Perhaps all clergy - even though I know that I am not a priest who wishes a subservient congregation - should ensure that they have a means for those in their care to seek justice freely and without fear or favour.
Father Peter
about the rest, i can't really comment, i think it depends on the indivdual case. i have seen a lot of good things in our church and think that generally the church should be ok at judging these things.
if you want my opinion about individual cases, please send a personal message
(i wouldn't want to discuss details publicly)
i am really sorry u had bad experiences, and pray God will guide you.
Im sure many priests and bishops are great.
However, this is not a popularity contest. It is real life, and unfortunately, Priests depend too much, AS WELL AS the Congregation that they are immune to secular litigation brought on by another Orthodox Christian by virtue of them being Orthodox.
One thing that i've learnt is that if a Priest does something morally wrong, or has compromised on his Christian values, he will not apologise for it. What I've learnt is they end up justifying it. That's the really odd thing. I'm saying this because the channels which you are suggesting for dialogue and reconciliation in the Church DEPEND on the fact that one of the parties HAS to admit fault and say "sorry".
But this is not the case. A bishop who is at fault, and I've seen this MANY times, will either not give you the time of day, or use the miserable excuse of "you cannot talk to me that way, I'm a bishop" and terminate ANY sort of dialogue.
When I'm mad, I never regret being quiet. When I'm angry, I count to 10 to calm down, and I never regret that.. but for one particular Bishop who really caused me ENORMOUS misery in my life, i honestly regret not taking legal action against this particular bishop. I really regret not doing that (God forgive me, but this is something I'm really battling with). I regret going through the Church for any sort of reconciliation with a member of the clergy. That just makes a mockery of the holy sacrament of reconcilation and communion. It is like going to court to press charges against the judge who is presiding over the case. You'll get little from that. I can assure you!
And when I went to speak with him, a priest told me "Oh.. you do understand that he is a representative of God?".
That is SUCH a lame thing to say. Does he also realise that I am also a representative of God, and that it will be very hard to represent God after being considered part of the same body of Christ as a bishop who is careless with people's lives?
The truth will never be said in Church when a member of the Clergy is at fault. Their mistakes will never be admitted, and if they are admitted, they will never be corrected honestly, and they will somehow end up justifying all their evil deeds with some spiritual jargon talk and make you feel that you are a sinner for not being spiritually capable of handling the catastrophe that results from their self-imposed wickedness on your life!!
I really hope no one ever has to go through the misery the clergy put me through, out of their own wickedness, as much as I have been through.
The relationship of clergy and parishioners has a unique dynamics. It is hard to find an equivalent off. Though metaphors such as shepherd and flock (as in John 21 “feed my sheep”) might give us some glimpse there are also other day to day gestures.
I marveled every Sunday when Abouna pass the uirban (blessed bread). Not only does he go around and call every one by name when he gives the uirban but also moves his hand quickly when we try to kiss his hand as we receive the uirban. One way to look at it might be the parishioners respect the clergy (or in your words though it might not be an accurate description “defy the clergy”) while the clergy serve the parishioners in humility as Christ said “For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others”. There is such great harmony in this relationship of respect and humility where both the clergy and parishioners compete to be the least. He shows us true servant hood and also humility by denying himself of a kiss which he considers himself unworthy of. It is none other but this servant hood and humility which drive Copts to respect (again in your words, which I don’t think describe the relationship, ‘deify their clergy’).
Now the above might sound a bit idealized, and it is. Although it is not very common one might see this loving relationship being disrupted. Although the church which our Lord found with his blood is perfect human presence corrupts everything. In such cases there is a democratic system in the church which ensures guarantee a check-and –balance system. Throughout our church history we see deacons, priests, and even bishops being anathemized and excommunicated for heresy, abusing their position or many other reasons. Knowing this history of accountability it would be unfair to accuse the church of being a safe haven to perpetrators.
Since we have many examples of clergies who fall into heresy let as look at a different misconduct: Bishop Youannes of Niqius was suspended from his duties, by a council of bishops (698), because he ordered to beat a monk who committed adultery, and the monk died. I hope this example wouldn’t come across as an out of dated one but an illustration of accountability in the church since the early times.
Qt I truly sympathize with your case. I hope whatever happened to you would not bias your outlook. It might be easy for us to preach to you about forgiveness and letting the Lord avenge, for we are not in your shoes. The fact of the matter is there is no one who can hurt us more than those whom we love. I believe you are a true lover of the church. Maybe that’s why your hurt is great.
I will pray for you!!!
Remember me in your prayers.
In Christ
Theophilus
You are right. It is because I do respect the Church that this hurts very much. It is because for me the sacrament of reconciliation TRULY is something Holy, that it drives me crazy when I see priests or bishops "acting".
I remember once a priest really hurt a friend of mine. I mean, he did something UNBELIEVABLE. It was beyond cruel. So, we both went to the church during the vespers and we said to ourselves "OK. .we'll talk to him today, and tell him how much he hurt us".
Anyway, we arrived early, and he didn't even give us the time of day. Then on Sunday, we went to the mass early, and we were at Church before anyone else came. We both wanted to have Holy Communion, and we felt it would be hypocritical to have it if we were not at peace with the priest.
I met the priest on his way to the mass. He didnt even want to see me. He was so rude and abusive with me, and ALL i told him was "We'd like to make peace with you BEFORE you start the mass".
He shouted at me, told me to get lost, and he went off and prayed the mass.
Of course now he feels bad.. i see it. He's very polite now. I guess he was angry at the time or something. I think he probably feels embarassed.
But what I'm thinking in my head is this:
a) He is going to pray a mass - and do what? What is a mass about?
b) Is reconciliation an important part of the mass? Doesn't this make a mockery of this sacrament?
c) When he says "I've sinned, forgive me" before the congregation during the mass - this is a lie. He doesnt mean it. He is not at all looking for reconcilation, nor forgiveness, nor anything. Its just acting.
This is ONE story out of HUNDREDS that i've seen where this priest is actually one of the "GOOD" examples. The rest are just remarkable.
I treat the body and blood of Christ like REALLY the REAL body and blood of Christ, and the sacrament of reconciliation/confession/repentance as something real.
But when I see bishops and priests "ACTING" in this way, it disturbs me. It really does.
It is this type of acting that nullifies any respect i have for thinking that keeping a problem internally in the Church and exhausting all means of peace is a useful and correct approach.
With all due respect, but it is not I who has shown disrespect to the Clergy. It is their own actions that really disrespect the Church, the Holy Sacraments, and their priesthood. This is a disaster.
If you want, you can multiply this small story by a million to get any idea of what other priests and bishops have behaved in the past with confronting their own mistakes or complaints from other members of the congregation.
All I can say is that my own bishop has taught me that if someone in my congregation and I are in a broken relationship then that should be dealt with before I celebrate the Liturgy.
There are times when a person does not wish to be reconciled, and as a priest I must humble myself before that person, and then if that person will not accept my apology, and reparations even, then I will have done all that I can do. But I am aware that I should not wilfully celebrate the Liturgy while I have not done all I can to be in a good relationship with those on whose behalf I celebrate.
I hope that I would never treat any person in a dismissive manner, nor continue to cause them hurt when aware that I had done so. May the Lord give me that grace to overcome my own inherent weakness and sinfulness.
Father Peter
I am very sorry that you have had these experiences.
All I can say is that my own bishop has taught me that if someone in my congregation and I are in a broken relationship then that should be dealt with before I celebrate the Liturgy.
There are times when a person does not wish to be reconciled, and as a priest I must humble myself before that person, and then if that person will not accept my apology, and reparations even, then I will have done all that I can do. But I am aware that I should not wilfully celebrate the Liturgy while I have not done all I can to be in a good relationship with those on whose behalf I celebrate.
I hope that I would never treat any person in a dismissive manner, nor continue to cause them hurt when aware that I had done so. May the Lord give me that grace to overcome my own inherent weakness and sinfulness.
Father Peter
yes, I've heard some good things about Anba Seraphim. You're lucky to be raised this way (spiritually).
But, Fr. Peter - it REALLY disturbs me when a priest is the one that doesn't want to reconcile, or he doesnt want to apologise.
This is VERY strange to pray the mass in such a situation. It feels really bizarre. Its as if we all wear our liturgical clothes and pretend to be someone we're not.
The funny thing is this: During the mass, we pray for the raising of the crops, for our leaders, for world peace, for peace in the Church, for our clergy, deacons etc.. we do not separate the world and its problems from the Church. On the contrary, we are aware of the problems we face in the world and we put it before God's alter. However, not if you are a priest. lol
A priest will make many mistakes, but he should be leading by example and I believe that it is much better to make a mistake as a priest and then show humility, and repentance if that is required, to put the situation right since this does not undermine the priest's position (as if he has a position to be preserved), but it makes him more loved, surely, and shows his family how they are also to deal with such situations.
On the other hand, and I am not saying this about your circumstances because I do not know them, there is a requirement for the family of the Church to forgive their priest and bear with many things in silence even, as the priest should bear many difficult things which his people might do. Otherwise everyone is concentrating on the wrongs that have been done them.
This does not mean that there are not wrongs which need to be dealt with. If I mistakenly give a junior deacon something when I should have given it to the senior deacon then that senior deacon might feel annoyed, but it is part of his own spiritual path to deal with such frustration and swallow his pride. 'Indeed I am not worthy even to be a deacon', he might profitably say. But if the priest seems to deliberately humiliate him on many occasions then it would seem to me to be reasonable that he asks what the problem is which is preventing him serving according to the order to which he had been called.
If a priest shares something which he has heard in the confession with someone other than his bishop then this is a serious matter and the priest should also be able to be spoken with, and if not apologetic, and repentant even, then there should be some avenue to seek a proper response. I am very fortunate that while my bishop is supportive of me, nevertheless if one of my own church family contacted him and said that I had been sharing personal matters with others then I would be disciplined.
We all need to be held to account. The priesthood is not a special class of people, it is just one form of service in the Church. And the priesthood exists, among other things, to enable all members of the Church to serve and prosper and grow. If this goes wrong then the priest needs some others, trusted deacons, priests and bishops, who can help him fulfill his proper ministry. I am truly sorry that this has not been the case in your own situation. I am truly blessed that I have an elder brother in Christ, a deacon who has served with me and still serves with me, who tells me when I am going wrong. And I have a bishop who is interested in the success of my own ministry and so also corrects me when I make mistakes.
I hope that you are in a better situation now?
Father Peter
Yes, I was thinking the same as you about how the priests should be an example.
Am I better or not after what happened? Not really.
Not at all in fact.
But, if you look at the topic for this thread - i chose it very carefully: "Deification" of the Clergy. This is the problem. Had our priests not been Deified from the beginning, they would have been limited by what they could get away with, and how accountable they are!
I don't know why Egyptians deify them!!
Hi Fr. Peter,
Yes, I was thinking the same as you about how the priests should be an example.
Am I better or not after what happened? Not really.
Not at all in fact.
But, if you look at the topic for this thread - i chose it very carefully: "Deification" of the Clergy. This is the problem. Had our priests not been Deified from the beginning, they would have been limited by what they could get away with, and how accountable they are!
I don't know why Egyptians deify them!!
I don't blame you QT for starting this post. It's true.....but i found out that it's really the opposite here in the U.S. The priest in many cases and churches are not respected as much by the people who come from Egypt. I can explain more but i don't want to get into details.
Do they wish to deify because it puts all of their decisions in the hands of a priest? rather than in their own hands? I don't know.
But - we should be careful as to how we treat priests.
The deification of priests, is not good for the priests either.. even if they don't really do much harm. There are SO many problems between priests in the Church (jealousy, and whose son/daughter they are with respect to their FoC, and if you don't confess to one particular priest, you've offended him).
I remind myself of Saint Paul who said "I did not baptise you in my name, but in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" when he was confronted himself with this issue. Everyone was considering themselves a follower of a certain disciple.
We do the same with our priests, and the priests ENCOURAGE that! YEP!!! I hasten to add!!
They really do encourage it. Not all of them. THe ones i know couldnt really care less so long as u confess. They are not bothered.
I remember once, a bishop whom I loved dearly did something that really made me realise how powerful the priesthood is in the eyes of Egyptians:
A monk came to our Church who was not really a monk. I guess he just pretended to be a monk. I'm not really sure what his problem was. Anyway, we all felt he was a bit of a fruitcake. I admit that... but I didnt think anything of it.
Anyway, one day, he stood in Church and wouldnt let the deacons pass whilst they were doing a procession at the end of the mass (i think it was to celebrate the baptism). Actually, I admit - i thought the sight was quite funny. I really did.
He was blocking all the deacons from passing by.
Anyway, the head deacon, rather than passing around him, asked him to move. He didnt move. Then the deacon grabbed the monk and started to hit him. The monk was brilliant... i mean, he was one tough monk. He was definately in the wrong profession. I'd have suggested he takes up boxing professionally.
Anyway, the monk grabbed the deacon in a locked arm curl, and started to punch him. The women were screaming so much. The people were screaming... I was just saying to myself that the Coptic Church is anything BUT boring... and then something really weird happened:
The bishop picks up a microphone and tells everyone: "Do not fear. This is not a real monk."
lol..
Ya3ni.. this was the REAL problem for the bishop... wasn't it? That people have to respect monks? It didnt matter about the Church, nor the fact that both were in the wrong.. not at all. What mattered was that a monk was seen doing something wrong, and that "image" shouldnt be propagated to the population.
I'm in NO WAY judging the bishop.. he's literally my uncle (lol), but can you see where the priorities lie for him?
What I find more disturbing is the use of violence in your anecdote. And I find it disturbing that Ethiopian and Coptic monks fight in Jerusalem. I could not imagine, short of someone having a knife, that there is need for violence in the Church.
You raise an interesting question about why anyone would want to so elevate a priest that he becomes the figure you describe? But this is an issue in many religious situations and so there are lots of materials which describe a similar situation. In some Protestant groupings in the 80s there was an issue with what was called 'heavy shepherding'. This was where a healthy development of spiritual guidance became unbalanced and those being shepherded came to expect their shepherds to provide guidance over every aspect of their lives - even the choice of wallpaper, while this harmed the shepherds by placing too much power in their hands. It led to some cult like situations developing.
What is the difference between spiritual discipleship and spiritual dependency?
Why is it easier to depend on someone rather than to allow that person to make us a disciple, that is someone who has a personal and unique relationship with Christ?
On the other hand, how is it possible for a priest to allow dependency to develop?
And that is apart from the possibility of pride and arrogance having a role. But this dependency thing works both ways. If I have many followers then I can perhaps come to find my self-worth in those followers. I don't want to lose any as it diminishes me. I don't want to seem stupid in front of my followers. Maybe I even like having control over them, though I convince myself that I am their spiritual guide.
And my followers like having a strong priest and consider my rudeness as tough love, or even a prophetic spirituality. It is easy to excuse anything because my followers find their self-worth in me. How can they admit that the priest they have been following and obeying is actually sometimes sinful and hurtful or worse? So they say 'our Church needs a strong leader'. And those who highlight my weaknesses are actually destabilising the contract between priest and followers and so they must be silenced.
This could all happen to a priest, and a congregation. He needs many prayers, and it is best if structures are in place at the beginning to allow a warning to be raised with a critical friend of the priest and the congregation.
A priest needs to be constantly asking if he is creating dependents or disciples, but honest and faithful friends of the congregation need to be asking if they wish to become dependents or disciples.
Father Peter
I guess that it is always possible for any religious organisation to allow unhealthy structures and relationships to develop from time to time.
Anything like this is not from God. It is allowed to develop to appease egos, and to accommodate for weaknesses. No.. you are right. I am clear in my message below that the priests I know couldnt care if you confess to them or not. They don't take it personally. But a lot do. I also know a lot that were starting problems out of jealousy! Well, as I said, we're anything "But" boring!. I think all this boils down to is egos. Thanks. And it really needs to be addressed!! What made Saint Paul say that he was "GLAD" that he only baptised a few people.. and not even that! He was glad that he didnt have disciples nor was he considered a follower. What made Saint Paul think this way?
We need to know what made Saint Paul say this, and you'll have your answer.
Why do priests tend to think of themselves as a channel where you are "only saved" unless you are their disciple??
Why?
Fr. Mikhail Ibrahim from Cairo was the Pope's FoC. All his "spiritual sons" are now bishops or priests. I have a picture of 20 young men gathered around this sweet looking man, and each one of those faces has now become a bishop or a priest. But - he was a man that admitted his mistakes. He was a man that went up and asked the congregation to forgive him. A man divorced his wife, and abouna went to him to apologise. He said "had I been a good priest, you would not have divorced your wife". Discipleship means that you are a sub-ordinate of that person (i.e. in a church we have a hierarchy).
Dependency means you are their sidekick (i.e. I'll flatter you, and you pray for me. I make you feel good, and you make me feel good in return). I don't know. Because they get kicks out of it. And that's what one priest said to me. Not in so many words, but that's basically what he said. He NEEDS praise! He needs to be praised!!
And these are the most dangerous MEN IN BLACK you could come across.
I remember, the bishop that ruined my life, I went to Church to meet him. He didnt want to see me. Even before the mass, NOR after mass. I really wanted to tell him how much he hurt me. Anyway, he just ignored me.
After the mass, he was about to give a speech in the Church.. and then some guy comes up to him and starts reading a poem for him. This man had written a poem JUST to present it to the bishop. LOL
What a loser. heheh... (and he is a loser because apparently abouna told me so, so I'm not judging him, I'm just passing on a message)
Anyway, he reads this poem that is full of flattery... and MORE flattery... and I'm there sitting listening to man who ruined my life being flattered. LOL...
He has no time to see me, nor to apologise, yet time to listen to stuff he doesnt deserve?
He is capable of listening and accepting the flattery, but not the rebuke? What kind of spirituality is that?
Then this bishop, after the poem had been read,responded and said to the priest of that church "Ahh yes,..what nice people you have in Church". lol
((Yeah.. whatever!! ))
This is a typical case of "You butter me up, and I'll butter you up. I need to be buttered up, and you have a lot of butter to give" -its basically supply and demand.
I think a priest needs to be asking if he is creating problems, or whether he is the cause of people NOT coming to the Church. Those are two questions they should be asking. Anything other than this, it doesnt matter.
As for your point father Peter, I said this many times: Whether you are a priest or a servant (this applies to male and female sunday school servants): You should endeavor to make others love Christ -NOT YOU. Not your personality, not your character, but Christ.
The problem is they want their personalities magnified, not Christ - and once they start on this road of self-magnification, the devil ends up working in them, and not the Holy Spirit.
They may know the Bible, but you cannot be a vessel for the Holy Spirit if you are not Christ-centric. All these characters are "ego-centric".
I just want to say that with all these problems, I really did nothing wrong. I was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, with bishops and priests that were just ego-centric. That's the result.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=7879.msg102301#msg102301 date=1240777639]
i know that's a bit extreme, but i think these people should be 'tried' like superman suggests, by the church.
That, I can tell you, is the worst thing you could possibly do.
The Church will not give the victim (a member of the public) his fair rights. Not at all. The bishop will defend his priests, and the priest will generally be protected by the immunity given to him by the Church. There will never be any justice.
For domestic cases, sure - I think I can agree with you on this. 110%. We should keep it internal. But where a priest does something wrong, terribly wrong, legally or morally wrong, and you take this up with his superior, then I can guarantee that any bishop will want to show you that you are in fact the person who is the criminal. They will change it around and tell you to forgive, forget, that no one is perfect. But they will NOT apologise.
They will NEVER admit their mistakes, and if they did, a "sorry" will never bring you justice.
BISHOPS PROTECTING THEIR PRIESTS???? HELLO? ARIUS?
Can you just elaborate as what you mean by this?
Thanks