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PROVE IT!

epshiriepshiri
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues
Ok,

I'm gonna try to get striaght to the point here,

Anecdote:

"  A guy walks up to you (friend or someone you know), says to you, hey Abe (my nickname), you know you're a Christian

yes?

So you would know about god

I hope so...

Good. Then can you proove that he is there and exists.

At this point 'Abe' blushes, begins to persperate, and claims he has a musical instrumental lesson and hurries off in the opposite diretion to the music department  "

What could I have done, given him the URLs to thousands of homilies on the topic - not a chance he will watch them all - that will just convince him that I don't know and that my reaction is trying to hide the 'truth', in his eyes.

I could have desperately clawed at distant memories of miracles which had been told to me before - errm... no

I could have brought one of my parents most prized VCR tapes filming the extraction of a demon through use of holy water - on your bike mate

I could have gone for the impressionist method using 'Bruce Lee' type philosophies, which he would not understand or try to stab holes out of  - they don't really work well

I am requesting a very short reply from an expert on the topic or someone of ecclesiastic rank to reply

- - - SHORT AND CONCISE - - -

there, i got to the point, eventually.




 

Comments

  • Unknown
    There is a sad truth that must be faced: in most cases you simply will not be able to convince him. You may read every "proof of God" that you can find, all the way from Aristotle's First Mover to Thomas Aquinas' Five Proofs to modern books on the subject; but when you lay all such theories out to the atheist standing before you-no matter how logical and convincing they are-he will have an automatic rejection mechanism in his head that will be able to find fault with every single one of your proofs. This is not to say that such proofs are useless. They are useful and beneficial when used in their proper place. But the point here is that since he has from the outset decided that God does not exist, all such proofs will turn out simply not good enough for him-especially if he must rearrange the shape of his whole life in order to accept them.

    So what is the only really effective means of convincing an atheist that God is present? By showing forth the type of life that has been transformed by His touch. When an atheist sees the unmistakable marks of Christian compassion in your life, forgiveness, generosity, honesty, nobility, faith-such things that the world is for the most part devoid of-he will begin to inquire into the source of these virtues. And once he finds that the source is Christianity, he very likely will begin taking the Christian religion seriously. Conversely, if all he sees in you is the same old nature and the same worldly behavior that he sees in his secular colleagues, your efforts to change him will be completely in vain.

    Once he sees that your life is drastically different, "set apart" from the rest of the unbelieving throngs, then and only then will there be sowed in his heart the tiny seed of potential faith. And of course, the life you lead should never be Christ-like just to convince an atheist you know. Your life should be Christ-like precisely because Christ has taken hold of your heart before ever meeting the atheist: you have to be Christ's servant the very start.

    HGBY
  • tonedawgtonedawg
    [quote author=Taishory link=topic=8029.msg103444#msg103444 date=1243009821]
    There is a sad truth that must be faced: in most cases you simply will not be able to convince him. You may read every "proof of God" that you can find, all the way from Aristotle's First Mover to Thomas Aquinas' Five Proofs to modern books on the subject; but when you lay all such theories out to the atheist standing before you-no matter how logical and convincing they are-he will have an automatic rejection mechanism in his head that will be able to find fault with every single one of your proofs. This is not to say that such proofs are useless. They are useful and beneficial when used in their proper place. But the point here is that since he has from the outset decided that God does not exist, all such proofs will turn out simply not good enough for him-especially if he must rearrange the shape of his whole life in order to accept them.

    So what is the only really effective means of convincing an atheist that God is present? By showing forth the type of life that has been transformed by His touch. When an atheist sees the unmistakable marks of Christian compassion in your life, forgiveness, generosity, honesty, nobility, faith-such things that the world is for the most part devoid of-he will begin to inquire into the source of these virtues. And once he finds that the source is Christianity, he very likely will begin taking the Christian religion seriously. Conversely, if all he sees in you is the same old nature and the same worldly behavior that he sees in his secular colleagues, your efforts to change him will be completely in vain.

    Once he sees that your life is drastically different, "set apart" from the rest of the unbelieving throngs, then and only then will there be sowed in his heart the tiny seed of potential faith. And of course, the life you lead should never be Christ-like just to convince an atheist you know. Your life should be Christ-like precisely because Christ has taken hold of your heart before ever meeting the atheist: you have to be Christ's servant the very start.

    HGBY


    Good answer :-)
  • epshiriepshiri
    thanks i suppose

    (I said concise... grumble grumble...)
  • coolboy1000gcoolboy1000g
    I read this story recently, dont know how much it relates but I hope it helps.
    "A guy goes to the barber to get a haircut and they are good friends, the barber tells him that I dont think God exists, look at all the evil in the world, disasters and violence. The guy, getting the haircut, chooses not to reply because he cannot prove that God exists and he doesnt want to make a problem with his barber. So he gets the haircut and leaves with sadness on his face. While walking outside, he looks and sees one person with his hair messy, long, dirty, and never been taken care of, so he goes back to the store and tells the barber that barbers dont exist, so the guy said Ofcourse they do exist I just gave you a haircut. so his friend told him if barbers exist then why do a lot of people have bad hair that was never taken care of?"
    This is exactly what some people do, they say God doesnt exist because of all the evil in the world. God exists, but when people stop going to God for guidance and help, this is when all the evil exists. Same when people stop going to the barber.
    Pray for me
  • ArchdeaconArchdeacon
    Tell him, "If God's existence could be proved in such a short and concise answer, then you wouldn't be standing here asking me [Abe] that question."
  • Unknown
    Hello epshiri,

    This short concise story illustrates the idea of the presence of God:
    (pray that God guide him to deduce the conclusion)

    A person walking in the countryside sees things one expects would be there like grass, trees, fruits, flowers, cows, goats, birds and etc.

    While walking he finds a table with a big nice apple pie on its top.

    What is the reaction?
    He will immediately look around trying to spot WHO has left this nicely made pie.
    He can't see who did the pie, yet he is sure someone must have prepared it.
    It simply could not occur by chance alone.

    In the same logic of thought, God exists: God has created everything in nature.

    This simple story can be adapted to many things made by man.
    You can tell it as it is or pick something that suits your friend's area of interest.

    Hope this helped.
    GBU
  • socoolbishoysocoolbishoy
    if God does not exist... then explain

    Saint Mary in Zaitoun...  have him read about it
    the saints whose bodies do not decay with growing nails and hair, and enough blood to make a blood transfusion?!  (i got Mormon "evangelist" by that one)

    look at the wonders in our church, and elaborate on it, and have them also elaborate on it!


    Pray that God may give me peace of heart,
    akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
  • coolboy1000gcoolboy1000g
    How can you prove something unlimited with our very limited mind? we are finite and seek to understnad God the infinite. We dont understand everything and I am sure we all agree on that, science and every branch of studies have not fully understood how the earth or its inhabitants work. Everyday we discover new facts that completely change the way we think. So without fully understanding everything that God created, with our materialistic minds, we wont be able to comprehend God and his wisdom, so how can we prove his existence. It is like solving a physics problem without having all the information and equations needed; there is no way we can find the right answer until we get more info.
    However, our souls can comprehend the mysteries of God better, because they are not of this world, they can understand the heavenly matters. That is why when the saints got closer to God, they were given wisdom and their eyes were opened to see what our own eyes cannot see.
    May God give us all guidance to understand
    pray for me
  • ChuckChuck

    As the saying goes, those who do believe need no proof, and for those who do not believe, no amount of proof is sufficient. Or to put it into Biblical terms, as Jesus Himself said, if they do not believe Moses and prophets, then they won't believe even if a man rises from the dead.

    There are no quick and concise answers to give to this question, if there was, someone LONG before now would have thought of it. The existence of God encompasses so many different fields of human thought and study; science, religion, philosophy, history, anthropology, mysticism (part of religion) etc....

    People who claim they don't believe in God because there is no "proof" either haven't studied and read very much on this subject, or no amount of proof would ever be good enough for them. Yet what does one mean by "proof"? There is no "proof", but there is a lot of evidence in favor of God's existence. But "proof"? With absolute proof we wouldn't need faith. But then even with absolutely proof, it might not be absolute for some people.

    I know you want something quick, but the very nature of the question almost certainly requires something in depth.

    However, there is a line from a movie, which is based on a book, and in the movie a scientist is talking to a theologian, and the scientist asks this very question, about God, His existence and her needing PROOF on a material and scientific level.

    The theologian, knowing her personally, and how her dad died when she was still a child, doesn't debate with her, but responds with this phrase,

    "Ellie, did you love you're dad?"

    She replies, "yes, of course"

    The theologian then asks, "prove it"

    She's stunned and cannot answer, because she cannot prove such a thing from the modern scientific method. However she "knows" she's loved her dad, yet all anyone can ever do is take her word for it.

    That's probably the shortest most to the point exchange I've ever heard on the subject. Yes it's just a movie, but I think the message is right on. Yes, it's a little philosophical, but so is the question. The question itself is philosophical and not scientific.

    There is no single answer to the question because people doubt God's existence for MANY different reasons. So in the end, whatever answer you'd give, might depend on that person's reason for asking it.






  • Unknown
    As many before me have stated I am sure Christianity was not built on proofs but faith. When the Apostles went to preach the Word they did not take proof with them but there faith. Some miracles have no proof and God is the ultimate miracle because He is not your normal guy that you see He is God. This reminded me of the story of Lazarus and the rich man when the rich man after he had departed asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his family so that they might believe but Abraham answered him saying "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."
    You are to believe in God meaning it is by faith not by proofs. As for your friend there is no concise answer because God is not short and concise he is infinite. Let him as some have said try to prove how the world was created. He will have no proof but that it just happened, which makes more since, that someone made everything or that trees popped out of the ground. ;D
  • coolboy1000gcoolboy1000g
    North star,
    I really like your answer, thank you
  • beshoyrmbeshoyrm
    Well, ask him how he thinks we got here.
    If he answers evolution you can simply tell him this....The chances of life forming spontaneously from evolution is about the same chance as a tornado sweeping through a junkyard and constructing a fully functional 747...its just illogical. (if he requests a source the guy who came up with this is name is Sir Fred Hoyle). Anyways, not only is it illogical, but it defeats the Borels Law which states if the probability of something is less than 1 x 10^53, it cannot be attributed to chance...written out the number would be  10,0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000...Therefore, by taking Borels Law into consideration its impossible.

    Now, if he asks you how God exists if there is evil and suffering the world, its a simple answer. God made us to have a relationship with us, to love us. You cannot make anyone love you by force, otherwise it is not true love. So when God made Adam he gave him freewilll so that he can love God and God can love him. Had God made us loving him from the start, that takes away our freewill and we will be like robots.

    I think the last thing you should leave anyone who questions Gods existance is this. If God does not exist, and your right, you don't lose anything...but if he does exist, which there is evidence for, and you live life believing that He does not, you have lost EVERYTHING.

    I tried to keep it short, giving you the most popular feedback i recieve from people who are not Christian that I speak to...I hope it helps somewhat.

    In Christ,
    Beshoy
  • Unknown
    The story I posted above had the intention to help your friend think and understand that what we see in nature we consider as a natural phenomenon: we take it for granted.
    Yet if we carefully examine for example, living creatures, we will realize the extreme complexity of the design, implementation and interactions of every external and internal structures from large parts down to inside the cell level.
    Someone extremely wise scientifically must have designed these technologically advanced structures and shapes, made them, brilliantly organized their interactivity and put them together in one step so they started to function, hold on together in harmony and when it grows up to be able to reproduce the whole thing from a single fertilized cell. (All these explanations are oversimplified).

    Here is another guiding subject:

    A computer is manufactured of complex hardware parts, mainly the MB, the processor, the HD and the memories - simplified.
    Some hi tech engineers must design the MB and all other parts in the circuit.
    Each PC parts are manufactured in many complex steps according to the engineers' designs and plans, then carefully soldered together.
    No part can ever produce itself by itself from its raw materials.

    The PC will be a dead thing if it has a faulty design or a faulty production.
    It is a dead thing if it is not equipped with a suitable processor to organize its circuity.
    It is a dead thing if it does not perform any pre-programmed instructions from boot start.
    It is also a dead thing if it is not supplied with power or an appropriate energy source.
    A computer can never generate or write its first run program on its own.

    Hope this helped.
    GBU
  • Unknown
    Please see also the link I posted here.
    http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=8079.msg104093#msg104093

    GBU
  • sodr2sodr2
    Here's my little two cents:

    Religious conviction doesn't come by evidence alone, but a willingness to believe.

    The Bible says that those who do not listen to Moses and the prophets will not be convinced by anything else, even if someone were to rise from the dead.

    Atheists have made the hidden refusal to believe.

    -----
    Oops, lol... Forgive me if I'm not an expert on the topic or someone of "ecclesiastic rank."
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