Hello Dears,
I wanted to know the days that a married couples are not allowed to have sex. I need ur spiritual oppinion on how to practice a spiritual life in Marriage related to sex. I need to know the do and the don'ts related to sex in marriage. Thank U in advance.
May God be with u all in helping me.
Comments
Peace.
are you sure about this?? I read some where before that the COC does not tell you what is right or wrong when it comes to that...it's not like the muslim belief where that is haram, and that is okay, and that is haram...and ect...
can some one double check taht??
Hello Dears,
I wanted to know the days that a married couples are not allowed to have sex. I need ur spiritual oppinion on how to practice a spiritual life in Marriage related to sex. I need to know the do and the don'ts related to sex in marriage. Thank U in advance.
May God be with u all in helping me.
Concerning the "days" in which a married couple can/cannot have sex, it is really up to them. However, I think most married couples would dedicate the Holy Week to their spiritual life. If it doesn't work out that way, I don't think its too bad.
Concerning "oral sex" - i think this is something personal. We had a huge discussion as what couples "can" and "cannot" do in their sexual lives, but the Church "TRIED" to provide some guidelines on which sexual positions were "orthodox", yet I don't think they were being practical, nor does the Church have the right to tell couples what/which positions are allowed or not.
Biblically speaking, beastiality, and any form of sex that is degrading is wrong.
Some people in the Church go as far as saying ANY position where the man is NOT on top of the woman is WRONG and is a "sin". I mean, if you try any other position, you could end up in hell (even with your wife). I'm not sure where these people get their information from, but I really suggest that you ask a priest who is married what he suggests.
So, concerning oral sex, it's a definite no. As Taishory rightly said, HG Anba Youssef says:
Sex is not limited to intercourse. There are boundaries for sexual relationships. Some expressions of sexuality are acceptable within a marriage and some are not. Sex outside the marriage is never acceptable. Sometimes, when people want to justify their sexual desires, they negotiate the definition of sex. All activity of acting out sexual desires is sex. Oral sex is definitely a sexual act but an unacceptable one. "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5). "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions, for even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature" (Romans 1:26).
The guidance that the Orthodox church gives us concerning sexual practice is that there should be no sexual activity before and after communion (absolutely necessary) and that couples should abstain from sex during times of fasting (not absolutely necessary, but advisable). The logic here is that the mind and the body should be focused on Christ during these times, and not on potential lusts.
Hope this helped,
Matthew
I agree entirely with everything you said.
I even second it.
However, what I meant was that although you should abstain from sex BEFORE communion and after Holy Communion, if you are married and you do not abstain, then - don't feel TOO bad about it.
It is true that you CANNOT have Holy Communion, but, at the same time, the personal lives of a married couple is only known by them and when they feel horny.
Secondly, concerning Oral Sex in marriage - I don't know how if this is even relevant to the topic or question that was originally asked, but why is a Senior Bishop giving advice on what sexual activities married couples can/cannot do?
Should a man confess if he kisses his wife's foot because that wasn't what God intended to be kissed?
I would say that Bishop Youssef is a pretty good authority. If not a bishop then who? However, I am bothered by what he says for reasons I can't go into in public. In general I feel that, within reason and with mutual respect, all is permitted. I feel too embarrassed to discuss it with a priest, mainly because they often don't know what I am eluding to and plain English can be crude.
Can we have a definitive answer about this, not people kicking the ideas around. If it makes a difference to our salvation then we need to know.
p.s. I asked an old Canadian priest who was a widow of many years about how long before Holy Communion.... He assumed I was speaking about EMBRACING my wife not the whole hog. I didn't want to discuss the matter further.
why is a Senior Bishop giving advice on what sexual activities married couples can/cannot do?
QT_PA_2T, let me point out to you that Bishops are guided by God. just because they are not married, it doesn't mean that they don't know. St. Paul wasn't married yet most of our church teachings on this topic come from him. Why? because he was guided by God. the pope is not married, but he probably knows more than anyone regarding this topic. and monks who spent lots of time living in the desert in deep meditation can probably give you a better answer than anyone on a topic like this or any topic that you may think they have no clue about. never underestimate people like this. many times popes asked monks about certain subjects that you would think they had no clue about yet they knew more than anyone in the world.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7912.msg102546#msg102546 date=1241529042]
why is a Senior Bishop giving advice on what sexual activities married couples can/cannot do?
QT_PA_2T, let me point out to you that Bishops are guided by God. just because they are not married, it doesn't mean that they don't know. St. Paul wasn't married yet most of our church teachings on this topic come from him. Why? because he was guided by God. the pope is not married, but he probably knows more than anyone regarding this topic. and monks who spent lots of time living in the desert in deep meditation can probably give you a better answer than anyone on a topic like this or any topic that you may think they have no clue about. never underestimate people like this. many times popes asked monks about certain subjects that you would think they had no clue about yet they knew more than anyone in the world.
So God told the Bishops that oral sex is a sin between married couples?
I liked very much the quote from Bishop Youssef. It was definately something from God, as I felt God speaking to me when I was reading it. So - thanks LondonCopt.
I hope others find it as useful as I have!
But please read my question only as a question, not as a criticism. If I have a criticism I'd have posted it under Random or Personal issues. Having said that, the CoC is against couples having sex in positions OTHER than the man being on top of the woman. So, I don't know why it is a sin for them other positions, but - it really does make me wonder about what these people are doing in their spare time!!
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5). "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions, for even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature" (Romans 1:26).
Was he talking about oral sex in marriage? or was he talking about any sexual relationship that was outside marriage - meaning it was not Holy?
I honestly thought that sexual immorality meant ANY sexual activity outside marriage.
I honestly thought that sexual immorality meant ANY sexual activity outside marriage.
actually that's simply what it means.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7912.msg102567#msg102567 date=1241561942]
I honestly thought that sexual immorality meant ANY sexual activity outside marriage.
actually that's simply what it means.
[quote author=duck link=topic=7912.msg102568#msg102568 date=1241572087]
Although I'm not married I was told that you "should" abstain from sex during all fasts, however it is not enforced just encouraged. So its ultimately up to the couple to decide - but it has to be a mutual agreement i.e., both sides must agree, if one disagrees then the deal is off. Some priests even recommend that for the first year of marriage you do not abstain even during holy week; however this is subject to change based on the priest, couple, etc.
Yes, this is totally correct.
both couples have to decide what is OK for the other person. It is not right that a man decides to fast and abstain from sex when his wife does not agree. She has the right to NOT agree.
Of course, it would make complete sense to abstain from sex during the fasting period... I am sure everyone would have this intention, but if it doesnt work out that way, then I don't think we can say it is a "sin". The church considers sex during the fasting period AS IF you haven't fasted (especially before the Holy Communion). There is NO doubt that you cannot have the Holy Communion if you have had sex with your wife.
However, there seems to be some confusion amongst us as to what IS sexual immorality. For some people on this forum it seems to be "sexual positions" that one can/cannot do in the domain of marriage. This maybe immoral to some people.. such as "oral sex". However, for others, sexual immorality just means ANY sexual activity outside marriage.
I think Bishop Youssef's message is quite good. I do not see there is any confusion from what he is saying.
In fact, I know what he is thinking!!
There was a problem in the Church where the youth were doing sexual immoral things but were not doing intercourse, and JUSTIFYING their acts by saying "well.. its not intercourse". Of course, the Church responded and bishops and priests were trying to explain that ANY sexual activity outside marriage is wrong.
However, LondonCopt - i think you may have assumed that H.G. Bishop Youssef was referring to maried couples!?
Not at all. I am 100% sure that H.G was trying to explain to his flock that they cannot just do sexual acts and think that they have not had sex. This is all deception from the devil, and it is for this reason, I really love what H.G. Bishop youssef has said, and the wording he has used.
I think such information should be propagated to our youth, who out of naivity, may think that certain sexual acts are "OK" because it may not constitute "sexual intercourse".
However, to extrapolate his message to a marriage - I am sure H.G. did NOT mean this to be within marriage. For sure, sex within marriage must be dignified and respectable, and it must HONOUR the other person. How a couple feels about the other varies.. its a very personal issue. When two bodies have become ONE body, why would the Church go and tell them that something is wrong.
Sex outside marriage is WRONG. I couldnt agree more. ANY sexual activity outside marriage is wrong, and the reason it is wrong, is not just because you have offended God, but all these things harm you.
However, within marriage, whatever you do with your spouse is surely a personal matter, and the Church cannot dictate which positions you are/are not allowed to do with each other?
In Christ
OK. So HOW LONG either side of Holy Communion do I abstain? No priest or priest monk in my church seems to know exactly. I have been told from Friday night to ?? or even nearer the time.
In Christ
Aiden,
You need to be fasting 8 hours before Holy Communion.
I do believe it's 8 hours. Someone else can perhaps verify this; but basically, if you have intercourse before Holy Communion, it is considered as if you have broken your fast, and you will not be allowed to have the Holy Communion.
Also, the Church asks that you do NOT have sexual intercourse AFTER Holy Communion (for obvious reasons).
Just resume your marital life on Monday up until Saturday night.
Aiden, unless you're a rabbit, I'm pretty sure 6 days out of 7 will be suficient for love making.
If the partner is always recognised as a child of God, and as a subject rather than an object of sexual desire, then sexual practice becomes a matter of fulfilling the other person and not fulfilling ourselves. We do not go beyond what the other person feels comfortable with, we do not lead them into sin, we seek to find a depth of intimacy in the sexual relationship which is much more than merely a sharing in a physical act. It seems to me that how a married couple work this out in their own relationship and circumstances is primarily up to them, and a priest gives counsel only in so far as it is a matter of principle.
As for sexual activity outside of marriage, well as His Grace suggests, it is not a toy or a plaything or a sport. It is dangerous because it affects and effects deep seated changes in our personhood. These are not always visible but they take place nevertheless and at the least introduce a deficient view of sexuality - either ascribing it too negative a view in reaction to sexual experiences, or too liberal a view. It can take a long time for these deficiencies to be worked out properly so that sexuality achieves its proper end within a faithful marriage. Avoiding all exercise of sexuality is by far the best course for the young person. Not least because having once begun to experience sexual practice the desire to increase the experience is very compelling. This is not at all because sexuality is dirty or sinful in any way, but because for the Orthodox Christian it is almost sacramental, a means of grace within a marriage, not simple a means of physical pleasure. A young person would not think of entering the altar and playing at being a priest, no more should a young person think of playing at being married.
I would recommend that if it is possible it is best not to have sexual relations on Saturday evening before a liturgy on Sunday since the preparation for the Liturgy begins with the Raising of Evening Incense and it is best, even if we do not attend the Raising of Incense, to try and be preparing ourselves for the Liturgy the following morning by engaging in more spiritual pursuits. The guidance of the Church is there to help us to make the most of the means by which God grants us His gifts of grace and we should not think so much in terms of a legalistic code of behaviour, but of a relationship with God that requires attention and effort, especially at certain times, to make the most of it.
Father Peter
i like father peter's post, i want to add that fasting is 9 hours before communion, not 8.
Thanks.
I too liked Fr. Peter's post. I especially liked the part that we shouldnt be legalistic in what we can/cannot do with each other when we are married, but rather to see the other as a son/daughter of God. If we see other in this light, it would most definately help the relationship.
Having said that, I disagree with the part about abstaining from sex with your wife on Saturday Evening, as this goes straight against what I was taught:
Sexual relations with your spouse is in fact like eating. You are breaking the fast. This is the words of our priest. This is fine. You are allowed to eat, however, you must be fasting for the right amount of time before the mass.
I disliked extremely the notion of where Fr. Peter suggests that married couples abstain from sex Saturday Night in preparation for the liturgy. I feel this is short sighted of the entire principles of marriage and the HOLINESS of sexual intercourse with your spouse. Again, in the confines of marriage, sexual relations is considered like eating - and to have an appetite is God given. There is a time and place to eat.
If we eat after the vespers on Saturday Night, why should we not have sexual relations with our wives after the vespers? What is wrong with that?
I cringe when I hear such thoughts, especially from a priest, as it villifies sexual relations as if they are not holy. The love-making between a man and woman is holy and an act that is blessed by God. It is a beautiful expression of love between two persons. In fact, as far as I can see, it is the ideal thing to do on a Saturday night as IT DOES prepare for the liturgy!! You just made love to your wife, what a most beautiful way to start the day: that would mean that you are at peace with each other also. This is also an important element before starting the mass.
The relationship with one's wife SHOULD NEVER be disassociated with your spiritual life - on the contrary - i believe that one's marital life and spiritual life need to be in sync with each other: one supports the other.
As far as your opinions go, they are your own, but I do not believe that they represent the mind of the Church.
There is nothing wrong with sexual relations in marriage, far from it. You have twisted what I have said to make it say the opposite of what I believe. But there are more important things than sexual relations in a marriage.
Preparing for the Liturgy should not be taken lightly, and there are many things which are good in their own time and place which should be subsumed by the need to spend time in prayer, quiet and reading of the Scriptures.
Indeed I believe it would be dangerous to consider having sexual relations as being a means of preparing for the Liturgy.
Father Peter
QT, I don't believe you are married, therefore I would suggest that you exercise a certain caution in your posts.
You know nothing about me, so please refrain from judging. Read my post carefully. I said that we were taught this by our FoC! Our priest! Our Orthodox priest.
I cannot be clearer. You obviously have a difference in values here. I am not suggesting that you said there was anything wrong with sexual relations in marriage. That is not what you said, and we all know that.
You suggested that it was best to abstain from sexual relations BEFORE Sunday on Saturday Evening in preparation for the mass. My opinion (and that of our FoC) is that sexual relations does not inhibit any preparation for the mass if it is done above the 8 or 9 hour fasting period. How would it inhibit preparation? Now, this is not my opinion. It is how we were taught. That sexual relations in marriage IS something Holy; yet, like with food, one must fast before receiving the Holy Communion. That's very true. However, preparing for the liturgy should not mean that I disassociate what God made Holy from my life to prepare me for receiving the Holy Communion. hahhah.. lol
Come on.. I did not say this. I am not suggesting that it prepares you for Holy Communion. That would be absurd. I am saying your attitude goes agaisnt the opinion of our FoC who insists that sexual relations between a husband and a wife are not only Holy, but something that is edifying for the relationship, and it is blessed by God. So, why do you prohibit this at a time when other priests allow it??? It is beyond me.
Yet in the previous post you said.. I do also believe that you are not married, therefore this seems to me to have a significant impact on your knowledge and experience of the place of sex within marriage.
It is proper for you to follow the instructions of your own FOC, but I have my own opinion as a priest, and other priests will have yet other opinions. This is not unusual, and I don't understand why you should act surprised that there are differences in opinion and instruction. If you wished to be fair and respectful of my comments as a priest and FOC you would have remembered that what I suggested was a recommendation, not an order. It is indeed my opinion.
Father Peter
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7912.msg102610#msg102610 date=1241625511]Come on.. I did not say this. I am not suggesting that it prepares you for Holy Communion. That would be absurd.
Yet in the previous post you said..
When I said it is the "ideal" thing to do - i meant, that if given Sexual intercourse between a husband and wife IS something Holy, and it brings the couple closer and results in peace between them, then it IS something ideal to do BEFORE the mass simply because it is important to have communion when you are at peace with one another - especially your wife!!
if you do not believe that, it is your opinion; but I can tell you, our FoC influenced us to think this way. I totally agree that we should be prepared for the Holy Communion, and slothfulness and carelessness is a sin with respect to how we present ourselves before the Eucharist, but if a couple have sex a day BEFORE sunday and it is well within their 9 hour limit before the mass, I see nothing wrong with it. Its as if you are making out that sex is not a holy act therefore we should abstain from it on saturday to ensure that we are worthy to have communion on Sunday!! Would you honestly like it if someone said to you "I do also believe that you are not really a priest, and therefore i suggest that you exercise caution?"
If you are a priest - that's great. If you're not, its no one's business. I said I "cringe" when I hear opinions like yours on such subjects.
Given now that you agree what you said is only an opinion - please ensure that you make that clear next time as it is just that: AN OPINION, that is greatly rejected by the majority of priests whom I've spoken with.
I would recommend that you listen to the lectures of Dr. Nabil Baki on this subject. He explains the importance of sex in marriage. However, i disagree with him concerning his view on which positions a couple can have... but.. again, we are both in accordance that sex in marriage is Holy and for someone to say that "we should abstain from sex before the mass from Saturday Night" shows that they have no understanding of the HOLINESS of sexual intercourse in marriage.
[edited to remove personal information]
QT, i know you gonna jump on me right now, SO WHAT!!! you annoy everyone.....this is something small bass keda of what you do.
i would say more and follow, but i g2g, exams.
My private life is private.
[Edited to remove personal information], and I wasn't prepared to disclose any private detail especially to prove a priest wrong.
He wants to judge me - that's his business.
Please - in the future Mina, keep my personal information u have personal.
Thank u
Thank you Father for taking the time out of your schedule to provide us with your knowledge.
I am surprised that the tradition would be less strict in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
Father Peter
I just wanted to say that while I don't know whether Father Peter's "opinion" coincides with the majority of priests, I do know that my priest teaches the same thing as he does as do nearly all the priests I have encountered that have spoken about the subject.
Thank you Father for taking the time out of your schedule to provide us with your knowledge.
But that is just their opinion. We are talking about sexual relations after the vespers?? I mean, that's around 6pm? Is your priest married?
Because I can tell you, I only discuss this with married priests and they see nothing wrong with it. Sure, they ALL agree that it is wrong to have sex before COmmunion, but vespers is far away that it is OK.
I think it is best that couples have an FoC that they can trust, and can confess to. This is a personal matter between couples.
In point of fact my opinion is not only my own. Most of the traditional Eastern Orthodox I know all teach that someone wishing to receive communion should abstain from marital relations on the day before, that is Saturday in the case of a Sunday liturgy.
I am surprised that the tradition would be less strict in the Coptic Orthodox Church.
Father Peter
Let me reassure that the CoC enforces HIGH standards with respect to the partaking of the Eucharist. And I cannot be clearer and say that sexual relations before communion is not allowed. It is NOT allowed because it would be like having broken your fast.
However, during vespers - that is OK.
Also, many FoC's encourage their spiritual children to abstain from sex for 3 days AFTER they get married... this is all personal, and I have nothing against this as the idea is to refrain from sex after your marriage to dedicate that to prayer....
I believe that if your partner desires sex and you refuse it because you want to pray instead the vespers, then you are negligent of your partner, and this is worse than praying the vespers. Both of them have to be in agreement.
So, put it this way: if BOTH parties are in agreement - fine. However, IT IS NOT A SIN, NOR is it wrong for a couple to have sex the DAY before having communion!!!!
Obviously, a priest might give exceptions to certain couples for whatever they deem appropriate to them, but for the most part, couples should keep the night for prayer and preparation. It is true that sex is almost sacramental but also keep in mind one of the reasons we separate men and women in the church: it reminds couples that their relationship with God is far more important than their relationship with their spouse, and one ought to be closer to God than his/her spouse (not to say that their relationship with each other isn't important, for it really is, but nothing comes close to God). Thus most priests here say that we should try to refrain from any sexual act after the beginning of vespers and just pray and prepare for the following day.
Father Peter