dear brother dimyan, you may think no-one can imagine the trials you are going through, or that no-one has doubted like this. in fact, many of the desert fathers (and mothers) went though testing times. as i read your post and prayed, these words from the trisagion came to me (ith thalaath taqdeesaat):
holy God, holy mightly, holy immortal, who was born of the virgin, have mercy on us. holy God, holy mightly, holy immortal, who was crucified for us, have mercy on us. holy God, holy mightly, holy immortal, who rose from the dead and ascended in the heavens, have mercy on us. glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit now and forever and unto the ages of all ages, amen. oh, holy Trinity have mercy on us. oh, holy Trinity have mercy on us. oh, holy Trinity have mercy on us. oh Lord, forgive us our sins. oh Lord, forgive us our iniquities. oh Lord, forgive us our trespasses.
i suggest you look the full version up in the ageya and meditate on this and repeat it, especially before sleeping.
i am also going through trials. God exists. i know it because He is here with me in this moment of my stress and lack of faith and lack of trust in His ability to deliver me from the current situation. He forgives me as i repent for this and confess to my spiritual father. i know this because i have read of His power and love in His holy word and it makes sense. i know this because i have seen His power and love in the lives of those around me. i know this because i am so much stronger and more peaceful than when i was having smaller trials last year. i know this because i saw the peace on the face of my friend when she accepted she was dying and passed peacefully into the arms of her redeemer. i know this because the enemy is getting annoyed with me. if i was far from God, he wouldn't bother to hassle me. i know this because every time i feel weak, God gives me something to hold onto. i know this because last weekend in church we read those immortal words from john 16:33 - 'i have told you all these things that you will have peace in me. in this world you will have troubles, but, TAKE COURAGE FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD' this has been true in my life for over 30 years, i pray today that you will also realise the truth of these words and rest in the spiritual arms of your loving God, father to the fatherless, friend of sinners and redeemer of the lost. your sister in Christ
Be strong and ask for divine help For me, whenever I am tempted with such thoughts, as a biologist, I contemplate on the many wonders and complexity of the human body and it gives me great comfort knowing that only one infinite God created this with his unlimited wisdom. It may help to look around you in nature or anything else and contemplate on the greatness of how everything was created and interacts with each other. But most important, do not be deceived or weakened because you are singled out by your friends Pray pray and pray some more and God will help you
just to add a bit, another thing that strengthens me is the power of the cross and how the temptation goes away when you do it, and how the devils tremble at the sign of the cross.
also, the pope always reminds us to ask God. So, ask God to give you faith - stand up to pray and say that faith comes from You Lord - remind God of his promises when he said,
"12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the LORD, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the LORD, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive." (Jeremiah 29:12-14)
"If you seek Him, He will be found by you" (1 Chronicles 28:9)
"7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" (Matthew 7:7-11 & Luke 11:9-13)
If we can prove the resurrection of Christ this by default proves the existence of Christ. The book titled “The Case for Christ” helped with this. Hope you will read it and God will comfort you with his presence. One thing I want to add is that in our life there are moments we don’t feel the presence of God. Moments of doubting and struggling. Remember, the devil tempted Eve in the God’s ‘absence’. Even Jesus cried ‘My God, My God why have you forsaken me’ for he feels separated from God. So when we feel separated from God or feel His presence no more, let us remember the words “those who endure to the end will be saved”. Dimyan, it is very natural to go up and down in our spiritual journey. Many of us have moments where we are strong (reading the bible, fasting, praying, going to church etc.) and moments we neglect our souls. But let us unceasingly seek God and hope in His word “seek and you shall find”. May God guide us all to Himself In Christ Theophilus
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=8079.msg103818#msg103818 date=1244147532] Everyone, please .. I need help with my faith.
I'm reading every book possible to help me, I took out all of the secular music on my ipod, stopped watching bad shows, but I cant get back to the mind set that God exists, and Jesus Christ is God incarnated ..
i am stuggling strongly with religion, maybe it is becuase we are studying evolution in school, and everyone is singling me out.
Please help me
My friend, I've been to that place you are at now! First, I don't think you have to throw away all of your "secular music" and stop watching TV. (I mean unless you're talking about slasher films, and violence or sex ridden type music) Christ came to transfigure the world, and so that through us, we might offer the world back to God Sacramentally, not to take us out of it or ignore it. But of course I have no idea what you consider secular and bad, so you might be very well doing the proper thing.
Secondly, Evolution is NOT against God, God created the world through evolution. The Bible is not a science book, it is a spiritual book. I believe in evolution (though that's a poor phrase, no one says they "believe" in gravity, gravity simply is true, but for the sake of argument I'll use the term "believe").......so I believe in evolution, but this in no way conflicts with my belief in God or our Orthodox faith. The problem is a lot of teachers may not really understand what evolution is and is not, and many science books may give a false impression as to what it is and is not. That's a big topic, but trust me, there is NOTHING in evolutionary theory that conflicts with Orthodox Christianity. It's people's misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory says that can cause problems, and that is maybe what is happening with your school. Of course you're free to not believe in evolution as well, that's up to the individual, but once you know what evolution truly is, it in no way conflicts with our Orthodox Faith, IMO.
With that aside, I completely and fully understand what you're going through. I've been on the verge of atheism before as well; and I don't have any magic answers for you that "proves" God's existence. I think God is BEYOND existence, so "proving" God exists is a bit problematic. There are some really good books that give strong evidence though, the Case for Christ is supposed to be a good one, though I've never read it. Being a history buff, and an "armchair historian" I tend to take that route, and history always leads me back to Christianity, and the Orthodox Church, even in times of my most severe doubt.
Another thing to do is to pray. Even when I considered myself totally agnostic, I prayed.....as your saint to pray for you, or another saint, or the Theotokos. If you think you don't believe in the saints, then just ask God to guide you. If you don't think you believe in God, then say, "if you're real, help me".......prayer really does work.
I think it's important also to know the difference between doubt and flat out atheism, as they really are not the same thing. Perhaps you're just being too hard on yourself in the face of what "seems" to disprove the existence of God. If it really has to do with evolution, then try reading some books on the subject from scientists who accept evolution AND who believe in God. There have been quite a few books written by Orthodox Christians, and another one by a Protestant titled, "Thank God for Evolution"...(or something along those lines). There are other good ones by people who aren't even theists, but who explain the theory well enough and point out none of these things are in opposition to Christianity. (certainly not Catholic/Orthodox Christianity)
My saint is the Apostle Thomas, and I chose him for a reason, so I definitely understand what you're going through. He doubted, was skeptical, and yet, was also the first to say, "I'm willing to die with Him"......sometimes those who doubt the most, also have the greatest faith. (not that I'm saying that about myself)
Don't be too hard on yourself, and keep praying. I have a feeling things aren't as dim as you think they are.
I have to disagree, being an orthodox christian and believing in macro evolution does not go hand in hand. As orthodox christians we believe in micro evolution but not macro.
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=8079.msg103818#msg103818 date=1244147532] Everyone, please .. I need help with my faith.
I'm reading every book possible to help me, I took out all of the secular music on my ipod, stopped watching bad shows, but I cant get back to the mind set that God exists, and Jesus Christ is God incarnated ..
i am stuggling strongly with religion, maybe it is becuase we are studying evolution in school, and everyone is singling me out.
Please help me
DimyanCoptic,
I think there is a simple truth to keep in mind that will help in this area greatly, and I like to present it in the form of a metaphor. If you consider a very young child there are two elements that are absolutely essential to their healthy development. They have to fully feel that they can trust and depend on their parents, and they need to have unstructured playtime so that they can figure out who they are and how they will think. To some, these may seem like two contradictory ideas, because often the unstructured playtime involves mistakes, accidents, skinned knees, stubbed toes etc. It is the parent's job to keep the two extremes in balance, to be caring enough to help when needed and wise enough to know when not to help too much.
From the point of view of the child the trust is an abstract thing. All they understand is the play and that (somehow) they are safe because their parents are always near-by. At their stage of development they don't understand the balance or the internal struggle of their parents, all they understand is that it is their special time to do whatever they want without the regulation of their parents.
I think science is mankind's "special playtime". It is a process of trial and error (and more error and more error . . .) by which we learn about God's creation and what it is and what we can do with it. The only important difference between my above metaphor and our relationship with God is that we are required to have some maturity in this matter and in order to have the feeling of trust to balance the feeling of independance that we exercise in "special playtime" we must offer our faith. The difficulty is that faith is trancendent. It can't be reeasoned or felt by the five senses it can only be felt through Spirit. This is something that may well be completely impossible to grasp intuitively, so please don't be discouraged it is something we all struggle with.
As far as evolutionists go, Science, by necessity, works only in the realm of things that are directly observable and therefore has no juristiction over any concept of God including His existence. In the realm of the purely cognitive that which can't be sensed is nonsense which leads people to only beieve in things that can be sensed. What they don't realize is that our very being, and our very ability to sense implies that there are things in thins universe that can't be sensed, so please don't be discouraged by them either.
My faith is that if God allowed us to persist indefinitely, our process of trial an error would (after an extreme duration of time) lead us to discover all of the truths in God's Word. As an example: God inspired Solomon to write "As a man thinketh so is he". The science of psychology was not founded for over 2 millenia, and the process of trial and error lead to a bunch of different conflicting ideas most of which lead scientists to believe that people's brains are hard-wired. So for the longest time scientists believed that 'a man thinks as he is' which is contrary to the teachings in Eccleiastes. It wasn't until around the seventies that scientists discovered that the brain is constantly in flux and that the "hard wiring" changes with practice and prolonged experience. Science eventually discovered what God told us to begin with.
Before our newest discovery, our best knowledge to work with was that the brain becomes hard-wired, and that was what we had to work with. I don't think anyone that made decisions based on that premise were being unethical, but if any scientist stepped outside of his jurisdiction then and said that the "facts" proved that Solomon didn't know what he was talking about and therefore there must be no God, he would look like a big fool now.
I think this applies to evolutionists now. I see nothing wrong with them saying, "our current best conclusions based on what we have observed over the last couple hundred years is this . . . " But the second that one of them starts making implications about things that we cannot observe (including God's existence), my respect for them goes down the toilet.
For me personally this includes things like macroevolution. Many good scientists believe and have evidence to show that our best indication is that species have evolved into other species. I think knowing our current stage of scientific knowledge is very good and important, but my faith is that, if we are here long enough, we will find that creatures were created individually.
Sorry for the long post, but this is a pretty big question, and very important if your faith is being shaken.
i agree with these great posts, except i too don't believe in all evolution theory (though there are some good points in it). i think it is more common for catholics and eastern orthodox (from what i have seen) to believe in it and for protestants and oriental orthodox to not believe it. of course this is a sweeping generalisation and maybe a quick survey among our members will disprove that! other than that difference, i think north star's post is important for you to read, because what matters is that your salvation and the existence of God does not hinge on you believing in evolution or not believing in it. i have met fine Christians who believe in evolution, including an anglican vicar and a baptist minister. when i studied it at school, i was just not very impressed with all the circular arguments, like we know how old the rocks are because of the level they are at in the ground and we know how old the levels of the ground are because of the different types of rock in them. i could still happily take communion and work sharing the gospel together with an evolutionist, so don't feel you have to be 100% sure evolution theory is accurate or not at this stage. i like the idea of science as 'special playtime', that's cool. you see God is above and beyond all these things. He created all the scientific laws, but He can also alter them, for example to perform miracles, or during the great flood. we can never fully understand all of creation, we haven't got big enough brains. but if you read your text books a couple of times and take notes in class, you'll memorise enough to pass your exams and decide about the 'belief' aspect of it later. if God wants you to be a professor of biology or a neurosurgeon, He'll give you the ability to look into all these things in more detail later. for now, investigate your questions by reading the Bible and questioning your Christian friends (as you are doing) and look out for God showing Himself to you in the things around you. we are praying :)
You cannot prove God exists through science and human logic. God created science and logic and is above it! That is not to say He is against it; He is above it! Also we have to realize that things do not appear out of thin air. For example: you do not see trees appearing out of nowhere without anyone planting seeds and watering them. There is always someone who goes and plants a seed in the ground and waters it. Bottom line is that there must be a creator.
Now I believe it was Saint Paul who said that our faith grows through reading the Bible. Do you read your Bible daily? Do you stop to think and analyze it by interpreting the church fathers while practicing the art of prayer? Do you also take the time to notice how each and every book in the Bible, though written by different authors of different periods, compliment each other? These things need to be taken into consideration so that you can not only strengthen your belief but strengthen your relationship with God. He is not a force but a Being!
And do not worry when you begin to doubt yourself...always refer to the story of Saint Athansius. When everyone else was willing to stray from the faith, he alone was the person to say "No." Some said he was crazy and that the whole world was against him, yet he replied "then I am against the world." Use these words as motivation.
[quote author=I am all yours Lord link=topic=8079.msg103847#msg103847 date=1244226153] I have to disagree, being an orthodox christian and believing in macro evolution does not go hand in hand. As orthodox christians we believe in micro evolution but not macro.
Well, you're free to not accept it, and I know most of my Orthodox friends I have also do not accept it. And that's fine. My point was simply that one CAN accept evolutionary theory, and still be an Orthodox Christian. I'm pretty positive Pope Shenouda III has said this and written this on many ocassions, though I don't have the references at hand.
The biggest problem with the theory has been mentioned by others, first secularized arguments that have some sort of anti-God agenda; two, the common belief that macro-evolution is "one animal turning into another animal" and three, that "humans evolved from apes"....the problem is those things are not true and are not what evolutionary theory explains. These (and many other common beliefs) are misconceptions but that's a different topic and not really important to the thread per se. Evolution is also not "survival of the fittest" as we mean today, rather it is those that are best adapted for a specific environment thrive, but not "survival of the fittest" which has pseudo Nazi undertones...(IMO)
And yes, there are some people with an agenda like Richard Dawkins and those guys who are "fundamentalist atheists" using science to "prove" their belief. Except science cannot be used to "prove" anything...true science simply is observation, testing, and drawing conclusions, and that's all. (for the most part, it's more complex than that but still that's the basis of it)
Also it's interesting that atheism is NOT a new thing, nor is the concept that the universe simply "came into existence by itself"....these are ancient philosophies, dating back 1000's of years, and the Church fathers knew much about them. Yet fathers like Basil the Great, and Augustine both wrote that the point of Genesis is that God created everything from nothing, not that he did it in 6 literal days. Augustine said in the City of God and some of his letters that if Christians insisted on taking Genesis literally, and it were ever proven some day in the future that the world was much older than 6 days, the pagans would laugh at us Christians for being so strict in our interpretation. (and Augustine DID interprete it literally, at least for part of his life, but accepted the possibility there was more to it than that)
Anyways, I only said what I did to show there is nothing to fear from evolution. I know it can be scary, especially when we're first exposed to evolution and usually a not quite so "kosher" version of evolutionary theory, but I just don't see how it can be contrary to our faith if taken in the proper context. With that said, most people I know would not agree with me, and many EO accept a 6 literal day of creation, and that's cool. One of my best friends does, and we joke about it and it doesn't come between us at all) Orthodox Judaism has a unique view as well, and in the end I guess it can work out (the earth was created with the appearance of age, or our science is simply not up to par yet) I have no doubt God COULD have done it in 6 days, and maybe He did. I have no problem with that, however having read up on the subject for years, and having formerly been a 6 literal day creationist for most of my Christian life, I don't think people should be losing their faith over evolution. It's just not right to watch people lose their faith over something that simply isn't necessary to lose one's faith over. Especially when the Church has said one can believe in evolution, be Orthodox, as long as you accept God created it all from nothing, and that Adam and Eve were real people created uniquely from the rest of creation.
As I said, I'm positive Pope Shenouda has written that, because he is the first Christian writer I ever read who actually said you could be both a Christian and accept evolution. I wish I had the reference for you, but alas I don't. (I read it years ago)
Of course, I completely agree, the earth might only be 6000 yrs old, and that's entirely possible, but in the end I think the only point that matters is that God did it, and HOW He did it is His business. But in the end, it's not that big a deal to me, and I could very well be wrong.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=8079.msg103857#msg103857 date=1244233859] i have met fine Christians who believe in evolution, including an anglican vicar and a baptist minister. when i studied it at school, i was just not very impressed with all the circular arguments, like we know how old the rocks are because of the level they are at in the ground and we know how old the levels of the ground are because of the different types of rock in them.
LOL! See, that's the "not so kosher" teaching I was talking about... ;D Again the problem is we've either got uninformed people "teaching" evolution, or someone with some anti-religious agenda, neither are based on science but said person's own personal beliefs.
i could still happily take communion and work sharing the gospel together with an evolutionist, so don't feel you have to be 100% sure evolution theory is accurate or not at this stage.
Evolutionary theory will never be 100%, no science is ever 100% accurate, it's always growing and we're always learning more, even about such rock solid ideas like gravity. There's always more to learn, in that sense it's a bit like Theosis, a never ending growth towards God. :)
God is above and beyond all these things. He created all the scientific laws, but He can also alter them, for example to perform miracles, or during the great flood.
Absolutely! I hope I didn't give any impression that I thought God can't do something like alter or suspend the laws of the universe, everything is absolutely dependent upon him, and I have no problem with miracles etc. God is almighty and has no limits.
we can never fully understand all of creation, we haven't got big enough brains.
Again, totally agree. If you ever read in a book, that science has it all figured out, give the book away, because it's terrible science. (in fact it would be best to not pass the bad science around to others, so maybe just shelve the thing)
for now, investigate your questions by reading the Bible and questioning your Christian friends (as you are doing) and look out for God showing Himself to you in the things around you. we are praying :)
Absolutely. Whether one is accepts evolutionary theory or not, God can be seen within His creation. He is "everywhere present and filling all things" as one EO prayer goes. For me, I have a more full realization of God's presence since accepting evolution some years back, but that is not the way for everyone. And perhaps that's why it will never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Each person is different, and who knows, when (and if) we get to Heaven, God might surprise both sides and say something no one would expect like, "I created the universe in 2.35 seconds"...lol! In the end it doesn't matter, all that matters is He created it, and He sustains it.
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=8079.msg103873#msg103873 date=1244275785] thanks, brother, you confirmed my point that we don't have to totally agree on everything to be united in Christ :)
Exactly! And just to clarify, even though I accept evolutionary theory, I most certainly believe that it was simply the method God used for creation, and that His hand was always a part of the evolution of life. Just wanted to clarify that I do NOT think God simply planted a seed and it all happened by itself. Hopefully that makes sense. Theistic Evolution is usually the accepted term.
Anyways, you're right, these are issues IMO, where we can disagree and yet still be a part of the same fullness of Christ's Church. In the end what matters is Christ and faith, and that is what is at the core of this thread.
With that said, I want to apologize to the original poster for taking this thread slightly off topic. And I want to apologize to everyone else to whom I've given a bad impression to here. As I've contemplated upon this thread and the OP and the intent, I came to realize this morning that everyone here with their posts has taught me something very important, and that is what matters is faith, not the age of the universe, and not "how" God created it; but simple faith and trust in God. And you, and a couple others by your words and posts in this thread have made me realize that as of late I've been looking at things to much in the cerebral, too much in the mind, and trying to gain "knowledge", as opposed to just living the faith, living for Christ. I know no one here probably understands how this thread has affected me, but I just wanted to say that it has been a great balance for me, and a correction in Love. This probably makes no sense but I wanted to say thank you for all that.
Now to the original poster: this might not make any sense, but somehow this thread has helped ME in my faith. And hopefully it will help you. I still think in the end, that evolution, when understood correctly and explained correctly has ZERO affect on the Orthodox faith, or a general belief in God, with that said, it takes a lot of reading by good authors to get the grasp of that, and sadly I have a feeling your being exposed to poor science and poor explanation. In the end, remember, the age of the earth and even "evolution" is not new or novel, Darwin did not invent the theory, he simply applied it to observations he made, the Church fathers all knew of the theory (though like I said then it was a philosophy not a science) and so whatever conclusions you eventually come to in regards to this, realize that you are not alone. You have many saints and people praying for you. And as we've said, don't be too hard on yourself. Everyone goes through this at some point in their life and I believe you'll come through with a stronger faith than you went into this with.
I found this sermon online. I believe faith does not come from ourselves but God gives it. And we should not doubt that God is good and able to save everyone.
We human beings are a strange mixture of belief and doubt. We say we believe something, but there is always doubt present. I guess it is part of being human. The Bible says we see only in part now as through a dark glass. We can't understand everything in the world around us. So we are always questioning what we believe to be the truth. I guess faith and doubt are like two sides of a coin. Without one the other would be meaningless.
But thank God we still venture to believe despite our doubts. Even though we can't see God, some of us still believe that God exists. Despite all the evil in the world we still believe that God is in control and that God is good. If we do not admit however that we have doubts then we are fooling ourselves.
One day a man came to Jesus. He was a leper and wanted to be healed. Jesus asked him if he believed. He said, "Yes Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." He was honest with Jesus and we should follow his example. We need to admit that we are all a mixture of doubt and belief.
Jesus' disciples were no different. They believed and yet they doubted also. One day Jesus asked them who people were saying he was. They said, "Some say Elijah or John the Baptist come back." Then Jesus said, "Who do you say I am?" And Peter said, "You are the Messiah." He believed in Jesus and was the first disciples to say so out loud.
But then Jesus started saying that he must go to Jerusalem to be rejected and killed. Peter didn't like the sound of this. He probably began to doubt not only Jesus' divinity but his sanity as well. Mark says that Peter took Jesus aside and rebuked him. He didn't merely ask for a clarification of something he had trouble understanding. He rebuked Jesus and told him he was wrong. If Peter believed without a doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, he would have accepted whatever Jesus said as the Gospel truth. But he questioned what Jesus told him and doubted.
This incident demonstrates that Peter, the chief apostle, was a mixture of belief and doubt. Don't misunderstand. Peter did believe. He honestly believed that Jesus was the Messiah. But at the same time he doubted. He questioned the truth of Jesus' teaching when it didn't make perfect sense to him.
Peter and the other disciples had to live with this mixture of faith and doubt just as all humans do. So Jesus took them on a journey to help them grow in faith. It took six days of walking to reach the destination: a mountain. Then Jesus took three of the disciples: Peter, James and John up a mountain to pray. Some scholars believe that this mountain was Mt. Hebron. Mt. Hebron is 9200 feet up and its summit is always covered with snow.
So it was quite a hike to the top. At the top something happened. Jesus was transfigured. His clothes became an unearthly white and his face glowed. Moses and Elijah were standing there with him as a testimony to Jesus' holiness. Then a voice came from heaven and said, "This is my Beloved Son, do as he says."
I believe that this happened to confirm their faith. They believed that Jesus was the Messiah but at the same time they probably wondered if he was not mistaken about going to Jerusalem to die. But despite their doubt they followed Jesus to the mountain. They even hiked to the top of a high cold mountain. And God showed them that Jesus was the Messiah, and their faith was strengthened.
Like the disciples you and I are a mixture of belief and doubt. If we are honest with ourselves we can all join that leper in saying, "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." Even faithful people, like the apostle Peter, have doubts. "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." That is the prayer of a true disciple. Anything less is a failure to be honest with ourselves and with God.
We all have doubts, and one of the main areas of doubt is that Jesus actually is the Son of God. Like Peter people say Jesus is the Messiah, but they doubt at the same time. Many people say they believe that Jesus is the son of God, but they have never committed their lives to him. They accept the historical premise that Jesus is God's Son. But they are unwilling to base their lives on that. Many who say they believe Jesus is the Son of God are unwilling to set aside the time to worship him on a regular basis. They believe, but not enough to give up a hour a week for study and worship. Or to give some time to him in prayer or service. But all of us have some level of doubt. Even those who have committed their lives fully to Christ have room to grow. No matter how deep our faith in Christ is, there are always new depths to discover.
And yet Jesus' sonship is at the cornerstone of our faith. Maybe that is why people have doubts about Jesus from time to time. After all if he was only a great moral teacher and not the only begotten Son of God, then his teachings are no more important than say Buddha's. There were many healers in Jesus day. If he was not God's son than he was just another healer. If he was not God's son than he could not have died for our sins and we would have to rely on our own moral ability and good works to save us. And we know no one is saved by works. Perhaps people doubt Jesus' divinity because it is so central to our faith.
We all have doubts. When you have doubts, just follow Jesus anyway. There are some people who believe they should just sit still until they get it all figured out. They say they will start going to church after they are finished reading the Bible and understand it. Or they won't make a commitment to Christ until they are free of all doubts. It'll never happen!
That's not the way Jesus works. When Jesus called Peter and the others, he didn't say come and I will explain everything to you then we will minister. He said, "Follow me and I will make you fish for people." Christians learn on their feet while they walk. Jesus believes in on-the-job training. Every Christian needs to take classes, but we also need to sign up for an internship. We must follow to learn and grow. If we try to learn it all then follow, we will never learn a thing.
Have you ever heard the saying, "If you want to have faith, live as if you had it." That doesn't mean that you should put on a religious show as if you had faith. It is saying that we should step out in faith especially when we doubt. Because it is only when we step out in faith that our faith is verified and our doubts are quieted.
Step out in faith like Peter, James and John. They doubted, yet they followed Jesus up that mountain and their faith was confirmed and strengthened. In the same way follow Jesus up the mountain. Even though it seems an uphill struggle and your doubts nag at you continue to step out in faith. And you will see for yourself that Jesus is the Beloved Son of God.
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=8079.msg103891#msg103891 date=1244342044] But guys, whenever I debate over this with an atheist/agnostic, I always feel like I "lose"
Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.
Thanks in Advance
Can you be more specific? What are you debating? (evolution?) Why are you debating it in the first place when at least in Pope Shenouda's opinion, you can be Coptic Orthodox AND believe in evolution? What is the benefit of debating it, and who are these "experts" on evolution? Friends of yours who went to class? Or real scientists?
IMO, if you're debating that the earth is only 6000 years old, you are going to lose. I know others on here disagree with that, and that's fine, but speaking from a purely scientific POV, you WILL lose that argument because multiple independent fields of science all draw the same conclusions, and all do so independently of one another. So you cannot "win" that argument. However, the world is not just made up of scientific facts and laws, there are things like philosophy and purpose that science has not grasp on, and anyone who says it does, is being radically unscientific.
However, what is the reason THEY are debating YOU? To talk you out of belief, and faith? Why would they do that? By that I mean ASK them why they would want to destroy someones faith? I bet it's so they can "win" a debate. The problem is they're not being truly scientific by trying to WIN a debate. That's not what science is, and they aren't anymore qualified to preach evolution to you, than I am qualified to teach Arabic to my parents. (I speak ZERO Arabic)
I think the best thing for you to do is first, try to avoid these "debates", at least for awhile. because these people are probably your friends, and you're all simply just learning about this subject.
And two, read up on the subject for yourself. You need to be informed, and read books, articles and theological papers, and even the scientific understanding and then draw your own conclusions. I can tell you one thing, someone else can tell you another, but in the end it's up to you.
If your doubts are really coming down to this one single subject, then I think my previous posts are right on. There's nothing to debate, because you can be Orthodox and accept evolutionary theory. There is no gulf or separation here. Now you may in fact believe the earth is 6000 years old, and that's fine, many Orthodox do believe it, and many Church fathers did as well (though not all), but in the end, it shouldn't affect your faith. Because either view is acceptable. Only in certain forms of Protestantism are Christians required to take the beginning of Genesis literally. Unless you're of these certain protestant groups, there shouldn't be a problem.
Science is the study of WHAT happens in God's creation, but it says nothing about "why" it happens, or it's purpose. This is something modern science by it's very nature will never be able to do. And even the most "secular" people are on a quest for "enlightenment" and "knowledge" , that's why things like Kabalah (improperly removed from it's traditional religious context) is so popular with so many Americans, even secular Americans. Because science only answers question about one aspect of God's creation, the material, but not all aspects.
I really think you need to read a couple books on the subject. One I recommend is titled "Beauty and Unity in Creation" by Gayle Woloschak, (Minneapolis: Light and Life, 1996) — Primer on the relationship between evolutionary biology and Orthodoxy by a scientist. ISBN 1880971275
it's an easy read written by a biologist who is Orthodox.
A good article showing how St. Basil the Great didn't take Genesis literally, is The Six Dawns, which can be found here: http://www.zephyr.gr/stjohn/sixdawn1.htm
It's LONG, really a booklet, but it's free, and takes a more patristic and theological approach as opposed to scientific.
Fr. Athanasius Iskander is a respected priest and while I didn't listen to all of these lectures, I think he takes a more literal approach to Genesis, but doesn't rule out that the earth may be older than 6000 years. I think he also gets into "flood geology" which I don't particularly agree with, however it is probably more in line with what you might already believe. However I haven't listened to the whole thing, so I do not know how strong his science is. But I highly respect him and so that's why I posted.
In the end, if your doubts are more about general doubts, that's a different subject. But I don't think there are any magic bible verses that can make you believe. Just keep in mind many saints doubted, St. Thomas doubted, but sometimes we make too much of doubt. Are you still praying? Even if you have mental doubts, and yet you still pray, then you still have faith. Faith is more than a thought, it's an action. So even when mental doubts come to mind, don't give up. Push on through, and God will, I believe, reward you with greater faith on the other side.
ok, i had a quick look on the internet and found this: http://www.coloradocopts.org/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=207 the church seems to be nice (i don't know it) and the priest there has worked at one time in the diocese of my bishop, so i am sure he is very cool! there are some sermons in arabic and some in english God bless u brother
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=8079.msg103891#msg103891 date=1244342044] But guys, whenever I debate over this with an atheist/agnostic, I always feel like I "lose"
Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.
Thanks in Advance
Whenever I have doubts, I always go back to Zeitun. What happened at Zeitun in 1968 cannot be explained naturally. Several thousand eyewitnesses all report the same thing i.e. a luminous woman floating above the dome and various other things that happened once or twice like stars forming around her head and the smell of incense. Of all the thousands of witnesses (whether Christian, muslim or atheist) not ONE gives an account that is not supernatural. It got so big that even the Egyptian government got involved. So in the face of that overwhelming evidence, there are only two possibilities: Either it was a hoax, or it really was supernatural. I recently read an article about how a couple of Japanese students have invented a machine capable of producing a hologram. It takes TONNES of energy, and calling it a hologram is being generous, the best it can produce is few shining dots. 40 years after Zeitun, that is the best we can do. In 1968 in Egypt, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to project a 3 dimensional image of Mary that walked and moved atop the church LET ALONE make doves that materialise and dissappear and re-arrange the stars behind her head. The Egyptian Government searched the area thoroughly for any sort of projection device and found nothing.
There really is no rational, natural explanation for what happened there. I've brought that up several times in discussions. I've never heard a decent answer. Actually come to think of it, I've never got an answer at all, they've always just dodged the question.
[quote author=DimyanCoptic link=topic=8079.msg104035#msg104035 date=1244764787] EDIT: I WOULD LOVE if people would post links to Audio Lectures and Sermons about Weak Faith. Sorry if I'm bothing you, but I really need this right now. Reading the books and lectures by word isnt helping me too much for some reason.
GOD bless you all
The lectures I posted by Fr. Iskander are audio lectures, just in case you didn't realize.
For lectures about doubt/faith in general, try this link:
These were quick searches and I've only listened to maybe one or two, but this should get you on a good start. I suggest that if he's got any audio files there, listen to Fr. Anthony Messeh (sp?) as I think his speaking style, experience and his work with young people will be of great benefit to you in this area. He's quite energetic, but seems to have a real world experience which i think will be helpful to you.
Hope these help, and as others have said, you're not bothering us, hopefully we can help!
It's quite obvious that the devil is trying to destroy your faith... are you going to let him?
I know sometimes we all have doubts or despair or feel hopeless.. but we have to remember that God is the first one cheering us on in our race, followed by the saints. We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.
You must know in your heart that God is God and that He is working in your life. Think of an accident you had and you could have died, and yet, you live. Think of the times you were alone or depressed and God helped you and gave you strength and hope.
I know you said reading doesn't help you-- but please trying reading Confessions of St. Augustine. It is exactly what the title says- confessions. It is beautiful, although the beginning is a bit slow.
Also, here is a link for a few series of sermons. I haven't heard them all, but I always love Abouna Anthony's sermons. God bless and keep fighting:
For any doubters of faith, you might want to read the book "the case for faith" by Lee Strobel, i don't necessarily agree with every single thing it says, but it's a good defense of faith. Another amazing philosopher who's famous for his debates pro-theism is william lane craig. You'll find his video's on youtube. He wrote a lot of books (one i'm reading now is "reasonable faith") on this topic. He actually uses science to PROVE there HAS to be a God. Also from the moral point of view he builds a solid case for faith. Moreover, he debates tough issues such as evil, pain, suffering etc. A quick search on youtube should direct you towards his video's.
There is also this very strong proof (link below) that helped me and others. It has to be followed from part 1 to part 3 to understand it correctly. It is a very condensed presentation of a great book by a good scientist author. I also advise you to get yourself a copy of the originals if you can.
This serious research is based on the total impossibility of spontaneous occurrence of even the simplest strand of genetic code sequence (RNA or DNA).
Beware that some people when understanding this try to turn to another theory called "alien seeding" to support their logic. Their alien idea is inconsistent because aliens (if they exist) necessarily would be creatures that must had been created by a Creator.
Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.
If you memorize these 2 verses they will help a lot:
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” .. Psalm 53:1 Save me from all my transgressions; do not make me the scorn of fools. Psalm 39:8 Amen.
And this verse: .. “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” Mark 9:24
Comments
you may think no-one can imagine the trials you are going through, or that no-one has doubted like this.
in fact, many of the desert fathers (and mothers) went though testing times.
as i read your post and prayed, these words from the trisagion came to me (ith thalaath taqdeesaat):
holy God, holy mightly, holy immortal, who was born of the virgin, have mercy on us.
holy God, holy mightly, holy immortal, who was crucified for us, have mercy on us.
holy God, holy mightly, holy immortal, who rose from the dead and ascended in the heavens, have mercy on us.
glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit now and forever and unto the ages of all ages, amen.
oh, holy Trinity have mercy on us.
oh, holy Trinity have mercy on us.
oh, holy Trinity have mercy on us.
oh Lord, forgive us our sins.
oh Lord, forgive us our iniquities.
oh Lord, forgive us our trespasses.
i suggest you look the full version up in the ageya and meditate on this and repeat it, especially before sleeping.
i am also going through trials.
God exists.
i know it because He is here with me in this moment of my stress and lack of faith and lack of trust in His ability to deliver me from the current situation. He forgives me as i repent for this and confess to my spiritual father.
i know this because i have read of His power and love in His holy word and it makes sense.
i know this because i have seen His power and love in the lives of those around me.
i know this because i am so much stronger and more peaceful than when i was having smaller trials last year.
i know this because i saw the peace on the face of my friend when she accepted she was dying and passed peacefully into the arms of her redeemer.
i know this because the enemy is getting annoyed with me. if i was far from God, he wouldn't bother to hassle me.
i know this because every time i feel weak, God gives me something to hold onto.
i know this because last weekend in church we read those immortal words from john 16:33 - 'i have told you all these things that you will have peace in me. in this world you will have troubles, but, TAKE COURAGE FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD'
this has been true in my life for over 30 years, i pray today that you will also realise the truth of these words and rest in the spiritual arms of your loving God, father to the fatherless, friend of sinners and redeemer of the lost.
your sister in Christ
For me, whenever I am tempted with such thoughts, as a biologist, I contemplate on the many wonders and complexity of the human body and it gives me great comfort knowing that only one infinite God created this with his unlimited wisdom.
It may help to look around you in nature or anything else and contemplate on the greatness of how everything was created and interacts with each other.
But most important, do not be deceived or weakened because you are singled out by your friends
Pray pray and pray some more and God will help you
also, the pope always reminds us to ask God. So, ask God to give you faith - stand up to pray and say that faith comes from You Lord - remind God of his promises when he said,
One thing I want to add is that in our life there are moments we don’t feel the presence of God. Moments of doubting and struggling. Remember, the devil tempted Eve in the God’s ‘absence’. Even Jesus cried ‘My God, My God why have you forsaken me’ for he feels separated from God. So when we feel separated from God or feel His presence no more, let us remember the words “those who endure to the end will be saved”.
Dimyan, it is very natural to go up and down in our spiritual journey. Many of us have moments where we are strong (reading the bible, fasting, praying, going to church etc.) and moments we neglect our souls. But let us unceasingly seek God and hope in His word “seek and you shall find”.
May God guide us all to Himself
In Christ
Theophilus
Everyone, please .. I need help with my faith.
I'm reading every book possible to help me, I took out all of the secular music on my ipod, stopped watching bad shows, but I cant get back to the mind set that God exists, and Jesus Christ is God incarnated ..
i am stuggling strongly with religion, maybe it is becuase we are studying evolution in school, and everyone is singling me out.
Please help me
My friend, I've been to that place you are at now! First, I don't think you have to throw away all of your "secular music" and stop watching TV. (I mean unless you're talking about slasher films, and violence or sex ridden type music) Christ came to transfigure the world, and so that through us, we might offer the world back to God Sacramentally, not to take us out of it or ignore it. But of course I have no idea what you consider secular and bad, so you might be very well doing the proper thing.
Secondly, Evolution is NOT against God, God created the world through evolution. The Bible is not a science book, it is a spiritual book. I believe in evolution (though that's a poor phrase, no one says they "believe" in gravity, gravity simply is true, but for the sake of argument I'll use the term "believe").......so I believe in evolution, but this in no way conflicts with my belief in God or our Orthodox faith. The problem is a lot of teachers may not really understand what evolution is and is not, and many science books may give a false impression as to what it is and is not. That's a big topic, but trust me, there is NOTHING in evolutionary theory that conflicts with Orthodox Christianity. It's people's misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory says that can cause problems, and that is maybe what is happening with your school. Of course you're free to not believe in evolution as well, that's up to the individual, but once you know what evolution truly is, it in no way conflicts with our Orthodox Faith, IMO.
With that aside, I completely and fully understand what you're going through. I've been on the verge of atheism before as well; and I don't have any magic answers for you that "proves" God's existence. I think God is BEYOND existence, so "proving" God exists is a bit problematic. There are some really good books that give strong evidence though, the Case for Christ is supposed to be a good one, though I've never read it. Being a history buff, and an "armchair historian" I tend to take that route, and history always leads me back to Christianity, and the Orthodox Church, even in times of my most severe doubt.
Another thing to do is to pray. Even when I considered myself totally agnostic, I prayed.....as your saint to pray for you, or another saint, or the Theotokos. If you think you don't believe in the saints, then just ask God to guide you. If you don't think you believe in God, then say, "if you're real, help me".......prayer really does work.
I think it's important also to know the difference between doubt and flat out atheism, as they really are not the same thing. Perhaps you're just being too hard on yourself in the face of what "seems" to disprove the existence of God. If it really has to do with evolution, then try reading some books on the subject from scientists who accept evolution AND who believe in God. There have been quite a few books written by Orthodox Christians, and another one by a Protestant titled, "Thank God for Evolution"...(or something along those lines). There are other good ones by people who aren't even theists, but who explain the theory well enough and point out none of these things are in opposition to Christianity. (certainly not Catholic/Orthodox Christianity)
My saint is the Apostle Thomas, and I chose him for a reason, so I definitely understand what you're going through. He doubted, was skeptical, and yet, was also the first to say, "I'm willing to die with Him"......sometimes those who doubt the most, also have the greatest faith. (not that I'm saying that about myself)
Don't be too hard on yourself, and keep praying. I have a feeling things aren't as dim as you think they are.
Everyone, please .. I need help with my faith.
I'm reading every book possible to help me, I took out all of the secular music on my ipod, stopped watching bad shows, but I cant get back to the mind set that God exists, and Jesus Christ is God incarnated ..
i am stuggling strongly with religion, maybe it is becuase we are studying evolution in school, and everyone is singling me out.
Please help me
DimyanCoptic,
I think there is a simple truth to keep in mind that will help in this area greatly, and I like to present it in the form of a metaphor. If you consider a very young child there are two elements that are absolutely essential to their healthy development. They have to fully feel that they can trust and depend on their parents, and they need to have unstructured playtime so that they can figure out who they are and how they will think. To some, these may seem like two contradictory ideas, because often the unstructured playtime involves mistakes, accidents, skinned knees, stubbed toes etc. It is the parent's job to keep the two extremes in balance, to be caring enough to help when needed and wise enough to know when not to help too much.
From the point of view of the child the trust is an abstract thing. All they understand is the play and that (somehow) they are safe because their parents are always near-by. At their stage of development they don't understand the balance or the internal struggle of their parents, all they understand is that it is their special time to do whatever they want without the regulation of their parents.
I think science is mankind's "special playtime". It is a process of trial and error (and more error and more error . . .) by which we learn about God's creation and what it is and what we can do with it. The only important difference between my above metaphor and our relationship with God is that we are required to have some maturity in this matter and in order to have the feeling of trust to balance the feeling of independance that we exercise in "special playtime" we must offer our faith. The difficulty is that faith is trancendent. It can't be reeasoned or felt by the five senses it can only be felt through Spirit. This is something that may well be completely impossible to grasp intuitively, so please don't be discouraged it is something we all struggle with.
As far as evolutionists go, Science, by necessity, works only in the realm of things that are directly observable and therefore has no juristiction over any concept of God including His existence. In the realm of the purely cognitive that which can't be sensed is nonsense which leads people to only beieve in things that can be sensed. What they don't realize is that our very being, and our very ability to sense implies that there are things in thins universe that can't be sensed, so please don't be discouraged by them either.
My faith is that if God allowed us to persist indefinitely, our process of trial an error would (after an extreme duration of time) lead us to discover all of the truths in God's Word. As an example: God inspired Solomon to write "As a man thinketh so is he". The science of psychology was not founded for over 2 millenia, and the process of trial and error lead to a bunch of different conflicting ideas most of which lead scientists to believe that people's brains are hard-wired. So for the longest time scientists believed that 'a man thinks as he is' which is contrary to the teachings in Eccleiastes. It wasn't until around the seventies that scientists discovered that the brain is constantly in flux and that the "hard wiring" changes with practice and prolonged experience. Science eventually discovered what God told us to begin with.
Before our newest discovery, our best knowledge to work with was that the brain becomes hard-wired, and that was what we had to work with. I don't think anyone that made decisions based on that premise were being unethical, but if any scientist stepped outside of his jurisdiction then and said that the "facts" proved that Solomon didn't know what he was talking about and therefore there must be no God, he would look like a big fool now.
I think this applies to evolutionists now. I see nothing wrong with them saying, "our current best conclusions based on what we have observed over the last couple hundred years is this . . . " But the second that one of them starts making implications about things that we cannot observe (including God's existence), my respect for them goes down the toilet.
For me personally this includes things like macroevolution. Many good scientists believe and have evidence to show that our best indication is that species have evolved into other species. I think knowing our current stage of scientific knowledge is very good and important, but my faith is that, if we are here long enough, we will find that creatures were created individually.
Sorry for the long post, but this is a pretty big question, and very important if your faith is being shaken.
George
other than that difference, i think north star's post is important for you to read, because what matters is that your salvation and the existence of God does not hinge on you believing in evolution or not believing in it. i have met fine Christians who believe in evolution, including an anglican vicar and a baptist minister. when i studied it at school, i was just not very impressed with all the circular arguments, like we know how old the rocks are because of the level they are at in the ground and we know how old the levels of the ground are because of the different types of rock in them.
i could still happily take communion and work sharing the gospel together with an evolutionist, so don't feel you have to be 100% sure evolution theory is accurate or not at this stage.
i like the idea of science as 'special playtime', that's cool. you see God is above and beyond all these things. He created all the scientific laws, but He can also alter them, for example to perform miracles, or during the great flood.
we can never fully understand all of creation, we haven't got big enough brains. but if you read your text books a couple of times and take notes in class, you'll memorise enough to pass your exams and decide about the 'belief' aspect of it later.
if God wants you to be a professor of biology or a neurosurgeon, He'll give you the ability to look into all these things in more detail later.
for now, investigate your questions by reading the Bible and questioning your Christian friends (as you are doing) and look out for God showing Himself to you in the things around you.
we are praying :)
You cannot prove God exists through science and human logic. God created science and logic and is above it! That is not to say He is against it; He is above it! Also we have to realize that things do not appear out of thin air. For example: you do not see trees appearing out of nowhere without anyone planting seeds and watering them. There is always someone who goes and plants a seed in the ground and waters it. Bottom line is that there must be a creator.
Now I believe it was Saint Paul who said that our faith grows through reading the Bible. Do you read your Bible daily? Do you stop to think and analyze it by interpreting the church fathers while practicing the art of prayer? Do you also take the time to notice how each and every book in the Bible, though written by different authors of different periods, compliment each other? These things need to be taken into consideration so that you can not only strengthen your belief but strengthen your relationship with God. He is not a force but a Being!
And do not worry when you begin to doubt yourself...always refer to the story of Saint Athansius. When everyone else was willing to stray from the faith, he alone was the person to say "No." Some said he was crazy and that the whole world was against him, yet he replied "then I am against the world." Use these words as motivation.
God bless you
tony
I have to disagree, being an orthodox christian and believing in macro evolution does not go hand in hand. As orthodox christians we believe in micro evolution but not macro.
Well, you're free to not accept it, and I know most of my Orthodox friends I have also do not accept it. And that's fine. My point was simply that one CAN accept evolutionary theory, and still be an Orthodox Christian. I'm pretty positive Pope Shenouda III has said this and written this on many ocassions, though I don't have the references at hand.
The biggest problem with the theory has been mentioned by others, first secularized arguments that have some sort of anti-God agenda; two, the common belief that macro-evolution is "one animal turning into another animal" and three, that "humans evolved from apes"....the problem is those things are not true and are not what evolutionary theory explains. These (and many other common beliefs) are misconceptions but that's a different topic and not really important to the thread per se. Evolution is also not "survival of the fittest" as we mean today, rather it is those that are best adapted for a specific environment thrive, but not "survival of the fittest" which has pseudo Nazi undertones...(IMO)
And yes, there are some people with an agenda like Richard Dawkins and those guys who are "fundamentalist atheists" using science to "prove" their belief. Except science cannot be used to "prove" anything...true science simply is observation, testing, and drawing conclusions, and that's all. (for the most part, it's more complex than that but still that's the basis of it)
Also it's interesting that atheism is NOT a new thing, nor is the concept that the universe simply "came into existence by itself"....these are ancient philosophies, dating back 1000's of years, and the Church fathers knew much about them. Yet fathers like Basil the Great, and Augustine both wrote that the point of Genesis is that God created everything from nothing, not that he did it in 6 literal days. Augustine said in the City of God and some of his letters that if Christians insisted on taking Genesis literally, and it were ever proven some day in the future that the world was much older than 6 days, the pagans would laugh at us Christians for being so strict in our interpretation. (and Augustine DID interprete it literally, at least for part of his life, but accepted the possibility there was more to it than that)
Anyways, I only said what I did to show there is nothing to fear from evolution. I know it can be scary, especially when we're first exposed to evolution and usually a not quite so "kosher" version of evolutionary theory, but I just don't see how it can be contrary to our faith if taken in the proper context. With that said, most people I know would not agree with me, and many EO accept a 6 literal day of creation, and that's cool. One of my best friends does, and we joke about it and it doesn't come between us at all) Orthodox Judaism has a unique view as well, and in the end I guess it can work out (the earth was created with the appearance of age, or our science is simply not up to par yet) I have no doubt God COULD have done it in 6 days, and maybe He did. I have no problem with that, however having read up on the subject for years, and having formerly been a 6 literal day creationist for most of my Christian life, I don't think people should be losing their faith over evolution. It's just not right to watch people lose their faith over something that simply isn't necessary to lose one's faith over. Especially when the Church has said one can believe in evolution, be Orthodox, as long as you accept God created it all from nothing, and that Adam and Eve were real people created uniquely from the rest of creation.
As I said, I'm positive Pope Shenouda has written that, because he is the first Christian writer I ever read who actually said you could be both a Christian and accept evolution. I wish I had the reference for you, but alas I don't. (I read it years ago)
Of course, I completely agree, the earth might only be 6000 yrs old, and that's entirely possible, but in the end I think the only point that matters is that God did it, and HOW He did it is His business. But in the end, it's not that big a deal to me, and I could very well be wrong.
i have met fine Christians who believe in evolution, including an anglican vicar and a baptist minister. when i studied it at school, i was just not very impressed with all the circular arguments, like we know how old the rocks are because of the level they are at in the ground and we know how old the levels of the ground are because of the different types of rock in them.
LOL! See, that's the "not so kosher" teaching I was talking about... ;D Again the problem is we've either got uninformed people "teaching" evolution, or someone with some anti-religious agenda, neither are based on science but said person's own personal beliefs. Evolutionary theory will never be 100%, no science is ever 100% accurate, it's always growing and we're always learning more, even about such rock solid ideas like gravity. There's always more to learn, in that sense it's a bit like Theosis, a never ending growth towards God. :)
Absolutely! I hope I didn't give any impression that I thought God can't do something like alter or suspend the laws of the universe, everything is absolutely dependent upon him, and I have no problem with miracles etc. God is almighty and has no limits. Again, totally agree. If you ever read in a book, that science has it all figured out, give the book away, because it's terrible science. (in fact it would be best to not pass the bad science around to others, so maybe just shelve the thing) Absolutely. Whether one is accepts evolutionary theory or not, God can be seen within His creation. He is "everywhere present and filling all things" as one EO prayer goes. For me, I have a more full realization of God's presence since accepting evolution some years back, but that is not the way for everyone. And perhaps that's why it will never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Each person is different, and who knows, when (and if) we get to Heaven, God might surprise both sides and say something no one would expect like, "I created the universe in 2.35 seconds"...lol! In the end it doesn't matter, all that matters is He created it, and He sustains it.
thanks, brother, you confirmed my point that we don't have to totally agree on everything to be united in Christ :)
Exactly! And just to clarify, even though I accept evolutionary theory, I most certainly believe that it was simply the method God used for creation, and that His hand was always a part of the evolution of life. Just wanted to clarify that I do NOT think God simply planted a seed and it all happened by itself. Hopefully that makes sense. Theistic Evolution is usually the accepted term.
Anyways, you're right, these are issues IMO, where we can disagree and yet still be a part of the same fullness of Christ's Church. In the end what matters is Christ and faith, and that is what is at the core of this thread.
With that said, I want to apologize to the original poster for taking this thread slightly off topic. And I want to apologize to everyone else to whom I've given a bad impression to here. As I've contemplated upon this thread and the OP and the intent, I came to realize this morning that everyone here with their posts has taught me something very important, and that is what matters is faith, not the age of the universe, and not "how" God created it; but simple faith and trust in God. And you, and a couple others by your words and posts in this thread have made me realize that as of late I've been looking at things to much in the cerebral, too much in the mind, and trying to gain "knowledge", as opposed to just living the faith, living for Christ. I know no one here probably understands how this thread has affected me, but I just wanted to say that it has been a great balance for me, and a correction in Love. This probably makes no sense but I wanted to say thank you for all that.
Now to the original poster: this might not make any sense, but somehow this thread has helped ME in my faith. And hopefully it will help you. I still think in the end, that evolution, when understood correctly and explained correctly has ZERO affect on the Orthodox faith, or a general belief in God, with that said, it takes a lot of reading by good authors to get the grasp of that, and sadly I have a feeling your being exposed to poor science and poor explanation. In the end, remember, the age of the earth and even "evolution" is not new or novel, Darwin did not invent the theory, he simply applied it to observations he made, the Church fathers all knew of the theory (though like I said then it was a philosophy not a science) and so whatever conclusions you eventually come to in regards to this, realize that you are not alone. You have many saints and people praying for you. And as we've said, don't be too hard on yourself. Everyone goes through this at some point in their life and I believe you'll come through with a stronger faith than you went into this with.
from
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1506/trans-b.htm
"Faith/Doubt"
Mark 9:2-9
We human beings are a strange mixture of belief and doubt. We say we believe something, but there is always doubt present. I guess it is part of being human. The Bible says we see only in part now as through a dark glass. We can't understand everything in the world around us. So we are always questioning what we believe to be the truth. I guess faith and doubt are like two sides of a coin. Without one the other would be meaningless.
But thank God we still venture to believe despite our doubts. Even though we can't see God, some of us still believe that God exists. Despite all the evil in the world we still believe that God is in control and that God is good. If we do not admit however that we have doubts then we are fooling ourselves.
One day a man came to Jesus. He was a leper and wanted to be healed. Jesus asked him if he believed. He said, "Yes Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." He was honest with Jesus and we should follow his example. We need to admit that we are all a mixture of doubt and belief.
Jesus' disciples were no different. They believed and yet they doubted also. One day Jesus asked them who people were saying he was. They said, "Some say Elijah or John the Baptist come back." Then Jesus said, "Who do you say I am?" And Peter said, "You are the Messiah." He believed in Jesus and was the first disciples to say so out loud.
But then Jesus started saying that he must go to Jerusalem to be rejected and killed. Peter didn't like the sound of this. He probably began to doubt not only Jesus' divinity but his sanity as well. Mark says that Peter took Jesus aside and rebuked him. He didn't merely ask for a clarification of something he had trouble understanding. He rebuked Jesus and told him he was wrong. If Peter believed without a doubt that Jesus was the Messiah, he would have accepted whatever Jesus said as the Gospel truth. But he questioned what Jesus told him and doubted.
This incident demonstrates that Peter, the chief apostle, was a mixture of belief and doubt. Don't misunderstand. Peter did believe. He honestly believed that Jesus was the Messiah. But at the same time he doubted. He questioned the truth of Jesus' teaching when it didn't make perfect sense to him.
Peter and the other disciples had to live with this mixture of faith and doubt just as all humans do. So Jesus took them on a journey to help them grow in faith. It took six days of walking to reach the destination: a mountain. Then Jesus took three of the disciples: Peter, James and John up a mountain to pray. Some scholars believe that this mountain was Mt. Hebron. Mt. Hebron is 9200 feet up and its summit is always covered with snow.
So it was quite a hike to the top. At the top something happened. Jesus was transfigured. His clothes became an unearthly white and his face glowed. Moses and Elijah were standing there with him as a testimony to Jesus' holiness. Then a voice came from heaven and said, "This is my Beloved Son, do as he says."
I believe that this happened to confirm their faith. They believed that Jesus was the Messiah but at the same time they probably wondered if he was not mistaken about going to Jerusalem to die. But despite their doubt they followed Jesus to the mountain. They even hiked to the top of a high cold mountain. And God showed them that Jesus was the Messiah, and their faith was strengthened.
Like the disciples you and I are a mixture of belief and doubt. If we are honest with ourselves we can all join that leper in saying, "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." Even faithful people, like the apostle Peter, have doubts. "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief." That is the prayer of a true disciple. Anything less is a failure to be honest with ourselves and with God.
We all have doubts, and one of the main areas of doubt is that Jesus actually is the Son of God. Like Peter people say Jesus is the Messiah, but they doubt at the same time. Many people say they believe that Jesus is the son of God, but they have never committed their lives to him. They accept the historical premise that Jesus is God's Son. But they are unwilling to base their lives on that. Many who say they believe Jesus is the Son of God are unwilling to set aside the time to worship him on a regular basis. They believe, but not enough to give up a hour a week for study and worship. Or to give some time to him in prayer or service. But all of us have some level of doubt. Even those who have committed their lives fully to Christ have room to grow. No matter how deep our faith in Christ is, there are always new depths to discover.
And yet Jesus' sonship is at the cornerstone of our faith. Maybe that is why people have doubts about Jesus from time to time. After all if he was only a great moral teacher and not the only begotten Son of God, then his teachings are no more important than say Buddha's. There were many healers in Jesus day. If he was not God's son than he was just another healer. If he was not God's son than he could not have died for our sins and we would have to rely on our own moral ability and good works to save us. And we know no one is saved by works. Perhaps people doubt Jesus' divinity because it is so central to our faith.
We all have doubts. When you have doubts, just follow Jesus anyway. There are some people who believe they should just sit still until they get it all figured out. They say they will start going to church after they are finished reading the Bible and understand it. Or they won't make a commitment to Christ until they are free of all doubts. It'll never happen!
That's not the way Jesus works. When Jesus called Peter and the others, he didn't say come and I will explain everything to you then we will minister. He said, "Follow me and I will make you fish for people." Christians learn on their feet while they walk. Jesus believes in on-the-job training. Every Christian needs to take classes, but we also need to sign up for an internship. We must follow to learn and grow. If we try to learn it all then follow, we will never learn a thing.
Have you ever heard the saying, "If you want to have faith, live as if you had it." That doesn't mean that you should put on a religious show as if you had faith. It is saying that we should step out in faith especially when we doubt. Because it is only when we step out in faith that our faith is verified and our doubts are quieted.
Step out in faith like Peter, James and John. They doubted, yet they followed Jesus up that mountain and their faith was confirmed and strengthened. In the same way follow Jesus up the mountain. Even though it seems an uphill struggle and your doubts nag at you continue to step out in faith. And you will see for yourself that Jesus is the Beloved Son of God.
But guys, whenever I debate over this with an atheist/agnostic, I always feel like I "lose"
Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.
Thanks in Advance
Can you be more specific? What are you debating? (evolution?) Why are you debating it in the first place when at least in Pope Shenouda's opinion, you can be Coptic Orthodox AND believe in evolution? What is the benefit of debating it, and who are these "experts" on evolution? Friends of yours who went to class? Or real scientists?
IMO, if you're debating that the earth is only 6000 years old, you are going to lose. I know others on here disagree with that, and that's fine, but speaking from a purely scientific POV, you WILL lose that argument because multiple independent fields of science all draw the same conclusions, and all do so independently of one another. So you cannot "win" that argument. However, the world is not just made up of scientific facts and laws, there are things like philosophy and purpose that science has not grasp on, and anyone who says it does, is being radically unscientific.
However, what is the reason THEY are debating YOU? To talk you out of belief, and faith? Why would they do that? By that I mean ASK them why they would want to destroy someones faith? I bet it's so they can "win" a debate. The problem is they're not being truly scientific by trying to WIN a debate. That's not what science is, and they aren't anymore qualified to preach evolution to you, than I am qualified to teach Arabic to my parents. (I speak ZERO Arabic)
I think the best thing for you to do is first, try to avoid these "debates", at least for awhile. because these people are probably your friends, and you're all simply just learning about this subject.
And two, read up on the subject for yourself. You need to be informed, and read books, articles and theological papers, and even the scientific understanding and then draw your own conclusions. I can tell you one thing, someone else can tell you another, but in the end it's up to you.
If your doubts are really coming down to this one single subject, then I think my previous posts are right on. There's nothing to debate, because you can be Orthodox and accept evolutionary theory. There is no gulf or separation here. Now you may in fact believe the earth is 6000 years old, and that's fine, many Orthodox do believe it, and many Church fathers did as well (though not all), but in the end, it shouldn't affect your faith. Because either view is acceptable. Only in certain forms of Protestantism are Christians required to take the beginning of Genesis literally. Unless you're of these certain protestant groups, there shouldn't be a problem.
Science is the study of WHAT happens in God's creation, but it says nothing about "why" it happens, or it's purpose. This is something modern science by it's very nature will never be able to do. And even the most "secular" people are on a quest for "enlightenment" and "knowledge" , that's why things like Kabalah (improperly removed from it's traditional religious context) is so popular with so many Americans, even secular Americans. Because science only answers question about one aspect of God's creation, the material, but not all aspects.
I really think you need to read a couple books on the subject. One I recommend is titled "Beauty and Unity in Creation" by Gayle Woloschak, (Minneapolis: Light and Life, 1996) — Primer on the relationship between evolutionary biology and Orthodoxy by a scientist. ISBN 1880971275
it's an easy read written by a biologist who is Orthodox.
A good article showing how St. Basil the Great didn't take Genesis literally, is The Six Dawns, which can be found here:
http://www.zephyr.gr/stjohn/sixdawn1.htm
It's LONG, really a booklet, but it's free, and takes a more patristic and theological approach as opposed to scientific.
Another website is from an Antiochian priest:
http://antiochabouna.blogspot.com/2006/02/orthodoxy-and-creationism.html
And from a Russian deacon:
http://www.hvmla.org/library/evolution.html
I still cannot remember which book Pope Shenouda wrote about this subject in, but I'm trying to find it.
In the mean time, a Coptic POV is here:
http://www.stmaryscopticorthodox.ca/media/media_sermons/sermon_sci/sermon_sci.html
Fr. Athanasius Iskander is a respected priest and while I didn't listen to all of these lectures, I think he takes a more literal approach to Genesis, but doesn't rule out that the earth may be older than 6000 years. I think he also gets into "flood geology" which I don't particularly agree with, however it is probably more in line with what you might already believe. However I haven't listened to the whole thing, so I do not know how strong his science is. But I highly respect him and so that's why I posted.
In the end, if your doubts are more about general doubts, that's a different subject. But I don't think there are any magic bible verses that can make you believe. Just keep in mind many saints doubted, St. Thomas doubted, but sometimes we make too much of doubt. Are you still praying? Even if you have mental doubts, and yet you still pray, then you still have faith. Faith is more than a thought, it's an action. So even when mental doubts come to mind, don't give up. Push on through, and God will, I believe, reward you with greater faith on the other side.
http://www.coloradocopts.org/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=207
the church seems to be nice (i don't know it) and the priest there has worked at one time in the diocese of my bishop, so i am sure he is very cool!
there are some sermons in arabic and some in english
God bless u brother
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=search_result
try this
PLEASE you are not bothering anyone this is our purpose as brothers and sisters
I PROMISE YOU that we will not let you fall into atheism because we are here
ask me ANYTHING at all and i'll find it
i would love to be part of saving a spirit of God's child
everyone here is benefiting. we are benefiting because we are serving which also leads to learning; and you are benefiting because you are learning.
thus, not only should you thank us, but we should also thank you for providing us with the opportunity to serve.
thats why i like to contribute even it it's not much
Type doubt in search word
But guys, whenever I debate over this with an atheist/agnostic, I always feel like I "lose"
Guys, I read everyones post, but idk what to do anymore, please just give me something I can put in my mind when i have these doubts.
Thanks in Advance
Whenever I have doubts, I always go back to Zeitun. What happened at Zeitun in 1968 cannot be explained naturally.
Several thousand eyewitnesses all report the same thing i.e. a luminous woman floating above the dome and various other things that happened once or twice like stars forming around her head and the smell of incense. Of all the thousands of witnesses (whether Christian, muslim or atheist) not ONE gives an account that is not supernatural. It got so big that even the Egyptian government got involved.
So in the face of that overwhelming evidence, there are only two possibilities:
Either it was a hoax, or it really was supernatural.
I recently read an article about how a couple of Japanese students have invented a machine capable of producing a hologram. It takes TONNES of energy, and calling it a hologram is being generous, the best it can produce is few shining dots. 40 years after Zeitun, that is the best we can do. In 1968 in Egypt, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to project a 3 dimensional image of Mary that walked and moved atop the church LET ALONE make doves that materialise and dissappear and re-arrange the stars behind her head. The Egyptian Government searched the area thoroughly for any sort of projection device and found nothing.
There really is no rational, natural explanation for what happened there. I've brought that up several times in discussions. I've never heard a decent answer. Actually come to think of it, I've never got an answer at all, they've always just dodged the question.
Hope that helps
EDIT: I WOULD LOVE if people would post links to Audio Lectures and Sermons about Weak Faith. Sorry if I'm bothing you, but I really need this right now. Reading the books and lectures by word isnt helping me too much for some reason.
GOD bless you all
The lectures I posted by Fr. Iskander are audio lectures, just in case you didn't realize.
For lectures about doubt/faith in general, try this link:
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=136&Itemid=26
I don't know if it will be a direct link, but there are 4 or 5 lectures there about doubt, faith etc...
Another link to more is here:
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=48&Itemid=26&limit=50&limitstart=0&order=hits&dir=ASC
These were quick searches and I've only listened to maybe one or two, but this should get you on a good start. I suggest that if he's got any audio files there, listen to Fr. Anthony Messeh (sp?) as I think his speaking style, experience and his work with young people will be of great benefit to you in this area. He's quite energetic, but seems to have a real world experience which i think will be helpful to you.
Hope these help, and as others have said, you're not bothering us, hopefully we can help!
It's quite obvious that the devil is trying to destroy your faith... are you going to let him?
I know sometimes we all have doubts or despair or feel hopeless.. but we have to remember that God is the first one cheering us on in our race, followed by the saints. We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.
You must know in your heart that God is God and that He is working in your life. Think of an accident you had and you could have died, and yet, you live. Think of the times you were alone or depressed and God helped you and gave you strength and hope.
I know you said reading doesn't help you-- but please trying reading Confessions of St. Augustine. It is exactly what the title says- confessions. It is beautiful, although the beginning is a bit slow.
Also, here is a link for a few series of sermons. I haven't heard them all, but I always love Abouna Anthony's sermons. God bless and keep fighting:
http://www.orthodoxsermons.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=21&Itemid=26
Another amazing philosopher who's famous for his debates pro-theism is william lane craig. You'll find his video's on youtube. He wrote a lot of books (one i'm reading now is "reasonable faith") on this topic. He actually uses science to PROVE there HAS to be a God. Also from the moral point of view he builds a solid case for faith. Moreover, he debates tough issues such as evil, pain, suffering etc. A quick search on youtube should direct you towards his video's.
Try this for a starter!
Is Life Without God Absurd?
It has to be followed from part 1 to part 3 to understand it correctly.
It is a very condensed presentation of a great book by a good scientist author.
I also advise you to get yourself a copy of the originals if you can.
This serious research is based on the total impossibility of spontaneous occurrence of even the simplest strand of genetic code sequence (RNA or DNA).
Beware that some people when understanding this try to turn to another theory called "alien seeding" to support their logic. Their alien idea is inconsistent because aliens (if they exist) necessarily would be creatures that must had been created by a Creator.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/beginning-was-information/beginning-was-information
Hope this helped.
GBU
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” .. Psalm 53:1
Save me from all my transgressions; do not make me the scorn of fools. Psalm 39:8
Amen.
And this verse:
.. “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” Mark 9:24
GBU